What do we see to the left of "Fedora Man on the Island" in the Wiegman clip?

[Steve Barber]

   Steve - Thanks for posting this photo. The car we see on the Bottom (L),  parked on the TSBD side of the Elm St Extension, is the same car that is mistakenly being cited as a car parked alongside the Island. And this includes the (L) rear tail light of this same car being mistakenly "bulls-eye'd" as being attached to a car parked alongside the Island. This photo, along with the National Geographic "Manhunt" film footage showing this same car from the rear, makes clear what we are seeing on the Wiegman Film. We are seeing a parked car on the TSBD side of the Elm St Ext.

  So, the car in the photo (which I have added a red arrow pointing to) is the car in question, and you're stating that it is parked against the northernmost curb directly in front of the TSBD-not against the curb that forms the peninsula where the traffic light, lamp post, and highway signs are situated? Is this correct?

[Tom Graves]

Does this photo help at all? 

Well, that's definitely the "Abandoned Getaway Car," a 1958 Pontiac Bonneville.

Whoever took this photo was standing a bit farther to the left than Wiegman was sitting in his camera car at the 1:46 mark of his film as presented frame-by-frame, below.

Question: Is the white car in the background the same car that can be said to visually "merge" with rear half or so of the "Abandoned Getaway Car" at that 1:46 mark in the Wiegman film and in the frames near it?

[Steve Barber]

Here's the uncropped photo I posted:

[Royell Storing]

  You're welcome, Charles.  Glad I could add some help.

 So, the car in the photo (which I have added a red arrow pointing to) is the car in question, and Royell is stating that it is parked against the northernmost curb directly in front of the TSBD-not against the curb that forms the peninsula where the traffic light, lamp post, and highway signs are situated?

   NO! To the (L) of that Red Arrow is the car I referenced being "mistakenly" ID'd as being parked alongside the Island on the Wiegman Film. Your Red Arrow is pointing to the "getaway" car which is parked alongside the Island in a clearly posted "NO PARKING At Any Time" zone. The "NO PARKING..." sign is attached to the Street Light Pole directly in front of the "getaway" car. And the "getaway" car just sat there for 3+ hrs. It had been abandoned.

[Royell Storing]

Well, that's definitely the "Abandoned Getaway Car," a 1958 Pontiac Bonneville.

Whoever took this photo was standing a bit farther to the left than Wiegman was sitting in his camera car at the 1:46 mark of his film as presented frame-by-frame, below.

Question: Is the white car in the background the same car that can be said to visually "merge" with rear half or so of the "Abandoned Getaway Car" at that 1:46 mark in the Wiegman film and in the frames near it?

   The car we see at Wiegman 1:46 is the same car to the (L) of the "getaway" car on the photo that Steve Barber posted. It helps mentally if you line things up with the Corvair which is parked on the TSBD side of the street. Inspector Sawyer's car, (which Amos Euins was loaded into) was parked behind this same Corvair. For perspective purposes, the photog taking the Barber photo had to be standing on Houston St.

[James Hackerott]

In the Darnell clip, taken at a very similar angle and only seconds later, it appears that a police officer runs down the middle of the Elm Street Extension. Here are a couple of frames that seem to me to show that officer (blue arrow) is in front of the roofline (yellow arrow) of a car parked on the TSBD side of the street. As seems to be typical of these exercises there is a fly in the ointment (lady in light colored scarf) muddying up the view. But I think these two frames might show what I am submitting.








I believe that if James’ image were to be the case (the roofline we see is on a car on the island side of the Elm Street Extension) then the police officer would be partially hidden behind that roofline.




If anyone can do better with the Darnell clip frames, please do and show us the results.

I have some clear Couch frames handy that show Officer Smith running down the extension. I think Couch and Darnell were filming with similar camera heights. When I model that scene with the officer running down the center of the extension it does seem he would have been partially masked by the roofline. I'll have to search some for equivalent Darnell frames. Thanks for your input in this topic.

[Charles Collins]

  You're welcome, Charles.  Glad I could add some help.

 So, the car in the photo (which I have added a red arrow pointing to) is the car in question, and Royell is stating that it is parked against the northernmost curb directly in front of the TSBD-not against the curb that forms the peninsula where the traffic light, lamp post, and highway signs are situated?

No Steve, I believe that Royell claims that the car you drew a red arrow pointing at is not yet there in the Weigman footage but is traveling towards that spot and doesn’t show up until about 20-seconds later in the Darnell footage.

 My opinion is that it actually is there in the Wiegman footage but is mostly hidden by the crowd on the island and Elm Street. There is either an optical illusion that has fooled me and some others or I am simply wrong. I will try to show it to you in the following images. Royell apparently doesn’t see anything on the island side of Elm Street in the Wiegman footage. While I think I am seeing two different cars, James Hackerott apparently thinks there is only one car and believes it is 5.5 feet further west than I think it is.

In the following image I have drawn a yellow outline of where the right rear taillight bumper appear to be to me. If you look back at the unmarked up photo, please notice that the odd shape of the reflection of the sun on the car on the TSBD side of Elm Street Extension is similar to the taillight/bumper of the car on the island side.




The following image is from the Wiegman film and is the one we are discussing. I added a yellow outline of what appears to me and some others to be the right rear taillight & bumper (similar to what I outlined on the photo you provided). I think the car on the other side of Elm Street Extension is a different one due to the different angles. However, I believe the concept is still the same.




I know it is difficult to “unsee” something like this once you believe in what it appears to be to you. We apparently have three different interpretations that each one firmly believes in.

[Royell Storing]

No Steve, I believe that Royell claims that the car you drew a red arrow pointing at is not yet there in the Weigman footage but is traveling towards that spot and doesn’t show up until about 20-seconds later in the Darnell footage.

 My opinion is that it actually is there in the Wiegman footage but is mostly hidden by the crowd on the island and Elm Street. There is either an optical illusion that has fooled me and some others or I am simply wrong. I will try to show it to you in the following images. Royell apparently doesn’t see anything on the island side of Elm Street in the Wiegman footage. While I think I am seeing two different cars, James Hackerott apparently thinks there is only one car and believes it is 5.5 feet further west than I think it is.

In the following image I have drawn a yellow outline of where the right rear taillight bumper appear to be to me. If you look back at the unmarked up photo, please notice that the odd shape of the reflection of the sun on the car on the TSBD side of Elm Street Extension is similar to the taillight/bumper of the car on the island side.




The following image is from the Wiegman film and is the one we are discussing. I added a yellow outline of what appears to me and some others to be the right rear taillight & bumper (similar to what I outlined on the photo you provided). I think the car on the other side of Elm Street Extension is a different one due to the different angles. However, I believe the concept is still the same.




I know it is difficult to “unsee” something like this once you believe in what it appears to be to you. We apparently have three different interpretations that each one firmly believes in.

   Regarding "interpretation" of what we are seeing on the Wiegman still frame above, we can clearly see between the legs of the people standing on the (L) of the traffic signal pole. We can easily see the street behind them. If this 17.5 Foot long "getaway" car was already parked there, we would see traces of this long car between their legs/behind them.  And that 17.5 Feet of car would be stretching from the Traffic Signal Pole back toward the railroad yard. That is a long, long, car. People have a tendency to always be looking at eye level/head level. LOOK DOWN. LOOK toward the ground behind these people on the Wiegman Film. There is Nothing behind them. No "getaway" car. Not Yet!