JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
The best evidence Ferrie and Clay Shaw were close acquaintences
Gerry Down:
--- Quote from: Tom Graves on January 26, 2026, 08:17:03 PM ---Clay Shaw was 6' 4". If Pena had seen him, I think he would have mentioned that fact.
--- End quote ---
Pena says he saw Shaw and Ferrie together. Not that he saw either one with Oswald.
Lance Payette:
Well, let's see, Oswald, Ferrie and Shaw all frequented Pena's bar. Pena also saw Oswald at "Pedro's Restaurant" 10-12 times. Ferrie knew Shaw very well, he knew Bringuier very well, and he knew Sergio Arcacha Smith very well. Pena knew Oswald was an FBI informant because they both reported to Warren DeBrueys. He saw Oswald in the company of DeBrueys as well as in the company of Customs and INS officials in his bar. And that's just for starters.
John Armstrong's file on Pena, from which I borrowed some of the above: https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/new-orleans-witnesses/705794.
If you occupy the Garrison Wing of Conspiracy World, I suppose this seems credible. To me, not so much. Or rather, not at all.
I said on another thread that the "CT Oswald" apparently had 72 hours a day to in order to do his CT stuff that those closest to him knew nothing about, because we have a pretty idea of what he was doing in the 24 hours available to rest of us. Ditto with Clay Shaw. Having now digested Carpenter's almost absurdly detailed biography of Shaw, I find the notion of him and Ferrie entering the Habana Bar together completely comical. Due to their gay proclivities, Ferrie may have occasionally been in unknowing proximity to Shaw, but there is no way Shaw was bar-hopping with him.
God knows what Pena's game was, but he's one of those familiar (to me, anyway) characters who is just "too good to be true." They pop up like moles (see what I did there? :D) in all area of weirdness, from Roswell to the JFKA. They never have the sense to tone down their bombshells to a level of plausibility.
Anyway, read Carpenter's book and you will both (1) know more about Shaw than you probably want to know, and (2) be pretty damn certain he had no time or inclination for "JFKA stuff." He's right up there with Ruth Paine on the Mount Rushmore of CT-maligned decent folks.
Gerry Down:
--- Quote from: Lance Payette on January 26, 2026, 08:32:24 PM ---Well, let's see, Oswald, Ferrie and Shaw all frequented Pena's bar. Pena also saw Oswald at "Pedro's Restaurant" 10-12 times. Ferrie knew Shaw very well, he knew Bringuier very well, and he knew Sergio Arcacha Smith very well. Pena knew Oswald was an FBI informant because they both reported to Warren DeBrueys. He saw Oswald in the company of DeBrueys as well as in the company of Customs and INS officials in his bar. And that's just for starters.
John Armstrong's file on Pena, from which I borrowed some of the above: https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/new-orleans-witnesses/705794.
If you occupy the Garrison Wing of Conspiracy World, I suppose this seems credible. To me, not so much. Or rather, not at all.
I said on another thread that the "CT Oswald" apparently had 72 hours a day to in order to do his CT stuff that those closest to him knew nothing about, because we have a pretty idea of what he was doing in the 24 hours available to rest of us. Ditto with Clay Shaw. Having now digested Carpenter's almost absurdly detailed biography of Shaw, I find the notion of him and Ferrie entering the Habana Bar together completely comical. Due to their gay proclivities, Ferrie may have occasionally been in unknowing proximity to Shaw, but there is no way Shaw was bar-hopping with him.
God knows what Pena's game was, but he's one of those familiar (to me, anyway) characters who is just "too good to be true." They pop up like moles (see what I did there? :D) in all area of weirdness, from Roswell to the JFKA. They never have the sense to tone down their bombshells to a level of plausibility.
Anyway, read Carpenter's book and you will both (1) know more about Shaw than you probably want to know, and (2) be pretty damn certain he had no time or inclination for "JFKA stuff." He's right up there with Ruth Paine on the Mount Rushmore of CT-maligned decent folks.
--- End quote ---
Pena never suggests Shaw had anything to do with the JFK assassination. He simply states Shaw and Ferrie used come into his bar together.
Gerry Down:
--- Quote from: Lance Payette on January 26, 2026, 08:32:24 PM ---Well, let's see, Oswald, Ferrie and Shaw all frequented Pena's bar. Pena also saw Oswald at "Pedro's Restaurant" 10-12 times. Ferrie knew Shaw very well, he knew Bringuier very well, and he knew Sergio Arcacha Smith very well. Pena knew Oswald was an FBI informant because they both reported to Warren DeBrueys. He saw Oswald in the company of DeBrueys as well as in the company of Customs and INS officials in his bar. And that's just for starters.
John Armstrong's file on Pena, from which I borrowed some of the above: https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/new-orleans-witnesses/705794.
If you occupy the Garrison Wing of Conspiracy World, I suppose this seems credible. To me, not so much. Or rather, not at all.
I said on another thread that the "CT Oswald" apparently had 72 hours a day to in order to do his CT stuff that those closest to him knew nothing about, because we have a pretty idea of what he was doing in the 24 hours available to rest of us. Ditto with Clay Shaw. Having now digested Carpenter's almost absurdly detailed biography of Shaw, I find the notion of him and Ferrie entering the Habana Bar together completely comical. Due to their gay proclivities, Ferrie may have occasionally been in unknowing proximity to Shaw, but there is no way Shaw was bar-hopping with him.
God knows what Pena's game was, but he's one of those familiar (to me, anyway) characters who is just "too good to be true." They pop up like moles (see what I did there? :D) in all area of weirdness, from Roswell to the JFKA. They never have the sense to tone down their bombshells to a level of plausibility.
Anyway, read Carpenter's book and you will both (1) know more about Shaw than you probably want to know, and (2) be pretty damn certain he had no time or inclination for "JFKA stuff." He's right up there with Ruth Paine on the Mount Rushmore of CT-maligned decent folks.
--- End quote ---
I think it's quiet plausible the two could have known each other. They were both well known individuals. Shaw being the director of the trade mart and Ferrie being an airline pilot, head of a cadet group and was generally viewed as a well read interesting guy who had parties at his house. Shaw and Ferrie were two well known individuals in the city, and both members of the gay community. Shaw would probably find that Ferrie was one of the few people who could relate to him on an intellectual level.
Lance Payette:
--- Quote from: Gerry Down on January 26, 2026, 08:57:58 PM ---I think it's quiet plausible the two could have known each other. They were both well known individuals. Shaw being the director of the trade mart and Ferrie being an airline pilot, head of a cadet group and was generally viewed as a well read interesting guy who had parties at his house. Shaw and Ferrie were two well known individuals in the city, and both members of the gay community. Shaw would probably find that Ferrie was one of the few people who could relate to him on an intellectual level.
--- End quote ---
Every teller of tall tales has to have some degree of superficial plausibility to his tale or it goes nowhere. I won't bore you with the litany of really plausible-sounding Roswll witnesses whose lies and exagerrations (together, usually, with some kernel of truth) were finally exposed after extensive research, sometimes spanning many years, by diligent investigators like Kevin Randle (who, somewhat like the interpid Factoid Buster here, describes himself as "chaser of footnotes" because that's often how you finally expose the lies). After they are exposed, the True Believers whose theories hinge on their tales still insist, "No, he was the real deal!"
Ferrie was an interesting and bizarre character. He and Shaw shared gay proclivities. They were both in New Orleans at the same time. Voila, superficial plausibility, and off we go.
Shaw was not starved for sexual or intellectual companionship. He had REALLY significant friends and contacts - including famed playwright Tennessee Williams and some very significant New Yorkers. In its heyday, the Trade Mart was a BIG deal. Simply because the gay district of New Orleans is not all that physically large, I think it's certainly possible that Ferrie and Shaw were in proximity to one another at one time or another, but all attempts to connect them came to nothing. I filter Pena's Ferrie-Shaw revelations through the lens of his other crap and come up with "teller of tall tales."
With almost all the characters in the JFKA saga, the downfall of CT theorizing is learning all you can about the real people. The CT version typically proves to be completely at odds with their real lives. For that matter, if Ferrie and Shaw did have some sexual/social connection that had nothing to with the JFKA, then who cares? Surely, in every instance the purpose is to connect Shaw to some Garrison-type JFKA plot through innuendo.
Reading everything Pena said, I see him as a classic teller of tall tales. The HSCA interview notes refer to him as "dangling bits of information," and that seems to be all he did. He places himself just about everywhere in the New Orleans wing of JFKA speculation, but he never really says anything apart from his obvious effort to implicate DeBrueys and transform Oswald into some sort of FBI/Customs/INS operative (WHAT?). Yes, he doesn't specifically connect Shaw to the JFKA, but like many tellers of tall tales, he does so through innuendo. When asked by the HSCA about a connection between Oswald and Shaw, he just declines to comment on that (wink wink).
I don't know what Pena's game was - but that's what I end up saying, again and again, about the inexplicable tellers of tall tales across the entire spectrum of weirdness. The fact that they often have no obvious motive or agenda is what makes them doubly tough to expose. Pena certainly comes across in the HSCA testimony as having a major vendetta against DeBrueys for some reason.
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