JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
The best evidence Ferrie and Clay Shaw were close acquaintences
Gerry Down:
On a recent episode of The Lone Gunman podcast, Rob Clark reads out a Jan 1978 HSCA interview of Orest Pena. Its not his testimony, but an interview. Clark spends about 20 minutes reading the document here:
JFK INVESTIGATION - Ep. 373 - The Notorious F.B.I.
LINK (1 hour 22 mins to 1 hour 45 mins): //www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbgodea5Hrs
A particularly interesting part of the document, which Clark reads out at 1 hour 31 minutes, has Orest Pena stating:
“…Ferrie and Clay Shaw both came to my bar many times. They definitely knew each other because they came together a few times. Throughout the interview, Mr. Pena alluded to or inferred many pieces of information that he is in possession of. In effect he wanted some good faith on the part of the committee before he would talk about things. For instance, on the subject of Ferrie and Shaw he states that he knows the identity of a woman who came to the bar with Ferrie and she will be willing to talk to us. However he refused to identify her at this time.”
Orest Pena is generally viewed as a credible witness and so for Pena to say this would appear to be the best evidence that Ferrie and Shaw knew each other very well. Does anyone have a link to the Jan 1978 interview which Rob Clark reads out in the podcast and a link to the 90 page long testimony he references?
The only HSCA testimony of Pena I can find is his June 23rd 1978 testimony (RIF: 180-10075-10169) and that is only 36 pages long (not 90 pages) and can be viewed here:
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32246611.pdf
There is also a July 31st 1978 summary of that June 23rd testimony (RIF: 180-10075-10166). The July 31st 1978 summary can be viewed here:
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32246608.pdf
The only reference to Clay Saw in his June 23rd 1978 testimony is as follows and only mentions Clay Shaw at the bar but does not specifically mention Ferrie being in Shaws company:
Tom Graves:
--- Quote from: Gerry Down on January 26, 2026, 04:46:11 PM ---[...]
--- End quote ---
Wowie zowie!
Steve M. Galbraith:
What's the evidence that Pena was "generally viewed as a credible witness"? Credible by who? On what basis?
Here is Pena's WC testimony. He says he saw Oswald once with a person who looked Cuban. Neither Shaw or Ferrie, to me, looked Cuban.
Mr. PENA - Well, they asked me in connection with the Mr. Kennedy, the late President Kennedy's assassination, and also if I know anything about it. I told them I didn't know anything about it. They asked me if I saw Oswald; so I said I saw him once. He went to my place of business with one or two friends. I don't know exactly. My bar is a very long bar, so to me it looked like he was with two friends. My bartender, Evaristo Rodriguez, said he was with only one man, so I don't know exactly. It was something that happened in my place of business; a customer asking for a lemonade; a man. They don't usually do that. That was the first time in 7 years I have been in business that a customer asked for a lemonade. So my bartender he learned to be a bartender at my place of business; he was a seaman before he came to me and said, "The customer wants a lemonade. Do we do that?" I said, "Sure." He didn't know how to make it, so I said, "Take a glass of water, couple of spoons of sugar, some lemon." He say, "How much should I charge ?" I said, "Twenty-five cents." He went .back and made a lemonade and put it to Oswald. Then Oswald got mad. Said 25 cents was too much for the lemonade, and then he asked for a tequila for his friend."
And:
Mr. LIEBELER - Now did you ever see Oswald at any other time?
Mr. PENA - No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever see the man who was with him at any other time?
Mr. PENA - The man that was with him looked Spanish; more Cuban than anything else. You are American. You might know your people. I am Cuban. I can sight them. I don't think I am being mistaken about him, about Cuban people. I can spot them when I see them that they might be a Cuban.
Mr. LIEBELER - You thought this man might be a Cuban?
Mr. PENA - To me, I thought he was a Cuban. I can tell that is true. I wasn't even too close to him.
So which account should we believe?
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/pena_o.htm
And here is Rodriguez's testimony. He mentions seeing Oswald once and that Oswald got drunk and sick and had to be helped out of the bar.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/rodrigue.htm
Tom Graves:
--- Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on January 26, 2026, 07:59:59 PM ---What's the evidence that Pena was "generally viewed as a credible witness"? Credible by who? On what basis?
Here is Pena's WC testimony. He says he saw Oswald once with a person who looked Cuban. Neither Shaw or Ferrie, to me, looked Cuban.
Mr. PENA - Well, they asked me in connection with the Mr. Kennedy, the late President Kennedy's assassination, and also if I know anything about it. I told them I didn't know anything about it. They asked me if I saw Oswald; so I said I saw him once. He went to my place of business with one or two friends. I don't know exactly. My bar is a very long bar, so to me it looked like he was with two friends. My bartender, Evaristo Rodriguez, said he was with only one man, so I don't know exactly. It was something that happened in my place of business; a customer asking for a lemonade; a man. They don't usually do that. That was the first time in 7 years I have been in business that a customer asked for a lemonade. So my bartender he learned to be a bartender at my place of business; he was a seaman before he came to me and said, "The customer wants a lemonade. Do we do that?" I said, "Sure." He didn't know how to make it, so I said, "Take a glass of water, couple of spoons of sugar, some lemon." He say, "How much should I charge ?" I said, "Twenty-five cents." He went .back and made a lemonade and put it to Oswald. Then Oswald got mad. Said 25 cents was too much for the lemonade, and then he asked for a tequila for his friend."
And:
Mr. LIEBELER - Now did you ever see Oswald at any other time?
Mr. PENA - No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever see the man who was with him at any other time?
Mr. PENA - The man that was with him looked Spanish; more Cuban than anything else. You are American. You might know your people. I am Cuban. I can sight them. I don't think I am being mistaken about him, about Cuban people. I can spot them when I see them that they might be a Cuban.
Mr. LIEBELER - You thought this man might be a Cuban?
Mr. PENA - To me, I thought he was a Cuban. I can tell that is true. I wasn't even too close to him.
So which account should we believe?
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/pena_o.htm
--- End quote ---
Clay Shaw was 6' 4". If Pena had seen him, I think he would have mentioned that fact.
Gerry Down:
--- Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on January 26, 2026, 07:59:59 PM ---What's the evidence that Pena was "generally viewed as a credible witness"? Credible by who? On what basis?
Here is Pena's WC testimony. He says he saw Oswald once with a person who looked Cuban. Neither Shaw or Ferrie, to me, looked Cuban.
Mr. PENA - Well, they asked me in connection with the Mr. Kennedy, the late President Kennedy's assassination, and also if I know anything about it. I told them I didn't know anything about it. They asked me if I saw Oswald; so I said I saw him once. He went to my place of business with one or two friends. I don't know exactly. My bar is a very long bar, so to me it looked like he was with two friends. My bartender, Evaristo Rodriguez, said he was with only one man, so I don't know exactly. It was something that happened in my place of business; a customer asking for a lemonade; a man. They don't usually do that. That was the first time in 7 years I have been in business that a customer asked for a lemonade. So my bartender he learned to be a bartender at my place of business; he was a seaman before he came to me and said, "The customer wants a lemonade. Do we do that?" I said, "Sure." He didn't know how to make it, so I said, "Take a glass of water, couple of spoons of sugar, some lemon." He say, "How much should I charge ?" I said, "Twenty-five cents." He went .back and made a lemonade and put it to Oswald. Then Oswald got mad. Said 25 cents was too much for the lemonade, and then he asked for a tequila for his friend."
And:
Mr. LIEBELER - Now did you ever see Oswald at any other time?
Mr. PENA - No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever see the man who was with him at any other time?
Mr. PENA - The man that was with him looked Spanish; more Cuban than anything else. You are American. You might know your people. I am Cuban. I can sight them. I don't think I am being mistaken about him, about Cuban people. I can spot them when I see them that they might be a Cuban.
Mr. LIEBELER - You thought this man might be a Cuban?
Mr. PENA - To me, I thought he was a Cuban. I can tell that is true. I wasn't even too close to him.
So which account should we believe?
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/pena_o.htm
And here is Rodriguez's testimony. He mentions seeing Oswald once and that Oswald got drunk and sick and had to be helped out of the bar.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/rodrigue.htm
--- End quote ---
In the 1978 interview cited in the OP, Pena does not say he saw Oswald with Ferrie or Shaw. There is nothing about Oswald. Pena says he saw Shaw and Ferrie together.
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