What Would a Valid Lone-Gunman Rifle Test Look Like?

[Michael T. Griffith]

In the 1963 and 1967 rifle tests, 14 of the 15 riflemen, 13 of whom were experienced and highly skilled riflemen, and three of whom were Master-rated riflemen, tried and failed to duplicate Oswald's alleged shooting feat of scoring two hits in three shots in 6 seconds on his first attempt. Even the one expert rifleman who scored two hits in three shots in 6 seconds on his first attempt did not actually duplicate Oswald's supposed feat because he fired under conditions that were substantially easier than those Oswald would have faced, and because he had far better rifle skills than Oswald had.

So, what would a valid, realistic lone-gunman rifle test look like? What would a rifle test need to include to duplicate all the conditions of the shooting feat attributed to Lee Harvey Oswald? The test would have to include the following:

-- None of the participants can have scored higher than the second category of the three qualification categories for the Marine Corps or the Army, if they have ever been in the military.

-- Any participant who has not been in the Marine Corps or the Army cannot have scored higher than the third category of the six NRA qualification categories.

-- Each participant must be described as a poor shot by nearly all of the 50-plus people who saw him shoot four to seven years earlier and who are interviewed and asked about his shooting skills. Rockefeller Foundation fellow and investigative journalist Henry Hurt:

In 1977 the author located and interviewed more than fifty of
Oswald's Marine Corps colleagues, who had never been questioned
by officials or journalists. On the subject of Oswald's shooting ability,
there was virtually no exception to Delgado's opinion that it was
laughable.

Sherman Cooley, an expert hunter who grew up in rural Louisiana,
knew Oswald well during their Marine Corps service. Cooley's
comment capsulizes what several dozen Marines had to say about
Oswald's ability as a marksman:

"If I had to pick one man in the whole United States to shoot me,
I'd pick Oswald. I saw that man shoot, and there's no way he could
have ever learned to shoot well enough to do what they accused him of.
Take me, I'm one of the best shots around, and I couldn't have done it."

Many of the Marines mentioned that Oswald had a certain lack of
coordination that, they felt, was responsible for the fact that he
had difficulty learning to shoot. They believed it was the same
deficiency in coordination responsible for his reported inability to
drive a car. Repeatedly, as an illustration of his ineptitude, the
former Marines harked back to the time Oswald managed to shoot
himself in the arm while fooling with an unauthorized pistol he had
stashed in his locker. (Reasonable Doubt, pp. 99-100)

-- Each participant must be described as a poor shot by people who saw him shoot one to three years earlier. Oswald was in the Soviet Union from October 1959 till June 1962. For most of his time in Russia, he lived in the city of Minsk. While there, he belonged to a gun club. The members of his gun club viewed him as a poor shot:

Members of the club reported that Oswald had been considered a
poor shot. (G. Robert Blakey and Richard Billings, Fatal Hour: The
Assassination of President Kennedy by Organized Crime, New York:
Berkley Books, 1992, p. 139).

Subsequent press releases out of the former Soviet Union likewise reported that Russians who saw Oswald shoot considered him to be a bad shot.

-- Participants must use a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, which is not considered to be a high-quality rifle when it comes to firing rapidly with accuracy. Henry Hurt:

In any discussion of Oswald's Marine marksmanship, there is a
presumption that the rifle being used is one of acceptable quality.
The ancient, bolt-action Mannlicher-Carcano—built around 1940—
represents the opposite extreme. One handbook on rifles has called
it "an odd choice" for the assassination, since it "has no great reputation
for accuracy." This type of weapon also has "a good deal of recoil,"
making rapid shooting "notoriously difficult" considering the
cheap telescope used.

Mechanix Illustrated, one of this country's most respected journals
of popular technology and gadgetry, carried an article in 1964 on
the best way to find bargains in purchasing surplus military weapons.
The article had nothing to do with the assassination rifle and did not
even mention the connection. In advising its readers about various
characteristics of more than a dozen rifles, Mechanix Illustrated
dismissed the Mannlicher-Carcano as being "crudely made, poorly
designed, dangerous, inaccurate . . . unreliable on repeat shots."

The Oswald rifle was further handicapped by the fact that, according
to the FBI, the scope was mounted off center, so that a shooter would
have to compensate for the error. (Reasonable Doubt, p. 100)

-- The participants cannot fire any practice rounds before the rifle test.

-- The participants must fire in the same cramped conditions that Oswald would have faced in the alleged sniper's nest in the sixth-floor window. Look at these photos to get some idea of how cramped/tight the firing location would have been for Oswald:

"The Cramped Quarters/Tight Space of the Alleged Sniper's Nest in the Southeast Corner Window of the Texas School Book Depository"
https://sites.google.com/view/tight-space-for-sniper/home

-- The firing location must include a half-open window, in addition to the same cramped space that Oswald would have faced, and participants must fire through that half-open window.

-- The participants can take up to 11 seconds to fire their three shots, but their final two shots must be fired in less than 6 seconds and must both be hits. If one of their final two shots is a miss, then their first shot must be a hit, the second shot a miss, and the third shot a hit.

-- A shot will only be counted as a hit if it lands in the same small area that Oswald allegedly hit with two of his shots.

-- The participants will get only one attempt.

-- The participants must fire from an elevation of 60 feet.

-- The participants must fire at a moving target silhouette.

-- The participants must believe there is a chance that they will be hit by a dart fired by one or more of the people riding behind the target silhouette if they do not fire their final two shots in 6 seconds or less. Obviously, there can be chance of serious injury, or else no one would agree to participate. So, the chance of injury must be no more than the dart hitting the arm or the shoulder, with an absolute guarantee that the dart will not hit the head, face, or chest of the participants.

People usually forget that the alleged lone gunman would have faced the very real possibility, at least in his mind, that one or more of the Secret Service agents could spot his rifle and fire at his window. This would have put great pressure on him to fire his shots as quickly as possible so he could begin his escape--unless, of course, he had been assured that no such return fire would occur, but lone-gunman theorists rule out such a scenario.

-- The participants must not have target-practiced within 40 days of the test. The FBI could find no evidence that Oswald did any target practice in the 40 days leading up to the 11/22 shooting. In fact, in the four years leading up to the assassination, the Warren Commission could only come up with 12 alleged cases where Oswald had any rifle practice, and one of those included Marina's belated claim that he would practice working the rifle's bolt while relaxing in New Orleans.

I can think of a few more conditions, but they are minor. The above conditions would make any rifle test a valid, realistic lone-gunman rifle test.

[Jack Nessan]

I can think of a few more conditions, but they are minor. The above conditions would make any rifle test a valid, realistic lone-gunman rifle test.

How about two shots in 5.6 seconds. Everything else is fantasy and a waste of time and ammo. Try duplicating that.

[Lance Payette]

Oswald's actual results - which one of you folks could have purchased for a mere $75,000 if you weren't so cheap  - speak for themselves:

https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/lot-detail/345171706200220-lee-harvey-oswalds-us-marine-corps-rifle-score-book-warren-commission-exhibit-no-239/

On December 21, 1956, Oswald was tested for marksmanship with his rifle on five different exercises—from 200, 300 and 500 yards firing slowly and from 200 and 300 yards firing rapidly. Based on these results a Marine would be rated by a defined scoring system: over 190 points was considered a marksman, over 210 was a sharpshooter, and over 220 was considered an expert. Oswald scored 212 and was rated in the middle as a sharpshooter. For the slow test (page 5), the target was 10" tall by 10" wide. For the rapid fire test the target was 26" wide by 19" tall. A closer examination of Oswald's 200 yard rapid fire result shows he hit 8/10 bullseyes and scored 48 out of 50. An expert rating on this test would have required a minimum score of 44 points (44 points x 5 tests = 220 points required). On his next test, 300 yards in rapid fire, Oswald hit 7/10 bullseyes scoring 46 out of 50. Again an expert rating on this test would have required a result of 44. So in both tests that most closely matched the conditions in the Kennedy assassination for rapid fire shooting Oswald scored above an expert level. Additionally on his third test from 500 yards firing slowly, Oswald scored 46 out of a possible 50: again shooting above an expert level.

46 out of 50 at 500 yards with iron sights.

Silly, desperate people persist with silly, desperate arguments.

[Michael T. Griffith]

Oswald's actual results - which one of you folks could have purchased for a mere $75,000 if you weren't so cheap  - speak for themselves:

https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/lot-detail/345171706200220-lee-harvey-oswalds-us-marine-corps-rifle-score-book-warren-commission-exhibit-no-239/

On December 21, 1956, Oswald was tested for marksmanship with his rifle on five different exercises—from 200, 300 and 500 yards firing slowly and from 200 and 300 yards firing rapidly. Based on these results a Marine would be rated by a defined scoring system: over 190 points was considered a marksman, over 210 was a sharpshooter, and over 220 was considered an expert. Oswald scored 212 and was rated in the middle as a sharpshooter. For the slow test (page 5), the target was 10" tall by 10" wide. For the rapid fire test the target was 26" wide by 19" tall. A closer examination of Oswald's 200 yard rapid fire result shows he hit 8/10 bullseyes and scored 48 out of 50. An expert rating on this test would have required a minimum score of 44 points (44 points x 5 tests = 220 points required). On his next test, 300 yards in rapid fire, Oswald hit 7/10 bullseyes scoring 46 out of 50. Again an expert rating on this test would have required a result of 44. So in both tests that most closely matched the conditions in the Kennedy assassination for rapid fire shooting Oswald scored above an expert level. Additionally on his third test from 500 yards firing slowly, Oswald scored 46 out of a possible 50: again shooting above an expert level.

46 out of 50 at 500 yards with iron sights. Silly, desperate people persist with silly, desperate arguments.

And you are among the silly, desperate people who keep repeating silly, desperate arguments, and who keep ignoring facts that refute your fiction. People who read my OP and then read your pitiful reply will recognize that you have ducked every fact that contradicts your fantasy.

It is laughable, unserious drivel to appeal to Oswald's Marine rifle scores, not to mention that doing so doesn't lay a finger on the WC and CBS rifle tests and ignores the key components of the alleged shooting feat.

A few facts about Oswald's Marine Corps rifle scores (most of which I've mentioned several times in previous threads):

-- The so-called "rapid fire" phase of the Marine Corps qualification test was far, far longer than the alleged lone gunman would have had to fire all three of his shots. During the "rapid fire" phase on the Marine Corps rifle range, Oswald had 60 seconds to fire 10 shots (or 6 seconds per shot). On 11/22/63, he would have had no more than 11 seconds to fire three shots (or no more than 3.6 seconds per shot), would have had to fire his final two shots in 5.6 seconds (2.3 seconds per shot), and would have had to do so from 60 feet up, in cramped quarters, with no practice in the preceding 40 days, and using a bolt-action rifle that had a difficult bolt and an odd trigger pull.

-- The December 1956 Oswald Marine Corps rifle scores you cite barely exceeded the minimum for the second of three qualification categories.

-- Some new recruits, who never fired a rifle before, have met or bettered the Oswald shooting scores that you cite. In Army basic training, I personally saw several such new recruits qualify in the second category (Sharpshooter).

-- Oswald was using a superb semi-automatic rifle, which means he had no bolt to worry about working. I know you know very little about weapons, but ask any serious rifleman if not having to operate a bolt action makes a big difference in your ability to fire quickly and accurately.

-- Oswald was firing from a level shooting position.

-- Oswald was firing at targets that he had recently spent hours practicing against.

-- When Oswald fired for record in May 1959, he barely managed to qualify in the last category of the three qualification categories.

I've seen your dance before. I know you're never going to get around to dealing with the facts about the actual shooting feat under discussion and with the facts regarding the rifle tests that attempted to show the feasibility of that shooting feat.

[Jack Nessan]

MGriffith
“It is laughable, unserious drivel to appeal to Oswald's Marine rifle scores, not to mention that doing so doesn't lay a finger on the WC and CBS rifle tests and ignores the key components of the alleged shooting feat.”
 
“A few facts about Oswald's Marine Corps rifle scores (most of which I've mentioned several times in previous threads):

....On 11/22/63, he would have had no more than 11 seconds to fire three shots (or no more than 3.6 seconds per shot), would have had to fire his final two shots in 5.6 seconds (2.3 seconds per shot),[/u][/i] and would have had to do so from 60 feet up, in cramped quarters, with no practice in the preceding 40 days, and using a bolt-action rifle that had a difficult bolt and an odd trigger pull.”

It looks like you are a Lone Nut advocate after all. Nice to see you finally clued in.

Let us examine your current shooting sequence.

First shot @ z112 -----(11 seconds from Z313)

Second shot @ Z210---(5.6 seconds from Z313)

Third shot @ Z313 

First shot--- an obvious miss or Phantom Shot. You have set a new record for how early the first missed shot occurred.

Second shot--- SBT---A Single Bullet wounds JFK and causes all the wounds to JBC. Definitely right about that shot.

Third shot --- Fatal head shot. Hard to argue that one.

Congratulations, you have managed to leave Clown Town in the rear-view mirror. 

You already have stated that LHO only fired twice, and CE 543 was not fired that day. That would scratch the shot at Z110. 

Nice turn around Michael, you have managed to figure out there really was only two shots fired that day. I was losing hope you would ever understand something this simple.

[Michael T. Griffith]

MGriffith
“It is laughable, unserious drivel to appeal to Oswald's Marine rifle scores, not to mention that doing so doesn't lay a finger on the WC and CBS rifle tests and ignores the key components of the alleged shooting feat.”
 
“A few facts about Oswald's Marine Corps rifle scores (most of which I've mentioned several times in previous threads):

....On 11/22/63, he would have had no more than 11 seconds to fire three shots (or no more than 3.6 seconds per shot), would have had to fire his final two shots in 5.6 seconds (2.3 seconds per shot),[/u][/i] and would have had to do so from 60 feet up, in cramped quarters, with no practice in the preceding 40 days, and using a bolt-action rifle that had a difficult bolt and an odd trigger pull.”

It looks like you are a Lone Nut advocate after all. Nice to see you finally clued in.

Let us examine your current shooting sequence.

First shot @ z112 -----(11 seconds from Z313)

Second shot @ Z210---(5.6 seconds from Z313)

Third shot @ Z313 

First shot--- an obvious miss or Phantom Shot. You have set a new record for how early the first missed shot occurred.

Second shot--- SBT---A Single Bullet wounds JFK and causes all the wounds to JBC. Definitely right about that shot.

Third shot --- Fatal head shot. Hard to argue that one.

Congratulations, you have managed to leave Clown Town in the rear-view mirror. 

You already have stated that LHO only fired twice, and CE 543 was not fired that day. That would scratch the shot at Z110. 

Nice turn around Michael, you have managed to figure out there really was only two shots fired that day. I was losing hope you would ever understand something this simple.

I think you have a serious learning and comprehension deficiency. I have answered each of your arguments many times. I have also explained my version of the shooting many times.

For any newcomers or guests, this fellow is part of the very tiny minority of lone-assassin theorists who believe that the sixth-floor gunman only fired two shots and that the third shot, the head shot, was fired accidentally by a Secret Service agent who was riding in the follow-up car.

Now is a good time to say a few more things about the Marine Corps rifle qualification firing that Oswald did in December 1956 and May 1959.

The firing was divided into multiple stages based on distance and firing position:

200 yards

Slow fire: Marines fired 15 rounds from the standing, sitting, and kneeling positions over 20 minutes.

Rapid fire: Marines fired 10 rounds in one minute, starting from standing and dropping to the sitting position.

300 yards

Slow fire: Marines fired 5 rounds from the sitting position in five minutes.

Rapid fire: Marines fired 10 rounds in one minute, starting from standing and dropping to the prone position.

500 yards

Slow fire: Marines fired 10 rounds from the prone position in 10 minutes.

Lance Payette obviously did not know that the time allowed for the so-called "rapid fire" phase was far greater than the time the alleged sixth-floor gunman would have had to fire his supposed three shots.

The rapid-fire phase allowed 1 minute/60 seconds to fire 10 shots--and this was done using a superb semi-automatic rifle (i.e., no manual bolt action to operate) while firing from a level position and after hours of recent practice on the same targets.

In contrast, Oswald, the alleged sixth-floor gunman, would have had no more than 11 seconds to fire three shots, and would have had only 5.6 seconds to fire his last two shots--and this was allegedly done using a bolt-action rifle with an odd trigger pull while firing from 60 feet up and without the benefit of any practice in the days leading up to the shooting.

[Benjamin Cole]

In fact, I think shots that struck JBC and HJFK were in too-rapid succession to have been issued from a single-shot-per-bolt-action rifle.

That does not exonerate LHO. And, LHO was a good shot in 1956, and may have practiced in 1963.

Moreover, recent assassinations and attempts (Kirk and Trump) shows that relative amateurs can hit targets, at way more than 70 yards.

[Jack Nessan]

I think you have a serious learning and comprehension deficiency. I have answered each of your arguments many times. I have also explained my version of the shooting many times.

For any newcomers or guests, this fellow is part of the very tiny minority of lone-assassin theorists who believe that the sixth-floor gunman only fired two shots and that the third shot, the head shot, was fired accidentally by a Secret Service agent who was riding in the follow-up car.

Now is a good time to say a few more things about the Marine Corps rifle qualification firing that Oswald did in December 1956 and May 1959.

The firing was divided into multiple stages based on distance and firing position:

200 yards

Slow fire: Marines fired 15 rounds from the standing, sitting, and kneeling positions over 20 minutes.

Rapid fire: Marines fired 10 rounds in one minute, starting from standing and dropping to the sitting position.

300 yards

Slow fire: Marines fired 5 rounds from the sitting position in five minutes.

Rapid fire: Marines fired 10 rounds in one minute, starting from standing and dropping to the prone position.

500 yards

Slow fire: Marines fired 10 rounds from the prone position in 10 minutes.

Lance Payette obviously did not know that the time allowed for the so-called "rapid fire" phase was far greater than the time the alleged sixth-floor gunman would have had to fire his supposed three shots.

The rapid-fire phase allowed 1 minute/60 seconds to fire 10 shots--and this was done using a superb semi-automatic rifle (i.e., no manual bolt action to operate) while firing from a level position and after hours of recent practice on the same targets.

In contrast, Oswald, the alleged sixth-floor gunman, would have had no more than 11 seconds to fire three shots, and would have had only 5.6 seconds to fire his last two shots--and this was allegedly done using a bolt-action rifle with an odd trigger pull while firing from 60 feet up and without the benefit of any practice in the days leading up to the shooting.

MGriffith “I think you have a serious learning and comprehension deficiency. I have answered each of your arguments many times. I have also explained my version of the shooting many times.”

This is good. Watching you unravel over the phantom third shot indicates you get it. There were only two shots You now have gone so far as to accuse me of adding a third shot. It is too bad all your posting and papers are basically worthless because they are predicated on something that never happened. Even someone from Military Intelligence should be able to understand that you should check your facts before arriving at a conclusion. 

----------------------

What question? 

You have never done anything but prattle on. There is no question to even answer. Produce proof of a third shot. How hard can it be. All of your ramblings center on the belief that there were three shots. See, there is no question. Your whole sad story hinges on a shot that never occurred.
 
MGriffith “For any newcomers or guests, this fellow is part of the very tiny minority of lone-assassin theorists who believe that the sixth-floor gunman only fired two shots and that the third shot, the head shot, was fired accidentally by a Secret Service agent who was riding in the follow-up car.”

 Apparently, you are thinking you have an audience or fan club. I promise you that you don’t, nobody in his right mind would pay attention to this unsubstantiated and unproven drivel.

This is why it is pointless to even ask you a question. You don’t tell the same story twice. 

This is just a BS artists way of deflecting the conversation from his sad story. I will refresh your faltering memory on what you really think and have stated in the past.

Let’s review your recent posts. You can’t even get your story straight on the number of shots in your various posts. They have been one endless fantasy story.

1) M Griffith “One, you are part of a very tiny minority of people who believe only two shots were fired during the assassination. Every leading lone-gunman theorist rejects your two-shots scenario.”

2) M Griffith “For any newcomers, Jack Nessan belongs to a tiny, tiny fringe minority of lone-gunman theorists who argue that the sixth-floor gunman only fired two shots. We know that at least four shots were fired during the assassination. We know this from scientific acoustical evidence, from scientific blur-episode analysis, and from credible and corroborated accounts of extra bullets striking in Dealey Plaza and of an extra bullet being found in JFK's limo after the shooting.”
Imagine how much time and effort you would have saved yourself if only you had tried to make sense of the number of shots there were before jumping into all this conspiracy nonsense.

-------------------------

Which one is it? First it was just Oswald doing the shooting, then you changed to an alleged Oswald when the three shots you described could actually only be two shots. It really doesn’t matter in either story, it is the same result by your own admission. Two shots.

MGriffith:

1)  ....On 11/22/63, he would have had no more than 11 seconds to fire three shots (or no more than 3.6 seconds per shot), would have had to fire his final two shots in 5.6 seconds (2.3 seconds per shot), and would have had to do so from 60 feet up, in cramped quarters, with no practice in the preceding 40 days, and using a bolt-action rifle that had a difficult bolt and an odd trigger pull.”

OR 

2) In contrast, Oswald, the alleged sixth-floor gunman, would have had no more than 11 seconds to fire three shots, and would have had only 5.6 seconds to fire his last two shots--and this was allegedly done using a bolt-action rifle with an odd trigger pull while firing from 60 feet up and without the benefit of any practice in the days leading up to the shooting.

--------------------------------------------

MGriffith “I have also explained my version of the shooting many times.”

Not really, it seems to be really fluid. Shots from every direction. In your stories everyone in Dealey Plaza had a gun. Anywhere from four shots to the truth that LHO only fired twice. 

-------------------------

 
MGriffith “Now is a good time to say a few more things about the Marine Corps rifle qualification firing that Oswald did in December 1956 and May 1959.
 
The firing was divided into multiple stages based on distance and firing position:”

It was not much of a shooting feat at all according to a Marine Corp shooting instructor.

Mr. SPECTER ----...My question, then, is how would you characterize the difficulty or ease of that shot for a marksman with Mr. Oswald's capabilities?
Major ANDERSON - In my opinion this is not a particularly difficult shot, and that Oswald had full capabilities to make this shot

Mr. SPECTER.... I ask you again for an opinion as to the ease or difficulty of that shot, taking into consideration the capabilities of Mr. Oswald as a marksman, evidenced by the Marine Corps documents on him.
Major ANDERSON - I consider it to be not a particularly difficult shot at this short range, and that Oswald had full capabilities to make such a shot.

Oswalds Marine Corp training played no role in firing two shots in 5.6 seconds. Not at all. Even you could have done it. Everyone knows that a bolt action rifle from that era was considered more accurate than a semi auto due to machining. What is the point of you trying to compare them.

----------------------

MGriffith: “I have also explained my version of the shooting many times.”

Not really, your explanations are all over the board, the number of shots in your story seems to be extremely fluid. Anywhere from four shots to LHO only fired twice. 

This is hard to watch because you seem to be unraveling in slow motion. All that is left of your shooting sequence is now an added shot by a Secret Service Agent? Can you provide any evidence the Secret Service Agent is the third shot in your narrative? You can’t prove anything, except the two shots readily seen in the Zapruder Film.

Even in making up a story about only two shots you can’t help yourself and add an additional shot. Borderline pathological.

Whatever happened to you promoting David Josephs? Did he ever figure out he had the wrong rifle? The rifle he pictured wasn’t even available until 50 years after the assassination.