Was the Rifle that Lt. Day carried out of the TSBD the same as in evidence?

[John Mytton]

More of your uninformed, erroneous material. Do you have any idea how many Mauser-like rifles have the strap attachments embedded on the side? By the way, the rifle that Oswald allegedly ordered had the strap attachments on the bottom, not on the side. The photo of the rifle in the catalog shows this.

Anyway, David Josephs has proved conclusively, definitively with photographic evidence that the rifle that Lt. Day carried out of the TSBD has none of the markings on the rifle that was later entered into evidence (CE 139):

The Mauser, the Carcano, and the Lt. Day Rifle
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-mauser-the-carcano-and-the-lt-day-rifle

I recommend two other articles by Josephs related to the alleged murder weapon:

Rifle Money Order Timeline
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/rifle-money-order-timeline
An analytical timeline which demonstrates the difficulties with the Warren Commission's story about Oswald's alleged purchase of the Mannlicher-Carcano.

The Klein's Rifle
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-klein-s-rifle
More evidence against the official story about Oswald's alleged purchase of a rifle from Klein's.

More of your uninformed, erroneous material.

From what perspective, yours?
I'm adequately informed that Oswald's rifle with his prints and matching shirt fibres was discovered on the 6th floor of Oswald's workplace and as I demonstrated, Alyea's film conclusively shows Oswald's actual rifle C2766 being extracted from it's hiding spot.
I also showed that unique scratches, a gouge and other anomalies were consistent between the Day rifle outside the TSBD and the rifle in evidence. 

Now Griffith listen carefully and I'll ask again, it's been established beyond all doubt that Oswald's rifle was discovered on the 6th floor, so why on Earth would they substitute this rifle and carry out a different rifle and then later in the halls of Justice resubstitute this rifle with the rifle discovered on the 6th floor? How does this fit a logical narrative and how does this further your conspiracy?

Stage 1. Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor.



Stage 2. A "mysterious" rifle a short time later being taken from the Depository



Stage 3. Oswald's rifle being shown to the press.



How does a different rifle at Stage 2 fit your conspiracy narrative?

BTW the above example exemplifies this conspiracy, the conspirators were brilliant at stages 1 and 3 but total Keystone Cops at stage 2! Hahaha!

JohnM

[Benjamin Cole]

I gather some CT'ers believe in fact a Mauser, likely the true murder weapon, was first found on TSBD6, and then a M-C was subbed in, but not CE 139.

That is to say Lt. Day carried another M-C from TSBD to the DPD HQ, and then CE 139 was subbed in for the ersatz M-C inside the DPD.

That stretches credulity. Besides all that, the M-C was serviceable rifle (or carbine) at 70 yards.

[Tim Nickerson]

From what perspective, yours?
I'm adequately informed that Oswald's rifle with his prints and matching shirt fibres was discovered on the 6th floor of Oswald's workplace and as I demonstrated, Alyea's film conclusively shows Oswald's actual rifle C2766 being extracted from it's hiding spot.
I also showed that unique scratches, a gouge and other anomalies were consistent between the Day rifle outside the TSBD and the rifle in evidence. 

Now Griffith listen carefully and I'll ask again, it's been established beyond all doubt that Oswald's rifle was discovered on the 6th floor, so why on Earth would they substitute this rifle and carry out a different rifle and then later in the halls of Justice resubstitute this rifle with the rifle discovered on the 6th floor? How does this fit a logical narrative and how does this further your conspiracy?

Stage 1. Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor.



Stage 2. A "mysterious" rifle a short time later being taken from the Depository



Stage 3. Oswald's rifle being shown to the press.



How does a different rifle at Stage 2 fit your conspiracy narrative?

JohnM

Sorry John, but  David Josephs has proved conclusively, definitively with photographic evidence that the rifle that Lt. Day carried out of the TSBD has none of the markings on the rifle that was later entered into evidence (CE 139):

The Mauser, the Carcano, and the Lt. Day Rifle
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-mauser-the-carcano-and-the-lt-day-rifle



You remember Josephs, right?  He used to share his wisdom with us here on this forum. Since he left, we are no longer treated with such insights as the following:

There is no evidence Kleins ever had C2766 to ship in March in the first place other than a list of 100 rifles for which not a single other rifle has EVER been found - only C2766. - David Josephs

The Stub, from which the PMO[Klein's money order] is discovered and at one time was attached - is the very thing that gives the PMO any initial credibility. To then claim not to have this item breaks the chain of evidence. The PMO then requires other forms of authentication. When that cannot occur due to conflicting evidence, that item cannot be authenticated or regarded as "real evidence". It's worthless. - David Josephs

The home address in Alexandria, Virginia of  Robert H. Jackson,  the purported finder of the PMO at the National Archives and Records Service, Federal Records Center "does not exist", and thus it's unlikely that Jackson ever existed.-- Paraphrasing David Josephs.

[Jack Nessan]

More of your uninformed, erroneous material. Do you have any idea how many Mauser-like rifles have the strap attachments embedded on the side? By the way, the rifle that Oswald allegedly ordered had the strap attachments on the bottom, not on the side. The photo of the rifle in the catalog shows this.

Anyway, David Josephs has proved conclusively, definitively with photographic evidence that the rifle that Lt. Day carried out of the TSBD has none of the markings on the rifle that was later entered into evidence (CE 139):

The Mauser, the Carcano, and the Lt. Day Rifle
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-mauser-the-carcano-and-the-lt-day-rifle

I recommend two other articles by Josephs related to the alleged murder weapon:

Rifle Money Order Timeline
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/rifle-money-order-timeline
An analytical timeline which demonstrates the difficulties with the Warren Commission's story about Oswald's alleged purchase of the Mannlicher-Carcano.

The Klein's Rifle
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-klein-s-rifle
More evidence against the official story about Oswald's alleged purchase of a rifle from Klein's.

Michael, you really need to find a new hobby.

The Mauser, the Carcano, and the Lt. Day Rifle
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-mauser-the-carcano-and-the-lt-day-rifle

What a load of crap. It is not wise to put any value on something Rodger Craig stated.
 
Mauser only made 4000 of these rifles in 1933-34 and they were made for the Buenos Arias Provincial Police force exclusively. They were never sold in the US until 2006. They are an expensive collector's rifle.

GUNBOARDS Forum

John Wall

3,455 posts · Joined 2007

#4 · Apr 20, 2011 (Edited)

The Argentine rifles are described in Jon Speed's book "The Mauser Archive" on page 447. The Argentine police purchased a total of 4,000 MOD.1933 rifles in the 1937-1938 fiscal year. 2,000 rifles were carbines with 55 cm (21.5" barrel) and 2,000 short rifles with 60 c, (23.5") barrels.   

It arrived in the USA about 5-6 years ago when JLD Enterprises imported about 300 Buenos Aires Provincial Police carbines.

[John Mytton]

Sorry John, but  David Josephs has proved conclusively, definitively with photographic evidence that the rifle that Lt. Day carried out of the TSBD has none of the markings on the rifle that was later entered into evidence (CE 139):

The Mauser, the Carcano, and the Lt. Day Rifle
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-mauser-the-carcano-and-the-lt-day-rifle



You remember Josephs, right?  He used to share his wisdom with us here on this forum. Since he left, we are no longer treated with such insights as the following:

There is no evidence Kleins ever had C2766 to ship in March in the first place other than a list of 100 rifles for which not a single other rifle has EVER been found - only C2766. - David Josephs

The Stub, from which the PMO[Klein's money order] is discovered and at one time was attached - is the very thing that gives the PMO any initial credibility. To then claim not to have this item breaks the chain of evidence. The PMO then requires other forms of authentication. When that cannot occur due to conflicting evidence, that item cannot be authenticated or regarded as "real evidence". It's worthless. - David Josephs

The home address in Alexandria, Virginia of  Robert H. Jackson,  the purported finder of the PMO at the National Archives and Records Service, Federal Records Center "does not exist", and thus it's unlikely that Jackson ever existed.-- Paraphrasing David Josephs.

Hey Tim, yeah I remember debating Josephs and after he had endless troubles defending his "ideas", he went for greener pastures where as long as you toe the line, everyone kisses each others ass!

And your examples made me laugh, it's reminds me of DiEugenio who claims that because no one at the post office remembers an 8 month old transaction then obviously Oswald never received the rifle! You can't make this $hit up!

I had a look at Josephs "The Mauser, the Carcano, and the Lt. Day Rifle" PDF and wow what a load of garbage.

1. Josephs alludes to the fact that because a 7.65 Mauser was "identified" that the rifle taken from the Depository was a Mauser but the photographic evidence is solid that the rifle was identical to Oswald's Carcano.



1a. A 7.65 Mauser while similar is different when directly compared and understandably in the darkness of the 6th floor a misidentification is excusable and I wasn't there but I doubt that the murder weapon was handed to each officer so they could closely examine it.



2. Josephs comparisons rely on images which have been heavily processed, for instance the following comparison comes from the primary source that Josephs links to and his extremely contrasted inverted misrepresentation is clear to see. The official image from the WC in extreme closeup can be barely seen and the 6.5 is not even visible hence Josephs compositing a 6.5 from another source and even with this overlay the 6 is virtually invisible. Also worth considering that there is probably some fingerprint dust on the rifle which would further obscure any detail.



JohnM

[Michael T. Griffith]

Hey Tim, yeah I remember debating Josephs and after he had endless troubles defending his "ideas", he went for greener pastures where as long as you toe the line, everyone kisses each others ass!

And your examples made me laugh, it's reminds me of DiEugenio who claims that because no one at the post office remembers an 8 month old transaction then obviously Oswald never received the rifle! You can't make this $&^% up!

I had a look at Josephs "The Mauser, the Carcano, and the Lt. Day Rifle" PDF and wow what a load of garbage.

Phew. As I've already proved, your research is the "load of garbage." Your shoddy, gaffe-filled research can't hold a candle to David Josephs' superb scholarship.

1. Josephs alludes to the fact that because a 7.65 Mauser was "identified" that the rifle taken from the Depository was a Mauser but the photographic evidence is solid that the rifle was identical to Oswald's Carcano.

1a. A 7.65 Mauser while similar is different when directly compared and understandably in the darkness of the 6th floor a misidentification is excusable and I wasn't there but I doubt that the murder weapon was handed to each officer so they could closely examine it.

2. Josephs comparisons rely on images which have been heavily processed, for instance the following comparison comes from the primary source that Josephs links to and his extremely contrasted inverted misrepresentation is clear to see. The official image from the WC in extreme closeup can be barely seen and the 6.5 is not even visible hence Josephs compositing a 6.5 from another source and even with this overlay the 6 is virtually invisible. Also worth considering that there is probably some fingerprint dust on the rifle which would further obscure any detail.

JohnM

You either cannot see or are knowingly trying to mislead people. You don't lay a finger on Josephs' evidence. You don't even deal with the self-evident photographic proof that the "CAL" and "Made Italy" markings are not on the rifle that Day is carrying out the building. You deceptively focus on the 6.5 and ignore the fact that "CAL" and "Made Italy" are not on the Day rifle.

The idea that fingerprint powder would have made all those markings invisible is laughable.

Here is a prime example of how you guys just refuse to face facts, even when the facts are undeniable and self-evident.

I encourage everyone to read David Josephs' article for themselves:

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-mauser-the-carcano-and-the-lt-day-rifle

[Jack Nessan]

Apparently, Josephs and Griffiths have very limited knowledge of German firearms. First, that is not the barrel where the Mauser stamp is placed. That is the receiver. Second these 1933 model rifles with a Mauser stamp were a limited production for the Argentine Police and that was all, and they were not available in the US until 2005-06. LHO nor anyone else could not have possessed one in 1963. 

Josephs: “In the cropped statement from his supplemental report above BOONE tries to make it sound as if he left the film and did not remain at the Sheriff’s office for all these other activities when in reality it appears as if the finding of the rifle waited around for BOONE to arrive. But that gets ahead of ourselves. The following graphic shows the Mauser stamp and “7.65” on the barrel facing the same direction with the Carcano sans scope above it. The name Roger CRAIG does not appear in either man’s signed account. It’s hard to fathom Lt. DAY identifying this rifle as 6.5mm & Made in Italy based on its “markings”, given how clear the “MAUSER” and “7.65” are…” 

Total fabricated nonsense.

 

Whoever this Josephs individual is he royally messed it up and apparently has sucked M Griffith in with him as far as claiming the rifle had Mauser stamped on the barrel let alone it really was stamped on the receiver. 

You could not purchase a model 1933 rifle with Mauser stamped on the receiver in the US until 2005-06. LHO could not have purchased a model 1933 Mauser stamped rifle because they weren’t available for sale. Only 4000 were ever made and shipped to the Buenos Arias Provincial Police Force where they remained until 2005-06. The 1891 and 1909 Argentine rifles using a 7.65x53 Mauser cartridge were manufactured by the German manufacturers' DWM or Lowe Berlin not by Mauser. They in general are referred to as Argentine Mausers because of the cartridge they are chambered in not by the manufacturer.

In addition, the Modell 1933 standard model Mauser was chambered in the 7.92 x57 cartridge not the 7.65 x 53 cartridge.

 

[Lance Payette]

David Josephs is one of the most rabid True Believers in HARVEY AND LEE. He's practically on the H&L payroll.

How would a Mauser mesh with the HARVEY AND LEE narrative? The theory is that HARVEY was framed and that (I quote) "The rifle found on the 6th floor of the TSBD was an Italian made Mannlicher-Carcano, serial number C2766," https://harveyandlee.net/Mail_Order_Rifle/Mail_Order_Rifle.html.

As far as I can tell, the supposed Mauser is never even mentioned by Armstrong. The only mention is Malcolm Howard Price reporting a "Mauser-type" rifle at the Sports Drome Gun Range. The Mauser is also never mentioned in the massive, 100+ page "Evidence for Harvey and Lee" thread at the Ed Forum.

How would a Mauser in the TSBD advance the HARVEY AND LEE narrative?

Did David Josephs do all this work on the Mauser to advance some alternative theory? Is his motto "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)?

Or is this just another example of "We just want evidence of a conspiracy, regardless of whether it makes any sense in the context of our pet theory?"

For that matter, what the heck IS the conspiracy theory that a Mauser in the TSBD would advance?