How Did Bart Kamp Create The Lovelady Image?

[Dan O'meara]

While one is always entitled to engage in thought experiments, a thought experiment taking Vicki Adams' story at face value seems a stretch to me in light of the fact that Sandra Styles, her companion, always said she thought Vicki's time estimate was at least somewhat off and, more importantly, was adamant that Shelley and Lovelady were not there. Occam (or Ockham, if you prefer) tells me a more plausible thought experiment has Vicki conflating her and Styles' trip down the stairs with a slightly later encounter by her with Shelley and Lovelady when they reentered the TSBD. But, hey, that's just my and Occam's little thought experiment.

Bart Kamp summarizes what Styles repeatedly told Barry Ernest here: http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/sandra-styles/. Sean Murphy also followed up with her after Ernest's book came out. I also found a long discussion at Greg Parker's forum where the sentiment seemed to be that the "Shelley and Lovelady" question and answer had been fiendishly inserted into Vicki's actual WC testimony precisely to make it seem that she and Styles must have left the fourth floor window later than she thiought. Greg seemed to find this unlikely, and my thought experiment doesn't require any such shenanigans by the WC; in mine, the two cuties can have come down the stairs however quickly you like, with Vicki simply being a bit off as to when she saw Shelley and Lovelady.

(Lots of Sandra Styles' stuff for sale on eBay. Don't miss your chance: https://www.ebay.com/itm/175838680679. I may have got burnt on $1200 worth of Bogus Imposter Haygood autographs, but this Styles stuff is the real deal.)

Adams' version of events is supported by the Tom Dillard pic, the Stroud document, the fact she never encountered Truly and Baker (and vice versa) and Baker's observation of two white men hanging around the area Adams said Shelley and Lovelady were and at the same time, roughly 60 seconds after the shooting.
She is a totally credible witness of impeccable character.

Just for argument's sake though...
Let's say you do have some intelligence and can manage this rudimentary thought experiment, you must agree that the only way for Shelley and Lovelady to reach the area near the freight elevators within 60 seconds is to enter the building through the front entrance moments after the shooting.
You must agree, as part of the thought experiment of course, that taking Adams' testimony at face value would disprove your identification of Shelley and Lovelady in Darnell.

[Lance Payette]

Adams' version of events is supported by the Tom Dillard pic, the Stroud document, the fact she never encountered Truly and Baker (and vice versa) and Baker's observation of two white men hanging around the area Adams said Shelley and Lovelady were and at the same time, roughly 60 seconds after the shooting.
She is a totally credible witness of impeccable character.

Just for argument's sake though...
Let's say you do have some intelligence and can manage this rudimentary thought experiment, you must agree that the only way for Shelley and Lovelady to reach the area near the freight elevators within 60 seconds is to enter the building through the front entrance moments after the shooting.
You must agree, as part of the thought experiment of course, that taking Adams' testimony at face value would disprove your identification of Shelley and Lovelady in Darnell.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say I have vastly more intelligence than you and see where that goes  ...

Sure, I can agree to anything in the context of a thought experiment. If Shelley and Lovelady were on the TSBD steps when the shooting occurred and at the freight elevators seconds later, logic would dictate that they were teleported by aliens - no, strike that, that they walked back there through the front entrance.

The value of a thought experiment hinges to a large extent on its plausibility. Otherwise, of what use is it? This was the problem with your LBJ-Byrd-Cason-Shelley-Dougherty thought experiment. When you acknowledged that it couldn't account for Oswald, I think most folks sensed the thought air going out of your thought balloon. Poof.

I will admit I haven't read The Girl On the Stairs. However, is it correct that Vicki herself in that book disavows saying she saw Shelley and Lovelady and claiming that the relevant portion of her WC testimony doesn't even sound like her, as Roger Odisio states in this thread at the Ed Forum? https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/30023-vickie-adams-interview/. If that weren't sufficient, the thread opens by linking to a 1966 interview in which Vicki apparently claimed that she did see Shelley! Is Vicki's credibility hanging by a thread, or is that my imagination?

The plausibiity of your thought experiment also hinges on (1) Styles, who was there, either being flat wrong or lying for no apparent reason, and (2) the photo that clearly shows Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm Street extension not being Shelley and Lovelady, with fellow gung-ho CTer Bart Kamp having faked said photo for no apparent reason. All of this to prop up some elaborate conspiracy scenario that apparently requires two TSBD clucks like Shelley and Lovelady as well as the WC staff to be at least after-the-fact participants.

Pretty thin thought experiment gruel, it seems to me. Occam and I continue to prefer our version whereby Vicki actually does see Shelley and Lovelady a wee bit later than she recalled, which has the beauty of still allowing CTers to argue that the two cuties were teleported from the fourth floor by aliens and should have heard or encountered Oswald if he'd been coming down the stairs.

[Royell Storing]

Dan is ignoring that those two are exactly where they are supposed to be according to testimony after leaving the steps...

There's no point getting bogged down with everything that is wrong with this post but this last observation needs addressing.
Apparently it's me, ands not Brian, who is ignoring the WC testimony of Shelley and Lovelady.
Let's start with the fact that BOTH MEN testify that they didn't leave the steps for at least three minutes!!
How can they be on the extension seconds after the shooting??
I would really like to hear what Brian is going to make up off the top of his head to account for this.

BOTH MEN testify that, after three minutes, Gloria comes up to the steps, tells them about the shooting after which both of them make their way across the Elm Street extension to the "little, old island" (both men use exactly the same phrase to describe the concrete spur separating the Elm Streets), where they stopped "for a minute".

So, the image of the two men walking down the extension is taken 20 - 25 seconds after the shooting.
In this short span of time, according to Brian, Gloria has made her way back to the TSBD steps, told everyone about the shooting, both men have made their way across to the little old island, hung around there for a while, then made it half way down the extension before being caught on film.
Let's do him a favour and ignore the three minutes it takes Gloria to reach the steps and the time spent on the little, old island.
Even if we ignore all the testimony that Brian seems so willing to do, is it still physically possible for the two men to be so far down the extension, after the sequence of events described, in such a short span of time?
Let's be ultra kind to Brian and make it like some mad kind of tag race  being run at top speed:
1] Gloria sprints full tilt and makes it back to the steps within 15 seconds
2] She spits out a rapid-fire account of the shooting in 5 seconds
3] Shelley and Lovelady sprint across to the little old island - 3 seconds.
4] They stay there for 5 seconds
5] They then sprint to their positions on the Elm Street extension - another 3 seconds.

They still don't make it in time.
Even if we follow Brian's lead and ignore nearly every statement they made in their WC testimonies, Shelley and Lovelady still don't make it.

The reason for this is obvious - it's not Shelley and Lovelady on the Elm Street extension.
In reality, what happens is this
Shelley and Lovelady are on the steps at the time of the shooting.
Immediately after the shots Shelley runs out to the concrete spur where he encounters a distraught Gloria Calvery running the other way.
Both return to the front steps where Gloria tells everyone there about the shooting after which both Shelley and Lovelady make their way into the building through the front door.

Gloria reaches the steps in a matter seconds - not 3 minutes.
Both men do not then go across to the little, old island.
Both men do not wander along the extension.
Both men do not hang around the railroad yards.
Both men do not enter the building through the west door.
These are all lies told to hide their actual movements after the shooting.

Both men immediately enter the building and make their way towards the back of the first floor where they are seen by Vickie Adams about 60 seconds after the shooting.
Seconds later Baker and Truly arrive at the elevators where Baker notices two white men just hanging around. Clearly this is Shelley and Lovelady.



The image above shows the moment Gloria has reached the steps and is telling everyone about the shooting.
The man in front of her is Billy Lovelady.
Shelley, wearing his baggy black suit, is near the bottom of the steps after returning from the concrete spur.

     Based on the timeline of Office Baker above, Shelley/Lovelady have 35 seconds at this point to arrive at the TSBD 1st Floor Loading Dock. And, as the above still frame makes clear, Shelley/Lovelady are Not even moving toward the TSBD front door. PLus, the steps leading up to the landing/front door are Jammed Packed with people. Whenever they do start toward the TSBD front door, Shelley/Lovelady would Not be moving toward the front door in a straight line. Their advancing toward the front door would be obstructed. The same goes for their advancing through the TSBD Lobby. The 1 Minute Tick/Tock does Not permit Shelley/Lovelady to reach the freight elevator.  Adams claiming that it took her 1 Minute MAX to go from the window to the 1st floor, has to be wrong for her to see Shelley and Lovelady at the freight elevator.