What if the sixth floor had not been empty?

[Charles Collins]

Just thinking out loud again …

What struck me about Williams’ efforts to show he couldn’t have seen Oswald in the sniper’s nest is that he should have been able to see Rowland’s guy by the southwest window if there was any overlap in time. Because I’m stuck inside the house, I spent some time trying to put together a realistic scenario and had a heck of a time. The actual timing of what occurred is critical.

It's hard to determine exactly when the flooring crew actually went down. It appears some of them understandably may have been reluctant to admit they knocked off work earlier than usual. My best estimate would be 11:40-11:45, which is what some said.

No one really saw Oswald on the sixth floor before the crew knocked off. Williams said he might have seen him messing with boxes during the morning, but not near the sniper’s nest. This would have been consistent with Oswald’s order-filling work, and Williams was very unsure. The unreliable Dougherty said he encountered him at the boxes about 11 AM, routinely filling orders.

When the flooring crew went down, the consensus was that Oswald was near the east elevator on the fifth floor. He called out something about leaving the gate open when they got to the first floor.

Shelley was absolutely consistent in having seen Oswald working and standing near the telephone on the first floor around 11:50 (rather odd if Shelley was part of some conspiracy to frame him!). Piper spoke to him on the first floor at about noon, when Oswald said he was going up to lunch.

Everything suggests to me that Oswald was keeping up the appearance of business as usual until at least noon. This obviously would have been smart – make sure you’re seen working and not on the sixth floor. He could have assembled and stashed the rifle before the flooring crew started work, or just a short time before the assassination – it was not a big project.

Givens didn’t mention his sixth-floor encounter with Oswald until the WC. As a Black guy with a criminal record who'd left the TSBD, the last thing Givens needed was to have been alone with Oswald on the sixth floor. I see nothing suspicious about omitting the encounter until the WC.

Givens strongly suggests the crew left fairly early. He went downstairs, went to the bathroom, encountered Oswald when he went back up, and was still out of the TSBD at noon. One possibility is that he encountered Oswald before Oswald was seen by Shelley and Piper on the first floor. He reported Oswald walking toward the elevator from the area of the sniper’s nest with his clipboard in his hand. Oswald declined a ride down but said he’d be down shortly. This would be my guess – Oswald had gone from the fifth floor to the sixth via the stairs and encountered Givens before he (Oswald) went down.

Then we have Williams, another Black guy who understandably would have wanted to distance himself from seeing Oswald or anything suspicious on the sixth floor while he was eating his lunch. He said he could not see any part of the sniper’s nest area other than the top of the window as he ate his lunch – but he seemingly should have seen Rowland’s guy if the latter were over by the southwest window.

If Williams’ estimate of the time is pretty close, he could have arrived at the sixth floor just shortly after Oswald – say 3-5 minutes after noon - and could have left a few minutes before Rowland saw Oswald at the southwest window. Oswald would have been quiet in the sniper’s nest during this time and emerged after hearing Williams leaving.

I’m still a bit troubled by Rowland’s story. It seems very risky for Oswald to be standing at the southwest window with his rifle in that manner, and I’m not sure what he would be doing other than testing it as an alternative to the sniper’s nest. By that time – 12:15 or perhaps 12:20, he would have been pretty confident of being alone on the sixth floor and presumably could have heard anyone coming up.

I’m not, of course, factoring in any of the conspiracy-oriented discrepancies (such as having Piper on the sixth floor actually witnessing the shooting!). I’m trying to picture what actually occurred, with people perhaps being off on their time estimates by a critical few minutes here and there but not blatantly lying. Shelley seems to me a very good “time anchor” for Oswald being on the first floor just shortly before noon, which is not at all implausible.

Lance, it is entirely possible for LHO to have been standing where Rowland described and be blocked from BRW’s view as he sat where he said he ate his lunch and where his lunch remains were found and photographed. There was some stacks of boxes between the two positions. Some of them were high enough to block the view of LHO standing. All LHO needed to do was quietly get to that area and stand up without making enough noise for BRW to notice. The reason I think he might have risked exposing himself to view from outside (Rowland) is the commotion of the sirens, etc from the ambulance that happened at that particular time. LHO might have thought that it might have been the motorcade approaching.

I satisfied myself that the stacks of boxes blocked the view from BRW’s location by using my computer 3D model. I posted some images of this and those images at least quieted the arguments from one of the naysayers at that time. I will post some of them again if I can find them.

[Lance Payette]

Lance, it is entirely possible for LHO to have been standing where Rowland described and be blocked from BRW’s view as he sat where he said he ate his lunch and where his lunch remains were found and photographed. There was some stacks of boxes between the two positions. Some of them were high enough to block the view of LHO standing. All LHO needed to do was quietly get to that area and stand up without making enough noise for BRW to notice. The reason I think he might have risked exposing himself to view from outside (Rowland) is the commotion of the sirens, etc from the ambulance that happened at that particular time. LHO might have thought that it might have been the motorcade approaching.

I satisfied myself that the stacks of boxes blocked the view from BRW’s location by using my computer 3D model. I posted some images of this and those images at least quieted the arguments from one of the naysayers at that time. I will post some of them again if I can find them.

OK, good. The commotion from the sirens is a definite possibility. Or perhaps the rifle was actually stashed over on the west side Another possibility, which is what John seemed to be suggesting, is that Williams actually did see Oswald. The Rowland sighting sounds too much like Oswald to reject it completely. I have seen animations purporting to show that Williams would have had an unobstructed view of the location where Rowland saw Oswald, which is why I was having him leaving before Oswald emerged. I'd definitely be interested in your 3D model if you can locate it. A really accurate model or animation of what the sixth floor looked like on 11-22 seems difficult to find.

[Lance Payette]

FWIW, the Secret Service reconstruction film has some excellent shots of the interior or the sixth floor, including (in Part 2) a shot from the sniper's nest down toward the southwest window. Actually, both of these are quite interesting.

[Charles Collins]

OK, good. The commotion from the sirens is a definite possibility. Or perhaps the rifle was actually stashed over on the west side Another possibility, which is what John seemed to be suggesting, is that Williams actually did see Oswald. The Rowland sighting sounds too much like Oswald to reject it completely. I have seen animations purporting to show that Williams would have had an unobstructed view of the location where Rowland saw Oswald, which is why I was having him leaving before Oswald emerged. I'd definitely be interested in your 3D model if you can locate it. A really accurate model or animation of what the sixth floor looked like on 11-22 seems difficult to find.

I will start looking and see what I can find. My old computer died and some things were lost. So, I may need to just repeat the exercise.

As far as BRW seeing LHO goes, I think it is quite possible. I also think (along similar lines) that BRW could have actually been in the sniper's nest at one point. Hence Rowland's description of seeing someone in that window is possible. I could understand why BRW would be reluctant to divulge these things (if they are true). After all it would just be BRW and LHO who knew for sure. And LHO was no longer a factor (after 11/24/63).

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Buell Frazier said that Fritz threatened him if he, Frazier, didn't sign a confession. In fact, threatened to beat him.

I always wondered given the terrible racism at that time why they didn't coerce/intimidate the black workers (even others) to implicate Oswald. Like they allegedly did to Frazier. The black workers were, of course, particularly vulnerable to this. So force them to say they saw Oswald with a long package that day, that he expressed hatred towards JFK, they saw him steal some wrapping paper, even that they saw him (or heard someone) go down the stairs after the shooting. Anything. After all, the claim is that Oswald was railroaded, not given consul, evidence planted, he was a patsy. So what about the black workers?

But nothing. Nothing they said really implicated Oswald in any way. In any trial, they would likely be called as defense witnesses.

[Lance Payette]

Buell Frazier said that Fritz threatened him if he, Frazier, didn't sign a confession. In fact, threatened to beat him.

I always wondered given the terrible racism at that time why they didn't coerce/intimidate the black workers (even others) to implicate Oswald. Like they allegedly did to Frazier. The black workers were, of course, particularly vulnerable to this. So force them to say they saw Oswald with a long package that day, that he expressed hatred towards JFK, they saw him steal some wrapping paper, even that they saw him (or heard someone) go down the stairs after the shooting. Anything. After all, the claim is that Oswald was railroaded, not given consul, evidence planted, he was a patsy. So what about the black workers?

But nothing. Nothing they said really implicated Oswald in any way. In any trial, they would likely be called as defense witnesses.

Similar to what I said about Frazier - supposedly one of the key players in the conspiracy, but he places Oswald on the first floor just before noon every time he's interviewed. In fact, everyone from Truly on down apparently didn't get the Conspiracy Memo. Ditto with Ruth Paine.

[Charles Collins]

OK, good. The commotion from the sirens is a definite possibility. Or perhaps the rifle was actually stashed over on the west side Another possibility, which is what John seemed to be suggesting, is that Williams actually did see Oswald. The Rowland sighting sounds too much like Oswald to reject it completely. I have seen animations purporting to show that Williams would have had an unobstructed view of the location where Rowland saw Oswald, which is why I was having him leaving before Oswald emerged. I'd definitely be interested in your 3D model if you can locate it. A really accurate model or animation of what the sixth floor looked like on 11-22 seems difficult to find.

I couldn't find the images I generated during the earlier discussion a few years ago. I suspect they were lost with the old computer dying. I haven't tried yet to model the entire sixth floor with all the various stacks of boxes, etc. accurately located. I have only basically attempted to model the sniper's nest area. But I do have the entire basic outline of the TSBD building modeled. The software program is limited and I have to improvise a lot.

Here's some images that I think will at least show you the idea that seems to me to show how LHO could have stayed out of BRW's sight while standing approximately where Rowland described.

First, here's an image from Rowland's viewpoint angle that shows a character with a rifle back a bit from the western sixth floor TSBD window. The character is positioned to be looking in the direction of Rowland and the intersection of Main & Houston. I was impressed and satisfied that the same areas of the character that can be seen through the open part of the window is close to what Rowland said he saw.





Next is a screenshot from the video you provided a link to that shows stacks of boxes near the area that Rowland's rifle man was reportedly seen. I have drawn a red arrow to indicate the stack that I believe is relevant to this exercise. There are some DPD photos that were taken shortly after the assassination that show these boxes (and their positions) clearer. But I haven't yet located the DPD photos (I am not very well organized).






And next is an image that shows how LHO could have positioned himself relative to BRW's position so that he stayed hidden from BRW's viewpoint. In the top right frame (top floorplan view), the "virtual visitor" (aka: camera position) is positioned about where BRW indicated he ate his lunch. The rifle man is in the same position he is in the Rowland viewpoint image above. The stack of boxes effectively hide the rifle man from BRW's viewpoint as can be seen in the lower right frame. This model is rather crude at this point, but I believe that it shows the general idea, and that it could have happened this way.




Here is the same view as the BRW viewpoint above, but with the top three boxes made invisible. The boxes are the same size as the ones surrounding the sniper's nest. You can see the rifle man character is effectively hidden from BRW's viewpoint by the stack of boxes.