The deformation of CE-399 adds credibility to the SBT

[Tim Nickerson]

The pictures you've posted of the truly pristine bullet does not appear anywhere in the journal which you provided a link for - https://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/1995-Vol2No2.pdf

I was just wondering where the pics are from and how they relate to the experiment Fackler carried out as "a useful confirmation of the work done by Dr John Lattimer".

I got the composite photo from McAdams' site some years ago. I had thought that Gus Russo had published it in his "Live by the Sword" but that doesn't seem to be the case.

From Fackler's testimony during the 1992 mock trial:

"The bullet actually made a slightly greater hole than the one in Governor Connally's wrist. That's because the experiment bullet was actually going a little faster than the 900 feet [per second] that CE399 was travelling. The test bullet was non-deformed. It was not flattened in the least and had nowhere near the damage of CE399."

[David Von Pein]

Dr. Fackler's 1992 Report....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11_V0fGaOGHupUb_CK0FCpCs1buM-o7e-/view

[David Von Pein]

Related Discussions....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2016/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1157.html

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#CE399

[Michael T. Griffith]

Dr. Fackler's 1992 Report....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11_V0fGaOGHupUb_CK0FCpCs1buM-o7e-/view

This is downright comical and is so typical of the phony tests that people like Fackler will conduct to try to salvage the SBT.

First of all, not one of Fackler's test bullets passed through a simulated human neck and then destroyed 5 inches of rib bone while tearing through a simulated human chest before striking the cadaver radius bones. Not one. Let me repeat that so the phony nature of Fackler's test can sink in: Fackler made no effort to simulate a human neck, a human chest, and a rib bone. Not one of his bullets hit anything before they hit the cadaver radius bones. Fackler simply shot cadaver radius bones with bullets whose velocity had been lowered down to 1100-1300 FPS!

Are you kidding me? How can anyone cite this test with a straight face? Did you or any other SBT believer even bother to actually read Fackler's article on his SBT test? How, David, did you miss the fact that none of his test bullets hit anything before hitting the cadaver wrists?

Of course, Fackler rigged the test because he knew full well that if his test bullets first had to transit a human neck and then tear through a human chest and demolish 5 inches of rib bone in the process, the bullets would emerge markedly deformed, just as they did in the AAT test and in Lattimer's test.

I repeat again:

-- In Dr. Dolce's SBT test for the WC, even 6.5 mm FMJ bullets fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformity than CE 399.

-- In the 1967 CBS test, not one of the 6.5 mm FMJ bullets that merely passed through the 12-inch gelatin block before hitting cadaver wrists never had enough velocity to penetrate the simulated thigh, and some of them never even managed to exit the wrists.

-- In the 1992 AAT SBT test, a 6.5 mm FMJ bullet was fired into two gelatin blocks. The second gelatin block contained animal bones to simulate the shattering of a rib bone and the smashing of a wrist bone. The bullet transited the first gelatin block and penetrated deep into the second block and struck the animal bones. It emerged markedly more deformed than CE 399.

-- In Lattimer's SBT test, one of the test bullets was split at the nose in several places and was markedly deformed, much more deformed than CE 399, and this wasn't even one of the bullets that struck all three simulation objects! Lattimer threw away all the bullets that hit all three simulation objects. Gee, I wonder why.

[Michael T. Griffith]

This is downright comical and is so typical of the phony tests that people like Fackler will conduct to try to salvage the SBT.

First of all, not one of Fackler's test bullets passed through a simulated human neck and then destroyed 5 inches of rib bone while tearing through a simulated human chest before striking the cadaver radius bones. Not one. Let me repeat that so the phony nature of Fackler's test can sink in: Fackler made no effort to simulate a human neck, a human chest, and a rib bone. Not one of his bullets hit anything before they hit the cadaver radius bones. Fackler simply shot cadaver radius bones with bullets whose velocity had been lowered down to 1100-1300 FPS!

Are you kidding me? How can anyone cite this test with a straight face? Did you or any other SBT believer even bother to actually read Fackler's article on his SBT test? How, David, did you miss the fact that none of his test bullets hit anything before hitting the cadaver wrists?

Of course, Fackler rigged the test because he knew full well that if his test bullets first had to transit a human neck and then tear through a human chest and demolish 5 inches of rib bone in the process, the bullets would emerge markedly deformed, just as they did in the AAT test and in Lattimer's test.

I repeat again:

-- In Dr. Dolce's SBT test for the WC, even 6.5 mm FMJ bullets fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformity than CE 399.

-- In the 1967 CBS test, not one of the 6.5 mm FMJ bullets that merely passed through the 12-inch gelatin block before hitting cadaver wrists never had enough velocity to penetrate the simulated thigh, and some of them never even managed to exit the wrists.

-- In the 1992 AAT SBT test, a 6.5 mm FMJ bullet was fired into two gelatin blocks. The second gelatin block contained animal bones to simulate the shattering of a rib bone and the smashing of a wrist bone. The bullet transited the first gelatin block and penetrated deep into the second block and struck the animal bones. It emerged markedly more deformed than CE 399.

-- In Lattimer's SBT test, one of the test bullets was split at the nose in several places and was markedly deformed, much more deformed than CE 399, and this wasn't even one of the bullets that struck all three simulation objects! Lattimer threw away all the bullets that hit all three simulation objects. Gee, I wonder why.

I should add that Fackler's phony SBT test also failed to include a simulated human thigh and made no effort to see if any of his test bullets could penetrate a human thigh after shattering a cadaver radius bone.

Yet, SBT believers still cite Fackler's bogus test as "evidence" that the SBT is credible. Some even go further into fiction and claim that Fackler's test "proves" the SBT is true.

This reminds me of when Dr. Cyril Wecht challenged the other members of the HSCA FPP (1) to produce a single case where an FMJ bullet had done the damage attributed to CE 399 and emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with a loss of only 3-4 grains from its substance, and (2) to conduct a realistic SBT test. The other FPP members never did present a single case that resembled the SBT, and they refused to conduct an SBT test.





 

[Jack Nessan]

I should add that Fackler's phony SBT test also failed to include a simulated human thigh and made no effort to see if any of his test bullets could penetrate a human thigh after shattering a cadaver radius bone.

Yet, SBT believers still cite Fackler's bogus test as "evidence" that the SBT is credible. Some even go further into fiction and claim that Fackler's test "proves" the SBT is true.

This reminds me of when Dr. Cyril Wecht challenged the other members of the HSCA FPP (1) to produce a single case where an FMJ bullet had done the damage attributed to CE 399 and emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with a loss of only 3-4 grains from its substance, and (2) to conduct a realistic SBT test. The other FPP members never did present a single case that resembled the SBT, and they refused to conduct an SBT test.

This reminds me of when Dr. Cyril Wecht challenged the other members of the HSCA FPP (1) to produce a single case where an FMJ bullet had done the damage attributed to CE 399

Can it be assumed that Wecht's challenge would be specific to bullets designed similar to the carcano bullet with all the same flight characteristics before and after striking various mediums. 

Didn’t the carcano hit on several sides instead of all impacts occurring just directly point on. Is that not the reason that the bullet looks the way it does?

 
 
 
 

[Michael T. Griffith]

This reminds me of when Dr. Cyril Wecht challenged the other members of the HSCA FPP (1) to produce a single case where an FMJ bullet had done the damage attributed to CE 399

Can it be assumed that Wecht's challenge would be specific to bullets designed similar to the carcano bullet with all the same flight characteristics before and after striking various mediums.

Yes. As I said, "to produce a single case where an FMJ bullet had done the damage attributed to CE 399" and emerged with its lands and grooves intact and losing only 3-4 grains of its substance.

Didn’t the carcano hit on several sides instead of all impacts occurring just directly point on. Is that not the reason that the bullet looks the way it does?

The bullet that hit Connally's back destroyed 5 inches of rib bone before it exited his chest and before it allegedly smashed his right radius bone, exited the radius bone, and penetrated his left thigh. No bullet in any SBT test has done such damage and emerged looking anything like CE 399.

Even in the 1967 CBS SBT test, FMJ bullets that merely penetrated a 12-inch gelatin block before hitting a cadaver radius bone were unable to penetrate the simulated thigh, and many of them never even exited the cadaver radius bone. One of the expert forensic consultants for the CBS test, Dr. W. F. Enos, said the CBS test "disproved" the SBT and that the SBT was "highly improbable" (Mal Jay Hayman, Burying the Lead: The Media and the JFK Assassination, Trine Day LLC, 2019, pp. 214, 218).

[Jack Nessan]

Yes. As I said, "to produce a single case where an FMJ bullet had done the damage attributed to CE 399" and emerged with its lands and grooves intact and losing only 3-4 grains of its substance.

The bullet that hit Connally's back destroyed 5 inches of rib bone before it exited his chest and before it allegedly smashed his right radius bone, exited the radius bone, and penetrated his left thigh. No bullet in any SBT test has done such damage and emerged looking anything like CE 399.

Even in the 1967 CBS SBT test, FMJ bullets that merely penetrated a 12-inch gelatin block before hitting a cadaver radius bone were unable to penetrate the simulated thigh, and many of them never even exited the cadaver radius bone. One of the expert forensic consultants for the CBS test, Dr. W. F. Enos, said the CBS test "disproved" the SBT and that the SBT was "highly improbable" (Mal Jay Hayman, Burying the Lead: The Media and the JFK Assassination, Trine Day LLC, 2019, pp. 214, 218).

Sounds incredible but it really did happen. There has to be reasons it did take place.

Is there another case or is this the only one? If you know of another one cite it. 

Shooting a bullet full on into a wrist instead of yawing and tumbling produced what result?? Didn’t the bullet peel off the flesh along the rib bone while sliding sideways and then exited the chest sideways before it crashed into the wrist?