The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish

[Lance Payette]

I think the meaning of this thread has somehow got lost - 'The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish''
The lone gunmen 'theorists' are absolutely correct when they assert that Oswald would have been convicted. Factual evidence shows that it was his rifle, his fingerprints and had no alibi.  a slam dunk! But that was because the assassination was so well planned and executed -it wasn't 'sloppy and amateurish' at all.  Oswald had no idea he was being set up, and by whom, and is the reason he described himself as a 'patsy'. Lieing about the gun is probably what anyone would have done in the predicament Oswald found himself in. Shooting a police officer before he arrests him, which would with absolute certainty lead to his conviction and certain death would be a rational decision to make. There are some who suggest he was on his way to the Texas Theatre to meet up with his co-conspirators, but he was walking in the opposite direction, towards the Greyhound bus stop which would have taken him to Mexico, another logical and rational decision. All rationality was lost once he shot JD Tippit, he was already stressed, but this put him into complete panic mode, rushing from the scene, looking for somewhere to hide.

Ah, the fact that it APPEARS as sloppy and amateurish as a Keystone Cops flick directed by Curly, Larry and Moe is, in fact, PROOF that it was highly organized and professional! This reminds me of my theory that if I wanted to kill my neighbor Fred, I would do so in such a preposterously ghastly and depraved manner that the crime itself would be my insanity defense. The jurors would look at each other and say, "He HAD to be insane to make THAT mess. If he were sane, he would've simply shot him." You would have to take us through in much greater detail how you think the JFKA shows evidence of being organized and professional. Otherwise, it appears you're just saying "The very fact the conspirators did such a good job of making Oswald seem to be the lone gunman is proof of how clever and professional they were because we know he wasn't the lone gunman." It's that last part that's the problem.

[Zeon Mason]

I’ve got a new proposition that a  professional sniper WAS the gunman at the SE TSBD window, choosing this more difficult scenario of shooting at a moving target, because part of his contract /plan necessitated that Oswald had to be implicated as the suspect.

I see 2 possibilities:
A. this mission to frame Oswald was directed by some higher authority ordering the hit, which compelled the pro sniper to choose TSBD 6th floor.
B. The pro shooter was some rogue CIA pro who had a personal vendetta against JFK and Oswald as well.

In either case, the pro snipers primary mission was to terminate JFK so he chose to use his own precision rifle while preplanting the POS MC rifle in the boxes perhaps a day earlier or in the middle of the night when he was able easily get into the unsecured TSBD.

He fired 3 shots from the SE window, 1st was at Z224, a hit that went thru both JFK and JC. Not the kill shot though. So he aimed and tracked more carefully for the 2nd shot, and hit the kill shot 4.8 seconds later at Z313.

The 3rd shot was unaimed and fired as rapidly(2secs later ) as the gunman could  operate his better quality bolt action rifle  which he kept the barrel sticking  out the window as he did this last shot  (which hit curb near James Tague)

The reason to do this was to maximize the rifle barrel being seen stuck out the 6th floor SE window of TSBD to focus attention to that 6th floor window, where  3  MC shells were left the pro shooter (while picking up his own shells and his rifle) with him when he escaped from 6th floor probably using the west elevator.

This scenario preserves the Harold Norman witness having heard 3 shots fired and 3 shells hitting the floor)

[Royell Storing]

I think the meaning of this thread has somehow got lost - 'The Assassination was Sloppy and Amateurish''
The lone gunmen 'theorists' are absolutely correct when they assert that Oswald would have been convicted. Factual evidence shows that it was his rifle, his fingerprints and had no alibi.  a slam dunk! But that was because the assassination was so well planned and executed -it wasn't 'sloppy and amateurish' at all.  Oswald had no idea he was being set up, and by whom, and is the reason he described himself as a 'patsy'. Lieing about the gun is probably what anyone would have done in the predicament Oswald found himself in. Shooting a police officer before he arrests him, which would with absolute certainty lead to his conviction and certain death would be a rational decision to make. There are some who suggest he was on his way to the Texas Theatre to meet up with his co-conspirators, but he was walking in the opposite direction, towards the Greyhound bus stop which would have taken him to Mexico, another logical and rational decision. All rationality was lost once he shot JD Tippit, he was already stressed, but this put him into complete panic mode, rushing from the scene, looking for somewhere to hide.

   The SBT all by itself would get Oswald off. As they say at the ball yard, "It only takes 1". That  SBT stuff would convince at least 1 juror there was a conspiracy/frame job on 11/22/63. The SBT just does Not make sense to the common sense of Joe 6 Pack. 

[John Mytton]

I’ve got a new proposition that a  professional sniper WAS the gunman at the SE TSBD window, choosing this more difficult scenario of shooting at a moving target, because part of his contract /plan necessitated that Oswald had to be implicated as the suspect.

I see 2 possibilities:
A. this mission to frame Oswald was directed by some higher authority ordering the hit, which compelled the pro sniper to choose TSBD 6th floor.
B. The pro shooter was some rogue CIA pro who had a personal vendetta against JFK and Oswald as well.

In either case, the pro snipers primary mission was to terminate JFK so he chose to use his own precision rifle while preplanting the POS MC rifle in the boxes perhaps a day earlier or in the middle of the night when he was able easily get into the unsecured TSBD.

He fired 3 shots from the SE window, 1st was at Z224, a hit that went thru both JFK and JC. Not the kill shot though. So he aimed and tracked more carefully for the 2nd shot, and hit the kill shot 4.8 seconds later at Z313.

The 3rd shot was unaimed and fired as rapidly(2secs later ) as the gunman could  operate his better quality bolt action rifle  which he kept the barrel sticking  out the window as he did this last shot  (which hit curb near James Tague)

The reason to do this was to maximize the rifle barrel being seen stuck out the 6th floor SE window of TSBD to focus attention to that 6th floor window, where  3  MC shells were left the pro shooter (while picking up his own shells and his rifle) with him when he escaped from 6th floor probably using the west elevator.

This scenario preserves the Harold Norman witness having heard 3 shots fired and 3 shells hitting the floor)

Hi Zeon,

Your alternate theories get more and more complicated.

How about the simplest theory that satisfies all your possibilities.

Oswald wrapped his rifle in brown paper and took it to work and took three shots to kill the President.

Oswald in the Marines initially qualified as a Sharpshooter and being a little rusty took three shots but an Expert Assassin would have been successful with only 1 shot and would not risk taking three shots over many seconds because the SS could have shielded Kennedy or Jackie could have moved JFK out of the way.

What do some Marine Officers say about Oswald's Marine shooting abilities.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on the tests of Mr. Oswald shown by those documents, how would you characterize his ability as a marksman?
Sergeant ZAHM. I would say in the Marine Corps he is a good shot, slightly above average, and as compared to the average male of his age throughout the civilian, throughout the United States, that he is an excellent shot.

How about the question of Oswald's capabilities to take the head shot?

Mr. SPECTER - I now show you a document marked as Commission Exhibit No. 902, which characterizes what was believed to have been the shot which struck President Kennedy in the head at a distance from rifle in window to the President of 265.3 feet, with the photograph through rifle scope identified on the document being the view which the marksman had of the President at the time the President was struck in the head, and I ask you again for an opinion as to the ease or difficulty of that shot, taking into consideration the capabilities of Mr. Oswald as a marksman, evidenced by the Marine Corps documents on him.
Major ANDERSON - I consider it to be not a particularly difficult shot at this short range, and that Oswald had full capabilities to make such a shot.

Then lastly, what was the difficulties of Oswald with his equipment of taking the Dealey Plaza shot?

Mr. SPECTER. How would you characterize that, as a difficult, not too difficult, easy, or how would you characterize that shot?
Sergeant ZAHM. With the equipment he had and with his ability, I consider it a very easy shot.




Oswald's "POS rifle" was at least as accurate as the then current American M-14.

Mr. EISENBERG. I should ask first if you are familiar with this weapon.
I have handed the witness Commission Exhibit 139.
Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. We fired this weapon from a machine rest for round-to-round dispersion. We fired exactly 20 rounds in this test, and the dispersion which we measured is of conventional magnitude, about the same that we get with our present military rifles, and the standard deviation of dispersion is .29 mil.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is a fraction of a degree?
Mr. SIMMONS. A mil is an angular measurement. There are 17.7 mils to a degree.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do I understand your testimony to be that this rifle is as accurate as the current American military rifles?
Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. As far as we can determine from bench-rest firing.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would you consider that to be a high degree of accuracy?
Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, the weapon is quite accurate. For most small arms, we discover that the round- to-round dispersion is of the order of three-tenths of a mil. We have run into some unusual ones, however, which give us higher values, but very few which give us smaller values, except in selected lots of ammunition.
Mr. McCLOY. You are talking about the present military rifle--will you designate it?
Mr. SIMMONS. The M-14.

JohnM

[Royell Storing]

 I thought the general theory was that Oswald did Not use the scope on the Carcano to fire shots. And here we got Specter asking questions about how easy the shot is using the scope? And today we got Max Holland claiming Oswald fired a shot while in a standing position? This Oswald story continues to radically change from the  that Specter was peddling.

[John Mytton]

I thought the general theory was that Oswald did Not use the scope on the Carcano to fire shots. And here we got Specter asking questions about how easy the shot is using the scope? And today we got Max Holland claiming Oswald fired a shot while in a standing position? This Oswald story continues to radically change from the  that Specter was peddling.

I thought the general theory was that Oswald did Not use the scope on the Carcano to fire shots.

"General theory" LOL

And here we got Specter asking questions about how easy the shot is using the scope?

Oswald's rifle was discovered with scope attached, so wouldn't he ask questions about the scope? Doh!

And today we got Max Holland claiming Oswald fired a shot while in a standing position?

So what?

This Oswald story continues to radically change from the  that Specter was peddling.

Wow, what an overreaction. Specter was simply exploring what happened and experts overwhelmingly agreed that not only was Oswald's rifle capable but Oswald's Marine experience gave him the ability to easily carry out the assassination.



Mr. SPECTER. Could you characterize for me in some manner your experience then with telescopic sights in the number that you have used or duration of time where you have used telescopic sights?
Sergeant ZAHM. Well, from my own experience, and it is true that the higher powered telescopes are used in the particular type of firing we are doing right now, deliberate slow fire at extreme ranges of 600 and 1,000 yards. We use 12-power to 20-power telescopes. These are unsuitable for moving targets or closer ranges from unsteady positions, because the power of the telescope tends to magnify the shooter's movements and makes a hold more difficult.
In the lower-powered telescope such as four-power telescope at closer ranges ranging from 50 to 200 yards, this is an ideal type of weapon for moving targets or type of telescope for moving targets, and for the closer ranges, things being inherent in the focus of the scopes when you get in too close, the higher power type scopes tend to blur out to a certain degree.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you characterize the increased efficiency of a marksman in using a four-power scope as opposed to using only the iron sights?
Sergeant ZAHM. Well, with the iron sights you have more room for error in the fact that you have three variables. You have your targets, your front sight and your rear sight, and you have the possibility of an error in alining the sights, and then you also have the possibility of an error in the sights on the targets, which we refer to as the sight picture. Looking through aperture or even the open buckhorn type sights, when you are concentrating on your sights, your targets tend to become blurred because of the close focus of your eye in alining the sights.
Now this as opposed to telescope of a four-power nature it is a natural characteristic of a telescope when you are looking for your target, it is a natural thing to center your target in the view of your telescope, and in the center view of your telescope is the aiming crosshairs. This is only one point.
If you get this one point, the crosshairs in the proper relationship to your target, this is an aid in locating, finding your target, because you are using the scope in the sense as binoculars. Once you have found your target, your sights are already alined, and then through good trigger manipulation the shot should be well on the target.
Mr. SPECTER. With respect to rapid-fire shooting, how does the telescopic sight on a four-power scope work out?
Sergeant ZAHM. Four-power being a reasonably low-power scope, it has a fairly broad field of view. By this we mean it covers a reasonable amount of area out at about 100 yards, about I think probably around 30 feet or so. Using the scope, rapidly working a bolt and using the scope to relocate your target quickly and at the same time when you locate that target you identify it and the crosshairs are in close relationship to the point you want to shoot at, it just takes a minor move in aiming to bring the crosshairs to bear, and then it is a quick squeeze.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize it as easy, difficult, or how would you characterize it to use a scope, a four-power scope in rapid fire?
Sergeant ZAHM. A real aid, an extreme aid.
Mr. SPECTER. Suppose in focusing in through the four-power scope you do not get a completely circular view, but instead get a partial view with a corner of the view being blacked out because you don't have the scope in direct alinement, but you are still able to see a sufficient amount of daylight through the scope so that you can see where the crosshairs line up on target. Is it in sufficient alinement at that juncture to permit the marksman to shoot accurately?
Sergeant ZAHM. Yes.

[Royell Storing]

  Point is, why is Specter asking questions about how easy the shots were when using the Carcano Scope, if Oswald did Not use the scope? Or, maybe at that point in time Specter believed that Oswald DID use the scope. The Oswald story has changed many, many, times. The most recent tinkering being the Max Holland unproven  . An elapsed firing time of roughly 11 seconds now? Almost DOUBLE the original 6 seconds elapsed firing time which stood for better than 50 yrs. If the JFK Limo was under fire for 11 continuous seconds and the SS Failed to return fire, we now have a serious problem with the SS.