Toni Glover

[Royell Storing]

 You guys have the time stamping wrong. The JFK Limo is almost directly in front of those old ladies. This would mean the hanky is probably being waved at the JFK Limo. Phil Willis stepping back onto the curb area means he is about to snap Willis 5.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Toni, one of the items that remains unsolved is the timing of the first shot. I have seen your latest SFM interview and remember that you said that thought it was a backfire due to all the nearby motorcycles and other noise. I believe you have also said that the limo had gone out of your sight when the first shot was heard. What I would like to ask you is about any specific reactions, from the people near you, due to the first shot, that you might have noticed and remember.

Here is a GIF clip from the Zapruder film that was prepared by Jerry Organ. It shows some reactions that some of us believe might be due to the first shot.



In the above clip we see the lady in the gold jacket appear to suddenly jump and then raise her hand to her mouth like a lot of people do when surprised, etc. Also on the left side (not circled) is a lady who at the very beginning spins her head around extremely quickly and then turns her head back around and keeps on walking. On the right side near the bottom are two older ladies who appear to be pointing up towards the window where the shots were fired from. There are some other subtle reactions that Jerry Organ circled.

Anyway, I am wondering if you might remember any specific reactions due to the first shot that might could be seen in the photographic record. Please let us know. Thanks!

The jfk limo would have been out of sight of Toni at Z189, blocked by the large high concrete pillar near the water feature (as per my copy of the Dealey Plaza platt)(& as per my copy of someone's estimates of the progress of the jfk limo).
Thus according to Toni the giff & reactions (which starts at say Z164 & ends at say Z194) were before the first shot.
Anyhow, we know that Oswald fired at about pseudo Z105 to Z110, which accords with reactions at Z164 to Z194 (but an early shot at Z105-Z110 duznt accord with Toni's memory).

If the jfk limo went out of sight (at say Z189)(behind the large pillar), then it would have to emerge into sight before Z313 if Toni saw the headshot.
The platt etc suggests that the jfk limo emerges at Z230 (thus jfk was hidden from Toni from Z189 to Z230).
A modern street view shows a clear view from Toni's pedestal to the jfk limo to the left of the large pillar. The view was probly much the same in 1963.
Did Toni ever mention that the jfk limo emerged into sight just before the headshot?

https://www.instantstreetview.com/@32.779324,-96.808041,234.41h,8.7p,1.16z,hiw1Fs3ERc35ZKiXEV3Jig

[Dan O'meara]

It's not rocket science.
Toni's recollection of the limo being out of sight at the time of the first shot rules out a first shot before z180.
We can add that to the mountain of evidence ruling out a first shot before z222

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

It's not rocket science.
Toni's recollection of the limo being out of sight at the time of the first shot rules out a first shot before z180.
We can add that to the mountain of evidence ruling out a first shot before z222

Yes before Z180. Or/& before Z189.
And in 1963 there was a large bush next to the large pillar hence that bush might have blocked Toni's good sight of the limo at say Z170 or even Z160.
But Oswald's first shot (which ricocheted offa the overhead signal mast arm)(actually i reckon offa a guy rod holding the arm) was at pseudo Z105 (Holland) to Z110 (me myself).

Here we have jfk's view of Toni at pseudo Z105-Z110 (Oswald's first shot).
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@32.779412,-96.808293,108.17h,-7.21p,1.16z,SNgD1Neq80EhkxhzBUAD2g

JFK's view of Toni at approx Z189 when view is blocked by large pillar (& bushes praps).
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@32.779283,-96.808446,57.54h,-12.89p,1.16z,yeTnnTSrpc8DbLCP_vIEcg

View back to Toni from about Z323, ie just after headshot at Z313 marked by X.
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@32.778992,-96.808705,35.82h,-8.53p,2.16z,bbfZuJu2he5m6pilWp03vg

Satellite view.
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@32.779171,-96.808902,20z,2t

[Charles Collins]

The jfk limo would have been out of sight of Toni at Z189, blocked by the large high concrete pillar near the water feature (as per my copy of the Dealey Plaza platt)(& as per my copy of someone's estimates of the progress of the jfk limo).
Thus according to Toni the giff & reactions (which starts at say Z164 & ends at say Z194) were before the first shot.
Anyhow, we know that Oswald fired at about pseudo Z105 to Z110, which accords with reactions at Z164 to Z194 (but an early shot at Z105-Z110 duznt accord with Toni's memory).

If the jfk limo went out of sight (at say Z189)(behind the large pillar), then it would have to emerge into sight before Z313 if Toni saw the headshot.
The platt etc suggests that the jfk limo emerges at Z230 (thus jfk was hidden from Toni from Z189 to Z230).
A modern street view shows a clear view from Toni's pedestal to the jfk limo to the left of the large pillar. The view was probly much the same in 1963.
Did Toni ever mention that the jfk limo emerged into sight just before the headshot?

https://www.instantstreetview.com/@32.779324,-96.808041,234.41h,8.7p,1.16z,hiw1Fs3ERc35ZKiXEV3Jig

Did Toni ever mention that the jfk limo emerged into sight just before the headshot?

Yes, in the latest SFM interview (which I believe Duncan provided a link to earlier in this thread) Toni describes seeing the head shot by leaning a bit to her left to see around the pillar. Also, from Zapruder’s camera view, James Hackerott showed us that Toni’s left arm can be seen. So I don’t think that there is any question about it, this appears to be a fact.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Did Toni ever mention that the jfk limo emerged into sight just before the headshot?

Yes, in the latest SFM interview (which I believe Duncan provided a link to earlier in this thread) Toni describes seeing the head shot by leaning a bit to her left to see around the pillar. Also, from Zapruder’s camera view, James Hackerott showed us that Toni’s left arm can be seen. So I don’t think that there is any question about it, this appears to be a fact.

Ok yes that looks ok.
A problem is that Toni's view of jfk's head might be blocked/affected by the standing agents in/on Queen Mary (the follow up limo) plus the semi-standing SSA Hickey (who fired the fatal AR15 shot) plus the upturned vizors on QM.
Ok, i had a look at the platt. The only impediment to Toni's view of jfk at Z313 is the upturned vizors on QM.

[Royell Storing]

  I am Not sure why some of you wantta get into "mights" and "maybes". As Joe Friday used to say, "Just the Facts mam, just the Facts".  This shoulda/woulda stuff is "chasing your tail" worthy.