Walk me through this, curtain rod fans

[Michael Capasse]

I absolutely do not start with any preset conclusion that the package contained the rifle.

You absolutely do and it is in every post you have written about it.

The fact is that my attempt to arrive at the most rational, coherent, plausible, evidence-based and reasonable-inference-based explanations LEADS ME to the conviction that the package contained the disassembled rifle. I invite you to give us an analysis that is equally comprehensive and equally (or at least reasonably) plausible. Can you do it?

"...most rational, coherent, plausible, evidence-based and reasonable-inference-based explanations..."

Sorry, I don't waste my time with tests or nutter challenges
  You only have to prove Lee Oswald killed John Kennedy.

[Lance Payette]

Frazier, said he had no reason not to believe him, because Lee had never lied to him before.  Well then, Lee had better make a package that looks like curtain rods. Not one to be held like a soldier walking with a rifle. Buell, has always maintained the package was tucked under his armpit. That could not be the gun. Disassembled, the rifle is 34.8 inches long. It would go past his ear.

Here is Frazier demonstrating what he saw and did not see that morning.  It was not the rifle.

OK, that's a substantive point. It appears you are agreeing with me that Oswald would not have carried the assembled rifle in the package. If he was going to carry the rifle, I think we can agree that the disassembled rifle would be more "curtain rods like" than would the assembled one. I believe Oswald did make a package that looked and sounded as much like curtain rods as he could make the Carcano look and sound. Again, Randle's description of a heavy, bulky package that was wider at one end scarcely sounds like curtain rods.

Yes, I have seen the video where Frazier does his demonstration. I don't happen to believe the protruding end was at the top. I believe it was at the bottom. Because Oswald was trying to make the package as inconspicuous as possible, I believe he probably did wedge it under his armpit and hold it close to his side. My Odyssey putter happens to be 34.5" When I wedge the grip under my armpit and hold the putter tight to my side, it quite easily lays in a position where, from behind, it could give the appearance that it was cupped in my fingers. In every demonstration, Frazier has had the package cupped in the ends of the fingers, not in the palm.

Again: If you want to allow this eyewitness observation by Frazier to drive the bus, then you need to answer all the other questions and improbabilities raised by the explanation that the package contained curtain rods.

[Charles Collins]

This is meant to be a rough idea for how the assembled rifle would fit in the bag. I have not tried to be exact with the measurements due to the apparent partially rolled up closed end of the bag. It appears to me that the open end of the bag was crumpled closed around the muzzle end of the rifle. We can also see a few other crumpled zones that seem to match up with likely points where the package might have been held. The image of the bag is from a photo of it being taken out of the TSBD on 11/22/63. A hold on the package while letting a few inches of the exposed end of the muzzle extend inside his jacket (with the large sleeves per BWF) might be the way LMR described seeing it being carried. It would tend to look a little shorter to LMR if carried the way I just described above. LHO had an opportunity to arrange the rifle in the back seat before BWF ever saw it. Stuffing the muzzle end into the crevice between the seat bottom and the seat back and pointing away from BWF's driving position would tend to make the package appear shorter to BWF. Carrying it into the TSBD with BWF well behind him, LHO could have had the muzzle end possibly inside his jacket in front of his left shoulder. From a distance and behind it might appear to be tucked into his right underarm pit.

[Michael Capasse]

This is meant to be a rough idea for how the assembled rifle would fit in the bag. I have not tried to be exact with the measurements due to the apparent partially rolled up closed end of the bag. It appears to me that the open end of the bag was crumpled closed around the muzzle end of the rifle. We can also see a few other crumpled zones that seem to match up with likely points where the package might have been held. The image of the bag is from a photo of it being taken out of the TSBD on 11/22/63. A hold on the package while letting a few inches of the exposed end of the muzzle extend inside his jacket (with the large sleeves per BWF) might be the way LMR described seeing it being carried. It would tend to look a little shorter to LMR if carried the way I just described above. LHO had an opportunity to arrange the rifle in the back seat before BWF ever saw it. Stuffing the muzzle end into the crevice between the seat bottom and the seat back and pointing away from BWF's driving position would tend to make the package appear shorter to BWF. Carrying it into the TSBD with BWF well behind him, LHO could have had the muzzle end possibly inside his jacket in front of his left shoulder. From a distance and behind it might appear to be tucked into his right underarm pit.

It would go past his ear. - look at the picture

[Michael Capasse]

OK, that's a substantive point. It appears you are agreeing with me that Oswald would not have carried the assembled rifle in the package. If he was going to carry the rifle, I think we can agree that the disassembled rifle would be more "curtain rods like" than would the assembled one.

I don't agree with that at all. He only shortens the rifle by 5 inches when disassembled. It still looks like a fishing rod, baseball bat or a RIFLE.
Curtain rods are collapsible. Frazier never suspected anything but curtain rods.

Yes, I have seen the video where Frazier does his demonstration. I don't happen to believe the protruding end was at the top. I believe it was at the bottom.

A golf club is very easy. It is a pole. Demonstrate how one can hold a 5-6 inch wide package along the body (not gripped at the bottom) and
bend your knees and walk normal. Frazier was sure it was tucked under the arm and cupped at the bottom.

Mr. BALL - You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - You mean one end of it under the armpit?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under your arm like that.

Mr. BALL - And he had the lower part--
Mr. FRAZIER - The other part with his right hand.

Mr. BALL - Right hand?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - He carried it then parallel to his body?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right, straight up and down.

Representative FORD - Under his right arm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes.

and the bottom:
Mr. FRAZIER - I didn't pay much attention, but when I did, I say, he had this part down here,
like the bottom would be short he had cupped in his hand like that...".

Again: If you want to allow this eyewitness observation by Frazier to drive the bus, then you need to answer all the other questions and improbabilities raised by the explanation that the package contained curtain rods.

I don't NEED to answer anything
When did I say the package contained curtain rods?

[Charles Collins]

It would go past his ear. - look at the picture

Not when held diagonally across the body (think of the hypotenuse of a right triangle). I have a ~40" rifle and relatively short arms. When held like that, the muzzle of the rifle is in front of my left shoulder as I described earlier.

[Michael Capasse]

Not when held diagonally across the body (think of the hypotenuse of a right triangle). I have a ~40" rifle and relatively short arms. When held like that, the muzzle of the rifle is in front of my left shoulder as I described earlier.

It was straight up & down

Mr. BALL - You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - You mean one end of it under the armpit?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under your arm like that.

Mr. BALL - And he had the lower part--
Mr. FRAZIER - The other part with his right hand.

Mr. BALL - Right hand?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - He carried it then parallel to his body?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right, straight up and down.

Representative FORD - Under his right arm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes

[Charles Collins]

It was straight up & down

Mr. BALL - You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - You mean one end of it under the armpit?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under your arm like that.

Mr. BALL - And he had the lower part--
Mr. FRAZIER - The other part with his right hand.

Mr. BALL - Right hand?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - He carried it then parallel to his body?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right, straight up and down.

Representative FORD - Under his right arm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes

With the right hand slightly away from the body, the portion of the package that could be seen from well behind might appear to be tucked under the armpit. However when viewed from in front the muzzle is in front of the left shoulder.