Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.

[Royell Storing]

Steve, Thanks for posting that Hughes clip.  I'll look over it repeatedly to see if I can discern anything notable.

I'm with you, it was really bad luck the filming stopped when it did. Just a few more seconds and we would likely have answers to a whole slew of questions.

    This stuff about movement in that window started way back when with Groden. As with almost all of these type claims, you need to consider that maybe they are looking at a better definition image than we are. Or, maybe they have the means to "beef" the image definition up. That said, I personally do Not see whatever movement they are claiming is on the other side of the window.

[Andrew Mason]

Recent discussions regarding the sniper (possibly awkwardly) standing versus sitting or kneeling for an early shot taken about 9 seconds before Z133 (Z124H) prompted me to use my 3D model to test a sitting positon similar to my Z223 model. I found that a slight rotation at the waist of about 5 degrees along with head,  neck and arm adjustments allows a smooth transisiton through Z124H to Z223 and Z313 positions. Attached are four views from Z124H - Z223 including the models point of view from his left eye.

Your view of the President's car emerging from under the oak tree relative to the lamp post is a bit off when compared to the Secret Service film taken on December 2, 1963:


The frame I used for comparison is from the film is taken just before the car position in this photo found at CE875 at 17H884.

[Andrew Mason]

Looking at Andrew’s last examples of Z frames raises a probability ? of how likely JC having been supposedly hit at Z224 by a 6.5 mm ball nosed bullet passing thru his chest cavity cracking rib bone then thru his wrist and shattering that bone, could have remained erect, let alone turn around to look at JFK for that duration of about 3 secs?

Would it take 3 secs for JC to finally feel pain enough to fall back in Mrs Cs lap?

Or is it more likely that if JC was hit at Z270 or so , the pain would have been more immediately felt in just 0.5 secs and thus JC falling back was closer in sync with that pain?

Good point. If z230-270 is not where JBC turns to try to look at JFK before he was hit in the back, the only other possible place is the half a second while JBC was obscured by the Stemmons sign.

[Andrew Mason]

I don’t have Thompson’s latest book, but if I’m not mistaken Thompson believes there were 4 shots, now having the last one fired from the Depository striking around z327.

I had to look back at my notes, but what I was referring to was related to the graph of Thompson’s data sourced from his first book, Six Seconds in Dallas, p.25, where he tabulated the number of shots. Awhile back I had used that data along with related data provided by BBN to the HSCA (report 4043), to look at what were the number of shots summarized for/by the folks who claimed there were at least 4 shots taken with one from the grassy knoll.

What bothered me at the time was that the HSCA had a report on the number of shots, but really didn’t seem to mention it, and rather chose to made the big splash with the statement from data on the acoustic static, where you could hear no shots, but claimed there was about a 95 probability that there were 4 shots. Both the HSCA and Thompson agree on 4 shots.

However both of their shot data summaries indicate, when tabulated to compare < 4 shots to > 4 shots, that nearly 95% of their reported witness data who reported audibly hearing shots, reported less than 4 shots. What it appears the HSCA concluded to do was to promote the diametric opposite of what the shot count data they had in hand indicated.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aHTdtI3rELdqrwSJZSPqZooEQ5Ctz8HC/view?usp=sharing

I haven't seen his latest book either.  But Thompson concluded in his book "Six Seconds in Dallas" that the last two shots occurred at exactly the same time (z312-z313 and z312-314) from different locations so that is how he explains that most heard only three shots.  This might be a handy reference (Six Seconds in Dallas at p. 137):

[Charles Collins]

There seems to be some confusion about the minimum limo miss at ~ z124 I have been talking about and the traffic mast causing the miss at ~z107.

The minimum limo miss is described at this link below with the middle picture representing the limo at ~z124.
 
At this point the limo has significantly passed the traffic mast. This type of minimum miss strike location also matched what Faye Chism said.

This link below was used to estimate the instantaneous rifle deviation, i.e. how far off from being perfectly aimed using the iron sights it would momentarily have to be off target to miss the limo, when the first shot missing the president’s head was estimated at 36”. The picture at the top was found to just to help convey the geometry of the measurement points. The result was that the aim only had to be off target by about a half an inch to miss the limo.

I later made an estimate using oa at 107 ft to get some angle estimates. If it helps, one estimate of the angle down from horizontal at the sniper nest to the trajectory going to limo was about 33.7 deg, and upwards from ground/limo to the nest would be about 32.8  deg.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hZEgKoRdXBBpzrLArLUZh9JsNA3oIE_E/view?usp=sharing

Thanks Brian, yes I used the Roberdeau map which is a straight down view that shows the line from the window to the Z124 position crossing the traffic light. However, that is not the same as a view from the sniper’s window. My mistake. Thanks for the correction.

I also misspoke regarding what angle I was describing when I said down from level at the sniper’s nest window to the limo. I should have said up from straight (vertically) down. I was also only considering how far away from the building (perpendicular to the south wall) in an effort to find the difference required in aiming the Z133 shot versus the Z124 shot. So this wasn’t an effort to be anything other than a rough idea. Here is how it calculated using only a perpendicular distance from the building where 60’ is the height of the window above the street and 71’ is the horizontal distance from the building:




I suppose I should have used both the perpendicular distances and the distances down the street to the the actual distances. If I had done that I think that it should have been ~75’ for the Z124 shot, and ~81’ for the Z133 shot. Again these are only for a rough idea and not intended to be totally accurate.

[Brian Roselle]

I haven't seen his latest book either.  But Thompson concluded in his book "Six Seconds in Dallas" that the last two shots occurred at exactly the same time (z312-z313 and z312-314) from different locations so that is how he explains that most heard only three shots.  This might be a handy reference (Six Seconds in Dallas at p. 137):

That is a good summary, Thanks.

I did not recall he had 3 shooters in his early tally. I now wonder if the San Franciso Chronicle article I referenced earlier was right when saying 5 shots with 3 shooters. His current scenario may still be 4 shots with 3 shooters where he just moved the TSBD head shot from 313 to around z327 now making it the last shot in “The Last Second in Dallas”.

I see his first shot noted at around z210 was consistent with what the Warren Commission favored, but didn’t make a firm conclusion on. It makes sense with the first book name. (313-210)/18.3 = 5.6 seconds or rounded off to “Six Seconds in Dallas”.

[Brian Roselle]

Thanks Brian, yes I used the Roberdeau map which is a straight down view that shows the line from the window to the Z124 position crossing the traffic light. However, that is not the same as a view from the sniper’s window. My mistake. Thanks for the correction.

I also misspoke regarding what angle I was describing when I said down from level at the sniper’s nest window to the limo. I should have said up from straight (vertically) down. I was also only considering how far away from the building (perpendicular to the south wall) in an effort to find the difference required in aiming the Z133 shot versus the Z124 shot. So this wasn’t an effort to be anything other than a rough idea. Here is how it calculated using only a perpendicular distance from the building where 60’ is the height of the window above the street and 71’ is the horizontal distance from the building:




I suppose I should have used both the perpendicular distances and the distances down the street to the the actual distances. If I had done that I think that it should have been ~75’ for the Z124 shot, and ~81’ for the Z133 shot. Again these are only for a rough idea and not intended to be totally accurate.

I know my measurements are necessarily estimates so are good for estimated, not exact, results.

How I made the estimates I gave you for the first shot may look a little different than yours, so there would be some variability expected. I used Google Earth Pro, which I think was free, to draw a 3D path option available.

Starting with a click at the snipers nest I went to the road around were I expected the bullet hit and clicked there. At each subsequent click it gives you a total path length so I then clicked on the base of the TSBD below the snipers nest and then back up to the snipers nest. This path method is supposed to give cumulative 3D distances along the path or triangle sides here, and using distances in the same manner you did, I used the triangle side lengths in https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/geometry-plane/triangle-law-of-cosines.php in case paths I draw don’t have a right angle in them.

The clicks may be off a little, but I believe the method is accurate enough to get close. If I ever find out otherwise, I will change methods. For the picture here the path lengths it came back with were 107.2 ft direct bullet flight, 89.52 ft from there back to the base of the building, and 58.1 ft. back up to to the start just below the window to basically close the triangle.