Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.

[James Hackerott]

I tested James’ virtual model’s position in my actual model that I can personally be in and aim a rifle with similar dimensions to the Carcano found on the sixth floor of the TSBD. The results are:

1.  If I kneel on my left knee up close to or against the box below the window and lean towards the metal conduit and the window, I can see the Z133 target similar to what James’ model shows.

2.  When I try to aim the rifle at the Z133 target, it places the butt of the stock well above my right shoulder (similar to how the line of sight goes well above James’ models’ right shoulder.

3. Therefore, for me, it was impossible to get my eye over the top of the stock and inline with the sights on the rifle. So, I do not see this idea as a realistic possibility.

4. As I have said before, standing straight up (no awkward leaning is needed) and aiming the rifle at the Z133 target works. But the issues with the standing idea are that it is significantly less stable than a seated and supported position. Also, it takes time to reposition to a seated position from a standing position. And the space available between the stacks of boxes is very limited which makes the process of repositioning even slower and more awkward. Plus the descriptions from witnesses who said they saw him just seconds before the shots all indicate he was seated (even if one of them did assume otherwise). When sitting in the actual model it becomes obvious how comfortable the seated (on the seat box) position shots (during the time after the limo emerges from behind the tree) are. And that the design of the nest was apparently made for those shots. If you do not believe me on this point, please, please, please, make one for yourself and I believe you will then agree.

Charles, thank you for your input.  I don't have a 3D rifle model and even if I did it would be very difficult to place and manipulate in the hands of my model action figures. I made a temporary scope and placed it 2” above and parallel with the bore line-of- sight. Then I could articulate the model such that the scope would meet with the right eye. Unfortunately, that was not enough to guarantee the butt of the rifle was reasonably positioned or even if the eye had a clean view through the scope. I really appreciate your help and am glad you were able to use your physical model to help with this thread.

[Charles Collins]

Charles, thank you for your input.  I don't have a 3D rifle model and even if I did it would be very difficult to place and manipulate in the hands of my model action figures. I made a temporary scope and placed it 2” above and parallel with the bore line-of- sight. Then I could articulate the model such that the scope would meet with the right eye. Unfortunately, that was not enough to guarantee the butt of the rifle was reasonably positioned or even if the eye had a clean view through the scope. I really appreciate your help and am glad you were able to use your physical model to help with this thread.

Thanks James, that makes sense to me. This discussion is a good example of why I wanted to build the actual model and be in it with a rifle in hand.

I have been starting to look at the Roberdeau map’s position of JFK at Z133. Currently it appears to me to be off a few feet from where the photographic record indicates. Do you or anyone else know when the Willis 4 slide was exposed as related to Z133? Willis 4 seems to me to be taken very close to Z133. But I would like to hear from some others regarding this.

[James Hackerott]

40.2 inches

Tom, I was working on this this morning when I saw Charles' attempt to reproduce my Z124H frame 3D implied positioning of a rifle proved my model was not realistic. In short, my model would put the butt of the rifle well above the right shoulder. So, determining if the rifle was in or out of the building is moot. Sorry.

[Charles Collins]

I know my measurements are necessarily estimates so are good for estimated, not exact, results.

How I made the estimates I gave you for the first shot may look a little different than yours, so there would be some variability expected. I used Google Earth Pro, which I think was free, to draw a 3D path option available.

Starting with a click at the snipers nest I went to the road around were I expected the bullet hit and clicked there. At each subsequent click it gives you a total path length so I then clicked on the base of the TSBD below the snipers nest and then back up to the snipers nest. This path method is supposed to give cumulative 3D distances along the path or triangle sides here, and using distances in the same manner you did, I used the triangle side lengths in https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/geometry-plane/triangle-law-of-cosines.php in case paths I draw don’t have a right angle in them.

The clicks may be off a little, but I believe the method is accurate enough to get close. If I ever find out otherwise, I will change methods. For the picture here the path lengths it came back with were 107.2 ft direct bullet flight, 89.52 ft from there back to the base of the building, and 58.1 ft. back up to to the start just below the window to basically close the triangle.

Thanks Brian, that’s interesting. I have been studying the Roberdeau map’s position of Z133 compared to the photographs. I currently believe the Roberdeau map to be off a few feet. And I believe that that probably helps to explain some of the difference in our calculations.

[Brian Roselle]

Steve, Thanks for posting that Hughes clip.  I'll look over it repeatedly to see if I can discern anything notable.

I'm with you, it was really bad luck the filming stopped when it did. Just a few more seconds and we would likely have answers to a whole slew of questions.

I had a chance to look at the Hughes film here and also the version on Max Holland's National Geographic show.

It looked like there might be motion but all I could make out was basically a blob. I could not get resolution of a person or a body position. If only we had a few more seconds of film.

On the Max Holland show, he also was trying some sniper shot modeling and positioning using a 6th floor window replication.  It was filmed patchy with respect to the order of the shots but I tried to cut, order and paste the first shot, second shot and third shot positions that he was looking at. The patched together version is at the link here with the three shots added over an ~10 second duration. It starts with a rifle bang right as the first shot was fired and the sniper begins to grab the bolt action getting ready for a second shot. The second shot is ~5 seconds after the first and then the video shifts to be behind the sniper as he cocks for the third shot ~5 seconds later. The pauses in the sniper’s motion after the shots would represent the time the sniper would use to reposition the rifle and aim for the next shot. Again, this is just juxtaposing some of Holland's video snippets in order with gunfire sound for a slightly longer than 10 second shooting duration, which didn't appear that unreasonable.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15Yrbfx0ic3IXXfAhGqiAiIotHC-G3J7s/view?usp=sharing

[Charles Collins]

I had a chance to look at the Hughes film here and also the version on Max Holland's National Geographic show.

It looked like there might be motion but all I could make out was basically a blob. I could not get resolution of a person or a body position. If only we had a few more seconds of film.

On the Max Holland show, he also was trying some sniper shot modeling and positioning using a 6th floor window replication.  It was filmed patchy with respect to the order of the shots but I tried to cut, order and paste the first shot, second shot and third shot positions that he was looking at. The patched together version is at the link here with the three shots added over an ~10 second duration. It starts with a rifle bang right as the first shot was fired and the sniper begins to grab the bolt action getting ready for a second shot. The second shot is ~5 seconds after the first and then the video shifts to be behind the sniper as he cocks for the third shot ~5 seconds later. The pauses in the sniper’s motion after the shots would represent the time the sniper would use to reposition the rifle and aim for the next shot. Again, this is just juxtaposing some of Holland's video snippets in order with gunfire sound for a slightly longer than 10 second shooting duration, which didn't appear that unreasonable.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15Yrbfx0ic3IXXfAhGqiAiIotHC-G3J7s/view?usp=sharing

Thanks for the link to the video Brian. Nice work. You say you saw what might be some movement that you describe as a blob. Could you discern where specifically in the window you think you saw this?

[Royell Storing]

   As if Holland lengthening the firing time to over 10 seconds, and being forced to move the physical position of the JFK Limo on Elm St wasn't enough, now we have the shooter taking 3 different physical positions when firing each of the 3 shots shots.