Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview

[Fergus O'Brien]

" when asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting , he stated that when lunch time came , and he didnt say which floor he was on , he said that one of the negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "you go on down and send the elevator back up and i will join you in a few minuets " . before he could finish what ever he was doing , he stated that the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs , a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that " he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily .following this he simply walked out the front door of the building ." from Harry holmes notes / statement
http://www.prayer-man.com/usps/harry-dean-holmes/#lightbox[group]/3/

i post the above for those that desire to see it and read it . ok so lets start with the first line

"when asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting , he stated that when lunch time came "

please note the two words in bold LUNCH TIME , when lunch time came . when did employees break for lunch ? . well at some time in and around 11.45 am . Oswald was seen after that point at 11.50am on the 1st floor by his superior Bill shelly . so in the very first line it is very clear we are talking about Oswald and his co workers being on the 6th floor at about 11.45 am , then breaking for lunch ,  and Oswald then being seen on the 1st floor at 11.50 am by his superior .

in the first and second line it is said Oswald was invited to eat lunch , i dont believe it was anything so formal as an invite , rather that it was a HEY LEE ITS LUNCH TIME , YOU TAKING A BREAK ?. in fact oswald said he ATE ALONE and jarmin and norman stated they never ate with him .

"he said that one of the negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "you go on down and send the elevator back up and i will join you in a few minuets " . before he could finish what ever he was doing , he stated that the commotion surrounding the assassination took place "

now they broke for lunch about 11.45 am . the commotion surrounding the assassination took place AFTER 12.30 pm . so it should now be very clear that the above are different incidents some 45 minutes apart . but placed together by Holmes notes . statements .

"and when he went down stairs , a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that " he is one of our employees" "

Oswald in no instance placed himself ABOVE the second floor . he said he ate lunch alone . one witness said she saw Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom between 12.15 and 12.20 in a booth eating alone .

[John Mytton]

when did i say Oswald re entered the lunchroom ? when did i say he entered TWICE to buy cokes ? . in fact i never said he ENTERED at all . do try to keep up .

by the way and i an sure you will correct me if i am wrong , but Baker to my knowledge never claimed he saw Oswald walk in the lunchroom door . to my knowledge he said he saw a movement through the door window . which technically at the least is INSIDE .

when did i say Oswald re entered the lunchroom ? when did i say he entered TWICE to buy cokes ? . in fact i never said he ENTERED at all . do try to keep up .

What you say is irrelevant, I'm only interested in the evidence from Baker himself and the actual layout of the 2nd floor.

1. You do realize that the vestibule was a separate area to the lunchroom?



2. According to the plan of the 2nd floor, from Baker's position(B) at the top of the stairs, you can't see through the door of the vestibule door window into the lunchroom. And the following photo from within the Lunchroom you can see through the vestibule door window and see the window to the relative left of the top of the stairs



3. Baker saw enough of Oswald to calculate that Oswald was hurriedly moving away from Law Enforcement because Oswald moved quite far in the same time that Baker ran from the top of the stairs to the door. By the time Officer Baker reaches the vestibule door, Oswald has now decided to not "hang around" but Oswald is suspiciously hurrying out of the corridor and is now about 20 feet away from Officer Baker?

Mr. BAKER - Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was running, and I ran on over here to this door.

Mr. BELIN - All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he gone as far as the coke machine?
Mr. BAKER - I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately 20 feet down there from me.



4. Another clue is that Baker says that the door might have been closing and regardless if the door was almost shut, it is another key indicator that Oswald was just on the other side of the outer vestibule door
Mr. DULLES - Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?
Mr. BAKER - I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.



Conclusion

Oswald would have heard Truly yelling up the stairs, so Oswald ducked into the vestibule corridor and waited for Truly to leave, then as Oswald was opening the door or about to open the door, to continue down the stairs, Oswald unexpectedly saw Officer Baker through the Vestibule door window and Oswald in a blind panic hurriedly moved into the explainable neutral Lunchroom.
Every movement and action Oswald did on the 22nd was the product of a Murderer on the run, fleeing the two crime scenes! 

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So now that you have been reliably informed, I ask again, "why would Oswald need to re-enter the lunchroom, maybe to buy two cokes?"

Btw it's hilarious, that it's you, not me, that needs to "try and keep up". LOL!

JohnM

[Jack Nessan]

"Sorry but I won’t be looking Holmes’s notes up for you " Jack

if you were any good at this you would not need to check up . i had no need to check Holmes notes / statement , but in the interests of trying to be as accurate as i could and not always rely upon memory i did check and i refreshed my memory .

"What are you a squid? It appears you are trying to ink the waters in order to flea from what you said. Either post where Holmes said LHO was on the 6th floor or let it go. I am sure if there was any proof of him saying that it would have come out in his testimony." Jack

i was crystal clear on this . i even posted a child proof comment / explanation for you .

"FO--“i understand fully that you assert that Oswald was on the 6th floor and in the window thus he knew all too well what was going on” 

FO--“LNs have tried to use his notes to assert that Oswald placed himself on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.” " Jack

so then it is NOT your assertion as an LN that Oswald was on the 6th floor and in the window shooting at 12.30 ?  . so as an LN where do you assert that Oswald was at 12.30 ? .do tell .

YES just about every LN ive spoken to asserts based on Holmes notes / statement that Oswald SLIPPED UP and placed himself on the 6th floor at 12.30 .

"West has no relevance to LHO hearing the shots. None at all. Oswald was not on the 2nd floor eating. He said he came down to see what the commotion was about. Baker encounters LHO while LHO was walking into the 2nd floor lunch room. " Jack

Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.
Mr. DULLES - Where was he coming from, do you know?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Mr. BAKER - I ran on over there
Representative BOGGS -You mean where he was?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do?
Mr. BAKER - I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He turned and walked right straight back to me.
Mr. BELIN - Where were you at the time you hollered?
Mr. BAKER - I was standing in the hallway between this door and the second door, right at the edge of the second door.

EXACTLY where above did Baker under oath claim he saw Oswald WALKING INTO THE LUNCHROOM ? .


"Is there really a doubt why I think you just make things up?" Jack

hmmm ? well YES there will always be doubt while you can offer no proof that i did what you claim .

I think comparing you to a squid is unfair to squids. They at least have a purpose for what they do, while you are just wandering around making it up as you go and changing your storyline to fit the circumstances.

Assert leaves some room for doubt as to whether. There is no doubt, LHO was on the 6th floor firing his rifle at JFK.

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Not one thing you have “asserted” is true. Not one thing you have posted “asserts” what you have been stating. Maybe read your posts again and explain where Holmes states LHO was on the 6th floor or LHO was not walking away from Baker into the 2nd floor lunch room.

 FO--” "he said that one of the negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "you go on down and send the elevator back up and i will join you in a few minuets " . before he could finish what ever he was doing , he stated that the commotion surrounding the assassination took place "
 
FO--“now they broke for lunch about 11.45 am . the commotion surrounding the assassination took place AFTER 12.30 pm . so it should now be very clear that the above are different incidents some 45 minutes apart . but placed together by Holmes notes . Statements,”  "and when he went down stairs , a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that " he is one of our employees" "

After the shooting LHO came down to the stairs to see what the commotion was where he had the 2nd floor encounter with Baker. That is what Holmes stated and you confirmed.

[Jack Nessan]

" when asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting , he stated that when lunch time came , and he didnt say which floor he was on , he said that one of the negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "you go on down and send the elevator back up and i will join you in a few minuets " . before he could finish what ever he was doing , he stated that the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs , a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that " he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily .following this he simply walked out the front door of the building ." from Harry holmes notes / statement
http://www.prayer-man.com/usps/harry-dean-holmes/#lightbox[group]/3/

i post the above for those that desire to see it and read it . ok so lets start with the first line

"when asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting , he stated that when lunch time came "

please note the two words in bold LUNCH TIME , when lunch time came . when did employees break for lunch ? . well at some time in and around 11.45 am . Oswald was seen after that point at 11.50am on the 1st floor by his superior Bill shelly . so in the very first line it is very clear we are talking about Oswald and his co workers being on the 6th floor at about 11.45 am , then breaking for lunch ,  and Oswald then being seen on the 1st floor at 11.50 am by his superior .

in the first and second line it is said Oswald was invited to eat lunch , i dont believe it was anything so formal as an invite , rather that it was a HEY LEE ITS LUNCH TIME , YOU TAKING A BREAK ?. in fact oswald said he ATE ALONE and jarmin and norman stated they never ate with him .

"he said that one of the negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated "you go on down and send the elevator back up and i will join you in a few minuets " . before he could finish what ever he was doing , he stated that the commotion surrounding the assassination took place "

now they broke for lunch about 11.45 am . the commotion surrounding the assassination took place AFTER 12.30 pm . so it should now be very clear that the above are different incidents some 45 minutes apart . but placed together by Holmes notes . statements .

"and when he went down stairs , a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that " he is one of our employees" "

Oswald in no instance placed himself ABOVE the second floor . he said he ate lunch alone . one witness said she saw Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom between 12.15 and 12.20 in a booth eating alone .

Incredible did you not even read it? You have managed to put on, in full display, your own intelligence, at the same time managing to insult the intelligence of everyone else.

You have managed to post information that is in direct conflict with what you are stating now and have been stating all along.

 

[Mitch Todd]

That's a lot of words. Too bad that most of them have hardly any significance. So, I'll only deal with the parts that are somewhat relevant.

Again, the WC transcripts aren't particularly good, and ought not be relied upon as a correct, detailed record.

Not sure if you are correct or not, but it's duly noted that you feel that the transcripts the WC relied on were in fact unreliable. Makes one wonder what else the WC used that was unreliable!

You realize that the TSBD was equipped with a very large clock on the roof, right? There is a photo of the building with the Hertz clock showing "12:40" and the red gates opened. Any claim that the building was locked down at 12:36 is demolished this photo and Mooney's testimony about it.

Not that it really matters much, as Styles re-entered the building through the front entrance, but why don't you just show the photo?

"Covered" only means that someone is watching something, whether it be building, part of a building, or whatever else. It doesn't mean "locked down," or "stop anyone from exiting or entering."

That's just your opinion. You don't know if Sawyer shared that opinion. I refer to what I said about Sawyer in my previous post;

The short answer is that Sawyer's testimony shows that DPD officers were not keeping people from entering or leaving the building until some point after Sawyer returned from the fourth floor, and that did not happen earlier than 12:39, though it may have happened a few minutes later. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.

Actually, no it doesn't show that. See above. Sawyer's "to the best of my recollection" doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence in what he is saying. When Sawyer returned from the 4th floor (which may have happened anywhere between 12:37 en 12:39) he was told that the building had been sealed off.

When Sawyer gave the instructions not to let anybody in or out, he was doing so because he didn't think that had been done.

Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.

Obviously, the mere fact that Sawyer thought those instructions had not yet been given, doesn't mean that that was automatically correct.

MW: That's a lot of words. Too bad that most of them have hardly any significance. So, I'll only deal with the parts that are somewhat relevant.

No, you just couldn't deal with what I'd said, and apparently don't want to admit that I was right about Harkness' transmission.


MT: Again, the WC transcripts aren't particularly good, and ought not be relied upon as a correct, detailed record.

MW: Not sure if you are correct or not, but it's duly noted that you feel that the transcripts the WC relied on were in fact unreliable. Makes one wonder what else the WC used that was unreliable!

So you want to rely on some details within the transcripts, but don't care to know what the recordings actually show. Nice.


MW: Actually, no it doesn't show that. See above. Sawyer's "to the best of my recollection" doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence in what he is saying. When Sawyer returned from the 4th floor (which may have happened anywhere between 12:37 en 12:39) he was told that the building had been sealed off.

When Sawyer gave the instructions not to let anybody in or out, he was doing so because he didn't think that had been done.


You left out something:

Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

I've already explained in this thread why Sawyer didn't arrive until after Harkness' 12:36 transmission, and thus would not have returned from the 4th floor before 12:39.

Of the officers in Dealey plaza at the time, most of them are in the railroad yards checking cars or holding the crowd back. Denham stayed at Houston and Main, Lewis remained at Houston and Commerce directing traffic. Allen is seen in the Bond photos running for the picket fence. JM and Ed Smith both leave their posts at Elm and Houston to go to the RR yards. Neither comes back quickly. JM Smith remembered that he returned to the front of the TSBD 15-20 minutes after the shooting. Ed Smith kept checking cars all the way up the lot. King stayed in the edge of the RR yard doing crowd control. White, on the overpass, said got trapped on the West side of the tracks by a train. At 12:36, the only officer who can be said to have been near the door of the Depository is Barnett, who is actually standing off of the corner of the building so he can watch the front and East sides simultaneously. And there really isn't anyone else available, unless JM Smith comes back much much earlier than he thought. The officers required to "lock down" the building simply weren't available to do so. Which is why Harkness asks the dispatcher for assistance at 12:41, and Sawyer asks for more a few minutes later.

[Martin Weidmann]

MW: That's a lot of words. Too bad that most of them have hardly any significance. So, I'll only deal with the parts that are somewhat relevant.

No, you just couldn't deal with what I'd said, and apparently don't want to admit that I was right about Harkness' transmission.

If you say so.

MT: Again, the WC transcripts aren't particularly good, and ought not be relied upon as a correct, detailed record.

MW: Not sure if you are correct or not, but it's duly noted that you feel that the transcripts the WC relied on were in fact unreliable. Makes one wonder what else the WC used that was unreliable!

So you want to rely on some details within the transcripts, but don't care to know what the recordings actually show. Nice.

What do the recordings actually show that isn't in the transcripts abd who said that I want to rely on details in the transcripts? I'm only working with the imperfect record that is available.

But, if you prefer, I'll gladly go by what the recordings actually show, provided of course that the recordings are in fact authenticated.

MW: Actually, no it doesn't show that. See above. Sawyer's "to the best of my recollection" doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence in what he is saying. When Sawyer returned from the 4th floor (which may have happened anywhere between 12:37 en 12:39) he was told that the building had been sealed off.

When Sawyer gave the instructions not to let anybody in or out, he was doing so because he didn't think that had been done.


You left out something:

Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Hilarious. Sawyer confirmed in his testimony that he didn't think instructions had been given. If he didn't know that, how in the world would he know that his instructions were the first ones? Even more so, as, when he returned from the 4th floor, he was told the building had been sealed off.

Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off.

You do understand that if the building was indeed sealed off when Sawyer arrived back from the 4th floor (as the sergeant told him), it becomes irrelevant when exactly Sawyer actually arrived back from the 4th floor and/or gave his instructions?

I've already explained in this thread why Sawyer didn't arrive until after Harkness' 12:36 transmission, and thus would not have returned from the 4th floor before 12:39.

Of the officers in Dealey plaza at the time, most of them are in the railroad yards checking cars or holding the crowd back. Denham stayed at Houston and Main, Lewis remained at Houston and Commerce directing traffic. Allen is seen in the Bond photos running for the picket fence. JM and Ed Smith both leave their posts at Elm and Houston to go to the RR yards. Neither comes back quickly. JM Smith remembered that he returned to the front of the TSBD 15-20 minutes after the shooting. Ed Smith kept checking cars all the way up the lot. King stayed in the edge of the RR yard doing crowd control. White, on the overpass, said got trapped on the West side of the tracks by a train. At 12:36, the only officer who can be said to have been near the door of the Depository is Barnett, who is actually standing off of the corner of the building so he can watch the front and East sides simultaneously. And there really isn't anyone else available, unless JM Smith comes back much much earlier than he thought. The officers required to "lock down" the building simply weren't available to do so. Which is why Harkness asks the dispatcher for assistance at 12:41, and Sawyer asks for more a few minutes later.

I've already explained in this thread why Sawyer didn't arrive until after Harkness' 12:36 transmission, and thus would not have returned from the 4th floor before 12:39.

It's just too bad that Sawyer wasn't as sure about the times than you claim to be. 

[Dan O'meara]

This interview is quite an eye-opener and certainly contradicts my own thinking on this aspect of the case.
Unsurprisingly, it hasn't crossed anyone's mind to take Vicki's words at face value - she hit the first floor approximately 60 seconds after the shooting where she saw Lovelady and Shelley stood by the elevators. This would mean Lovelady and Shelley lied in their WC testimonies about their movements after the shooting. It is notable that in their affidavits neither man makes any mention of their trip down the Elm Street extension, hanging around the railroad yard and entering the TSBD building through the little known west door.
This would make Lovelady and Shelley the two white men Baker reports seeing on the first floor on his way to the elevators:

Mr. Baker: On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. Dulles: Were they white men?
Mr. Baker: Yes, sir.

I'm a bit baffled by the LNer's rabid need to have Adams wait on the fourth floor for a few minutes before she races downstairs to find out what was going on. The available evidence (Stroud document, Dilliard photo) supports Adams' constant assertion that she raced downstairs within seconds of the shooting. The idea that the two women clattering down wooden stairs in high heels in an enclosed space could detect whether someone was descending the stairs on another floor has always seemed a bit nonsensical to me.

If we take Vicki's words at face value the question is - what are Lovelady and Shelley up to?