When Was JBC Hit?

[Zeon Mason]

Does that model  of JC , that Jerry just posted here, represent fairly accurately the position of JC at Z270 as proposed by Andrew?

If so , a bullet hitting  JCs right hand/wrist and exiting the palm of the hand, would  have had to go thru the hat if the bullet entered JCs left inner thigh.

The motions of JCs right shoulder suddenly rotating beginning at Z225 and the right hand clutching hat suddenly upward, beginning approx Z230 seem to me more likely due to involuntary reaction of JC to being hit by a bullet, as opposed to JC just merely trying to turn around after hearing  a rifle shot fired.

If Jerry’s model which has both JCs legs parallel with the longitudinal axis of the limo is the actual orientation ,  then theoretically JC should have been able to twist his upper body around equally right or left.

However, imo, JC did  NOT twist around to his left as much as he did to his right during those movements from Z225-z270.

This suggests that perhaps JC had both his legs rotated towards the right side door when he was in the Z224 position, and that this  precluded him from twisting around to look over his left shoulder enough to see JFK.
JC therefore resorted to twisting around more to his right side  and was able to see JFK just before JC began to fall backwards into Mrs C lap.

If Jerry is willing, perhaps an adjusted model with  both of JCs legs turned towards the right side door and the right hand holding hat over the left leg will solve the hat problem.

[Andrew Mason]

Does that model  of JC , that Jerry just posted here, represent fairly accurately the position of JC at Z270 as proposed by Andrew?

No. It is showing JBC's position at the time of the first shot which I put around z190-195, say z193.

If Jerry is willing, perhaps an adjusted model with  both of JCs legs turned towards the right side door and the right hand holding hat over the left leg will solve the hat problem.

JBC had turned around on previous occasions and knew that JFK was on the far right side of the back seat.  He wasn't expecting him to be as far left as he was.  That would seem to be a more plausible explanation for why he turned to the right rather than because his legs were to the right.  If you sit on a thick cushion on the floor and limit the sideways position of your right leg (in JBC's case, by a car door) where do you put your left leg?:

[Charles Collins]

No. It is showing JBC's position at the time of the first shot which I put around z190-195, say z193.
JBC had turned around on previous occasions and knew that JFK was on the far right side of the back seat.  He wasn't expecting him to be as far left as he was.  That would seem to be a more plausible explanation for why he turned to the right rather than because his legs were to the right.  If you sit on a thick cushion on the floor and limit the sideways position of your right leg (in JBC's case, by a car door) where do you put your left leg?:

That would seem to be a more plausible explanation for why he turned to the right rather than because his legs were to the right.


Actually JBC told us why he turned to the right. It is because he instinctively turned towards the direction that he heard the shot come from (over his right shoulder).
Also, if you look at the various photos that show JBC’s positions throughout the motorcade, he is almost always facing partially towards the right. In order for those positions to be comfortable for the extended time frame of the motorcade, we might expect that JBC would also have his legs pointed partially towards the right. It might be that he needed to shift his position in the seat a bit towards the center of the limo in order to have more leg room on his right to do this. If so, this type of position would be compatible with the SBT.

[Andrew Mason]

That would seem to be a more plausible explanation for why he turned to the right rather than because his legs were to the right.


Actually JBC told us why he turned to the right. It is because he instinctively turned towards the direction that he heard the shot come from (over his right shoulder).
Also, if you look at the various photos that show JBC’s positions throughout the motorcade, he is almost always facing partially towards the right. In order for those positions to be comfortable for the extended time frame of the motorcade, we might expect that JBC would also have his legs pointed partially towards the right. It might be that he needed to shift his position in the seat a bit towards the center of the limo in order to have more leg room on his right to do this. If so, this type of position would be compatible with the SBT.

The issue is whether a shot through JFK could have passed directly to JBC’s thigh. I am suggesting that it did because there is consistent evidence that it occurred on the first shot and that this occurred between z190 and z200, and very strong evidence that JBC was not hit in the back by it.  Since we know that it exited JFK’s throat and would have continued in a straight line and did not hit the car, and since the thigh wound is consistent with being caused by a strike from the butt end of CE399, I am suggesting that it must have struck JBC’s thigh.  That means his left knee was out a bit to the left side.

One does not contest such an assertion by saying that both JBC’s legs may have been to the right. One has to show that the facts on which it is based are necessarily in conflict with the preponderance of the evidence.

In any event, if you sit on a cushion on the floor with your feet on the floor immediately in front of you, you will see that the natural position for a man’s legs would be for them to be spread apart. Try it. You’ll see.  With the right leg constrained by the right door, the left leg is out to the left.

[Charles Collins]

The issue is whether a shot through JFK could have passed directly to JBC’s thigh. I am suggesting that it did because there is consistent evidence that it occurred on the first shot and that this occurred between z190 and z200, and very strong evidence that JBC was not hit in the back by it.  Since we know that it exited JFK’s throat and would have continued in a straight line and did not hit the car, and since the thigh wound is consistent with being caused by a strike from the butt end of CE399, I am suggesting that it must have struck JBC’s thigh.  That means his left knee was out a bit to the left side.

One does not contest such an assertion by saying that both JBC’s legs may have been to the right. One has to show that the facts on which it is based are necessarily in conflict with the preponderance of the evidence.

In any event, if you sit on a cushion on the floor with your feet on the floor immediately in front of you, you will see that the natural position for a man’s legs would be for them to be spread apart. Try it. You’ll see.  With the right leg constrained by the right door, the left leg is out to the left.

I was not contesting your idea. You have been asserting this nonsense for many years and I haven’t seen one person even coming close to saying he agrees with it. I was pointing out that JBC told us why he turned to his right. And that his reason is not the same as your imagined idea of why he turned to the right. JFK had leaned forward. We can see it when he emerges from behind the sign. Charles Brehm also said JFK was leaning forward. I believe that the lean forward by JFK is the reason (not that JFK was any further to his left) that JBC didn’t see JFK out of the corner of his eye when he instinctively turned to his right.
By the way, JBC wasn’t sitting cross legged on the floor (or doing more 25 or 6 to 4). Many years ago under a different screen name I did an experiment and posted photos on this forum and discussed it with you. The photos and discussion all disappeared along with all the other data when the website went down. My old computer is gone also, so I no longer have the photos. I set up a chair leaned back at the appropriate angle and put something in front of the chair to simulate the correct height of the chair above the floor of the limo. I suggest you try something similar that simulates the conditions in the limo better than just a cushion on the floor.
 There are many reasons your idea is nonsense. Among them are the velocity of the bullet after it exited JFK’s neck was too high to only cause a slight wound, and that JBC would have felt it if he had been shot in the left thigh when you think he was. But he didn’t. You continue to deny the evidence against your idea. You still haven’t provided any response to the fact that JBC testified that he turned back to his right after he was shot. However, in your scenario JBC does not turn back to his right after he was shot in the back. This is because, as we can see in the Z-film, (JBC had already turned back to his right before the time that you think he was shot in the back.

[Andrew Mason]

I was not contesting your idea. You have been asserting this nonsense for many years and I haven’t seen one person even coming close to saying he agrees with it.

You are contesting it.  But you don't challenge the evidence that supports it.  You maintain a theory that requires JFK to not react to the first shot for several seconds and to smile and wave for several seconds afterward, despite the lack of a single witness who recalled seeing that and dozens who said he reacted quickly.  You insist that JBC was hit in the back by the same bullet that struck JFK despite not having a single witness who said that occurred and JBC, Nellie, Powers, Gayle Newman, Hickey and Greer who gave evidence that it did not. And you ignore the vast majority of witnesses who recalled the shot pattern with the last two shots close together.

I was pointing out that JBC told us why he turned to his right. And that his reason is not the same as your imagined idea of why he turned to the right.

I was just responding to Mr. Zeon's suggesting that he turned to the right because his legs were to the right.  JBC said he turned around to check on JFK.  Why would he have first turned to his left to see JFK?

JFK had leaned forward. 
 We can see it when he emerges from behind the sign. Charles Brehm also said JFK was leaning forward. I believe that the lean forward by JFK is the reason (not that JFK was any further to his left) that JBC didn’t see JFK out of the corner of his eye when he instinctively turned to his right.

That makes no sense. When do we see JFK leaning forward prior to z224?  When are you suggesting that JBC turned around to try to see JFK?   

By the way, JBC wasn’t sitting cross legged on the floor (or doing more 25 or 6 to 4). Many years ago under a different screen name I did an experiment and posted photos on this forum and discussed it with you. The photos and discussion all disappeared along with all the other data when the website went down. My old computer is gone also, so I no longer have the photos. I set up a chair leaned back at the appropriate angle and put something in front of the chair to simulate the correct height of the chair above the floor of the limo. I suggest you try something similar that simulates the conditions in the limo better than just a cushion on the floor.

So long as the knees are well above the hips, that is all you need.  The legs will be apart. Try it.

There are many reasons your idea is nonsense. Among them are the velocity of the bullet after it exited JFK’s neck was too high to only cause a slight wound, and that JBC would have felt it if he had been shot in the left thigh when you think he was.

Was it a slight wound or a wound that he must have felt?  Dr. Shires said it went down to the femur.  Obviously, you think he was wrong. I don't.   You can't say he must have felt it because a. he didn't and b. many people who are shot do not feel it.  You have yet to respond to the video I posted.  Here is another:

Here is a quote from the narrator beginning around 1:15: "Many people recount that within the first few moments of being hit by a bullet they didn't feel anything at all."

But he didn’t. You continue to deny the evidence against your idea. You still haven’t provided any response to the fact that JBC testified that he turned back to his right after he was shot. However, in your scenario JBC does not turn back to his right after he was shot in the back. This is because, as we can see in the Z-film, (JBC had already turned back to his right before the time that you think he was shot in the back.

You disagree with much of what the Connallys said.  I just disagree with a few minor details.  JBC himself said he was not sure where he was facing when hit in the back.  He recalled deciding to turn to his left to check on JFK and thought he was facing forward when hit.  I do not think that he was correct in that statement.  Neither did Nellie. She said he was turned to the right when hit. 

[Jack Nessan]

You are contesting it.  But you don't challenge the evidence that supports it.  You maintain a theory that requires JFK to not react to the first shot for several seconds and to smile and wave for several seconds afterward, despite the lack of a single witness who recalled seeing that and dozens who said he reacted quickly.  You insist that JBC was hit in the back by the same bullet that struck JFK despite not having a single witness who said that occurred and JBC, Nellie, Powers, Gayle Newman, Hickey and Greer who gave evidence that it did not. And you ignore the vast majority of witnesses who recalled the shot pattern with the last two shots close together.
I was just responding to Mr. Zeon's suggesting that he turned to the right because his legs were to the right.  JBC said he turned around to check on JFK.  Why would he have first turned to his left to see JFK?
That makes no sense. When do we see JFK leaning forward prior to z224?  When are you suggesting that JBC turned around to try to see JFK?   

So long as the knees are well above the hips, that is all you need.  The legs will be apart. Try it.

Was it a slight wound or a wound that he must have felt?  Dr. Shires said it went down to the femur.  Obviously, you think he was wrong. I don't.   You can't say he must have felt it because a. he didn't and b. many people who are shot do not feel it.  You have yet to respond to the video I posted.  Here is another:

Here is a quote from the narrator beginning around 1:15: "Many people recount that within the first few moments of being hit by a bullet they didn't feel anything at all."
You disagree with much of what the Connallys said.  I just disagree with a few minor details.  JBC himself said he was not sure where he was facing when hit in the back.  He recalled deciding to turn to his left to check on JFK and thought he was facing forward when hit.  I do not think that he was correct in that statement.  Neither did Nellie. She said he was turned to the right when hit.

  A Mason---“You insist that JBC was hit in the back by the same bullet that struck JFK despite not having a single witness who said that occurred”

Not true. Bill Newman heard the first shot and could not tell which man was hit first. DPD Hargis, Nellie, and Jackie all referenced him being struck by the first shot. In all your “following the evidence” nonsense you conveniently ignore this fact. A large number of eyewitnesses state the car accelerated after the second shot, this includes SA Kellerman. Another fact that is a casualty of this bizarre theory. The eyewitnesses' by referencing JFK in relation to where they were standing also place the first shot after Z207. Nothing in the whole assassination even remotely supports what you have constantly been proposing.