When Was JBC Hit?

[John Mytton]

It's not reliable at all.
Marilyn Sitzman describes the shots as not being that loud. She describes the smashing of the Coke bottle as being far louder.
There is no reason to believe the shots were loud enough to cause a startle effect.

Thompson: Could I ask you something about your gaze and actions immediately after the head shot? On the trailer of Mr. Zapruder's film, we noticed that he turned to his right and photographed the general area of the stockade fence, the trees and the stockade fence and that particular area. Did you turn in that direction after the head shot too?
Sitzman: In a way, I have a feeling this: He might have heard the kids throw down the coke bottles and heard that crash or else maybe it was just what he saw could have caused a reaction where he'd jump, but I don't think it was the sound of bullets, because I didn't jump.

Also to further reinforce the Zapruder involuntary camera jiggle, in 1967 CBSNEWS TV carried out a similar recreation and the camera operators who were a similar distance away as Zapruder from the sniper's nest also shows an involuntary jiggle effect at the time of the shots.



The cameramen were instructed to hold the cameras steady yet an involuntary vertical jiggle is clear.



Btw you keep ignoring that Zapruder shows the same type of violent vertical jerk at the provable shots at Z312/313 and when Connally and Kennedy are hit simultaneously which makes your weak rebuttal pointless.

JohnM

[Jack Nessan]

Zapruder is a two shot witness. How can Zapruder have a startle reaction to a shot he never heard and he states he never heard. This is an example of the WC and HSCA conclusions indicating “Medias Influence” about inflating the number of shots– He is being asked about a shot he never heard nor did he know anything about this phantom shot until he was told about it. 

I believe jiggle analysis only showed a strong reaction twice. Shots one and two that he describes in detail.

ZAPRUDER - Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was almost in line. I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area).
Mr. LIEBELER - Grab himself on the front of his chest?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Right---something like that. In other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot and you saw the President slump over?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw---I don't believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I started--I can hardly talk about it [ the witness crying].

 
Mr. LIEBELER - Nobody should ever be ashamed of feeling that way, Mr. Zapruder. I feel the same way myself. It was a terrible thing.
Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you heard altogether.
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a third shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - You didn't hear any shot after you saw him hit?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I heard the second--after the first shot--I saw him leaning over and after the second shot--it's possible after what I saw, you know, then I started yelling, "They killed him,

[John Mytton]

Zapruder is a two shot witness. How can Zapruder have a startle reaction to a shot he never heard and he states he never heard. This is an example of the WC and HSCA conclusions indicating “Medias Influence” about inflating the number of shots– He is being asked about a shot he never heard nor did he know anything about this phantom shot until he was told about it. 

I believe jiggle analysis only showed a strong reaction twice. Shots one and two that he describes in detail.

ZAPRUDER - Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was almost in line. I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area).
Mr. LIEBELER - Grab himself on the front of his chest?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Right---something like that. In other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot and you saw the President slump over?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw---I don't believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I started--I can hardly talk about it [ the witness crying].

 
Mr. LIEBELER - Nobody should ever be ashamed of feeling that way, Mr. Zapruder. I feel the same way myself. It was a terrible thing.
Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you heard altogether.
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a third shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - You didn't hear any shot after you saw him hit?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I heard the second--after the first shot--I saw him leaning over and after the second shot--it's possible after what I saw, you know, then I started yelling, "They killed him,

Thanks, but under the circumstances of Zapruder concentrating on his filming, I can understand him not specifically recalling an inconsequential missed shot.

As for the two shot eyewitnesses, the number is statistically insignificant.



JohnM

[Jack Nessan]

Thanks, but under the circumstances of Zapruder concentrating on his filming, I can understand him not specifically recalling an inconsequential missed shot.

As for the two shot eyewitnesses, the number is statistically insignificant.



JohnM

The example presented was based on startle reaction. How can someone be startled by a sound they did not hear? Again, didn’t jiggle analysis indicate there were only two similar reactions?

 

These graphs are a fools game. Most of the % is based on earwitnesses not eyewitnesses. Why stop at just the earwitnesses in Dealey Plaza maybe they should have went a block over and asked those people. 

 

The eyewitnesses tell a different story. First statements vs later statements present a different graph. There are endless variations of when the statements are taken as to how many shots and the location of the witnesses, whether they were eyewitnesses or earwitnesses, and also their descriptions of the second shot being the headshot, or two shots so close together they sounded as if they were one. All kinds of descriptions in statements that are interpreted as three shots but are actually two shot descriptions.

 

Jackie clearly states the medias influence that occurred following the assassination.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any recollection of whether there were one or more shots?
Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling. And it used to confuse me because first I remembered there were three and I used to think my husband didn't make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed. And then I read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the first shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him. But I heard Governor Connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as I turned to the right my husband was doing this [indicating with hand at neck]. He was receiving a bullet. And those are the only two I remember.
And I read there was a third shot. But I don't know. Just those two.

Zapruder is correlating everything he hears to the reaction in the car.  You are suggesting that after the headshot he forgot he heard another shot? He flat out stated he only heard two shots. The first shot JFK slumps, second shot his head explodes. No other shots, he doesn't hear a shot and nothing happened in the car.

Mr. ZAPRUDER - …... I never even heard a third shot

[Andrew Mason]

Rather than getting bogged down in various theories, particularly your own, it's more of a general discussion about what we actually see in the Z-film.
You agree JBC is reacting - how would you describe the reaction?

It looks to me like he is reacting the way he said he reacted to the first shot.

[John Mytton]

The example presented was based on startle reaction. How can someone be startled by a sound they did not hear? Again, didn’t jiggle analysis indicate there were only two similar reactions?

 

These graphs are a fools game. Most of the % is based on earwitnesses not eyewitnesses. Why stop at just the earwitnesses in Dealey Plaza maybe they should have went a block over and asked those people. 

 

The eyewitnesses tell a different story. First statements vs later statements present a different graph. There are endless variations of when the statements are taken as to how many shots and the location of the witnesses, whether they were eyewitnesses or earwitnesses, and also their descriptions of the second shot being the headshot, or two shots so close together they sounded as if they were one. All kinds of descriptions in statements that are interpreted as three shots but are actually two shot descriptions.

 

Jackie clearly states the medias influence that occurred following the assassination.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any recollection of whether there were one or more shots?
Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling. And it used to confuse me because first I remembered there were three and I used to think my husband didn't make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed. And then I read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the first shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him. But I heard Governor Connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as I turned to the right my husband was doing this [indicating with hand at neck]. He was receiving a bullet. And those are the only two I remember.
And I read there was a third shot. But I don't know. Just those two.

Zapruder is correlating everything he hears to the reaction in the car.  You are suggesting that after the headshot he forgot he heard another shot? He flat out stated he only heard two shots. The first shot JFK slumps, second shot his head explodes. No other shots, he doesn't hear a shot and nothing happened in the car.

Mr. ZAPRUDER - …... I never even heard a third shot

Since you brought up the Limo occupants.

Mrs Connally

Mr. DULLES. To the right was into your arms more or less?
Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.
I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.

John Connally

Mr. SPECTER. Nellie is Mrs. Connally?
Governor CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry, Be quiet. You are going to be all right." She Just kept telling me I was going to be all right.
After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill, get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get us to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the motorcycle police who were leading us.

William Robert Greer.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard?
Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard.

Roy Kellerman heard a flurry of shots enter the Limo(which I believe were the fragments bouncing around), but he definitely heard more than two.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot.

I would also like to finally add that three shells were found in the sniper's nest and the closest earwitness, the "boom click click, boom click click, boom click click" man(Harold Norman) heard 3 shots.



And the closest earwitness, Harold Norman, who was just on the floor below heard 3 shots.

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three.

@3:58

JohnM

[Royell Storing]

  Knott Lab and their Laser findings concluded that the SBT is IMPOSSIBLE. This makes the ongoing discussion immaterial. No SBT = Multiple Shooters = Conspiracy.  CASE CLOSED!