When Was JBC Hit?

[Dan O'meara]

Just wanted to repost this excellent gif posted earlier by Steve:



I've never noticed the upward double thrusting movement of JBC's shoulder before but it is clear as day.
I believe the 'doubling' of this movement reveals two very different reactions.
The first reaction is the instantaneous physical reaction when two objects collide. There is no delay in this reaction, it is instantaneous. This happens when the bullet physically collides with, and destroys, a relatively large section of JBC's rib. This collision causes JBC's torso to rotate, his right side being thrust forward and downwards causing his left shoulder to be thrust backwards and upwards.
The second reaction is his body's reflex reaction to such a massive trauma. This reaction takes place within a z-frame or two after the initial trauma and is totally reflexive, that is to say there is no conscious decision being made, it is an automatic response of the body to trauma. It is at the same time as this second upward thrust of his shoulder that we see JBC's Stetson suddenly leaping up in front of his face.

We see the white of JBC's shirt cuff instantly disappearing below the door frame as the wrist is struck by the bullet.
JBC's body rotates and we see the first 'shoulder lift'.
The right side of JBC's jacket bulges forward as debris is blown out of his chest as his body continues to rotate.
We see the second shoulder lift as JBC's body reacts to the trauma and the first sign of his Stetson as it moves incredibly quickly upwards.

When the Z-film is rolled on from this point we see that JBC's wrist is being held at a really unnatural angle due to the massive damage it has suffered.
Much has been made of JBC continuing to hold onto his Stetson but I believe his hand has suffered nerve damage and he couldn't let go of it if he wanted to.

One last note - using this analysis it is possible to pinpoint the exact moment both men are shot through, between z222 and z223.
There is truly overwhelming evidence that this is when the first shot happens.

[Andrew Mason]

Just wanted to repost this excellent gif posted earlier by Steve:



I've never noticed the upward double thrusting movement of JBC's shoulder before but it is clear as day.
I believe the 'doubling' of this movement reveals two very different reactions.
The first reaction is the instantaneous physical reaction when two objects collide. There is no delay in this reaction, it is instantaneous. This happens when the bullet physically collides with, and destroys, a relatively large section of JBC's rib. This collision causes JBC's torso to rotate, his right side being thrust forward and downwards causing his left shoulder to be thrust backwards and upwards.

There is no question that conservation of momentum will apply. But the problem is that the impact is to JBC’s right armpit not his shoulder. And it is downward. There is no way the impact momentum lifted the right shoulder.

Second, the ratio of resulting body speed to incoming bullet speed is in inverse proportion to the ratio of their masses. A human male trunk is about 55% of total body mass or about 55 kg for a 100 kg person. So the incoming 10g (.01kg) bullet at 450 m/s (1500 fps) imparts 4.5 kg m/s of momentum to the torso and the torso recoils at a speed of 4.5/55 =.08 m/s or 8 cm/s. That works out to 4.5 mm per frame. You are not going to see sudden motion of the body in one frame or even over 2 or 3 frames 

[Dan O'meara]

There is no question that conservation of momentum will apply. But the problem is that the impact is to JBC’s right armpit not his shoulder. And it is downward. There is no way the impact momentum lifted the right shoulder.

Second, the ratio of resulting body speed to incoming bullet speed is in inverse proportion to the ratio of their masses. A human male trunk is about 55% of total body mass or about 55 kg for a 100 kg person. So the incoming 10g (.01kg) bullet at 450 m/s (1500 fps) imparts 4.5 kg m/s of momentum to the torso and the torso recoils at a speed of 4.5/55 =.08 m/s or 8 cm/s. That works out to 4.5 mm per frame. You are not going to see sudden motion of the body in one frame or even over 2 or 3 frames

There is no way the impact momentum lifted the right shoulder.

 
Oh boy, you really need to read the posts you are responding to.
Of course there is no way that a downward impact to the right side of JBC's torso will cause his right shoulder to lift.
The Z-film shows his LEFT SHOULDER lifting.
I posted the following:

"This collision causes JBC's torso to rotate, his right side being thrust forward and downwards causing his left shoulder to be thrust backwards and upwards."

So, even though you didn't mean to, you are in agreement that a downward impact to the right side of JBC would cause exactly the movement we see in the clip Steve posted.
You are finally getting it.

Second, the ratio of resulting body speed to incoming bullet speed is in inverse proportion to the ratio of their masses. A human male trunk is about 55% of total body mass or about 55 kg for a 100 kg person. So the incoming 10g (.01kg) bullet at 450 m/s (1500 fps) imparts 4.5 kg m/s of momentum to the torso and the torso recoils at a speed of 4.5/55 =.08 m/s or 8 cm/s. That works out to 4.5 mm per frame. You are not going to see sudden motion of the body in one frame or even over 2 or 3 frames


Pure baloney.
The physical collision of two solids transfers momentum instantaneously.
Yet more confirmation that the bullet passed through both men between z222 and z223.

The analysis of the clip Steve posted leaves zero doubt it is at this moment JBC is shot through the chest. If this is the best counter argument you can provide it must finally be time for you to abandon your dead theory. You must accept the arguments being put forward as you have nothing left to counter with.
The disappearing cuff.
The rotating body.
The jacket bulging outwards.
The double shoulder lift.
The explosive movements.
The unnatural wrist angle.
Everything points to this being the moment JBC is shot through. In turn this points to the exact moment JFK is also shot through.
The time has come to finally accept the evidence 

[Andrew Mason]

There is no way the impact momentum lifted the right shoulder.

 
Oh boy, you really need to read the posts you are responding to.
Of course there is no way that a downward impact to the right side of JBC's torso will cause his right shoulder to lift.
The Z-film shows his LEFT SHOULDER lifting.

Except that the right shoulder lifts and moves forward between z222 and z224:



Here is a longer clip:


So if you think he was hit by a bullet in the right armpit, why would the right shoulder lift and turn forward?  After that the left shoulder lifts but there is no reason to believe it is anything other than a voluntary movement as he prepares to turn around. 

Second, the ratio of resulting body speed to incoming bullet speed is in inverse proportion to the ratio of their masses. A human male trunk is about 55% of total body mass or about 55 kg for a 100 kg person. So the incoming 10g (.01kg) bullet at 450 m/s (1500 fps) imparts 4.5 kg m/s of momentum to the torso and the torso recoils at a speed of 4.5/55 =.08 m/s or 8 cm/s. That works out to 4.5 mm per frame. You are not going to see sudden motion of the body in one frame or even over 2 or 3 frames


Pure baloney.
The physical collision of two solids transfers momentum instantaneously.

Yes, of course. The momentum is transferred from the bullet to the body while it passes thorugh the chest. That occurs almost "instantaneously" (about 1/1000th of a second to pass through JBC's torso).

The momentum transferred is the bullet mass x the change in velocity. But since the bullet also must have struck the right wrist with a speed of about 1000 fps in order to shatter the radius, the loss of speed in the torso is only about 500 fps or about 150 m/s.  So it would be about 3 mm/second of movement.  How far do you think that can move the body in 1/18th of a second? Answer: 3/18th of a mm.  Do you think you can see that in the zfilm?

The movement of the shoulders is much greater than 3/18ths of a millimetre per frame.  What this means is that the movement seen between z222 and z228 is not from a bullet but is a voluntary movement. 

[Dan O'meara]

Except that the right shoulder lifts and moves forward between z222 and z224:



Here is a longer clip:


So if you think he was hit by a bullet in the right armpit, why would the right shoulder lift and turn forward?  After that the left shoulder lifts but there is no reason to believe it is anything other than a voluntary movement as he prepares to turn around. 
Yes, of course. The momentum is transferred from the bullet to the body while it passes thorugh the chest. That occurs almost "instantaneously" (about 1/1000th of a second to pass through JBC's torso).

The momentum transferred is the bullet mass x the change in velocity. But since the bullet also must have struck the right wrist with a speed of about 1000 fps in order to shatter the radius, the loss of speed in the torso is only about 500 fps or about 150 m/s.  So it would be about 3 mm/second of movement.  How far do you think that can move the body in 1/18th of a second? Answer: 3/18th of a mm.  Do you think you can see that in the zfilm?

The movement of the shoulders is much greater than 3/18ths of a millimetre per frame.  What this means is that the movement seen between z222 and z228 is not from a bullet but is a voluntary movement.

 
Whatever you need, buddy.



The difference between these two images is about 0.70 seconds.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Except that the right shoulder lifts and moves forward between z222 and z224:



Here is a longer clip:


So if you think he was hit by a bullet in the right armpit, why would the right shoulder lift and turn forward?  After that the left shoulder lifts but there is no reason to believe it is anything other than a voluntary movement as he prepares to turn around. 
Yes, of course. The momentum is transferred from the bullet to the body while it passes thorugh the chest. That occurs almost "instantaneously" (about 1/1000th of a second to pass through JBC's torso).

The momentum transferred is the bullet mass x the change in velocity. But since the bullet also must have struck the right wrist with a speed of about 1000 fps in order to shatter the radius, the loss of speed in the torso is only about 500 fps or about 150 m/s.  So it would be about 3 mm/second of movement.  How far do you think that can move the body in 1/18th of a second? Answer: 3/18th of a mm.  Do you think you can see that in the zfilm?

The movement of the shoulders is much greater than 3/18ths of a millimetre per frame.  What this means is that the movement seen between z222 and z228 is not from a bullet but is a voluntary movement.

Andrew: What caused his right shoulder to move while his left remained, to me, still? To me (confirmation bias/motivated reasoning and all that) his right shoulder goes downward first and then the left follows. They both then "shrug" up.

He specifically said that it felt like a "balled up fist" that first hit him. No pain at that time. Isn't that what we see here?, i.e., a rightward down motion first. Do you not see that?

[Andrew Mason]

The difference between these two images is about 0.70 seconds.

Which is more than enough time for a voluntary action as he prepares to turn around to check on JFK, as he said he did after the first shot.  No need to assume he was hallucinating when he said he was not hit in the back on the first shot.  No need to assume that JFK assumed the position seen in z224 and z225:

between z222 and z224.