When Was JBC Hit?

[Steve Barber]

The physical evidence does not support three shots. The FBI only noted two of the three shells found in the SN exhibited the “chambering mark” from the rifle. CE 543 did not have the indentation. Even the unfired cartridge exhibited the chambering mark along with the next thirty shells, as was noted by Josiah Thompson, that had been fired in the rifle.

Zapruder--Reactions and Jiggle Analysis? Zapruder is a two shot witness.

  Wrong, the physical evidence DOES support 3 shots, but you go ahead and believe that there are not three distinct sudden physical motions by both men in the limousine. Your credibilty is a stake.

   Zapruder's camera doesn't lie.   Zapruder wasn't counting the shots as they went off, and within hours of the assassination, he didn't know for sure that he heard 2 or 3 shots.  Watch his interview with Jay Watson, WFAA-TV.  "...[T]hen I heard another shot or two..."  after having earlier seen the "president slump to the side-like this".   Zapruder was a two or three shot witness. 

[Andrew Mason]

  One of the three shots missed the target.

If that was the case then the SBT would be correct.  But if that were the case why are they so many witnesses who recalled that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot by doing things we don’t see him doing until after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign? why are there so many witnesses who said the last two shots were in rapid succession? why are witnesses consistent with the first shot being after z186 (Betzner) after the VP car had completed the turn and going downhill? An instant before z202 (Philip Willis)? etc?

We know that both men were struck where the film shows them being struck.

“We” don’t know that. John Connally said he knew that was not the case. Nellie C. as well. At least three members of the WC didn’t believe it and none of those that did said they thought it was the second shot.

A. Zapruder's camera jiggle proves that a shot was fired there.

There are at least 8 jiggles. Besides, there would have to be 2 frames between the bullet strike and the sound arriving at Zapruder’s ears and then a frame or two to react.

B. The sudden head turns of both JFK and Governor Connally-both of whom were looking to their left. And one thing most people do not notice is that Connally was looking to his right
when Zapruder first began filming, turned to his left, then suddenlly jerked his head back to the right, where his head remained turned during the entire travel down Elm Street until he comes out from behind the sign, which is the first motion he made-other than taking his right hand off the top of the side rail of the car.

And Mary Woodward said that she shouted at the President as he approached and he and Jackie turned to their right and the President acknowledged them as the car passed by. She was certain they were the last people he acknowledged before that first horrible ear-shattering noise.

[Charles Collins]

If that was the case then the SBT would be correct.  But if that were the case why are they so many witnesses who recalled that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot by doing things we don’t see him doing until after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign? why are there so many witnesses who said the last two shots were in rapid succession? why are witnesses consistent with the first shot being after z186 (Betzner) after the VP car had completed the turn and going downhill? An instant before z202 (Philip Willis)? etc?

“We” don’t know that. John Connally said he knew that was not the case. Nellie C. as well. At least three members of the WC didn’t believe it and none of those that did said they thought it was the second shot.
There are at least 8 jiggles. Besides, there would have to be 2 frames between the bullet strike and the sound arriving at Zapruder’s ears and then a frame or two to react.
And Mary Woodward said that she shouted at the President as he approached and he and Jackie turned to their right and the President acknowledged them as the car passed by. She was certain they were the last people he acknowledged before that first horrible ear-shattering noise.

The Warren Commission said that they were unable to conclude which one of the three shots missed. The HSCA concluded that the first shot missed. I tend to agree with the first shot missed theory, and have found numerous items that suggest that this theory is correct. However, I have not been convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

 I have not yet given the idea of the third shot missing very much consideration. This is mostly due to my opinion that it does not make any sense for someone to shoot again, after seeing JFK’s head explode. But I do consider that it is possible that there was a third shot that missed. Charles Brehm indicated that he thought that the third shot missed everything. In my imagination, I suppose that if LHO was firing and cycling the bolt as fast as he could, that he might automatically cycle the bolt after the head shot. Then after seeing JFK had gone down and Jackie was crawling on the trunk lid, he might have instinctively not wanted to shoot Jackie and moved his aim away from her. And if he had his finger on the trigger, it is feasible that he inadvertently fired the third shot over the limo. These are just some ideas that I have had. Perhaps a closer look at a possible third shot miss is in order?

[Zeon Mason]

If theres any agreement that Z224 was the 1st shot , then there was about 4.8 secs for 2nd shot head shot followed 1-2 sec later by a 3rd shot that missed high and struck the curb near Tague.

That would certainly preserve the 1….2..3 spacing as majority heard by witness.

The other alternative .. a missed 1st shot that precedes the Z224 2nd shot, is difficult to fit in between Betzner Z186 and Willis Z205 which is the approx Z195 -200 range, because that’s 1.5 sec between 1st and 2nd Z224  shot , therefore not likely both shots to be fired by the same MC rifle.

Now maybe Charles could be on the right track to suggest a shot that was very close just after the Z313 head shot .
A 3rd MC rifle shot not aimed, just loaded fast as possible and fired high, perhaps in 2.0 secs?

It could be the same phenomenon of memory that witness could hear 2 shots spaced only 2 secs apart as “back to back” because of the longer preceding gap of silence of 4.8 secs between Z224 and Z313.

My pet (CT) theory is a solitary  shooter used a semi auto rifle and that after he waited the 4.8 secs after shooting 1st shot at Z224 , he intended to shoot shots 2&3 as rapid final shots and that 2nd shot at Z313 hit while the 3rd shot about 0.5-1 sec later,  went high due to muzzle rise effect when firing a semi auto rapidly.

From a CT perspective, this resolves the reason for the chain of custody issues and insignificant deformation of CE 399 because the bullet witness saw on the stretcher, WAS a pointed bullet and NOT the ball nosed 6.5 mm MC bullet. That bullet went to FBI and was switched with CE 399 later after a false report made attributed to FBI  agent Odum because the witness did NOT identify CE 399.

It’s kind of same thing the WC did  with V.Adams and Lovelady/Shelley, changing things a bit to make their theory fit.

[Jack Nessan]

  Wrong, the physical evidence DOES support 3 shots, but you go ahead and believe that there are not three distinct sudden physical motions by both men in the limousine. Your credibilty is a stake.

   Zapruder's camera doesn't lie.   Zapruder wasn't counting the shots as they went off, and within hours of the assassination, he didn't know for sure that he heard 2 or 3 shots.  Watch his interview with Jay Watson, WFAA-TV.  "...[T]hen I heard another shot or two..."  after having earlier seen the "president slump to the side-like this".   Zapruder was a two or three shot witness.

Jiggle analysis shows Zapruder reacted to a shot he never heard? 

There was a shot at Z155 when Zapruder clearly describes JFK was hit by the first shot?

Zapruder is wrong when he then clearly describes JFK has been struck in the head by the second shot.

Zapruder still maintained there were only two shots during his WC testimony.
Jay Watson is the problem. He told Bill Newman how many shots there were according to him as well as doing the same with Zapruder. This is exactly what the WC and HSCA meant when they stated "The media influenced the witnesses into inflating the number of shots"

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was almost in line. I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area).
Mr. LIEBELER - Grab himself on the front of his chest?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Right---something like that. In other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot and you saw the President slump over?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw---I don't believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I started--I can hardly talk about it [ the witness crying].
Mr. LIEBELER - That's all right, Mr. Zapruder, would you like a drink of water? Why don't you step out and have a drink of water?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I'm sorry--I'm ashamed of myself really, but I couldn't help it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Nobody should ever be ashamed of feeling that way, Mr. Zapruder. I feel the same way myself. It was a terrible thing.
Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you heard altogether.
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a third shot.
[/u]

There is no mistaking what Zapruder thought. Jiggle Analysis on a person who only heard two shots can only indicate there were two shots. If not, then question Jiggle Analysis not Zapruder.
 

The physical evidence clearly indicates there were only two shots. Creating a shot to validate earwitness testimony is not evidence. Especially when so many eyewitnesses describe a different shooting sequence.

 

[Andrew Mason]

Jay Watson is the problem. He told Bill Newman how many shots there were according to him as well as doing the same with Zapruder. This is exactly what the WC and HSCA meant when they stated "The media influenced the witnesses into inflating the number of shots".

Watson was on the air continuously up to the time he interviewed Zapruder and we can see that he didn’t have any opportunity to meet with him. It is apparent from the beginning of the interview that Watson was meeting Zapruder for the first time, just after Zapruder had walked into the studio.

Zapruder’s uncertainty about the number of shots may be because he was concentrating on watching the President and relying more on visual cues. He observed effects from only two shots.

[Andrew Mason]

If theres any agreement that Z224 was the 1st shot , then there was about 4.8 secs for 2nd shot head shot followed 1-2 sec later by a 3rd shot that missed high and struck the curb near Tague.

That would certainly preserve the 1….2..3 spacing as majority heard by witness.

The other alternative .. a missed 1st shot that precedes the Z224 2nd shot, is difficult to fit in between Betzner Z186 and Willis Z205 which is the approx Z195 -200 range, because that’s 1.5 sec between 1st and 2nd Z224  shot , therefore not likely both shots to be fired by the same MC rifle.

The first shot after z186 (Betzner, motorcade witnesses, Woodward, etc) and just before z202 (Phil Willis), with the last at z312~z313, fits the shot pattern if the second shot was just before the head shot.

George Hickey said he turned forward just before the second shot and Wm Greer said he turned to the rear (for the first of his two turns to the rear) just after it. Hickey turned forward after z255 (he is turned rearward in Altgen’s #6) and Greer turns rearward starting about z280.

A second shot at about z271 not only fits that evidence but fits the perception of the shooter firing the last two shots as quickly as possible as the target moves away. It also fits Hickey’s recollection of seeing the hair on the right side of JFK’s hair fly up at the time of the second shot.