Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial

[Fergus O'Brien]

Callaway's call on the squad car radio to the dispatcher took place at 1:19.

How disappointing. And you were doing so well....

he's making this call maybe four minutes after hearing the shots.

So the shots were fired no sooner than 1:15?

Amazing... by that time Helen Markham, after taking 9 minutes to walk two blocks, would have been at the bus stop on Jefferson, either catching a delayed 1:12 bus or waiting for the 1:22 one. Go figure..

i recall a thread here on this forum regarding this matter and the timing issues .now i may be wrong as its several years back  if so i apologize in advance of this . but if my memory is correct it was Bill who sort of acknowledged that the shots probably were fired 3 or perhaps 4 minutes prior to the radio call . the 1.16 radio call . Bill please feel free here to correct me if my memory is incorrect and that it was not you , but for some reason i am believing it was you .but anyway that would mean the shots were fired as potentially as early as 1.12 . and this would be after tippit stopped the man (be that Oswald or what ever ) and had a conversation with him . then we have to add in any excess minutes that Oswald lingered on beckley . if he is on beckley at 1.03 and the shooting was at 1.12 that creates a problem .but of course this is why LN want to make Oswalds time at the rooming house a matter of seconds as opposed to minutes .and why they want to add as much time as they can to get him to 10th and patton in time to shoot the late officer Tippit . of course its difficult perhaps impossible to come up with exacting time lines , i get that . i do remember a thread once here , i believe again from memory it was Colin crowe (i hope i have the name right ) who came up with some excellent work on the 6th floor and how long it would have taken to do what oswald is said to have done and then gone down stairs . i dont know if Colin is still a member , but i have the greatest respect for his work on this forum .but my point simply is that while i know we cant be accurate to exacting levels that we can put together a reasonably accurate time line if we do so honestly , and Colin did that .

[Richard Smith]

indeed . she had no reason to think about him changing clothes etc . yes she did notice his return and departure she was also working on her tv , plus noting police cars outside . i dont think she paid GREAT attention oswald , yes she took notice but he was not her main focus of attention in my opinion .Oswald was noted in interrogation saying he changed his clothing , his shirt and slacks . why would he offer that information ?. i dont think he was sat there in Fritz office thinking ive got to give my self less time by dreaming up ways to add more time to things he did . in fact if we say he was indeed guilty well he in saying MY CLOTHES THAT I WORE IN WORK ARE IN THAT DRAWER THERE well he was giving them evidence to use against him .despite what some say oswald was not stupid . Roberts gave an estimate , not an unreasonable estimate of time , but as you accurately state she had no reason believe he never changed clothes .

but there is one good reason why LN would never want to have to admit he changed his slacks and shirt . if he went to his rooming house wearing the red shirt he wore in work , took it off and ONLY put on the brown shirt at 1pm in his room . how could he possibly have left fresh fibers from that brown shirt on the rifle at the depository at 12.30 ? . if Oswald did indeed change his shirt that creates serious obvious problems for LN .

Changing shirts creates no issue even if that occurred.  The fibers from his shirt could have got on the rifle on some prior occasion.  They would not necessarily have needed to be on the rifle from contact on Nov. 22.  What the fibers do is add yet another link between Oswald and the rifle left at the crime scene.  The rifle used to assassinate JFK.  Even if no such fibers were ever found, there is ample evidence to do that from the overwhelming evidence that links him to the rifle.  Whether he changed his shirt or does nothing to undermine the case against Oswald.

[Martin Weidmann]

Changing shirts creates no issue even if that occurred.  The fibers from his shirt could have got on the rifle on some prior occasion.  They would not necessarily have needed to be on the rifle from contact on Nov. 22.  What the fibers do is add yet another link between Oswald and the rifle left at the crime scene.  The rifle used to assassinate JFK.  Even if no such fibers were ever found, there is ample evidence to do that from the overwhelming evidence that links him to the rifle.  Whether he changed his shirt or does nothing to undermine the case against Oswald.

Changing shirts creates no issue even if that occurred.  The fibers from his shirt could have got on the rifle on some prior occasion.  They would not necessarily have needed to be on the rifle from contact on Nov. 22.

"Richard" is grasping at straws again.

First of all, there is no such thing as "the fibers from his shirt" as it never was (and never can be) conclusively proven that the fibers found on the rifle did actually come from Oswald's shirt to the exclusion of all other shirts. At best the FBI experts could say was that the fibers were similar.

Secondly, the only realistic time that fibers of the arrest shirt could have gotten on the rifle is on November 22, for the simple reason that  - according to the official narrative - Oswald surrendered the rifle, wrapped in a blanket, to Ruth Paine, when she picked up Marina in New Orleans, in September 1963. Oswald visited Ruth Paine's home only a couple of times and simply would have had no real opportunity to have access to the rifle and/or break it down. But, let's say for argument's sake say that there was indeed a rifle in Ruth Paine's garage and that Oswald could have somehow managed to dismantle it, without being seen, that still requires that he just happened to be wearing the arrest shirt on that occassion, and that would be one massive coincidence.

Also, the likelihood that fibers similar to those of the arrest shirt could have gotten on the rifle before November 22 and stayed there is extremely low, considering that not a single single fiber similar to the fibers of the blanket, in which the rifle allegedly was wrapped for more than two months, were found on the rifle. Do the math!

What the fibers do is add yet another link between Oswald and the rifle left at the crime scene.

No they don't provide such a link, as the fibers found on the rifle were never matched conclusively to Oswald's arrest shirt.

[Fergus O'Brien]

Changing shirts creates no issue even if that occurred.  The fibers from his shirt could have got on the rifle on some prior occasion.  They would not necessarily have needed to be on the rifle from contact on Nov. 22.  What the fibers do is add yet another link between Oswald and the rifle left at the crime scene.  The rifle used to assassinate JFK.  Even if no such fibers were ever found, there is ample evidence to do that from the overwhelming evidence that links him to the rifle.  Whether he changed his shirt or does nothing to undermine the case against Oswald.

well now i call that moving the goal posts , and its supposition . while it is certainly not impossible that he could leave fibers from a particular shirt on the rifle at a point in the past well i just dont believe given the fbi testimony that in this case that this is what happened . the fibers were i believe freshly left . so again if he did not put on that brown shirt until about 1pm at his rooming house some 30 minutes after the shooting , how could he have left those fibers on the shirt . on my part i have interrogation documentation stating he changed his shirt and slacks at the rooming house . that is not supposition in the sense it was documented . he could have lied about doing that , but why ? .

and i think you ever look or perhaps choose to ignore the point here . if oswald did indeed change his shirt as he said , those freshly left fibers should never have been found . but they were so if Oswald did indeed change his shirt we then have to question how they got there . if they got there other than by oswald then we have a problem with reliability of evidence .

“These I removed and put on a glass microscope slide…because this little group of fibers—little tuft of fibers, appeared to be FRESH . The fibers on the rest of the gun were either adhering to a greasy, oily deposit or jammed into a crevice and were very dirty and apparently very old…the other fibers I cleaned up, removed the grease and examined them but they were of no value.  They were pretty well fragmented…They all appeared old…in excess of a month or two months.”  Stombaugh

[Richard Smith]

well now i call that moving the goal posts , and its supposition . while it is certainly not impossible that he could leave fibers from a particular shirt on the rifle at a point in the past well i just dont believe given the fbi testimony that in this case that this is what happened . the fibers were i believe freshly left . so again if he did not put on that brown shirt until about 1pm at his rooming house some 30 minutes after the shooting , how could he have left those fibers on the shirt . on my part i have interrogation documentation stating he changed his shirt and slacks at the rooming house . that is not supposition in the sense it was documented . he could have lied about doing that , but why ? .

and i think you ever look or perhaps choose to ignore the point here . if oswald did indeed change his shirt as he said , those freshly left fibers should never have been found . but they were so if Oswald did indeed change his shirt we then have to question how they got there . if they got there other than by oswald then we have a problem with reliability of evidence .

“These I removed and put on a glass microscope slide…because this little group of fibers—little tuft of fibers, appeared to be FRESH . The fibers on the rest of the gun were either adhering to a greasy, oily deposit or jammed into a crevice and were very dirty and apparently very old…the other fibers I cleaned up, removed the grease and examined them but they were of no value.  They were pretty well fragmented…They all appeared old…in excess of a month or two months.”  Stombaugh

No one is moving the goal posts.  You suggested that finding fibers from Oswald's shirt on the murder weapon was somehow a "problem" for those who believe he committed the crime.  Think about the logic behind that one.  I merely explained that the fibers link Oswald to the murder weapon regardless of whether he changed shirts that day.  They came from his shirt.  They were found on the rifle.  That is yet another link from Oswald to the murder weapon.  AND even if no such fibers had ever been discovered or can be linked to Oswald's shirt, there is abundant alternative evidence that links him beyond all doubt to the rifle left at the scene.  A rifle with a specific serial number was sent to his PO Box.  That rifle was left at Oswald's place of work.   It has the same serial number and his palm print as the rifle he was sent.  He is pictured holding it.  There is no accounting for any other rifle in his possession during this timeframe.  Oswald's rifle is missing on 11.22 when his own wife directs the police to the location where she knew he stored it.  That rifle was used to assassinate JFK.  It does not take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots. 

[Martin Weidmann]

No one is moving the goal posts.  You suggested that finding fibers from Oswald's shirt on the murder weapon was somehow a "problem" for those who believe he committed the crime.  Think about the logic behind that one.  I merely explained that the fibers link Oswald to the murder weapon regardless of whether he changed shirts that day.  They came from his shirt.  They were found on the rifle.  That is yet another link from Oswald to the murder weapon.  AND even if no such fibers had ever been discovered or can be linked to Oswald's shirt, there is abundant alternative evidence that links him beyond all doubt to the rifle left at the scene.  A rifle with a specific serial number was sent to his PO Box.  That rifle was left at Oswald's place of work.   It has the same serial number and his palm print as the rifle he was sent.  He is pictured holding it.  There is no accounting for any other rifle in his possession during this timeframe.  Oswald's rifle is missing on 11.22 when his own wife directs the police to the location where she knew he stored it.  That rifle was used to assassinate JFK.  It does not take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots.

Think about the logic behind that one.  I merely explained that the fibers link Oswald to the murder weapon regardless of whether he changed shirts that day.  They came from his shirt.  They were found on the rifle.  That is yet another link from Oswald to the murder weapon.

This is exactly the reason why talking to "Richard Smith" is an exercise in futility. No matter how often his BS and lies are conclusively debunked, he will just ignore it and repeat the same bogus claim again.

What he will never do is discuss the arguments that debunk his fairytale. He will try to ridicule it or use some kind of pathetic diversion, but he will never argue the underlying details of his BS. And there is only one reason for that; he already knows that his baseless claims do not withstand scrutiny.

It does not take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots.

But it takes a "Richard Smith" to make up dots that simply aren't there   

[Fergus O'Brien]

No one is moving the goal posts.  You suggested that finding fibers from Oswald's shirt on the murder weapon was somehow a "problem" for those who believe he committed the crime.  Think about the logic behind that one.  I merely explained that the fibers link Oswald to the murder weapon regardless of whether he changed shirts that day.  They came from his shirt.  They were found on the rifle.  That is yet another link from Oswald to the murder weapon.  AND even if no such fibers had ever been discovered or can be linked to Oswald's shirt, there is abundant alternative evidence that links him beyond all doubt to the rifle left at the scene.  A rifle with a specific serial number was sent to his PO Box.  That rifle was left at Oswald's place of work.   It has the same serial number and his palm print as the rifle he was sent.  He is pictured holding it.  There is no accounting for any other rifle in his possession during this timeframe.  Oswald's rifle is missing on 11.22 when his own wife directs the police to the location where she knew he stored it.  That rifle was used to assassinate JFK.  It does not take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots.

i suggested that finding FRESH fibers on the rifle from a shirt that it seems Oswald only put on 30 minutes after the shooting at beckley is a problem . and by the way this fiber evidence (from the shirt) when looked at closely (and it has been  by serious top researchers ) does not PROVE a link to oswald .

you say there is an abundance of evidence , some have said a VERITABLE MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE , but how much of this so called evidence stands up to close scrutiny ? . if there really was this ABUNDANCE , this MOUNTAIN of IRON clad proof  there would be no 60 year debate  . these forums would not exist , all the great researchers of our time would not have spent decades of their lives on this case . you just think about that

"I merely explained that the fibers link Oswald to the murder weapon regardless of whether he changed shirts that day.  They came from his shirt "

but you are intentionally ignoring the problem . you are offering supposition that the fibers were from the brown shirt but left there at some time in the past . when you know from your own warren commission expert that the fibers found were FRESH . you are saying it matters not one bit if he changed his shirt OR NOT so lets get this straight .FRESH fibers were found on the rifle in evidence (that we have been told were left on the rifle at 12.30) from a shirt that oswald said in interrogation that he only put on at 1pm on beckley .if this is indeed TRUE then logic dictates that those fibers got on that rifle in some illegal manner .and you say WELL WE CAN IGNORE / FORGET ABOUT ALL THAT , THAT THAT DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL , NOTHING TO SEE HERE , BECAUSE OTHER EVIDENCE PROVES OSWALD GUILTY . Bugliosi would indeed be proud of that mentality .