Oswald's Escape Route Time Trial

[Bill Brown]

Except Callaway didn’t say how long it was before he ran up to 10th.

After hearing the shots, you mean? True, he did not say specifically, but from his testimony it becomes clear that he started running towards 10th street after he watched the man with the revolver was on West-Jefferson.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask what course he was taking when you last saw him?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He was going west on Jefferson Street.
Mr. DULLES. West on Jefferson Street?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I hollered to this guy behind--B. D. Searcy.
Mr. BALL. What did you say to Mr. Searcy?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I told him to keep an eye on that guy, I says, "Keep an eye on that guy, follow him. I am going to go down there and see what is going on." So I ran, a good hard run, from here down around the corner.
Mr. BALL. 10th and Patton?

As the distance the man with the revolver had to run was one block (between 10th street and Jefferson) and Callaway's was less than a block, it is fair (IMO) to assume that it took less than 3 minutes. Considering the fact that Callaway said in his testimony that he ran, ,not only to 10th street, but also to the location where he was when he saw the man with the revolver, it seems unlikely to me that Callaway would have wasted much time between the two runs.

Mr. BALL. And when you heard the shots, what did you do?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I just hurried--I don't know whether I really ran or not.
But I hurried off the side of this porch and came to this position.

Is it a slam dunk? No of course not. One can also argue that Callaway just stood there for several minutes before he ran to 10th street, but that seems as unlikely to me as him drinking a coffee with his mates between the two runs.


Also, how can you tell by any of the radio recordings when Callaway got there, or how much time had elapsed since the shots?

You can't. All you can conclude from the radio recording is that Bowley's call took 48 seconds. There are only two things you can say; (1) when Callaway arrived at the scene Bowley had already finished his call and (2) the ambulance arrived at the scene when Callaway was making his call. Somewhere inbetween these two events Callaway must have arrived at the scene.

I agree with you on all of this.  Progress Ha Ha

I once created a thread titled "Ted Callaway And The 1:15 Shooting" or something like that.  It deals with the Callaway timeline.

Anyway, Callaway's call on the squad car radio to the dispatcher took place at 1:19.  Based on Callaway's description of his actions, he's making this call maybe four minutes after hearing the shots.

[Bill Brown]

hello bill its been a while , we go back to bob harris old forum .i hope you are well .

"The Secret Service and the FBI reconstructed Oswald's steps (with the help of Cecil McWatters and William Whaley) in an attempt to determine the absolute earliest that Oswald could have reached the rooming house." bill

well oswald may or may not have been on that bus , but i am  not sure what value mcwatters is , as he never identified oswald as the man on the bus . in fact if memory serves me he went to the line up believing he was identifying a young man on his bus who he said was grinning , called roy milton jones . he never positively identified  oswald from any line up . and in fact if i remember correctly both jones and mcwatters said the man on the bus wore a jacket , which contradicts bledsoe who i think is wholly unreliable . she said she saw oswald at about 12.40 on the bus wearing a shirt that was torn , buttons ripped from it and a hole in the elbow .that is quite a case of psychic ability given the damage she said she saw at about 12.40 would not occur for atleast a further hour at about 1.50 .

the transfer has long bothered me .i have no reason to doubt mcwatters gave out two transfers , i believe he told the truth .  but all he could say was one was given to a woman and the other to a man in a jacket .as i said he never identified the man as oswald , he only thought it was oswald and he only mentioned it might have been oswald to milton jones the nest day because he was led to believe by the police that oswald was the man on the bus .but in regard the transfer i have seen photos of it . now if one gave it no thought at all well it could be very easily accepted that that transfer was indeed in oswalds shirt pocket . but we have to consider the scuffle that took place at the theater and how many cops were involved , the condition of oswalds shirt after this encounter with the police at the theater and the manner in which he and the shirt were man handled by the police seen in photos taken at the time . how many pounced on oswald ? . look at the condition of the shirt ,torn and buttons ripped off and look at how the cops seen in photos are pulling and dragging at oswalds shirt while removing him from the theater .

now lets look at the transfer


can anyone see the problem i have with that transfer ? , there is not a wrinkle or crease in it , i cant see how that is possible given what i said above .

but even if we accept that oswald rode on the bus and in the cab it only proves he went home .whalley was not a great witness either in the sense that he admitted seeing oswalds face i believe in a newspaper before he went to a line up . and at the line up he said ANYONE WOULD HAVE PICKED OSWALD .why ? because he was complaining to the cops who if memory serves were putting him (a 24 year old man who looked atleast 30) in to a line up with teen boys one of whom was latino DARK COMPLECTED .and these were the line ups that the late jim leavelle said were fairly conducted lol .

how many times did whalley have to drive the route in order to get the time down to a time that suited ?. i think the earliest oswald can have arrived home at best was 1 and perhaps 2 minutes before 1pm so we are it seems not far apart in that respect ..we then have to allow for that which you make no allowances for .  that he was in his room several minutes , 3 or 4 according to roberts where he changed his slacks and shirt . and we further have to allow that he was still stood outside at the bus stop a time after he had left the rooming house .roberts said he did not leave the bus stop while she was looking .i believe he was still on beckley at 1.03 or 1.04 pm . at that even if we say he took macks short route well he still arrives too late .

hello bill its been a while , we go back to bob harris old forum .i hope you are well.

Yes Sir.  I remember.  How are you?  Do you know if Ol' Bob Harris is still around?  I used to talk to him but it's been at least 5 years since I've heard from him.

well oswald may or may not have been on that bus , but i am  not sure what value mcwatters is , as he never identified oswald as the man on the bus . in fact if memory serves me he went to the line up believing he was identifying a young man on his bus who he said was grinning , called roy milton jones.

I talked to Roy Milton Jones back in October of this year.  He told me that he doesn't recall Oswald boarding the bus because "it wasn't conspicuous" (his words).  I asked him if he remembered seeing Oswald on the bus for himself and he said after he saw Oswald on the news, he recognized his face as someone he had seen on the bus.  I then specifically asked him if, in his opinion, Oswald was on the bus and he said "Yes".

now if one gave it no thought at all well it could be very easily accepted that that transfer was indeed in oswalds shirt pocket . but we have to consider the scuffle that took place at the theater and how many cops were involved , the condition of oswalds shirt after this encounter with the police at the theater and the manner in which he and the shirt were man handled by the police seen in photos taken at the time . how many pounced on oswald ? . look at the condition of the shirt ,torn and buttons ripped off and look at how the cops seen in photos are pulling and dragging at oswalds shirt while removing him from the theater.

now lets look at the transfer...

Can't you imagine that the transfer has been placed under glass flattened for years, in effect straightening out any "creases" which may have occurred during the arrest?

i think the earliest oswald can have arrived home at best was 1 and perhaps 2 minutes before 1pm so we are it seems not far apart in that respect ..we then have to allow for that which you make no allowances for .  that he was in his room several minutes , 3 or 4 according to roberts...

Earlene Roberts gave various time estimates for how long Oswald was back in his room.  She said things like "about three or four minutes" and "maybe not over three or four minutes".  Both of these phrases are figures of speech, in my opinion not to be taken literal.  However, one description of time that she gave which is NOT a figure of speech is when she said he was back in his room "just long enough to go in there and get a jacket and put it on".  This is NOT a figure of speech.  This is a literal description of a length of time.  How long do you believe it takes to walk into one's room and grab a jacket and put it on?

[John Mytton]

can anyone see the problem i have with that transfer ? , there is not a wrinkle or crease in it , i cant see how that is possible given what i said above .

Look closely, the back Oswald's Bus transfer shows multiple folds.



JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

Yes Sir.  I remember.  How are you?  Do you know if Ol' Bob Harris is still around?  I used to talk to him but it's been at least 5 years since I've heard from him.


I talked to Roy Milton Jones back in October of this year.  He told me that he doesn't recall Oswald boarding the bus because "it wasn't conspicuous" (his words).  I asked him if he remembered seeing Oswald on the bus for himself and he said after he saw Oswald on the news, he recognized his face as someone he had seen on the bus.  I then specifically asked him if, in his opinion, Oswald was on the bus and he said "Yes".


Can't you imagine that the transfer has been placed under glass flattened for years, in effect straightening out any "creases" which may have occurred during the arrest?


Earlene Roberts gave various time estimates for how long Oswald was back in his room.  She said things like "about three or four minutes" and "maybe not over three or four minutes".  Both of these phrases are figures of speech, in my opinion not to be taken literal.  However, one description of time that she gave which is NOT a figure of speech is when she said he was back in his room "just long enough to go in there and get a jacket and put it on".  This is NOT a figure of speech.  This is a literal description of a length of time.  How long do you believe it takes to walk into one's room and grab a jacket and put it on?

However, one description of time that she gave which is NOT a figure of speech is when she said he was back in his room "just long enough to go in there and get a jacket and put it on".  This is NOT a figure of speech.  This is a literal description of a length of time.  How long do you believe it takes to walk into one's room and grab a jacket and put it on?

Roberts did not know what Oswald was doing in the room. She may have believed that he only grabbed a jacket, but what if, in reality he actually did change his clothes as well?

[Fergus O'Brien]

Yes Sir.  I remember.  How are you?  Do you know if Ol' Bob Harris is still around?  I used to talk to him but it's been at least 5 years since I've heard from him.


I talked to Roy Milton Jones back in October of this year.  He told me that he doesn't recall Oswald boarding the bus because "it wasn't conspicuous" (his words).  I asked him if he remembered seeing Oswald on the bus for himself and he said after he saw Oswald on the news, he recognized his face as someone he had seen on the bus.  I then specifically asked him if, in his opinion, Oswald was on the bus and he said "Yes".


Can't you imagine that the transfer has been placed under glass flattened for years, in effect straightening out any "creases" which may have occurred during the arrest?


Earlene Roberts gave various time estimates for how long Oswald was back in his room.  She said things like "about three or four minutes" and "maybe not over three or four minutes".  Both of these phrases are figures of speech, in my opinion not to be taken literal.  However, one description of time that she gave which is NOT a figure of speech is when she said he was back in his room "just long enough to go in there and get a jacket and put it on".  This is NOT a figure of speech.  This is a literal description of a length of time.  How long do you believe it takes to walk into one's room and grab a jacket and put it on?

i havent come across bob harris on my travels bill , not since i was last on his forum .

"I talked to Roy Milton Jones back in October of this year.  He told me that he doesn't recall Oswald boarding the bus because "it wasn't conspicuous" (his words).  I asked him if he remembered seeing Oswald on the bus for himself and he said after he saw Oswald on the news, he recognized his face as someone he had seen on the bus.  I then specifically asked him if, in his opinion, Oswald was on the bus and he said "Yes"." Bill brown

i see you have not changed at all in your approach , the do as i say not as i do approach lol . so in 59 years no one thought to ask Mr jones what you asked and he never thought to offer the info you say you gleaned from him ? .not the police , the FBI or any of the so called  investigations asked him what you asked him ? . i mean it is pretty important stuff is it not ? that he says he can ID Mr oswald as being on that bus . but only 59 years later does he mention that . so now can i presume that you accept statements from people made years or decades after the tragic events in question ? .or do you still have the same old stance that you used to have ? which was only statements made at the time of the event or in the days pretty close to it could be relied upon .i think it is a fair question given that that was your stance certainly on Bob harris forum .and i dont believe it was any different here . oh and i need to point out that i am not trying to disrespect you or attack you here , it is just that if one holds a stance and then acts contradictory to that stance , that i feel that that should be highlighted and discussed .

humans rarely take any note of things or people that do not stand out . a young man ,just  like any other regular young man in the world gets on a bus , and takes a seat and sits there without saying a word . to use the word you used there was nothing at all CONSPICUOUS . Mcwatters testified he had close contact with a man and gave him a transfer , yet he could not state on the day or even in testimony who that man was .

Mr. BALL - As I understand it, neither then nor now are you able to identify or say that you have again seen the man that got off your bus to whom you gave a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; I couldn't. I could not identify him.

Mcwatters further testified to the following .

Mr. McWATTERS - He got off at Brownley, because the man rode with me the next day.
Mr. BALL - You went out there the next day, did you?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With an FBI man or a Dallas policeman?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, I mean--
Mr. BALL - The same teenager?
Mr. McWATTERS - The same teenager rode with me the next day.
Mr. BALL - And you noticed he got off there?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, and I noticed, and I asked him, like I told him, I said that I was--I thought that, you know, that he was, when he first got on down there, I says, "From all indications, we had you kind of pinpointed as the man who might have been mixed up in the assassination and everything." And--
Mr. BALL - Do I understand the day after you made the affidavit, this would be the 23d of November?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - That this same teenager got on your bus again?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, he got on.
Mr. BALL - And you noticed where you let him off?
Mr. McWATTERS - I noticed where I let him off, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Is that the reason that today you remember he got off?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is it today I remember, just like I say, I remember I talked to him the next day, and he told me where he got on, and he told me where he got on, and where he got off and where he lived, and, you know that--
Mr. BALL - Has he been on your bus since?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - He has?
Mr. McWATTERS - He has rode with me since.

so here is Mcwatters testifying that the very next day he spoke to Jones , that he told jones the very next day that they  thought he might have been the one mixed up in the shooting , that he spoke to Jones again after that also . now nowhere did he say that Mr jones told him that OSWALD was the man on the bus , that he saw him and remembered him NOWHERE . these two guys discussing that they were on the same bus that the police say oswald was on , and apparently not once did Jones say to Mcwatters HE YOU KNOW I SAW HIM , I SAW OSWALD ON THE BUS LARGE AS LIFE .

"Earlene Roberts gave various time estimates for how long Oswald was back in his room.  She said things like "about three or four minutes" and "maybe not over three or four minutes".  Both of these phrases are figures of speech, in my opinion not to be taken literal.  However, one description of time that she gave which is NOT a figure of speech is when she said he was back in his room "just long enough to go in there and get a jacket and put it on".  This is NOT a figure of speech.  This is a literal description of a length of time.  How long do you believe it takes to walk into one's room and grab a jacket and put it on? " Bill brown

i guess then Bill that you dont accept and that you dispute that oswald changed his shirt and slacks , even tho it was noted in the interrogation notes , i am sure you will confirm your stance on this matter what ever that stance is. i dont believe that one saying something took 3 to 4 minutes was a figure of speech , and i dont believe Roberts took such a close look at him as he left as to know if he had changed his shirt and slacks . but i can fully understand why any LN would seek to deny that Oswald changed his clothing , the time it would take would be part of it , but then LN would have a shirt in evidence , and fibers from it supposedly left on the rifle at 12.30 at  the depository when said shirt was only put on at the rooming house in and around 1pm . i can see how that would be a problem .

nice to talk to you again Bill after so long , it is always a pleasure . take care .

[Martin Weidmann]

I agree with you on all of this.  Progress Ha Ha

I once created a thread titled "Ted Callaway And The 1:15 Shooting" or something like that.  It deals with the Callaway timeline.

Anyway, Callaway's call on the squad car radio to the dispatcher took place at 1:19.  Based on Callaway's description of his actions, he's making this call maybe four minutes after hearing the shots.

Callaway's call on the squad car radio to the dispatcher took place at 1:19.

How disappointing. And you were doing so well....

he's making this call maybe four minutes after hearing the shots.

So the shots were fired no sooner than 1:15?

Amazing... by that time Helen Markham, after taking 9 minutes to walk two blocks, would have been at the bus stop on Jefferson, either catching a delayed 1:12 bus or waiting for the 1:22 one. Go figure..

[Fergus O'Brien]

However, one description of time that she gave which is NOT a figure of speech is when she said he was back in his room "just long enough to go in there and get a jacket and put it on".  This is NOT a figure of speech.  This is a literal description of a length of time.  How long do you believe it takes to walk into one's room and grab a jacket and put it on?

Roberts did not know what Oswald was doing in the room. She may have believed that he only grabbed a jacket, but what if, in reality he actually did change his clothes as well?

indeed . she had no reason to think about him changing clothes etc . yes she did notice his return and departure she was also working on her tv , plus noting police cars outside . i dont think she paid GREAT attention oswald , yes she took notice but he was not her main focus of attention in my opinion .Oswald was noted in interrogation saying he changed his clothing , his shirt and slacks . why would he offer that information ?. i dont think he was sat there in Fritz office thinking ive got to give my self less time by dreaming up ways to add more time to things he did . in fact if we say he was indeed guilty well he in saying MY CLOTHES THAT I WORE IN WORK ARE IN THAT DRAWER THERE well he was giving them evidence to use against him .despite what some say oswald was not stupid . Roberts gave an estimate , not an unreasonable estimate of time , but as you accurately state she had no reason believe he never changed clothes .

but there is one good reason why LN would never want to have to admit he changed his slacks and shirt . if he went to his rooming house wearing the red shirt he wore in work , took it off and ONLY put on the brown shirt at 1pm in his room . how could he possibly have left fresh fibers from that brown shirt on the rifle at the depository at 12.30 ? . if Oswald did indeed change his shirt that creates serious obvious problems for LN .