Q9

[John Iacoletti]

Not very close to the alleged path of the "single bullet".  Note that it exits "JFK"'s chest and enters way below "Connally"'s armpit.

[Charles Collins]

Not very close to the alleged path of the "single bullet".  Note that it exits "JFK"'s chest and enters way below "Connally"'s armpit.

The windy conditions caused the platform on the crane to rock in the breeze. But he was still able to get fairly close to the target. He missed to the left and slightly low. Based on my two-laser experiment posted in another thread, I would estimate the exit on the JFK figure could have been to the left and slightly lower than the actual wound in JFK’s throat.




The entry in the JBC figure is only slightly low and to the left.





It appears to have broken the seventh and eighth ribs instead of only the fifth rib. Take your fingers and feel how much distance there is between these ribs on yourself. That is about how much the shot missed the target by (not very much considering the windy conditions).





It exited the JBC figure around the right nipple area and hit another bone in the wrist block. And the bullet had lost enough energy by that time that it just bounced off of the thigh block instead of slightly penetrating it.





The bullet was found intact but with more disfiguration than CE 399. It didn’t fragment or completely obliterate a “wrist bone”.




No one is likely to ever exactly duplicate the single bullet path even with unlimited resources and time. But I think that this demonstration shows that it is feasible.

[Charles Collins]

Oh, and here is the first part of the Australian demonstration video for those who might be interested.

[Martin Weidmann]

We're not in Martin's thread. I'm asking you here. Why do you believe that CE 399 was not the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connally?

How have you determined that CE-399 was not the bullet that struck Connally's wrist?

Dr Gregory testified that the bullet passed through the bone. That the hole is not apparent to you in the X-Ray does not mean that it isn't there.

The determination that the bullet struck the wrist base end forward was based on wound ballistics and the sizes and dispositions of the entry and exit wounds. Officially, the bullet did not enter Connally's torso nose first. It was already yawed before entering. When it exited the chest, it was already moving with base end forward.

The exit wound was a half centimeter in length. Your not buying it doesn't make it any less so.
Gregory said it was there. Was he lying?

I don't know.

You can't explain it , yet there it is. Same goes for Frazier referring to it as a fragment.

Gregory said two or three. He really couldn't recall.
The X-Rays prove nothing.
The foreign body envelope says fragments. Audrey Bell said four fragments. CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.

You're the one who introduced the "dodgy, heavily pixelated pic" here, not me.

We're not in Martin's thread. I'm asking you here. Why do you believe that CE 399 was not the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connally?

Why would you want to repeat an entire conversation when you can also go to the other thread and find out what you want to know?

Are you just lazy, Tim, or are you just expecting another outcome from the same conversation?

Talk about arguments for argument's sake....

How have you determined that CE-399 was not the bullet that struck Connally's wrist?

Why would anybody have to determine that, when there is not a shred of evidence that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 either struck Connally's wrist or was even found at Parkland?

Dr Gregory testified that the bullet passed through the bone. That the hole is not apparent to you in the X-Ray does not mean that it isn't there.

And Dr Humes said in his WC testimony that he did not believe the bullet now known as CE399 could have gone through Kennedy and Connally. So, where does that leave us?

[Dan O'meara]

We're not in Martin's thread. I'm asking you here. Why do you believe that CE 399 was not the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connally?

How have you determined that CE-399 was not the bullet that struck Connally's wrist?

You're asking me "here"?
We're on an internet forum. You don't have to trudge across town to read Martin's thread. Martin's thread is also "here". It's a couple of clicks away.
The evidence and arguments that stem from that evidence are lengthy so I will not be reproducing them "here".
But here's a few highlights:

O P Wright (ex-Deputy Chief of Police), the man who handed the bullet found on the stretcher into the official chain of custody, categorically denies that bullet was CE399. As far as he was concerned the bullet had a pointed tip. As ex-police he knows a thing or two about bullets.

Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley all refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.

Johnsen and Rowley had already destroyed the chain of custody by not putting their initials on CE 399 and when given the chance to correct this error they both refused to identify CE 399 as the bullet they handled that day. Thus destroying the chain of custody,not once but, twice.
I believe the reason their initials are not on CE399 is because it was not the bullet they handled that day.
I believe the reason they refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day is because it was not the bullet they handled that day.

There's plenty more but if you're actually interested in why I don't believe CE399 was involved in the shooting you'll have to go all the way over "there" to read it.

Dr Gregory testified that the bullet passed through the bone. That the hole is not apparent to you in the X-Ray does not mean that it isn't there.

There is a channel through the wrist because something passed through the wrist and exited through the small slit at the crease of the wrist.
I'm not disputing that there was a hole there.
What I am disputing is that a whole bullet passed through the wrist-bone, the radius.

The determination that the bullet struck the wrist base end forward was based on wound ballistics and the sizes and dispositions of the entry and exit wounds.

Gregory says it entered base-first because the base was the only place the flakes could have come from. Nothing to do with wound ballistics or anything else.

The exit wound was a half centimeter in length. Your not buying it doesn't make it any less so.

Half a centimeter??
That makes it even more unlikely CE 399 exited through a slit that was less than the diameter of the bullet.
Gregory expresses his surprise that the slit is the exit wound as the smaller wound is usually the entrance wound.

Gregory said it was there. Was he lying?

Can you point out the hole through the radius on the X-rays. Because I can't see it.
Can you?

You can't explain it , yet there it is. Same goes for Frazier referring to it as a fragment.

That's the point of this thread, Tim. There's lots of contrary things about this aspect of the case that don't make sense.
It's not enough to try and just wish it away.

Gregory said two or three. He really couldn't recall.
The X-Rays prove nothing.
The foreign body envelope says fragments. Audrey Bell said four fragments. CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.

CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.

No it isn't, that's the point of this thread.
CE 842 is Q9 which was labeled as a single fragment. Frazier talked about Q9 as a single fragment in his testimony. The original FBI report states that Gregory said he only removed a single fragment and no more. The hospital memo states that Bell released a single fragment to Nolan.
Gregory never states he removed four fragments anywhere - one, two, three, but not four.

You're the one who introduced the "dodgy, heavily pixelated pic" here, not me.

Ermm,,,
No, Tim.
That was definitely you.

[Tim Nickerson]

O P Wright (ex-Deputy Chief of Police), the man who handed the bullet found on the stretcher into the official chain of custody, categorically denies that bullet was CE399. As far as he was concerned the bullet had a pointed tip. As ex-police he knows a thing or two about bullets.

O.P. Wright did not categorically deny that CE-399 was the bullet that he handled on Nov 22, 1963. In fact, he told Bardwell Odum that it appeared to be the same bullet.

Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley all refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.

Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley couldn't positively identify CE-399 as being the bullet they handled because none of them had placed their mark on it. Tomlinson and Wright both did say that it looked to be the same bullet though.

Johnsen and Rowley had already destroyed the chain of custody by not putting their initials on CE 399 and when given the chance to correct this error they both refused to identify CE 399 as the bullet they handled that day. Thus destroying the chain of custody,not once but, twice.
I believe the reason their initials are not on CE399 is because it was not the bullet they handled that day.
I believe the reason they refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day is because it was not the bullet they handled that day.

If a chain of custody was needed, the one that existed would be perfectly fine. Johnsen placing the bullet in the envelope, sealing it, and attaching a letter to the envelope satisfies his link. Rowley did not open the envelope. He wrote a letter about his link. Elmer Todd confirmed that he received the envelope from Rowley. There is no chain of custody issue except in the minds of out of touch conspiracy theorists. CE-399 would not even need a chain of custody to get admitted in court as evidence. It's a non-fungible item that had been made readily identifiable by both Elmer Todd and Robert Frazier. Either one of their positive IDs would suffice. In fact, Frazier positively identified it during his sworn WC testimony.

There is a channel through the wrist because something passed through the wrist and exited through the small slit at the crease of the wrist.
I'm not disputing that there was a hole there.
What I am disputing is that a whole bullet passed through the wrist-bone, the radius.

Gregory testified that it passed through the radius.

Gregory says it entered base-first because the base was the only place the flakes could have come from. Nothing to do with wound ballistics or anything else.

Wound ballistics says that the bullet turned around and exited the chest base end forward.

The word tumbling, whether in air or in tissue, gives the impression that the bullet rotates many times, end-over-end, as it penetrates, but the bullet actually seldom makes a complete 360° turn before exiting a target the size of a human body. Most bullets will never make the full circle, no matter how deeply they penetrate. If it stops in the target, the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward.

Sturdivan, Larry M.. JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination (p. 246). Paragon House. Kindle Edition.

Half a centimeter??
That makes it even more unlikely CE 399 exited through a slit that was less than the diameter of the bullet.

Why?

Can you point out the hole through the radius on the X-rays. Because I can't see it.
Can you?

I can make out what looks to be a hole in the radius. There are actually a couple of candidates for a hole on one of the X-Rays.

CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.

No it isn't, that's the point of this thread.
CE 842 is Q9 which was labeled as a single fragment. Frazier talked about Q9 as a single fragment in his testimony. The original FBI report states that Gregory said he only removed a single fragment and no more. The hospital memo states that Bell released a single fragment to Nolan.
Gregory never states he removed four fragments anywhere - one, two, three, but not four.

CE-842 is four fragments. CE-842 was submitted into evidence during Frazier's testimony. CE-842 is proof that Dr. Gregory removed four fragments from Connally.

Ermm,,,
No, Tim.
That was definitely you.

That is False. You introduced it here three days before I even joined the thread.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3681.msg144193.html#msg144193

[Martin Weidmann]

O.P. Wright did not categorically deny that CE-399 was the bullet that he handled on Nov 22, 1963. In fact, he told Bardwell Odum that it appeared to be the same bullet.

Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley couldn't positively identify CE-399 as being the bullet they handled because none of them had placed their mark on it. Tomlinson and Wright both did say that it looked to be the same bullet though.

If a chain of custody was needed, the one that existed would be perfectly fine. Johnsen placing the bullet in the envelope, sealing it, and attaching a letter to the envelope satisfies his link. Rowley did not open the envelope. He wrote a letter about his link. Elmer Todd confirmed that he received the envelope from Rowley. There is no chain of custody issue except in the minds of out of touch conspiracy theorists. CE-399 would not even need a chain of custody to get admitted in court as evidence. It's a non-fungible item that had been made readily identifiable by both Elmer Todd and Robert Frazier. Either one of their positive IDs would suffice. In fact, Frazier positively identified it during his sworn WC testimony.

Gregory testified that it passed through the radius.

Wound ballistics says that the bullet turned around and exited the chest base end forward.

The word tumbling, whether in air or in tissue, gives the impression that the bullet rotates many times, end-over-end, as it penetrates, but the bullet actually seldom makes a complete 360° turn before exiting a target the size of a human body. Most bullets will never make the full circle, no matter how deeply they penetrate. If it stops in the target, the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward.

Sturdivan, Larry M.. JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination (p. 246). Paragon House. Kindle Edition.

Why?

I can make out what looks to be a hole in the radius. There are actually a couple of candidates for a hole on one of the X-Rays.


CE-842 is four fragments. CE-842 was submitted into evidence during Frazier's testimony. CE-842 is proof that Dr. Gregory removed four fragments from Connally.

That is False. You introduced it here three days before I even joined the thread.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3681.msg144193.html#msg144193

In fact, he told Bardwell Odum that it appeared to be the same bullet.

No he didn't. That's just what it said in CE2011. Odum denied that he ever had or showed CE399 to anybody. The FBI just made it up to satisfy the WC. Odum's name is not in the chain of custody for CE399.

Tomlinson and Wright both did say that it looked to be the same bullet though.

Again, no they didn't. Shanklin's airtel proves this is false and Tomlinson is on record twice saying that he was shown a bullet only once, by SAC Shanklin, about a week after the assassination. Tomlinson and Wright never told Odum anything of the kind.

If a chain of custody was needed, the one that existed would be perfectly fine. Johnsen placing the bullet in the envelope, sealing it, and attaching a letter to the envelope satisfies his link. Rowley did not open the envelope. He wrote a letter about his link. Elmer Todd confirmed that he received the envelope from Rowley. There is no chain of custody issue except in the minds of out of touch conspiracy theorists. CE-399 would not even need a chain of custody to get admitted in court as evidence. It's a non-fungible item that had been made readily identifiable by both Elmer Todd and Robert Frazier. Either one of their positive IDs would suffice. In fact, Frazier positively identified it during his sworn WC testimony.

Total BS... Todd and Frazier received a bullet in Washington. There is not a shred of evidence that it was that same bullet Tomlinson found on a stretcher at Parkland and Frazier's testimony most certainly did not confirm that it was.

But even if your fairytale story was remotely true, then why did the WC ask the FBI for authentication of several pieces of evidence including CE399? You ran from this question last time. Let's see if you can answer it now!