Q9

[Tim Nickerson]

Amazing how this chain of custody matter is being commented about by somebody who in another thread claims that inclusion in a chain of custody isn't necessary.

It seems to me that those fragments were not, and are not, readily identifiable. I think having a chain of custody for them would probably be recommended. But, I'm not a self-proclaimed lawyer like you. So, what do I know?

[Mitch Todd]

Nice work Tim, you've cleared up so many issues including a massive error on my part regarding CE843. I thought that there were only two fragments removed from JFK's head and there appeared to be 3 fragments in the picture I posted which confused me. The two fragments from JBC's wrist can be seen in the rectangular transparent container next to the envelope in the top picture:



These are obviously the two fragments Gregory testifies to removing, which is confirmed by the pre-op and post-op X-rays.
Audrey Bell must be mistaken about the number of fragments removed and about turning them over to a plainclothes officer instead of s State Trooper (unless Nolan wasn't in uniform that day).
The envelope is surely the one that made it's from from Bell to Nolan to Fritz to Drain to Frazier.

The FBI report [30/11/63] about Gregory removing a single fragment must also be some kind of mistake.
It is also possible that Frazier labeling Q9 as a single fragment instead of multiple fragments might be some kind of convention, although in other examples he specifically refers to the amount of fragments. And in his WC testimony he only refers to a single fragment.

The only thing that hasn't really been cleared up is the picture of Q9 [FBI C9] in the National Archives:



I don't see how this can possibly relate to the two fragments taken from JBC's wrist.

The spectrographic testing that was done by the FBI was destructive, so instead of subjecting the entire fragment to testing, samples were cut from the fragment and used instead. They were not always destroyed, and those pieces may have been reunited with the other fragments in the exhibit. I'm not saying that this is what happened, but it's worth keeping in mind.

BTW, the NAA was a bit different. While NAA is not inherently destructive, it does involve shoving a sample into the heart of a nuclear reactor and irradiating the hell out of it. While the sample won't lose any mass, it tend to become highly radioactive. IIRC, the bits that were used for NAA were discarded as radioactive waste after testing. 

[Dan O'meara]

Audrey Bell was not mistaken about the number of fragments. Those four in CE-842 are fragments that Dr. Gregory removed from the wrist. Bell was mistaken about who she passed the fragments to though. It was Nolan and he had to have been out of uniform. That was not uncommon for Texas Highway Patrolmen back then. Gregory never specified in his operative report of Nov 22 as to how many fragments that he removed. He just wrote that "Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound and these were wherever they were identified and could be picked up were picked up". According to Gregory, one of the Pre-OP X-Rays appeared to show seven or eight.

CE-843 contains two fragments, not three.

Hi Tim, I was grateful you cleared up the error I made about CE 843, and I'm glad to get a chance to return the favour,
When Gregory is referring to the seven or eight fragments, he is referring to bone fragments:

Dr GREGORY: "...[X-ray]"A" then demonstrates a comminuted fracture of the wrist with three fragments.
Mr. Specter: What do you mean by comminuted?
Dr. GREGORY. Comminuted refers to shattering, to break into more than two pieces, specifically many pieces, and if I may, I can point out there is a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, and there are several smaller fragments lying in the center of these three larger ones.
Mr. Specter:How many fragments are there in total, sir, in your opinion?
Dr. GREGORY. I would judge from this view that counting each isolated fragment there are fully seven or eight, and experience has taught that when these things are dismantled directly under direct vision that there very obviously may be more than that.

In his WC testimony, Gregory refers to two metallic fragments he removed from JBC. He uses a pre-op X-ray and a post-op X-ray to make his point:



In the pre-op X-ray we can see a larger fragment with a small particle next to it.
In the post-op X-ray they are gone.
The picture of CE 842 which has the envelope and the rectangular clear plastic container. In the container are two fragments - a larger one and a small particle. These two fragments are Q9, even though Frazier believes it is a single fragment.



The problem is that the picture of Q9 in the National Archive has four fragments. A larger one and three smaller ones.
It appears the small particle has disappeared and been replaced by 3 slightly larger fragments.
These 3 additional fragments cannot have come from JBC's wrist, so where have they come from?

[Tim Nickerson]

Hi Tim, I was grateful you cleared up the error I made about CE 843, and I'm glad to get a chance to return the favour,
When Gregory is referring to the seven or eight fragments, he is referring to bone fragments:

Dr GREGORY: "...[X-ray]"A" then demonstrates a comminuted fracture of the wrist with three fragments.
Mr. Specter: What do you mean by comminuted?
Dr. GREGORY. Comminuted refers to shattering, to break into more than two pieces, specifically many pieces, and if I may, I can point out there is a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, and there are several smaller fragments lying in the center of these three larger ones.
Mr. Specter:How many fragments are there in total, sir, in your opinion?
Dr. GREGORY. I would judge from this view that counting each isolated fragment there are fully seven or eight, and experience has taught that when these things are dismantled directly under direct vision that there very obviously may be more than that.

In his WC testimony, Gregory refers to two metallic fragments he removed from JBC. He uses a pre-op X-ray and a post-op X-ray to make his point:



In the pre-op X-ray we can see a larger fragment with a small particle next to it.
In the post-op X-ray they are gone.
The picture of CE 842 which has the envelope and the rectangular clear plastic container. In the container are two fragments - a larger one and a small particle. These two fragments are Q9, even though Frazier believes it is a single fragment.



The problem is that the picture of Q9 in the National Archive has four fragments. A larger one and three smaller ones.
It appears the small particle has disappeared and been replaced by 3 slightly larger fragments.
These 3 additional fragments cannot have come from JBC's wrist, so where have they come from?

Thank you for pointing out my error to me. I stand corrected. Regarding the question on the number of fragments in CE-842, you should be wary of using the poor quality photocopy for determining the number of fragments in that exhibit. I think that your yellow labelling has hidden the other two tiny fragments from view.

[Dan O'meara]

Thank you for pointing out my error to me. I stand corrected. Regarding the question on the number of fragments in CE-842, you should be wary of using the poor quality photocopy for determining the number of fragments in that exhibit. I think that your yellow labelling has hidden the other two tiny fragments from view.

I discounted the other "fragment" for two reasons.
Firstly, the X-rays I posted show that two fragments have been removed from JBC's leg - a larger one and s small particle.
The two fragments Gregory testified to removing.
I assumed the fragments I labeled were these two fragments as the other "fragment" appears as just a straight line in the pic I was using:



But in the pic you posted it does appear as two separate things.
Which makes things even more baffling.
The FBI report states that Gregory only removed one fragment.
Frazier labels Q9 as a single fragment and states in his WC testimony Q9 is a single fragment.
When Frazier found three small fragments on the limo floor he labeled them as three fragments, not a single fragment. Why would he list four fragments from JBC's arm as a single fragment?
Gregory testifies that he removed two fragments.
The X-rays show he removed two fragments.
Audrey Bell states she received "perhaps 4" fragments.
The picture in the National Archives shows four fragments.

WTF is going on??

[Tim Nickerson]

I discounted the other "fragment" for two reasons.
Firstly, the X-rays I posted show that two fragments have been removed from JBC's leg - a larger one and s small particle.
The two fragments Gregory testified to removing.
I assumed the fragments I labeled were these two fragments as the other "fragment" appears as just a straight line in the pic I was using:



But in the pic you posted it does appear as two separate things.
Which makes things even more baffling.
The FBI report states that Gregory only removed one fragment.
Frazier labels Q9 as a single fragment and states in his WC testimony Q9 is a single fragment.
When Frazier found three small fragments on the limo floor he labeled them as three fragments, not a single fragment. Why would he list four fragments from JBC's arm as a single fragment?
Gregory testifies that he removed two fragments.
The X-rays show he removed two fragments.
Audrey Bell states she received "perhaps 4" fragments.
The picture in the National Archives shows four fragments.

WTF is going on??

Dr. Gregory said that he thought that he removed two or three fragments. Audrey Bell said three to five. She thought four. There was more than one X-Ray taken pre-operation. That some tiny fragments did not show on those X-rays does not mean that they were not in the wrist.

The four fragments at one time were referred to in the singular by Bell herself. Three are so tiny that they just did not stand out like the large one did. None of the fragments found by Frazier in the limo were tiny. All three appear to be of equal size.

[Dan O'meara]

Dr. Gregory said that he thought that he removed two or three fragments. Audrey Bell said three to five. She thought four. There was more than one X-Ray taken pre-operation. That some tiny fragments did not show on those X-rays does not mean that they were not in the wrist.

The four fragments at one time were referred to in the singular by Bell herself. Three are so tiny that they just did not stand out like the large one did. None of the fragments found by Frazier in the limo were tiny. All three appear to be of equal size.

Dr. Gregory said that he thought that he removed two or three fragments.

Could you cite where he says this because in his WC testimony he is adamant he removed just two.
He points to three metal fragments in the pre-op X-ray then points out the two that have been removed in the post-op X-ray and states that he removed the two fragments that are missing from the post-op X-ray.

Audrey Bell said three to five. She thought four.

Agreed

There was more than one X-Ray taken pre-operation

Yeah, Gregory states that in his WC testimony. But I'm not 100% sure what point you're making.

That some tiny fragments did not show on those X-rays does not mean that they were not in the wrist.

To be honest, Tim, this just sounds like something you're making up.
As far as this aspect of the case is concerned, there is no evidence to support this and strong evidence to refute it.
The pre-op X-ray clearly shows a larger fragment and a "satellite" fragment near it. Any other fragments the same size as the "satellite" fragment would have shown up as well.
Are you basing this statement on any kind of evidence?

The four fragments at one time were referred to in the singular by Bell herself.

Could you cite where this is as I can't find it.

Three are so tiny that they just did not stand out like the large one did. None of the fragments found by Frazier in the limo were tiny. All three appear to be of equal size.

Again, I'm not sure what your point is.
Are you saying that Frazier simply missed three of the Q9 fragments because they were so small, and that is why he referred to Q9 as a single fragment?