Q9

[Tim Nickerson]

Dr. Gregory said that he thought that he removed two or three fragments.

Could you cite where he says this because in his WC testimony he is adamant he removed just two.

Dr. GREGORY - A preliminary X-ray had indicated that there were metallic fragments or at least metallic fragments which cast metallic shadows in the soft tissues around the wounded forearm. Two or three of these were identified and were recovered and were observed to be metallic in consistency.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/gregory2.htm

That some tiny fragments did not show on those X-rays does not mean that they were not in the wrist.

To be honest, Tim, this just sounds like something you're making up.
As far as this aspect of the case is concerned, there is no evidence to support this and strong evidence to refute it.
The pre-op X-ray clearly shows a larger fragment and a "satellite" fragment near it. Any other fragments the same size as the "satellite" fragment would have shown up as well.
Are you basing this statement on any kind of evidence?

The fragments are so tiny that Audrey Bell could not make them out in the photocopy image of them during her ARRB interview. You failed to see two of them yourself. I'm not making anything up.

The four fragments at one time were referred to in the singular by Bell herself.

Could you cite where this is as I can't find it.

I already showed you once. Here it is again:

Three are so tiny that they just did not stand out like the large one did. None of the fragments found by Frazier in the limo were tiny. All three appear to be of equal size.

Again, I'm not sure what your point is.
Are you saying that Frazier simply missed three of the Q9 fragments because they were so small, and that is why he referred to Q9 as a single fragment?

I'm saying that Frazier did similar to what Audrey Bell did. The large fragment stands out. The other three are so tiny that they were ignored by Frazier.

What are you reaching for with this whole thing anyway? CE-842 speaks for itself. Four fragments in total.

[Dan O'meara]

Dr. GREGORY - A preliminary X-ray had indicated that there were metallic fragments or at least metallic fragments which cast metallic shadows in the soft tissues around the wounded forearm. Two or three of these were identified and were recovered and were observed to be metallic in consistency.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/gregory2.htm

The fragments are so tiny that Audrey Bell could not make them out in the photocopy image of them during her ARRB interview. You failed to see two of them yourself. I'm not making anything up.

I already showed you once. Here it is again:



I'm saying that Frazier did similar to what Audrey Bell did. The large fragment stands out. The other three are so tiny that they were ignored by Frazier.

What are you reaching for with this whole thing anyway? CE-842 speaks for itself. Four fragments in total.

What are you reaching for with this whole thing anyway?

Although both JFK and JBC were shot through with the same bullet, I do not believe that bullet was CE 399.
It is my opinion that the bullet passed through both men and fragmented upon impact with JBC's wrist.



Above is a picture of a wrist bone through which a bullet has traveled.
I understand it, it makes sense to me - the bullet has impacted the bone and as it has travelled through the bone it has removed the bone out of the way leaving a hole where bone used to be. It seems obvious, to me at least, that in order for the bullet to travel through the bone, it has to move the bone out of the way. This leaves a hole where the bullet has traveled, as in the picture above.


(originally posted by Jerry Organ)

I don't understand this picture.
How has the bullet traveled through the bone without moving it out of the way? Where is the hole?
I could understand it if the bullet entered the wrist from directly above and passed btween the two main bones of the arm. But that's not what happens. The bullet impacts the radius from the side and, apparently, passes through one of the most dense bones in the body and exits through the crease of the wrist. The transit of the bullet is from one side of the radius to the other, without moving the bone out of the way.

There are no bullet fragments in JBC's chest even though one of his ribs was obliterated. But there are multiple fragments related to the wrist injury. I wanted to understand the wrist injury in more detail, particularly how many fragments were removed/remained in the wrist.
Immediately I came across the FBI report [11/30/63] stating Gregory removed one fragment and no other bits of metal and then Gregory's operative record revealing the he removed multiple fragments. The more information I found the more confusing things became. So now I'm just trying to unravel what was going on with the fragments.

By the way, I don't buy your heavily pixelated picture supposedly revealing two more fragments.
I don't buy that there were fragments that didn't show up in the many X-rays but were still mysteriously present.
I also don't buy that Frazier receives a package stating that it contains "fragments" (plural), but only notices one fragment in the transparent plastic case. Or that, months later, he still testifies that Q9 is a single fragment.

CE-842 speaks for itself. Four fragments in total.

It most certainly does. Four fragments in total - even though only two were removed from JBC's wrist.

[Tim Nickerson]

What are you reaching for with this whole thing anyway?

Although both JFK and JBC were shot through with the same bullet, I do not believe that bullet was CE 399.

Why not?

It is my opinion that the bullet passed through both men and fragmented upon impact with JBC's wrist.

What are you basing that opinion on?

Above is a picture of a wrist bone through which a bullet has traveled.
I understand it, it makes sense to me - the bullet has impacted the bone and as it has travelled through the bone it has removed the bone out of the way leaving a hole where bone used to be. It seems obvious, to me at least, that in order for the bullet to travel through the bone, it has to move the bone out of the way. This leaves a hole where the bullet has traveled, as in the picture above.

The bullet that struck that wrist was travelling at near muzzle velocity. That's why the damage is so severe and the hole is so obvious.

(originally posted by Jerry Organ)

I don't understand this picture.
How has the bullet traveled through the bone without moving it out of the way? Where is the hole?
I could understand it if the bullet entered the wrist from directly above and passed btween the two main bones of the arm. But that's not what happens. The bullet impacts the radius from the side and, apparently, passes through one of the most dense bones in the body and exits through the crease of the wrist. The transit of the bullet is from one side of the radius to the other, without moving the bone out of the way.

When the bullet struck that bone it was travelling well below muzzle velocity. The bone was moved out of the way. And while the hole may not be apparent in that X-Ray, it is there.

There are no bullet fragments in JBC's chest even though one of his ribs was obliterated. But there are multiple fragments related to the wrist injury.

The reason that fragments were deposited in the wrist is because the bullet struck it base end forward. Lead that was extruding from the flattened bullet broke off.

I wanted to understand the wrist injury in more detail, particularly how many fragments were removed/remained in the wrist.
Immediately I came across the FBI report [11/30/63] stating Gregory removed one fragment and no other bits of metal and then Gregory's operative record revealing the he removed multiple fragments. The more information I found the more confusing things became. So now I'm just trying to unravel what was going on with the fragments.

By the way, I don't buy your heavily pixelated picture supposedly revealing two more fragments.
I don't buy that there were fragments that didn't show up in the many X-rays but were still mysteriously present.
I also don't buy that Frazier receives a package stating that it contains "fragments" (plural), but only notices one fragment in the transparent plastic case. Or that, months later, he still testifies that Q9 is a single fragment.

CE-842 speaks for itself. Four fragments in total.

It most certainly does. Four fragments in total - even though only two were removed from JBC's wrist.

Explain the conflicting information contained in the following two images.





You can deny what is seen in my "heavily pixelated picture" all you want, but you cannot honestly deny that CE-842 is made up of four fragments. Those fragments were removed from Connally's wrist by Dr. Gregory, as confirmed by Audrey Bell.

[Dan O'meara]

Why not?

This is discussed at length in martin's thread, "A Time to Receive and Give (CE399)

What are you basing that opinion on?

CE399 was not the bullet that impacted JBC's wrist. So the imperative, to have a whole bullet pass through the wrist, disappears, and certain things begin to make a bit more sense (to me, at least)

The pre-op X-ray of JBC's wrist shows there is no "channel" through the bone, the bullet impacted the side of the radius and, in order for it to exit through the crease in the wrist, would have to pass directly through one of the densest bones in the body. There is no hint of this happening in the X-ray.
If the bullet fragmented on contact with the wrist, I could see how a smaller part of it might get through to exit through the crease in the wrist. The remainder of the bullet would, most probably, end up on the limo floor.

Multiple fragments are discovered throughout the wound. I can easily see how this might happen in the case of fragmentation but I have great difficulty understanding how this could be the case if CE399 were the bullet involved.
The problem with CE399 is that the only place lead fragments could come from is the base of the bullet. They can't come from anywhere else on the bullet. It was quickly realised that, in order to be able to explain how CE399 could leave metal fragments in the wound, it must have entered the wound base first. This was not based on evidence relating to the wound itself - the size, shape or disposition of the wound - it was simply an invention of necessity. In turn this led to the idea of a "tumbling bullet", which is something I have great difficulty envisaging.
Was the bullet tumbling through JBC's chest? I don't know.
The impression I get is that, "officially", the bullet entered and exited JBC's torso nose-first and when it exited his chest it began rotating at an unbelievably high speed, so that it hit the wrist base-first. The problem with this is that the bullet would still have been rotating at an incredibly high speed as it traveled through the wrist.
The X-ray of JBC's wrist doesn't show a hole where a bullet might have traveled directly through without rotating, let alone a rotating bullet, which would surely have blown his hand off!

Which brings us to the exit wound, a one centimeter long slit!!
This rotating bullet, smashing through the radius, scattering metallic fragments as it goes, leaves a one centimeter long slit as it exits.
I simply don't buy that.

The bullet that struck that wrist was travelling at near muzzle velocity. That's why the damage is so severe and the hole is so obvious.

When the bullet struck that bone it was travelling well below muzzle velocity. The bone was moved out of the way. And while the hole may not be apparent in that X-Ray, it is there.

"...the hole may not be apparent in that X-Ray, it is there."

Hmmm...
This is a bit like you're contention that, although there are multiple fragments that don't show up on JBC's pre-op X-ray, they are still there.
You can't see it , but it's there! What sort of argument is that?
It just leads to a 'pantomime' argument - "Oh yes it is", "Oh no it isn't".

The reason that fragments were deposited in the wrist is because the bullet struck it base end forward. Lead that was extruding from the flattened bullet broke off.

Do you imagine the bullet was rotating as it passed through the wrist, or that it passed through base-first all the way?

Explain the conflicting information contained in the following two images.

Assuming it's Bell's writing on both items - on one she describes a fragment (singular), on the other she describes fragments (plural).
Why?
I literally don't have a clue.

You can deny what is seen in my "heavily pixelated picture" all you want, but you cannot honestly deny that CE-842 is made up of four fragments. Those fragments were removed from Connally's wrist by Dr. Gregory, as confirmed by Audrey Bell.

You can deny what is seen in my "heavily pixelated picture" all you want

Thanks, I will. 

but you cannot honestly deny that CE-842 is made up of four fragments.

Where have I denied that the picture in the National Archives depicts four fragments?
Gregory testifies to removing two fragments.
The X-rays prove he removed two fragments.
Frazier only recorded a single fragment from JBC's arm. Even though the envelope he received them in stated "fragments" plural.
The original FBI report states that a single fragment was removed.
The hospital memo states one fragment was handed over to Nolan (who thought the fragment came from JBC's thigh!)

Do you think you can unravel all this with a dodgy, heavily pixelated pic?

[Tim Nickerson]

This is discussed at length in martin's thread, "A Time to Receive and Give (CE399)

We're not in Martin's thread. I'm asking you here. Why do you believe that CE 399 was not the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connally?

CE399 was not the bullet that impacted JBC's wrist. So the imperative, to have a whole bullet pass through the wrist, disappears, and certain things begin to make a bit more sense (to me, at least)

How have you determined that CE-399 was not the bullet that struck Connally's wrist?

The pre-op X-ray of JBC's wrist shows there is no "channel" through the bone, the bullet impacted the side of the radius and, in order for it to exit through the crease in the wrist, would have to pass directly through one of the densest bones in the body. There is no hint of this happening in the X-ray.

Dr Gregory testified that the bullet passed through the bone. That the hole is not apparent to you in the X-Ray does not mean that it isn't there.

Multiple fragments are discovered throughout the wound. I can easily see how this might happen in the case of fragmentation but I have great difficulty understanding how this could be the case if CE399 were the bullet involved.
The problem with CE399 is that the only place lead fragments could come from is the base of the bullet. They can't come from anywhere else on the bullet. It was quickly realised that, in order to be able to explain how CE399 could leave metal fragments in the wound, it must have entered the wound base first. This was not based on evidence relating to the wound itself - the size, shape or disposition of the wound - it was simply an invention of necessity. In turn this led to the idea of a "tumbling bullet", which is something I have great difficulty envisaging.
Was the bullet tumbling through JBC's chest? I don't know.
The impression I get is that, "officially", the bullet entered and exited JBC's torso nose-first and when it exited his chest it began rotating at an unbelievably high speed, so that it hit the wrist base-first. The problem with this is that the bullet would still have been rotating at an incredibly high speed as it traveled through the wrist.
The X-ray of JBC's wrist doesn't show a hole where a bullet might have traveled directly through without rotating, let alone a rotating bullet, which would surely have blown his hand off!

The determination that the bullet struck the wrist base end forward was based on wound ballistics and the sizes and dispositions of the entry and exit wounds. Officially, the bullet did not enter Connally's torso nose first. It was already yawed before entering. When it exited the chest, it was already moving with base end forward.

Which brings us to the exit wound, a one centimeter long slit!!
This rotating bullet, smashing through the radius, scattering metallic fragments as it goes, leaves a one centimeter long slit as it exits.
I simply don't buy that.

The exit wound was a half centimeter in length. Your not buying it doesn't make it any less so.

"...the hole may not be apparent in that X-Ray, it is there."

Hmmm...
This is a bit like you're contention that, although there are multiple fragments that don't show up on JBC's pre-op X-ray, they are still there.
You can't see it , but it's there! What sort of argument is that?
It just leads to a 'pantomime' argument - "Oh yes it is", "Oh no it isn't".

Gregory said it was there. Was he lying?

Do you imagine the bullet was rotating as it passed through the wrist, or that it passed through base-first all the way?

I don't know.

Assuming it's Bell's writing on both items - on one she describes a fragment (singular), on the other she describes fragments (plural).
Why?
I literally don't have a clue.

You can't explain it , yet there it is. Same goes for Frazier referring to it as a fragment.

Where have I denied that the picture in the National Archives depicts four fragments?
Gregory testifies to removing two fragments.
The X-rays prove he removed two fragments.
Frazier only recorded a single fragment from JBC's arm. Even though the envelope he received them in stated "fragments" plural.
The original FBI report states that a single fragment was removed.
The hospital memo states one fragment was handed over to Nolan (who thought the fragment came from JBC's thigh!)

Gregory said two or three. He really couldn't recall.
The X-Rays prove nothing.
The foreign body envelope says fragments. Audrey Bell said four fragments. CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.

Do you think you can unravel all this with a dodgy, heavily pixelated pic?

You're the one who introduced the "dodgy, heavily pixelated pic" here, not me.

[Charles Collins]

Haag demonstrates how the Carcano 6.5mm bullet behaves. It begins to yaw immediately after leaving blocks of ballistic soap and gelatin which mimic human muscle tissue. Watch the video beginning about 25:10.

And there is another demonstration by someone in Australia (if I remember correctly) on video that shows figures set up in the configuration that JFK and JBC were in. It is well worth watching. I will try to find it. But if anyone else knows where it can be found, please post it. Thanks.

[Charles Collins]

Haag demonstrates how the Carcano 6.5mm bullet behaves. It begins to yaw immediately after leaving blocks of ballistic soap and gelatin which mimic human muscle tissue. Watch the video beginning about 25:10.

And there is another demonstration by someone in Australia (if I remember correctly) on video that shows figures set up in the configuration that JFK and JBC were in. It is well worth watching. I will try to find it. But if anyone else knows where it can be found, please post it. Thanks.

Here’s the second part of the video that I mentioned. The first part contains the specs, etc., you should be able to find the first part if you are interested.