A time to receive and give (CE399)

[Jerry Organ]

That is because I am basing their positions at the time, according to the evidence, first shot occurred (z190-200),

That's quite debate-able.

not how they were positioned 20 minutes earlier.  The zfilm shows how they were positioned at that time:

Are you purposely trying obscure their seated positions with those mucky Z-frames?



One can get a good idea of the positions of Kennedy and Connally by how they appear in the Croft Photo. There are no major shifts in their seating positions between Z161 and Z200.

JBC is turned to the right.  Since the seat back prevents him just turning if he is leaning against it, he had to lean forward a bit and then turn his shoulders pivoting on his right shoulder.

Well, this fellow got part of his shoulder joint over and to the rear of the jumpseat. The seatback of the seat doesn't go all the way up.

This appears to have moved his midline slightly to the right of centre of the seat. Only if JBC was sitting on the left edge of his seat over the drive shaft so that his midline was 12-13 inches left of JFK's midline.

Mason's Voodoo Geometry.

[Andrew Mason]

I can only post actual photographic evidence of the relative sitting positions of JFK and Connally.
The ludicrous sitting positions you have in your model are based on nothing but your futile attempt to bolster your truly bizarre theory. They have no basis in reality and have zero evidentiery support.

I am puzzled that you think a photo taken 20 minutes before the first shot is a more accurate portrayal of their relative positions than a photo taken just before:


or at the time of the first shot:


I know that you think TE Moore, Betzner, Phil Willis and Linda Willis as to the time of the first shot were wrong; and that the witnesses who said the head shot was the last shot were wrong.  That's fine. But their evidence is consistent and it is real and capable of being correct.  I disagree that this evidence carries no weight.  Based on that evidence a reasonable conclusion can be reached that the first shot was just before z202 and the above photos show the relative positions of the two men at that time. At that time there is not 13 inches lateral distance between the midlines of the two men. 

Only if JBC was sitting...12-13 inches left of JFK's midline.

A bit like the photo posted above 

That photo was taken from a film made by Dave Powers in the QM. He is in the middle of the car so naturally JBC and JFK would both be seen even if JBC was directly in front of JFK.

[Jerry Organ]

I am puzzled that you think a photo taken 20 minutes before the first shot is a more accurate portrayal of their relative positions than a photo taken just before:

This is Mason cherry-picking the photographs.



He's a defense attorney.

or at the time of the first shot:


I know that you think TE Moore, Betzner, Phil Willis and Linda Willis as to the time of the first shot were wrong; and that the witnesses who said the head shot was the last shot were wrong.  That's fine. But their evidence is consistent and it is real and capable of being correct.  I disagree that this evidence carries no weight.  Based on that evidence a reasonable conclusion can be reached that the first shot was just before z202 and the above photos show the relative positions of the two men at that time. At that time there is not 13 inches lateral distance between the midlines of the two men.

The Zapruder film shows Kennedy seated tight against the car interior, and Connally seated inboard relative to Kennedy.


In the SBT model, the pivot of Connally's neck is about eight inches inboard relative to the same feature on Kennedy. This is the same amount as in the Croft Photo model posted earlier ( Link ).

That photo was taken from a film made by Dave Powers in the QM. He is in the middle of the car so naturally JBC and JFK would both be seen even if JBC was directly in front of JFK.

The particular still of the Powers film that was posted shows the limousine relatively centered in Powers' viewfinder. Because Connally is greatly inboard relative to Kennedy, the Governor is also inboard relative to Kellerman. If Connally were directly in-front of Kennedy, he (Connally) should also appear to be relatively directly behind Kellerman.

The amount that Mrs. Kennedy appears inboard relative to Greer (the driver) is comparable to the amount of inboard that Connally has relative to the President. Of all the people in the limousine, the two nearest the mid-line of the car are Jackie and the Governor.

[Andrew Mason]

I can only post actual photographic evidence of the relative sitting positions of JFK and Connally.
The ludicrous sitting positions you have in your model are based on nothing but your futile attempt to bolster your truly bizarre theory. They have no basis in reality and have zero evidentiary support.

The relative seating positions can be readily determined from a 3D model.  The trajectory from the SN is what is critical. This is my rather primitive but accurate 3D model that I did in Sketchup using a scale map of Dealey Plaza:




The trajectory is very similar to that which the WC considered when they made their 3D model of Dealey Plaza and placed the limousine at the point where they considered the evidence showed that the first shot occurred (a position that I suggest was correct):

[Martin Weidmann]

The relative seating positions can be readily determined from a 3D model.  The trajectory from the SN is what is critical. This is my rather primitive but accurate 3D model that I did in Sketchup using a scale map of Dealey Plaza:




The trajectory is very similar to that which the WC considered when they made their 3D model of Dealey Plaza and placed the limousine at the point where they considered the evidence showed that the first shot occurred (a position that I suggest was correct):

Since you ignored my last questions, I fully expect you to do the same with this one, but, despite the fact that IMO it has very little to do with CE399, I'm going to ask it anyway.

The trajectory from the SN is what is critical.

What makes you so sure that the shots came from the so-called SN at the TSBD?

[Andrew Mason]

Since you ignored my last questions, I fully expect you to do the same with this one, but, despite the fact that IMO it has very little to do with CE399, I'm going to ask it anyway.

The trajectory from the SN is what is critical.

What makes you so sure that the shots came from the so-called SN at the TSBD?

Not sure what questions I missed?  If I missed responding just send me a reminder and I will respond.

First of all, the trajectory has everything to do with CE399. The path through JFK's neck into JBC's thigh, butt-first, explains the condition of CE399 (as well as the first shot hitting JFK and the second hitting only JBC, the 1.......2...3 shot pattern, Tague's evidence, Greer, Hickey, Powers, Gayle Newman etc).

As far as the evidence that the shots came from the SN there are several witnesses whose evidence puts the shots originating there: Robert Jackson, Mrs. Cabell, and Amos Euins saw the rifle in the window during or immediately after the shots. Arnold Rowland saw a man with a rifle 15 minutes before the shots. The three men below on the 5th floor heard 3 loud shots from above them and Harold Norman heard the bolt action operated 3 times and heard 3 shells hit the floor.

Furthermore, the rifle found on the 6th floor had fired CE399. There were boxes in the SN placed in an unusual way consistent with use to support a rifle. Most witnesses said the shots all sounded similar and almost all witnesses said the shots sounded like they all came from the same location (although there was disagreement as to the location of the source).

If that's not enough, let me know and I will refer to more.

[Martin Weidmann]

Not sure what questions I missed?  If I missed responding just send me a reminder and I will respond.

First of all, the trajectory has everything to do with CE399. The path through JFK's neck into JBC's thigh, butt-first, explains the condition of CE399 (as well as the first shot hitting JFK and the second hitting only JBC, the 1.......2...3 shot pattern, Tague's evidence, Greer, Hickey, Powers, Gayle Newman etc).

As far as the evidence that the shots came from the SN there are several witnesses whose evidence puts the shots originating there: Robert Jackson, Mrs. Cabell, and Amos Euins saw the rifle in the window during or immediately after the shots. Arnold Rowland saw a man with a rifle 15 minutes before the shots. The three men below on the 5th floor heard 3 loud shots from above them and Harold Norman heard the bolt action operated 3 times and heard 3 shells hit the floor.

Furthermore, the rifle found on the 6th floor had fired CE399. There were boxes in the SN placed in an unusual way consistent with use to support a rifle. Most witnesses said the shots all sounded similar and almost all witnesses said the shots sounded like they all came from the same location (although there was disagreement as to the location of the source).

If that's not enough, let me know and I will refer to more.

There are so many assumptions here that I don't even know where to start. Oh well, let's give it a try.

First of all, the trajectory has everything to do with CE399. The path through JFK's neck into JBC's thigh, butt-first, explains the condition of CE399

And you somehow know it was CE399 that passed through JFK and JBC? How exactly did you reach that conclusion?

Robert Jackson, Mrs. Cabell, and Amos Euins saw the rifle in the window during or immediately after the shots. Arnold Rowland saw a man with a rifle 15 minutes before the shots.

They saw which rifle? Since when does seeing a rifle equate to seeing a rifle being fired?

The three men below on the 5th floor heard 3 loud shots from above them and Harold Norman heard the bolt action operated 3 times and heard 3 shells hit the floor.

How does what they think they heard prove that a rifle was actually being fired on the 6th floor?

the rifle found on the 6th floor had fired CE399.

When exactly was CE399 fired by that rifle and how do you know?

So, now it's my turn.

What evidence is there that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was ever at Parkland hospital in Dallas?

The chain of evidence for that bullet starts at the FBI lab in Washington!

None of the four men who were involved in the discovery and transportation (to DC) were able to positively identify CE399 as the bullet they had seen on 11/22/63
In mid 1964 the WC asked the FBI to authenticate several pieces of evidence, including CE399.

Although the FBI later claimed in CE2011 that Tomlinson and Wright thought that it was the same bullet, this so-called "identification" conflicted completely with the content of an Airtel message from SAC Shanklin in Dallas, which clearly states that both men could not identify the bullet. In addition they claimed in CE2011 that SA Odum had shown the bullet to Tomlinson and Wright, but Odum is on record saying he never did such a thing and that he never had CE399 in his possession. Add to this that Wright later stated that the bullet he had seen was pointed which CE399 clearly isn't you you've got all sorts of evidentiary problems you just can't ignore.

[Andrew Mason]

There are so many assumptions here that I don't even know where to start. Oh well, let's give it a try.

First of all, the trajectory has everything to do with CE399. The path through JFK's neck into JBC's thigh, butt-first, explains the condition of CE399

And you somehow know it was CE399 that passed through JFK and JBC? How exactly did you reach that conclusion?

Robert Jackson, Mrs. Cabell, and Amos Euins saw the rifle in the window during or immediately after the shots. Arnold Rowland saw a man with a rifle 15 minutes before the shots.

They saw which rifle? Since when does seeing a rifle equate to seeing a rifle being fired?

The three men below on the 5th floor heard 3 loud shots from above them and Harold Norman heard the bolt action operated 3 times and heard 3 shells hit the floor.

How does what they think they heard prove that a rifle was actually being fired on the 6th floor?

the rifle found on the 6th floor had fired CE399.

When exactly was CE399 fired by that rifle and how do you know?

So, now it's my turn.

What evidence is there that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was ever at Parkland hospital in Dallas?

The chain of evidence for that bullet starts at the FBI lab in Washington!

None of the four men who were involved in the discovery and transportation (to DC) were able to positively identify CE399 as the bullet they had seen on 11/22/63
In mid 1964 the WC asked the FBI to authenticate several pieces of evidence, including CE399.

Although the FBI later claimed in CE2011 that Tomlinson and Wright thought that it was the same bullet, this so-called "identification" conflicted completely with the content of an Airtel message from SAC Shanklin in Dallas, which clearly states that both men could not identify the bullet. In addition they claimed in CE2011 that SA Odum had shown the bullet to Tomlinson and Wright, but Odum is on record saying he never did such a thing and that he never had CE399 in his possession. Add to this that Wright later stated that the bullet he had seen was pointed which CE399 clearly isn't you you've got all sorts of evidentiary problems you just can't ignore.

Martin, we appear to live in different universes. By your standard circumstantial evidence can never lead to a conclusion.