The Position of the Bolt on the MC

[Charles Collins]

I posted this image earlier in the thread, it shows that the safety is not quite aligned with the slot it is supposed to fit in to meaning the bolt handle must be up in the "fully up" position.



The images of Day picking the rifle up in no way demonstrates the bolt handle is not fully up, if anything it's quite the reverse.
The bolt handle is clearly sticking up, there can be no doubt about that. That the safety is not aligned with its slot means the bolt handle is fully up and that the bolt is not fully forward.
If, after the last shot, the bolt is pushed forward in the usual quick and fluid fashion, the bolt would be fully forward so the bolt handle would have no problem latching downwards with the bolt handle fitting snugly against the body of the rifle.
The best explanation for the position of the bolt in the Alyea footage is that the bolt is jammed. What would cause this?
Walt's explanation, that the ejector has not properly engaged with the bullet and is jammed up against it, seems most plausible. This would account for the very small misalignment.
But what would cause the ejector not to engage with the bullet? Normal use?
Or manually inserting a single bullet into the chamber?

I posted this image earlier in the thread, it shows that the safety is not quite aligned with the slot it is supposed to fit in to meaning the bolt handle must be up in the "fully up" position.


That image appears to me to be made after Fritz ejected the cartridge. So, it appears to me to be irrelevant. Also, if it were shown to be relevant, if the camera isn’t at a perfect 90-degree angle and aligned perfectly with the safety, then the angle involved will affect how the alignment with the wooden slot appears. This is because the wooden slot is closer to the camera than the metal safety.


The best explanation for the position of the bolt in the Alyea footage is that the bolt is jammed.

No it is not. There could be several other better explanations, including that it wasn’t pushed down by the gunman, that it was pushed upwards when lowered in between the boxes, that Day pushed it up while examining the knob for prints before he lifted the rifle off the floor, etc.. Also, if Walt’s theory were true, gravity (with the muzzle is pointing toward the floor) and friction would have held the cartridge in the barrel when Fritz pulled the bolt back. Therefore it would not have fallen to the floor.

[Charles Collins]

Here is an image from blabbermouth's video that is taken from a spot that is relatively close to being straight inline with the barrel. I have drawn some lines depicting the angle (~30-degrees) of the bolt handle above horizontal (note the rifle is about 2-degrees out of horizontal which I have accounted for). Also two lines that indicate the distance (?) between the knob of the handle and the scope. Compare this to the Alyea film sequence of Day lifting the rifle off the floor. I included the last frame in which the bolt handle is visible. I think this may be the best angle for comparison.

[Walt Cakebread]

I posted this image earlier in the thread, it shows that the safety is not quite aligned with the slot it is supposed to fit in to meaning the bolt handle must be up in the "fully up" position.



The images of Day picking the rifle up in no way demonstrates the bolt handle is not fully up, if anything it's quite the reverse.
The bolt handle is clearly sticking up, there can be no doubt about that. That the safety is not aligned with its slot means the bolt handle is fully up and that the bolt is not fully forward.
If, after the last shot, the bolt is pushed forward in the usual quick and fluid fashion, the bolt would be fully forward so the bolt handle would have no problem latching downwards with the bolt handle fitting snugly against the body of the rifle.
The best explanation for the position of the bolt in the Alyea footage is that the bolt is jammed. What would cause this?
Walt's explanation, that the ejector has not properly engaged with the bullet and is jammed up against it, seems most plausible. This would account for the very small misalignment.
But what would cause the ejector not to engage with the bullet? Normal use?
Or manually inserting a single bullet into the chamber?

The bolt handle is clearly sticking up, there can be no doubt about that. That the safety is not aligned with its slot means the bolt handle is fully up and that the bolt is not fully forward.

Right on !....   You're totally correct, Mr O' meara .....  And I might add this image was taken just after Lt. Day picked the rifle up OF THE FLOOR ( not jammed between boxes) and BEFORE Fritz touched the rifle....

[Charles Collins]

The bolt handle is clearly sticking up, there can be no doubt about that. That the safety is not aligned with its slot means the bolt handle is fully up and that the bolt is not fully forward.

Right on !....   Your totally correct, Mr O' meara .....  And I might add this image was taken just after Lt. Day picked the rifle up OF THE FLOOR ( not jammed between boxes) and BEFORE Fritz touched the rifle....

And I might add this image was taken just after Lt. Day picked the rifle up OF THE FLOOR ( not jammed between boxes) and BEFORE Fritz touched the rifle....


Totally wrong. The film segment is continuous from the time Day lifts it off the floor until Fritz ejects the cartridge. And it agrees with what both Day and Fritz testified.

[Jim Hawthorn]

Exactly as I see it in the gif sequence of the rifle being lifted up by Day.

[Charles Collins]

Exactly as I see it in the gif sequence of the rifle being lifted up by Day.

With the camera angle relative to the rifle in the Alyea film being very different from the angles in the blabber mouth video image, I think that it would be virtually impossible to say for certain that the angle of the handle and the distance between the knob and the scope are “exactly” the same. But you could possibly be correct. Thanks for the input.

[Walt Cakebread]

Thanks James, I do like the DVD. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Yes, the angles involved make this very challenging. The handle is clearly not fully latched (in the down position) as it appeared to me earlier in one of the images. But is it fully up as far as it can go? After looking at it again with “fresh eyes”, it appears to me to be close to fully up. And, if it is part-way down, I doubt that we would be able to discern such a small difference. Even with an actual identical rifle simulating the angles involved.

 if it is part-way down,

I can't get the bolt on my carcano to stay in a "part way down" position....Once the rectangular base of the bolt is forward of the slot in the bridge the bolt will easily rotate about six degrees down toward the fully closed and latched position ....but when it reaches that 6 degree limit is it becomes much more difficult to close and latch.   And if there is a round in the firing chamber and that round is not seated behind the extractor ....then it is impossible to close the bolt past the six degrees.   But if the round is seated in front of the extractor on the face of the bolt then the bolt will close and latch, ....but it takes some effort to close and latch the bolt to put the rifle in the ready to fire position.   

P.S.    I seriously doubt that any shooter would stop pushing the bolt forward and down, once he has extracted and ejected the spent shell from the previous round.   It would be unnatural....