JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Dan O'meara on July 20, 2022, 01:21:39 PM

Title: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 20, 2022, 01:21:39 PM
This one's for Walt really, but anyone with a decent knowledge of rifles might be able to help me out (as I have literally zero practical knowledge of firearms).

In the picture below the bolt (more specifically, the part of the bolt that is gripped in order to reload) is picked out with a red arrow.

What does the position of this bolt mean (if that makes any sense)?
What would it mean if the MC was picked off the floor with the bolt in this position?

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRBrJ3xY/Screenshot-240.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Freeman on July 20, 2022, 04:37:47 PM
It appears that the bolt is 'thrown up' but not pulled back or thrown forward.
[I'm a lever action guy myself]
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 20, 2022, 06:19:07 PM
This one's for Walt really, but anyone with a decent knowledge of rifles might be able to help me out (as I have literally zero practical knowledge of firearms).

In the picture below the bolt (more specifically, the part of the bolt that is gripped in order to reload) is picked out with a red arrow.

What does the position of this bolt mean (if that makes any sense)?
What would it mean if the MC was picked off the floor with the bolt in this position?

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRBrJ3xY/Screenshot-240.png) (https://postimages.org/)

In the picture below the bolt (more specifically, the part of the bolt that is gripped in order to reload) is picked out with a red arrow.

What does the position of this bolt mean (if that makes any sense)?
What would it mean if the MC was picked off the floor with the bolt in this position?

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRBrJ3xY/Screenshot-240.png) (https://postimages.org/)

What does the position of this bolt mean?

Thanks for posting the photo ( frame from Tom Alyea's film) ....

Though there are few who will comprehend the information provided by the position of that bolt handle, I hope that I can shed a little light on the matter.

Referring to the picture..... The bolt handle clearly shows that the rifle definitely is NOT "ready to fire" as many LNer's think.  They like to believe that the carcano was Lee Oswald's and he shot JFK with it and then discarded it with a live round in the chamber and ready to fire.   If that were true the rifle could have been fired and possibly injured or killed an innocent investigator. This is just another way of making their villain, Lee Harvey Osssssswald BOOOOOO HISSSS appear to be a irresponsible ner-do-well.

What does the position of this bolt mean?

Answer:    In a "nut shell" the position of the bolt handle in the photo clearly says that the Warren Commission were liars.
 
I can only speculate about the reason the bolt isn't closed and latched.....BUT Id wager the farm that the live round was in the chamber and that prevented the bolt from being closed and latched.   (We have photos and testimony that the live round DROPPED OUT onto the floor at Captain Fritz's feet.)   This means that the live round was NOT served up into the face of the bolt by the action of the cartridge elevator, but the live cartridge was in fact simply dropped into the chamber.....

The carcano cannot be loaded by simply dropping a cartridge into the chamber and then closing the bolt ( many bolt action rifles CAN be loaded in this manner but NOT THE CARCANO. )  The live round in the chamber blocks the bolt because the extractor is blocked from camming up and over the cartridge lip. 

I doubt that many readers will understand the above....But I'm willing to wager a gold coin that nobody can close and latch the bolt  on the carcano with a cartridge in the chamber.    Anybody who tries will find that the bolt handle stops just as it's seen in the Tom Alyea film.

I hope this helps ......and it becomes clear that the live round that fell out on the floor was not fed into the chamber by the normal action of ejecting a spent shell and loading a live one.

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 20, 2022, 07:08:48 PM
This one's for Walt really, but anyone with a decent knowledge of rifles might be able to help me out (as I have literally zero practical knowledge of firearms).

In the picture below the bolt (more specifically, the part of the bolt that is gripped in order to reload) is picked out with a red arrow.

What does the position of this bolt mean (if that makes any sense)?
What would it mean if the MC was picked off the floor with the bolt in this position?

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRBrJ3xY/Screenshot-240.png) (https://postimages.org/)

This one's for Walt really, but anyone with a decent knowledge of rifles might be able to help me

Hi Dan, Please don't rely on "anyone with a decent knowledge of rifles" in an effort to understand what the position of that bolt handle means.   A person needs to be well acquainted with the Mannlicher Carcano to understand how critical the position of the bolt handle is in the photo. ( critical to understand that the entire tale invented by the authorities is BS)   I've debated several people who have a good knowledge of bolt action rifles in general, and they argue that the carcano can be loaded as a single shot rifle by simply dropping a live round into the chamber and then closing the bolt and firing the rifle.  The Carcano is not designed to be loaded as a single shot rifle and a single live cartridge cannot be loaded into the chamber by simply dropping the cartridge into the chamber.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 20, 2022, 11:50:54 PM
It appears that the bolt is 'thrown up' but not pulled back or thrown forward.
[I'm a lever action guy myself]

It clearly shows that the bolt handle is in the exact position it would be if someone dropped a cartridge into the barrel ( firing chamber) and then attempted to latch the bolt into the ready to fire position.   
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 21, 2022, 12:27:05 AM
It clearly shows that the bolt handle is in the exact position it would be if someone dropped a cartridge into the barrel ( firing chamber) and then attempted to latch the bolt into the ready to fire position.
Not exactly a high-level, meticulous conspiracy thing to do.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 21, 2022, 12:46:15 AM
In the picture below the bolt (more specifically, the part of the bolt that is gripped in order to reload) is picked out with a red arrow.

What does the position of this bolt mean (if that makes any sense)?
What would it mean if the MC was picked off the floor with the bolt in this position?

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRBrJ3xY/Screenshot-240.png) (https://postimages.org/)

What does the position of this bolt mean?

Thanks for posting the photo ( frame from Tom Alyea's film) ....

Though there are few who will comprehend the information provided by the position of that bolt handle, I hope that I can shed a little light on the matter.

Referring to the picture..... The bolt handle clearly shows that the rifle definitely is NOT "ready to fire" as many LNer's think.  They like to believe that the carcano was Lee Oswald's and he shot JFK with it and then discarded it with a live round in the chamber and ready to fire.   If that were true the rifle could have been fired and possibly injured or killed an innocent investigator. This is just another way of making their villain, Lee Harvey Osssssswald BOOOOOO HISSSS appear to be a irresponsible ner-do-well.

What does the position of this bolt mean?

Answer:    In a "nut shell" the position of the bolt handle in the photo clearly says that the Warren Commission were liars.
 
I can only speculate about the reason the bolt isn't closed and latched.....BUT Id wager the farm that the live round was in the chamber and that prevented the bolt from being closed and latched.   (We have photos and testimony that the live round DROPPED OUT onto the floor at Captain Fritz's feet.)   This means that the live round was NOT served up into the face of the but by the action of the cartridge elevator, but the live cartridge was in fact simply dropped into the chamber.....

The carcano cannot be loaded by simply dropping a cartridge into the chamber and then closing the bolt ( many bolt action rifles CAN be loaded in this manner but NOT THE CARCANO. )  The live round in the chamber blocks the bolt because the extractor is blocked from camming up and over the cartridge lip. 

I doubt that many readers will understand the above....But I'm willing to wager a gold coin that nobody can close and latch the bolt  on the carcano with a cartridge in the chamber.    Anybody who tries will find that the bolt handle stops just as it's seen in the Tom Alyea film.

I hope this helps ......and it becomes clear that the live round that fell out on the floor was not fed into the chamber by the normal action of ejecting a spent shell and loading a live one.

As I state in the OP, this one was for you Walt, unfortunately I'm going to need you to really hold my hand through this one.
I've studied this section of the Alyea film in close detail and am convinced the bolt was in the same position I highlighted when it was picked off the ground (I will try to demonstrate this later - for now let's just ASSUME the bolt is in this position when it is picked up).

Questions: Is the clip still in place if the bolt is in this position?
                If the rifle was fired three times where would we expect to see the bolt?
                How can a live round be dropped in the chamber if the clip is in place?

If I'm asking silly questions, just be patient. I want to understand what's going on here as I believe it may be important.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 21, 2022, 12:33:13 AM
As I state in the OP, this one was for you Walt, unfortunately I'm going to need you to really hold my hand through this one.
I've studied this section of the Alyea film in close detail and am convinced the bolt was in the same position I highlighted when it was picked off the ground (I will try to demonstrate this later - for now let's just ASSUME the bolt is in this position when it is picked up).

Questions: Is the clip still in place if the bolt is in this position?
                If the rifle was fired three times where would we expect to see the bolt?
                How can a live round be dropped in the chamber if the clip is in place?

If I'm asking silly questions, just be patient. I want to understand what's going on here as I believe it may be important.

Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh? Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry Walk BS: Thumb1


As I state in the OP, this one was for you Walt, unfortunately I'm going to need you to really hold my hand through this one.
I've studied this section of the Alyea film in close detail and am convinced the bolt was in the same position I highlighted when it was picked off the ground (I will try to demonstrate this later - for now let's just ASSUME the bolt is in this position when it is picked up).


You're convinced that the bolt handle ( knob) is in the same position in the picture as it was when the carcano was picked up from the floor. .....And,  You are absolutely correct.

Questions: Is the clip still in place if the bolt is in this position?
 The short answer is....YES.    The clip has no bearing on the position of the bolt.   The clip merely holds the cartridges ( stacked  ) so the elevator can feed the top cartridge in the clip up and into the annular space on the face of the bolt.

               If the rifle was fired three times where would we expect to see the bolt?

The number of times the rifle is fired is irrelevant ....However,, If that rifle had been fired three times as the liars claimed then that should have indicated that there were four cartridges in the clip to begin the firing process.  If three had been fired  then the fourth one would have been the live round. The live round would automatically have been inserted into the face of the bolt when the spent third round was ejected and the shooter by reflex action would have closed and LATCHED  the bolt handle and the rifle would have been ready to fire that live round. ( The empty clip would normally drop out of the bottom of the magazine when the last cartridge is extracted from it by the forward motion of the bolt)    However....As you've pointed out that bolt handle is NOT down in the latched and ready to fire position.....The bolt handle is in exactly the position it would be in if an unknowing yokel attempted to put the live cartridge in the chamber by dropping it into the barrel. 

                How can a live round be dropped in the chamber if the clip is in place?

Simple as dropping an ice cube in your favorite drink.....  You pull the bolt back to the open position, and with the muzzle down toward the floor you simply drop the live round into the barrel...and let Mr gravity go to work.....

Dan ...Please don't worry about asking questions if I haven't made myself clear.....  This is a very important piece of evidence and I want  you and all readers to understand that the rifle was NOT fired that day and whoever hid it was not at all familiar with the carcano.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Mitch Todd on July 21, 2022, 12:40:26 AM
This one's for Walt really, but anyone with a decent knowledge of rifles might be able to help me out (as I have literally zero practical knowledge of firearms).

In the picture below the bolt (more specifically, the part of the bolt that is gripped in order to reload) is picked out with a red arrow.

What does the position of this bolt mean (if that makes any sense)?
What would it mean if the MC was picked off the floor with the bolt in this position?

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRBrJ3xY/Screenshot-240.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge. This could have happened because someone fired a shot and pushed the bolt forwards to reload for the next one, but decided that one more shot wasn't needed and didn't finish closing the bolt. Or it could be that Day (or some other DPD member) rotated the handle and partially extracted the bolt in order to make the rifle safe to handle before anyone picked it up. Which would be proper procedure. I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 21, 2022, 12:51:06 AM
I found this animation quite a few years ago. I thought it might be helpful.

Here is an animated gif I created from the original MP4 file:


(https://i.vgy.me/gqLcyq.gif)


And here is a link to the webpage where I found it in case there is any trouble with the gif file and to give the original creator credit for this one:


https://imgur.com/gallery/30ws11v/comment/225371056?nc=1 (https://imgur.com/gallery/30ws11v/comment/225371056?nc=1)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 21, 2022, 01:07:17 AM
The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge. This could have happened because someone fired a shot and pushed the bolt forwards to reload for the next one, but decided that one more shot wasn't needed and didn't finish closing the bolt. Or it could be that Day (or some other DPD member) rotated the handle and partially extracted the bolt in order to make the rifle safe to handle before anyone picked it up. Which would be proper procedure. I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

"The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge."

How do you know the bolt handle has been retracted "a centimeter or two" ??    Why couldn't it be in that slot because it was stopped there during the forward motion of the bolt at that point by a cartridge in the firing chamber.....    FYI ...I've placed a cartridge in the firing  chamber of my carcano and that position of the bolt handle in the slot, that you've noted and pointed out, ( thank you)  is precisely where the bolt is seen in the picture.   ( Clearly this indicates that someone attempted to place the live round in the chamber by simply dropping it into the chamber.)

 I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

Well Mr Todd, since you're running your mouth....why don't you list "a few other scenarios"  that would explain the bolt handle being in the position that it is seen in the picture?

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 21, 2022, 01:44:10 AM
The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge. This could have happened because someone fired a shot and pushed the bolt forwards to reload for the next one, but decided that one more shot wasn't needed and didn't finish closing the bolt. Or it could be that Day (or some other DPD member) rotated the handle and partially extracted the bolt in order to make the rifle safe to handle before anyone picked it up. Which would be proper procedure. I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

Just to deal with a couple of points here Mitch.
When the rifle is discovered it appears from multiple testimonies that there are orders not to touch the rifle until Day has taken pictures of it in situ. Day is the first person to actually handle the rifle (so we can discard the notion someone other than Day moved the bolt handle before it was removed from it's hiding place).
Day has this to say about removing the rifle:

Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

So Fritz is the first person to touch the bolt handle after it is removed from it's hiding place and this is what the Alyea footage appears to show.
This is the bit I'm trying to understand. Am I correct in assuming the following:
To insert the clip into the rifle the bolt handle is pulled backwards and the clip is inserted from the top.
The bolt grip is then pushed forward to load the top bullet into the chamber[?]
After firing the first bullet the bolt handle is pulled backwards, the next bullet in the clip is forced upwards, the bolt handle is pushed forward forcing this next bullet into the chamber.
So the situation we see in the Alyea footage is that the third bullet has been supposedly fired, the bolt handle has been pulled back, the fourth bullet in the clip has been forced upwards but has not been pushed into the chamber.

In this scenario how does Fritz eject this live round?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Mitch Todd on July 21, 2022, 02:43:10 AM
"The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge."

How do you know the bolt handle has been retracted "a centimeter or two" ??    Why couldn't it be in that slot because it was stopped there during the forward motion of the bolt at that point by a cartridge in the firing chamber.....    FYI ...I've placed a cartridge in the firing  chamber of my carcano and that position of the bolt handle in the slot, that you've noted and pointed out, ( thank you)  is precisely where the bolt is seen in the picture.   ( Clearly this indicates that someone attempted to place the live round in the chamber by simply dropping it into the chamber.)

 I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

Well Mr Todd, since you're running your mouth....why don't you list "a few other scenarios"  that would explain the bolt handle being in the position that it is seen in the picture?
I say the bolt's been pulled back a cm or two because the cocking piece nut appears to extend to the end of the receiver's tail is, if not a bit further.  Just turning the bolt wouldn't bring the CP nut that far to the rear.

I've already brought up two scenarios that would easily explain the position of the bolt, and see no reason to rack my brain for more. "I'm sure there are a few other scenarios" is really just leaving space open for anyone else to chime in with their own ideas. You have certainly thrown in your own two pennies.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 21, 2022, 02:54:07 AM
I found this animation quite a few years ago. I thought it might be helpful.

Here is an animated gif I created from the original MP4 file:


(https://i.vgy.me/gqLcyq.gif)


And here is a link to the webpage where I found it in case there is any trouble with the gif file and to give the original creator credit for this one:


https://imgur.com/gallery/30ws11v/comment/225371056?nc=1 (https://imgur.com/gallery/30ws11v/comment/225371056?nc=1)

Thank you Charles....It is an excellent cutaway of a carcano being fired ....however it is a bit fast for me....Eventhough I don't need the video to know how a carcano operates ..... Some one who knows how to stop the action could really benefit from the video. If a person could stop the bolt closing just before the handle is pushed down to latch the bolt could see that the cartridge is nearly fully inserted into the chamber.....and if that cartridge was not seated in the face of the bolt the cartridge would prevent the bolt from closing all the way and latching into the ready to fire position.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Mitch Todd on July 21, 2022, 02:54:56 AM
Just to deal with a couple of points here Mitch.
When the rifle is discovered it appears from multiple testimonies that there are orders not to touch the rifle until Day has taken pictures of it in situ. Day is the first person to actually handle the rifle (so we can discard the notion someone other than Day moved the bolt handle before it was removed from it's hiding place).
Day has this to say about removing the rifle:

Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

So Fritz is the first person to touch the bolt handle after it is removed from it's hiding place and this is what the Alyea footage appears to show.
This is the bit I'm trying to understand. Am I correct in assuming the following:
To insert the clip into the rifle the bolt handle is pulled backwards and the clip is inserted from the top.
The bolt grip is then pushed forward to load the top bullet into the chamber[?]
After firing the first bullet the bolt handle is pulled backwards, the next bullet in the clip is forced upwards, the bolt handle is pushed forward forcing this next bullet into the chamber.
So the situation we see in the Alyea footage is that the third bullet has been supposedly fired, the bolt handle has been pulled back, the fourth bullet in the clip has been forced upwards but has not been pushed into the chamber.

In this scenario how does Fritz eject this live round?
When I watch the Alyea film's sequence of the rifle's recovery, I see events in the following order:

1.) Day reaches down and picks up the rifle by the sling and lifts it up off the floor.
2.) Day turns and presents the rifle, butt up, to Fritz, who takes the rifle from Day.
3.) Then it cuts to Day holding the rifle while inspecting it. This is the scene from which your still image is taken.

The continuity between Day picking up the rifle and Fritz taking it precludes the events in 3.) from occurring between the time that Day picks up the rifle and the moment that Fritz takes hold of the weapon. So the Fritz could have opened the bolt and ejected the round between 2.) and 3.).

It all starts about 45 seconds into this version of the Alyea film:

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 21, 2022, 03:28:39 AM
Just to deal with a couple of points here Mitch.
When the rifle is discovered it appears from multiple testimonies that there are orders not to touch the rifle until Day has taken pictures of it in situ. Day is the first person to actually handle the rifle (so we can discard the notion someone other than Day moved the bolt handle before it was removed from it's hiding place).
Day has this to say about removing the rifle:

Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor. (see the video that Charles posted and notice how the shells are flung away from the rifle. )

So Fritz is the first person to touch the bolt handle after it is removed from it's hiding place and this is what the Alyea footage appears to show.
This is the bit I'm trying to understand. Am I correct in assuming the following:
To insert the clip into the rifle the bolt handle is pulled backwards and the clip is inserted from the top.
The bolt grip is then pushed forward to load the top bullet into the chamber[?]
After firing the first bullet the bolt handle is pulled backwards, the next bullet in the clip is forced upwards, the bolt handle is pushed forward forcing this next bullet into the chamber.
So the situation we see in the Alyea footage is that the third bullet has been supposedly fired, the bolt handle has been pulled back, the fourth bullet in the clip has been forced upwards but has not been pushed into the chamber.

In this scenario how does Fritz eject this live round?

Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

Day did not pick up the carcano by the WOODEN STOCK.      And He said a live round "fell on the floor".... If that live round had been seated in the face of the bolt it would have been EXTRACTED and flung away from the rifle....It would not simply have "fell on the floor"
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Freeman on July 21, 2022, 04:49:16 AM
Quote
Mr. BALL. What happened after that?
Mr. FRITZ. A few minutes later some officer called me and said they had found the rifle over near the back stairway and I told them same thing, not to move it, not to touch it, not to move any of the boxes until we could get pictures, and as soon as Lieutenant Day could get over there he made pictures of that.
Mr. BALL. After the pictures had been taken of the rifle what happened then?
Mr. FRITZ. After the pictures had been made then I ejected a live shell, a live cartridge from the rifle.
Mr. BALL. And who did you give that to?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that I kept that at that time myself. Later I gave it to the crime lab who, in turn, turned it over to the FBI.
Mr. BALL. Did you put any marking of yours on the empty cartridge?
Mr. FRITZ. On that loaded cartridge?
Mr. BALL. On that loaded cartridge.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I am not sure, I don't think so.
Mr. BALL. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called it most everything.
It was handed right to him. Both supervisors eyeballed the crap out of the thing.
They called it what else?...a Daisy Red Rider...a slingshot? 
Fritz made fairly sure that his were the only prints that would be on the bullet huh?
Prime evidence and he couldn't even remember if he marked it?
Quote
Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any---did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am sure I did not.
Mr. BALL. Or did you think it was such a thing?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not....
By testimony time he had his story down good enough for government work :-\
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 21, 2022, 10:26:24 AM
When I watch the Alyea film's sequence of the rifle's recovery, I see events in the following order:

1.) Day reaches down and picks up the rifle by the sling and lifts it up off the floor.
2.) Day turns and presents the rifle, butt up, to Fritz, who takes the rifle from Day.
3.) Then it cuts to Day holding the rifle while inspecting it. This is the scene from which your still image is taken.

The continuity between Day picking up the rifle and Fritz taking it precludes the events in 3.) from occurring between the time that Day picks up the rifle and the moment that Fritz takes hold of the weapon. So the Fritz could have opened the bolt and ejected the round between 2.) and 3.).

It all starts about 45 seconds into this version of the Alyea film:


A while back I found every piece of Alyea footage I could about the discovery of the rifle and cobbled this together:


Day turns to Fritz who grabs the strap. Fritz then produces a handkerchief and appears to grab the bolt handle (or around that area) and Day immediately pulls the rifle away from him. After this Day and Fritz examine the rifle together.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 21, 2022, 10:47:27 AM
I found this animation quite a few years ago. I thought it might be helpful.

Here is an animated gif I created from the original MP4 file:


(https://i.vgy.me/gqLcyq.gif)


And here is a link to the webpage where I found it in case there is any trouble with the gif file and to give the original creator credit for this one:


https://imgur.com/gallery/30ws11v/comment/225371056?nc=1 (https://imgur.com/gallery/30ws11v/comment/225371056?nc=1)

Thanks Charles, that really is helpful.
In the above graphic the bolt handle is "in front" of the trigger when the bullet is loaded and fired and when the shell is ejected the bolt handle is pulled back to a position where it is "behind" the trigger.
In the grab from the Alyea footage below the trigger is picked out by the red arrow, the bolt handle by the yellow handle. It can be seen the bolt handle is "in front" of the trigger in this situation, corresponding to this moment in Charles' graphic:

(https://i.postimg.cc/8CZb00QZ/Screenshot-246.png) (https://postimg.cc/3yDpy9wG)

It would appear that when the rifle was discovered, three bullets had been fired and the fourth, live round had been pushed into the chamber.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Richard Smith on July 21, 2022, 12:51:42 PM
Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

Day did not pick up the carcano by the WOODEN STOCK.      And He said a live round "fell on the floor".... If that live round had been seated in the face of the bolt it would have been EXTRACTED and flung away from the rifle....It would not simply have "fell on the floor"

The "wooden stock."  Now where have I seen that term used to describe Oswald's rifle?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 21, 2022, 02:13:08 PM
Thank you Charles....It is an excellent cutaway of a carcano being fired ....however it is a bit fast for me....Eventhough I don't need the video to know how a carcano operates ..... Some one who knows how to stop the action could really benefit from the video. If a person could stop the bolt closing just before the handle is pushed down to latch the bolt could see that the cartridge is nearly fully inserted into the chamber.....and if that cartridge was not seated in the face of the bolt the cartridge would prevent the bolt from closing all the way and latching into the ready to fire position.


Here are six still frames that show the last bullet being loaded and the bolt being latched:


(https://i.vgy.me/WeiyWq.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/Lyo58R.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/OAQaJC.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/sGQ48M.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/teGLuq.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/BnCRNS.jpg)



And here is a top view showing six still frames of the extractor in action:


(https://i.vgy.me/avm9Uf.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/CySLcT.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/GIlMvm.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/mZjHen.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/69geDu.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/4yeeyh.jpg)



The extractor appears to work similarly to both of the bolt action guns that I used to own. Have you tried manually loading a bullet into the receiver with the bolt open and letting the bolt push it into the firing chamber? I believe that Robert Frazier testified that this could be done to allow the rifle to hold a total of seven bullets.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 21, 2022, 04:35:20 PM

Here are six still frames that show the last bullet being loaded and the bolt being latched:


(https://i.vgy.me/WeiyWq.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/Lyo58R.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/OAQaJC.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/sGQ48M.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/teGLuq.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/BnCRNS.jpg)



And here is a top view showing six still frames of the extractor in action:


(https://i.vgy.me/avm9Uf.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/CySLcT.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/GIlMvm.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/mZjHen.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/69geDu.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/4yeeyh.jpg)



The extractor appears to work similarly to both of the bolt action guns that I used to own. Have you tried manually loading a bullet into the receiver with the bolt open and letting the bolt push it into the firing chamber? I believe that Robert Frazier testified that this could be done to allow the rifle to hold a total of seven bullets.


Thank you for Charles.....    I never expected a LNer to post such graphic information, that verifies that the carcano cannot be loaded by simply dropping a cartridge into the chamber.   

Referring to the 4th illustration ( from the top) shows the bolt handle in a position that is very close to the position of the bolt on the carcano in the alyea film. However it is not precisely correct..... because the bolt handle is shown AFTER it has cleared the slot in the bridge and the bolt is starting to go down to the latched and ready to fire position.   The bolt handle is about 4mm ( .157" )  further forward than the bolt handle on the  carcano in detective Day's hand in the Alyea film.

Naturally this 4mm is the distance from the front of the bolt to the rear of the cartridge in the chamber.  IOW if a cartridge is placed in the chamber by simply dropping it into the chamber the front of the bolt (including the extractor) will hit the rear of the cartridge and the cartridge in the chamber will prevent the bolt from traveling any further forward.

Illustration # 8 is a good representation .....#8 shows the bolt handle in precisely the correct position ( comparing it to the Alyea film)   But # 8 shows the bolt being retracted, which is irrelevant in this discussion.

As you can see (and measure) if the cartridge was not being extracted by the bolt and it was all the way, and fully in the chamber it would be impossible to  latch the bolt.

This is not easy to discuss and it can be very confusing..... but your posting of the illustrations is a great benefit in trying to explain why the bolt is in the position it is in in the Alyea film.  Thank you for posting the illustrations.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 21, 2022, 05:08:04 PM

Thank you for Charles.....    I never expected a LNer to post such graphic information, that verifies that the carcano cannot be loaded by simply dropping a cartridge into the chamber.   

Referring to the 4th illustration ( from the top) shows the bolt handle in a position that is very close to the position of the bolt on the carcano in the alyea film. However it is not precisely correct..... because the bolt handle is shown AFTER it has cleared the slot in the bridge and the bolt is starting to go down to the latched and ready to fire position.   The bolt handle is about 4mm ( .157" )  further forward than the bolt handle on the  carcano in detective Day's hand in the Alyea film.

Naturally this 4mm is the distance from the front of the bolt to the rear of the cartridge in the chamber.  IOW if a cartridge is placed in the chamber by simply dropping it into the chamber the front of the bolt (including the extractor) will hit the rear of the cartridge and the cartridge in the chamber will prevent the bolt from traveling any further forward.

Illustration # 8 is a good representation .....#8 shows the bolt handle in precisely the correct position ( comparing it to the Alyea film)   But # 8 shows the bolt being retracted, which is irrelevant in this discussion.

As you can see (and measure) if the cartridge was not being extracted by the bolt and it was all the way, and fully in the chamber it would be impossible to  latch the bolt.

This is not easy to discuss and it can be very confusing..... but your posting of the illustrations is a great benefit in trying to explain why the bolt is in the position it is in in the Alyea film.  Thank you for posting the illustrations.


Walt, I think I understand what you are saying. However, what I am asking is: Have you tried placing the bullet into the receiver (in much the same position that a bullet just having been elevated out of the clip would be) with the bolt fully open and letting the bolt itself push the bullet into the firing chamber? What your description describes is different in that you describe pushing the bullet into the firing chamber before trying to close the bolt.

The reason I ask this is because both of my bolt action guns had similar extractor/ejectors to the Carcano. And one of them was a single shot with no other option than to manually load each single bullet. The other one had a two-shot clip and a third shot could be loaded manually.

I don’t doubt your problem with closing the bolt if a bullet is inserted by hand and pushed by hand all the way into the firing chamber. But that isn’t how any bolt action guns that I have used are typically loaded. Even single shot bolt action guns.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 21, 2022, 05:27:25 PM
Oswald the Dolt shot-his-bolt* four times that day

1) Boom>Click-click
2) Boom>Click-click
3) Boom>Click-click

The 4th came @ the movies when he tried to shoot more cops

*shot-his-bolt: Do all within one's power; exhaust one's resources or capabilities
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 21, 2022, 05:43:39 PM

Walt, I think I understand what you are saying. However, what I am asking is: Have you tried placing the bullet into the receiver (in much the same position that a bullet just having been elevated out of the clip would be) with the bolt fully open and letting the bolt itself push the bullet into the firing chamber? What your description describes is different in that you describe pushing the bullet into the firing chamber before trying to close the bolt.

The reason I ask this is because both of my bolt action guns had similar extractor/ejectors to the Carcano. And one of them was a single shot with no other option than to manually load each single bullet. The other one had a two-shot clip and a third shot could be loaded manually.

I don’t doubt your problem with closing the bolt if a bullet is inserted by hand and pushed by hand all the way into the firing chamber. But that isn’t how any bolt action guns that I have used is typically loaded. Even single shot bolt action guns.

Before I begin..... Let me thank you for your great help and your honest discussion....

Have you tried placing the bullet into the receiver (in much the same position that a bullet just having been elevated out of the clip would be) with the bolt fully open and letting the bolt itself push the bullet into the firing chamber?

A cartridge cannot be placed in the receiver ( there is nothing to support the cartridge )   I've tried balancing the cartridge on the elevator and then slide the bolt forward and I can get the cartridge in the chamber .....The bolt handle will not go down to the latched and ready to fire position ( it stops just like the picture from the Alyea Film.

I believe that a person could manipulate the cartridge and place it on the face of the bolt but it would be very awkward because the clip of cartridges would have to be in the magazine first and that would limit the space needed to manipulate the cartridge....

The Bottom line.... It wouldn't be practical..... If the shooter simply wanted to have a seven shot rifle.    It would be much easier to simply fire the six cartridges in the clip and then reload another clip....then he would have twelve shot rifle....

Now back to the Alyea photo....I'm 100% certain that some yokel who thought the carcano could be loaded with a single cartridge simply dropped that live round into the chamber and tried to close and latch the bolt.....but he couldn't get the bolt closed so he left it just as it is seen in the Alyea film.....and hid the rifle by laying it on the floor beneath the pallet of books, and then he stacked boxes of books around and over it.....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 21, 2022, 07:42:55 PM
Before I begin..... Let me thank you for your great help and your honest discussion....

Have you tried placing the bullet into the receiver (in much the same position that a bullet just having been elevated out of the clip would be) with the bolt fully open and letting the bolt itself push the bullet into the firing chamber?

A cartridge cannot be placed in the receiver ( there is nothing to support the cartridge )   I've tried balancing the cartridge on the elevator and then slide the bolt forward and I can get the cartridge in the chamber .....The bolt handle will not go down to the latched and ready to fire position ( it stops just like the picture from the Alyea Film.

I believe that a person could manipulate the cartridge and place it on the face of the bolt but it would be very awkward because the clip of cartridges would have to be in the magazine first and that would limit the space needed to manipulate the cartridge....

The Bottom line.... It wouldn't be practical..... If the shooter simply wanted to have a seven shot rifle.    It would be much easier to simply fire the six cartridges in the clip and then reload another clip....then he would have twelve shot rifle....

Now back to the Alyea photo....I'm 100% certain that some yokel who thought the carcano could be loaded with a single cartridge simply dropped that live round into the chamber and tried to close and latch the bolt.....but he couldn't get the bolt closed so he left it just as it is seen in the Alyea film.....and hid the rifle by laying it on the floor beneath the pallet of books, and then he stacked boxes of books around and over it.....


I believe you regarding the issues loading a single bullet. However, more modern bolt action guns that I have experience with do not have that problem. And I couldn't imagine going to war with a rifle that had that issue.

Before you jump to your conclusions, I think we should attempt to determine the position of the bolt handle when it was first picked up. I will begin with my opinion that it appears to be latched based on this still shot of the video posted earlier in this thread.


(https://i.vgy.me/o1azv3.jpg)

I have drawn an arrow pointing towards what I perceive to be the bolt handle knob. Perhaps others who might be interested in this, and who might have better tools and skills than I, can try to enhance the available images for better clarity. If my interpretation is correct, then I would be of the opinion that the subsequent video clips, in which we can easily see the bolt handle, were filmed after the live round was ejected.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 21, 2022, 09:52:24 PM

I believe you regarding the issues loading a single bullet. However, more modern bolt action guns that I have experience with do not have that problem. And I couldn't imagine going to war with a rifle that had that issue.

Before you jump to your conclusions, I think we should attempt to determine the position of the bolt handle when it was first picked up. I will begin with my opinion that it appears to be latched based on this still shot of the video posted earlier in this thread.


(https://i.vgy.me/o1azv3.jpg)

I have drawn an arrow pointing towards what I perceive to be the bolt handle knob. Perhaps others who might be interested in this, and who might have better tools and skills than I, can try to enhance the available images for better clarity. If my interpretation is correct, then I would be of the opinion that the subsequent video clips, in which we can easily see the bolt handle, were filmed after the live round was ejected.

 I believe you regarding the issues loading a single bullet.

I don't want you to believe me....  I would like for you to agree with me after you've studied the illustrations.

If my interpretation is correct, then I would be of the opinion that the subsequent video clips, in which we can easily see the bolt handle, were filmed after the live round was ejected.

The Alyea film show detective Day picking up the rifle BY THE LATHER SLING and handing it off to Captain Fritz, The Day holds the rifle while Fritz slides the bolt back ( He does not need to raise the bolt handle because it is not down and latched )  Many witnesses reported that the live cartridge mee fell out of the rifle and landed on the floor at Fritz feet. IOW...The live round was not EXTRACTED by the extractor, nor was it EJECTED by the ejector ....It merely FELL OUT.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 21, 2022, 10:03:35 PM
Not exactly a high-level, meticulous conspiracy thing to do.


You're right, Jim,    But the person who left that carcano there hidden beneath the pallet of books wasn't thinking about a conspiracy.   He simply wanted a link between himself and the STAGED HOAX that made it appear that he had fired a shot AT AT JFK ...... Just as he had left the rifle in a shrub pile near General Walker's ....   He wanted the cops to find it and trace that rifle back to his PO box. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 21, 2022, 11:21:45 PM
Oswald the Dolt shot-his-bolt* four times that day

1) Boom>Click-click
2) Boom>Click-click
3) Boom>Click-click

The 4th came @ the movies when he tried to shoot more cops

*shot-his-bolt: Do all within one's power; exhaust one's resources or capabilities

Get outta here, Chappie.....  This thread is WAAAAAAAY over yer mental ability.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 22, 2022, 12:20:30 AM
This pic from the Alyea footage shows the moment Day has turned to Fritz who is yet to reach for the bolt handle.
I believe the red arrow picks out the bolt handle in the "unlatched" position that is seen more clearly in other pictures posted:

(https://i.postimg.cc/52gdJJWM/Screenshot-247.png) (https://postimages.org/)

I believe this bolt handle was in the "unlatched" position when it was picked up because it appears to be in this same position before Fritz takes out his handkerchief and reaches for the bolt handle.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: James Hackerott on July 22, 2022, 01:06:07 AM
Here are three views that might help.
(https://i.imgur.com/fvNfV4C.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/2N7Lljw.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/89XE9WC.png)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 22, 2022, 01:14:20 AM
Here are three views that might help.
(https://i.imgur.com/fvNfV4C.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/2N7Lljw.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/89XE9WC.png)

I don't know how you've managed to achieve the clarity in these images but it is really impressive.

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: James Hackerott on July 22, 2022, 01:28:31 AM
The Lost JFK Tapes DVD, screen captures.
 ;)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 22, 2022, 01:31:53 AM
This pic from the Alyea footage shows the moment Day has turned to Fritz who is yet to reach for the bolt handle.
I believe the red arrow picks out the bolt handle in the "unlatched" position that is seen more clearly in other pictures posted:

(https://i.postimg.cc/52gdJJWM/Screenshot-247.png) (https://postimages.org/)

I believe this bolt handle was in the "unlatched" position when it was picked up because it appears to be in this same position before Fritz takes out his handkerchief and reaches for the bolt handle.

I agree Dan,  Nobody touched that bolt handle from the time Day picked the carcano up FROM THE FLOOR  until Fritz slid the bolt back and the live round dropped out,......  The bolt is in the unlatched position in Alyea's film because the yokel who hid the rifle didn't know that the live cartridge had to be fed up to the bolt by the cartridge elevator pushing it up into the annular space on the face of the bolt. ( NOTE:....  If that live round had been the last cartridge in the clip the elevator would have been in contact with it, and when the three previous cartridges were fire that elevator would have scratched the live round, but there was no sign that te live round had been in contact with the elevator. )

The yokel simply dropped the live round into the chamber and then couldn't get the bolt closed and latched, so he left it just as it is seen in the Alyea film. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 22, 2022, 01:41:04 AM
I agree Dan,  Nobody touched that bolt handle from the time Day picked the carcano up FROM THE FLOOR  until Fritz slid the bolt back and the live round dropped out,......  The bolt is in the unlatched position in Alyea's film because the yokel who hid the rifle didn't know that the live cartridge had to be fed up to the bolt by the cartridge elevator pushing it up into the annular space on the face of the bolt. ( NOTE:....  If that live round had been the last cartridge in the clip the elevator would have been in contact with it, and when the three previous cartridges were fire that elevator would have scratched the live round, but there was no sign that te live round had been in contact with the elevator. )

The yokel simply dropped the live round into the chamber and then couldn't get the bolt closed and latched, so he left it just as it is seen in the Alyea film.

For argument's sake, let' just say there was four rounds in the clip, three had been fired, why couldn't the fourth, live round be in the firing chamber? Because the elevator never scratched the live round? Is that known for certain?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 22, 2022, 02:00:04 AM
For argument's sake, let' just say there was four rounds in the clip, three had been fired, why couldn't the fourth, live round be in the firing chamber? Because the elevator never scratched the live round? Is that known for certain?

the elevator never scratched the live round? Is that known for certain?

The FBI reported that one of the spent shells had been scratched by the elevator.   Of course that means that that spent shell was the last round in the clip. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 22, 2022, 11:26:09 AM
Here are three views that might help.
(https://i.imgur.com/fvNfV4C.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/2N7Lljw.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/89XE9WC.png)


Thanks James! Those definitely do help. The first one (where Day is picking the rifle up off the floor) is clear enough to see that I was wrong. The bolt handle does appear to me to be angled up in the unlatched position. I need to see if I can find a copy of that DVD. Thanks again!
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 22, 2022, 03:25:31 PM
the elevator never scratched the live round? Is that known for certain?

The FBI reported that one of the spent shells had been scratched by the elevator.   Of course that means that that spent shell was the last round in the clip.

Is it always ONLY the last round that has the possibility of being scratched?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 22, 2022, 03:37:06 PM
Is it always ONLY the last round that has the possibility of being scratched?

Is it always ONLY the last round that has the possibility of being scratched?

Yes, the last round is naturally the bottom cartridge, and it is the only cartridge the is in contact with the elevator.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 22, 2022, 03:57:05 PM
I believe you regarding the issues loading a single bullet.

I don't want you to believe me....  I would like for you to agree with me after you've studied the illustrations.

If my interpretation is correct, then I would be of the opinion that the subsequent video clips, in which we can easily see the bolt handle, were filmed after the live round was ejected.

The Alyea film show detective Day picking up the rifle BY THE LATHER SLING and handing it off to Captain Fritz, The Day holds the rifle while Fritz slides the bolt back ( He does not need to raise the bolt handle because it is not down and latched )  Many witnesses reported that the live cartridge mee fell out of the rifle and landed on the floor at Fritz feet. IOW...The live round was not EXTRACTED by the extractor, nor was it EJECTED by the ejector ....It merely FELL OUT.



Mr. EIBENBERQ. Did you make a test to determine the pattern of the cartridge- case ejection of Commission Exhibit 139?
Mr. Faaznnt. Yes, sir; I made two studies in connection with the ejection pattern-one to determine distance and one to determine the angle at which the cartridge cases leave the ejection port.
Mr. EISENB~EQ. And did you summarize your examination by diagrams? Mr. Faazw. Yes ; I did.
Mr. EISENBEEO. Could you show us those diagrams?
Mr. Fatinm. In this diagram-
Mr. EIBENBERQ. Excuse me just a second, Mr. Frazier.
Were these diagrams prepared by you?
Mr. FBAZIER. Yes; they were-not the actual physical diagrams, but the
figures on the diagrams were furnished by me to the draftsman.
Mr. EISENBEBO. Mr. Chairman, may I introduce these diagrams as Com-
mission Exhibits Nos. 546 and 54’7?
Mr. MCCLOY. They may be admitted.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 546 and
547, and were received in evidence.)
Mr. EIBENBEBQ. Could you give us the results of your tests by using these
diagrams, Mr. Frazier? k
Mr. Faazrza. Yes, sir.
In this test, Commission Exhibit 546, the diagram illustrates the positions
on the floor at which cartridge cases landed after being extracted and ejected from the rifle, Commission’s Exhibit 139. In the tom nortion of Exhibit 546. the barrel was held depressed at a 45degree angle, and in the lower half of the exhibit it shows the pattern with the barrel held in a horizontal position. Each spot marked with a figure on the diagram shows where one cartridge case landed in both instances, and each one is marked with the distance and the angle to which the cartridge case was ejected.
With the barrel held in the depressed condition, all of the cartridge cases landed within an 35inch circle located 80 degrees to the right front of the rifle. That may be confusing. It was 89 degrees to the right from the line of sight of the rifle and at a distance of 86 inches from the ejection port.
Now, this circle will not necessarily encompass all cartridge cases ejected from the rifle, since the ejection is determined, not only by the angle of the weapon, but more by the force with which the bolt is operated. A very light force on the bolt can cause the cartridge case to tip gently out and fall at your feet. However, under normal conditions of reloading in a fairly rapid manner, we found the cartridge cases to land in this circle.
The same situation is true of the test made with the muzzle in the horizontal condition.
All of the cartridge cases landed within a 47-inch circle, which was located at right angles to the ejection port, or 90 degrees from the line of sight, and at a distance 80 inches from the ejection port.



I submit that Fritz (since he was not reloading under “normal conditions in a fairly rapid manner” and the cartridge fell out at his feet) used a very light force on the bolt. See the bolded text in Frazier’s testimony above.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 22, 2022, 04:15:47 PM
For argument's sake, let' just say there was four rounds in the clip, three had been fired, why couldn't the fourth, live round be in the firing chamber? Because the elevator never scratched the live round? Is that known for certain?

let' just say there was four rounds in the clip, three had been fired, why couldn't the fourth, live round be in the firing chamber? Because the elevator never scratched the live round? Is that known for certain?

 the elevator never scratched the live round...  That's one reason.....If that live round had been the last round in the clip it would have been scratched every time the rifle recoiled when the first three rounds were fired....

why couldn't the fourth, live round be in the firing chamber?

The way you are describing the action that live round could have been (and should have been) in the chamber WITH THE BOLT CLOSED AND LATCHED  behind it .   Thus the rifle would have been ready to fire , by simply pulling the trigger.

The action of firing the three previous rounds would have been the same for round #4  ( the live round)  IOW... After firing of the third round the shooter would have opened the bolt and extracted and ejected the spent shell from that third cartridge, then by reflex action he would automatically close the bolt ....Thus feeding the fourth round into the annular space on the face of the bolt and loading the live cartridge into the chamber and automatically ( reflex action) CLOSING AND LATCHING the bolt .
IOW...... If that live round had been in the clip as the bottom cartridge, then  it would have been scratched by the elevator when the three previous rounds were fired...( There are no scratches caused by the elevator on the live round )   

And the bolt would have been closed and latched .... BUT.....as Tom Alyea's photo shows  the bolt is NOT closed and latched.  The bolt handle is standing in the exact position it would be if someone had simply dropped the live round into the chamber and attempted to close the bolt.   The carcano cannot be loaded( made ready to fire)  with a single cartridge by dropping the single cartridge into the chamber because the bolt cannot be closed and latched. The cartridge MUST  be loaded into the chamber by being attached to bolt by being served up into the bolt by the elevator.
 
(https://i.vgy.me/Lyo58R.jpg)
Notice that the elevator is just pushing the live round up and into the annular space on the face of the bolt.

One other point....  IF the rifle had been loaded with four rounds in a clip,..... when the third shot was fired and ejected the elevator would have automatically fed the fourth round up into the face of the bolt  and THE CLIP WOULD HAVE DROPPED OUT OF THE BOTTOM OF THE MAGAZINE.     So ....The clip should have been lying on the floor in the so called "sniper's Nest" ....

The fact that the clip was still in the rifle when Lt. Day was dusting the rifle for prints ( see Alyea's film of Day dusting the rifle ) is simply another point that reveals the clip, like the live round,, was placed in the rifle just before the yokel hid the rifle.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 22, 2022, 04:50:34 PM
The fact that the clip was still in the rifle when Lt. Day was dusting the rifle for prints ( see Alyea's film of Day dusting the rifle ) is simply another point that reveals the clip, like the live round,, was placed in the rifle just before the yokel hid the rifle.

What would be the intention of putting the clip back in and dropping a round into the chamber?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 22, 2022, 05:10:05 PM
What would be the intention of putting the clip back in and dropping a round into the chamber?

Good question, Jim....  Of course I can only speculate, since I'm not the person who performed the action.....

I would guess that the person wanted to lend realism ( believable and ready acceptance) that the rifle had just been fired.

I'll bet the farm that the carcano was NOT fired that day....  The three spent shells had been fired previously at some other location, and one of those spent shells has the scratch marks that were made by the elevator. Which indicates that that spent shell was the last round in the clip at the time that shell was fired.

 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 22, 2022, 06:21:50 PM
Good question, Jim....  Of course I can only speculate, since I'm not the person who performed the action.....

I would guess that the person wanted to lend realism ( believable and ready acceptance) that the rifle had just been fired.

I'll bet the farm that the carcano was NOT fired that day....  The three spent shells had been fired previously at some other location, and one of those spent shells has the scratch marks that were made by the elevator. Which indicates that that spent shell was the last round in the clip at the time that shell was fired.

OK. Time for the LNers to give their opinion about this dropped in round.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 22, 2022, 08:07:53 PM
OK. Time for the LNers to give their opinion about this dropped in round.

In a nut shell .... The bolt standing in the position that is seen in the Alyea film, plus the fact that the live round has no scratch marks from being the last round in a clip is proof that the rifle was not fired that day.

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Richard Smith on July 23, 2022, 04:11:02 PM
In a nut shell .... The bolt standing in the position that is seen in the Alyea film, plus the fact that the live round has no scratch marks from being the last round in a clip is proof that the rifle was not fired that day.

Whew!  Alert the NY Times.  Our word for today is "conclusory":  consisting of or relating to a conclusion or assertion for which no supporting evidence is offered.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 23, 2022, 04:30:12 PM
Whew!  Alert the NY Times.  Our word for today is "conclusory":  consisting of or relating to a conclusion or assertion for which no supporting evidence is offered.

It’s apparently his middle name….   ;)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 23, 2022, 06:12:32 PM
Whew!  Alert the NY Times.  Our word for today is "conclusory":  consisting of or relating to a conclusion or assertion for which no supporting evidence is offered.

What is your explanation for this unmarked, dropped in live round? The lone nut did nutty things?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 23, 2022, 06:19:24 PM
It’s apparently his middle name….   ;)

I doubt that was intend to be a .....a compliment, But I'll accept it as such.    A person who can't CONCLUDE something that is obvious (like 2 + 2 ) is either mentally deficient, or a coward who is afraid to face the facts.

I your case Mr Collins I believe it's the former..... You simply don't understand how the carcano operates....but that's not totally your fault.    There have been ignorant people who have posted erroneous information about the carcano and some innocently ignorant folks have accepted that inaccurate information and thus they don't know what they are talking about.

I'm referring to the ability to load a single round into the chamber of a carcano by merely dropping a round into the chamber  and closing and latching the bolt....   I don't give a hoot if the guy who believes that is a "firearms expert" who is truly  knowledgeable  about hundreds of rifles.... and he bases his belief on several other bolt action rifles ...He doesn't truly know how the carcano operates.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 23, 2022, 06:57:34 PM
I doubt that was intend to be a .....a compliment, But I'll accept it as such.    A person who can't CONCLUDE something that is obvious (like 2 + 2 ) is either mentally deficient, or a coward who is afraid to face the facts.

I your case Mr Collins I believe it's the former..... You simply don't understand how the carcano operates....but that's not totally your fault.    There have been ignorant people who have posted erroneous information about the carcano and some innocently ignorant folks have accepted that inaccurate information and thus they don't know what they are talking about.

I'm referring to the ability to load a single round into the chamber of a carcano by merely dropping a round into the chamber  and closing and latching the bolt....   I don't give a hoot if the guy who believes that is a "firearms expert" who is truly  knowledgeable  about hundreds of rifles.... and he bases his belief on several other bolt action rifles ...He doesn't truly know how the carcano operates.


I have already agreed that, when the rifle was first lifted from the floor by Day, the bolt handle appears to be in the up position versus the locked (down) position. However, I don’t agree that the bolt was not in the fully forward position. And I don’t believe that the cartridge would necessarily have to be scratched by the elevator. Where do you find any supporting evidence for your claim that it would necessarily have to have been scratched by the elevator?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 23, 2022, 08:28:45 PM

I have already agreed that, when the rifle was first lifted from the floor by Day, the bolt handle appears to be in the up position versus the locked (down) position. However, I don’t agree that the bolt was not in the fully forward position. And I don’t believe that the cartridge would necessarily have to be scratched by the elevator. Where do you find any supporting evidence for your claim that it would necessarily have to have been scratched by the elevator?

Where do you find any supporting evidence for your claim that it would necessarily have to have been scratched by the elevator?

Damn!...Now yer askin me to use the old brain and do some hard thinkin.....

But first let me tell you that the scratches on the last round in the clip never originated in my old brain.

I believe it was the FBI man who testified before the WC, about the rifle.    I believe it was he who said that the elevator scratches the last round in the clip .    And I believe him....because it makes sense.  I guess I could  test that for myself, and then I would know for sure if it is a fact.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 23, 2022, 08:53:07 PM
Where do you find any supporting evidence for your claim that it would necessarily have to have been scratched by the elevator?

Damn!...Now yer askin me to use the old brain and do some hard thinkin.....

But first let me tell you that the scratches on the last round in the clip never originated in my old brain.

I believe it was the FBI man who testified before the WC, about the rifle.    I believe it was he who said that the elevator scratches the last round in the clip .    And I believe him....because it makes sense.  I guess I could  test that for myself, and then I would know for sure if it is a fact.

Does anyone here have an old MC or know anyone who has one? If not we could ask this guy:

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 23, 2022, 09:57:52 PM
Does anyone here have an old MC or know anyone who has one? If not we could ask this guy:


I own several M38 6.5 Carcanos... This is a great benefit because I can verify, or refute something that has been said about the carcano.

"this guy" ( the man in the video) is not a carcano expert.....  I had hoped that the man would touch on the subject of attempting to load a carcano as a single shot rifle......  Of course he didn't because it's a silly idea ( who in the world would want to load a single cartridge into a rifle that is designed to hold six rounds???

 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 12:19:22 AM
Where do you find any supporting evidence for your claim that it would necessarily have to have been scratched by the elevator?

Damn!...Now yer askin me to use the old brain and do some hard thinkin.....

But first let me tell you that the scratches on the last round in the clip never originated in my old brain.

I believe it was the FBI man who testified before the WC, about the rifle.    I believe it was he who said that the elevator scratches the last round in the clip .    And I believe him....because it makes sense.  I guess I could  test that for myself, and then I would know for sure if it is a fact.


You are probably thinking about Robert Frazier. I have been reading some of his testimony recently. I didn’t see anything about the elevator scratching the last round. And I haven’t seen anything about the live round missing markings from the elevator. But I could have missed it if it shows up in sections of his testimony that I skimmed through.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 12:21:31 AM
Does anyone here have an old MC or know anyone who has one? If not we could ask this guy:



I’m afraid if you asked that guy, you would have to listen to a half-hour of him yakking about irrelevant things…
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 12:26:48 AM
I own several M38 6.5 Carcanos... This is a great benefit because I can verify, or refute something that has been said about the carcano.

"this guy" ( the man in the video) is not a carcano expert.....  I had hoped that the man would touch on the subject of attempting to load a carcano as a single shot rifle......  Of course he didn't because it's a silly idea ( who in the world would want to load a single cartridge into a rifle that is designed to hold six rounds???



…who in the world would want to load a single cartridge into a rifle that is designed to hold six rounds???


Perhaps someone who lost the clip but had a box of cartridges and needed to shoot before someone shot him. After all, it was designed as a military rifle…
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 12:49:12 AM
Does anyone here have an old MC or know anyone who has one? If not we could ask this guy:




One thing that that guy demonstrated quite clearly, is that if the scope appears to be significantly off target, it is very simple to just use the fixed iron sights. Even with a scope mounted in the same position as the one on rifle found on the sixth floor.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 12:50:02 AM


…who in the world would want to load a single cartridge into a rifle that is designed to hold six rounds???


Perhaps someone who lost the clip but had a box of cartridges and needed to shoot before someone shot him. After all, it was designed as a military rifle…

possibly but not to likely ....The Italian military cartridges came from the  factory packed in clips .... the factory packaged the ammo in a small paper box  (3" X 2 3/4" X 1 1/2 " )  There were four clips of six rounds each ( Total 24 rounds per box )

The soldier in the field did not load any clips....He simply inserted a fresh clip of six cartridges when he had fired one clip of six rounds.....He usually was issued 4 boxes of ammo ( 96 rounds)...... 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 12:54:12 AM

You are probably thinking about Robert Frazier. I have been reading some of his testimony recently. I didn’t see anything about the elevator scratching the last round. And I haven’t seen anything about the live round missing markings from the elevator. But I could have missed it if it shows up in sections of his testimony that I skimmed through.

It possibly was Frazier who testified about the elevator left scratch marks on the bottom cartridge.... But I simply can't remember....

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 01:15:46 AM
possibly but not to likely ....The Italian military cartridges came from the  factory packed in clips .... the factory packaged the ammo in a small paper box  (3" X 2 3/4" X 1 1/2 " )  There were four clips of six rounds each ( Total 24 rounds per box )

The soldier in the field did not load any clips....He simply inserted a fresh clip of six cartridges when he had fired one clip of six rounds.....He usually was issued 4 boxes of ammo ( 96 rounds)......


That’s not surprising to read. However, you are probably familiar with Murphy’s Law. It just seems to me that it would be prudent to design the rifle so that it is feasible to load single cartridges for contingencies. And I do believe that Robert Frazier indicated that it is feasible.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 03:24:33 AM

That’s not surprising to read. However, you are probably familiar with Murphy’s Law. It just seems to me that it would be prudent to design the rifle so that it is feasible to load single cartridges for contingencies. And I do believe that Robert Frazier indicated that it is feasible.

I do believe that Robert Frazier indicated that it is feasible.

Yes you're right, Frazier did testify that the carcano could be loaded as a seven shot rifle.....But I can point out several examples that he was in error regarding the carcano.  So I wouldn't bet the farm that the carcano can be loaded as a seven shot rifle if I were you.

Question for you...  How do you go about loading a single round and then a full six round clip so that the rifle can fire seven rounds??   You know that the cartridges MUST be fed up to the bolt from beneath the bolt ( i'm sure that you know that because you posted the cutaway illustrations that show that it is a fact. )   Ok ....So you fumble around and manage to get the loose single cartridge seated on the face of the bolt and close the bolt...Now you have a single cartridge in the chamber and ready to fire but you must open the bolt to insert the six round clip from the top....But when you open the bolt it extracts and ejects the single round ......OOOPs....That attempt just failed....  So HOW do you load seven rounds ???
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 24, 2022, 03:57:48 AM
I do believe that Robert Frazier indicated that it is feasible.

Yes you're right, Frazier did testify that the carcano could be loaded as a seven shot rifle.....But I can point out several examples that he was in error regarding the carcano.  So I wouldn't bet the farm that the carcano can be loaded as a seven shot rifle if I were you.

Question for you...  How do you go about loading a single round and then a full six round clip so that the rifle can fire seven rounds??   You know that the cartridges MUST be fed up to the bolt from beneath the bolt ( i'm sure that you know that because you posted the cutaway illustrations that show that it is a fact. )   Ok ....So you fumble around and manage to get the loose single cartridge seated on the face of the bolt and close the bolt...Now you have a single cartridge in the chamber and ready to fire but you must open the bolt to insert the six round clip from the top....But when you open the bolt it extracts and ejects the single round ......OOOPs....That attempt just failed....  So HOW do you load seven rounds ???

'bet the farm'
_What a coincidence. I used that term not a week ago.
  I'd never seen it used here before
  My eyebrows remain raised...
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 12:33:31 PM
'bet the farm'
_What a coincidence. I used that term not a week ago.
  I'd never seen it used here before
  My eyebrows remain raised...

"I'd Bet the farm"..... is a very old axiom....   Meaning: ...I'm very sure about something....

I'd bet the farm,  that there will be snow in January....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 12:41:52 PM
I do believe that Robert Frazier indicated that it is feasible.

Yes you're right, Frazier did testify that the carcano could be loaded as a seven shot rifle.....But I can point out several examples that he was in error regarding the carcano.  So I wouldn't bet the farm that the carcano can be loaded as a seven shot rifle if I were you.

Question for you...  How do you go about loading a single round and then a full six round clip so that the rifle can fire seven rounds??   You know that the cartridges MUST be fed up to the bolt from beneath the bolt ( i'm sure that you know that because you posted the cutaway illustrations that show that it is a fact. )   Ok ....So you fumble around and manage to get the loose single cartridge seated on the face of the bolt and close the bolt...Now you have a single cartridge in the chamber and ready to fire but you must open the bolt to insert the six round clip from the top....But when you open the bolt it extracts and ejects the single round ......OOOPs....That attempt just failed....  So HOW do you load seven rounds ???



So HOW do you load seven rounds ???


Here's a screen shot from the video posted earlier in this thread. He has just loaded a full clip (six cartridges) and has not yet closed the bolt. The way that Robert Frazier described (if I remember correctly) to load the seventh cartridge, is to place a single cartridge in the receiver (on top of the other six cartridges) and then close the bolt. That is also similar to the way I remember doing it with my bolt action gun.


(https://i.vgy.me/GuNNRU.jpg)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 12:59:16 PM
'bet the farm'
_What a coincidence. I used that term not a week ago.
  I'd never seen it used here before
  My eyebrows remain raised...


Mr. EISENBEBQ. Based on your experience with the weapon, do you think three
shots could be fired accurately within 5% seconds if no rest was utilized?
Mr. FTUAIER. That would depend on the accuracy which was necessary or
needed or which you desired. I think you could fire the shots in that length
of time, but whether you could place them, say, in a 3- or 4-inch circle without
either resting or possibly using the sling as a support-I doubt that you could
accomplish that.



Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 01:04:18 PM
Here is a close-up screenshot, from the video posted earlier in this thread, of the elevator. It appears to me to have a wavy shape which would tend to minimize the amount of surface area which actually contacts the last cartridge in the clip. Also the surface appears to be smooth, all of which, in my opinion, would help to make the action smoother and shouldn't easily scratch the cartridge.


(https://i.vgy.me/Gz38r1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 01:26:43 PM


So HOW do you load seven rounds ???


Here's a screen shot from the video posted earlier in this thread. He has just loaded a full clip (six cartridges) and has not yet closed the bolt. The way that Robert Frazier described (if I remember correctly) to load the seventh cartridge, is to place a single cartridge in the receiver (on top of the other six cartridges) and then close the bolt. That is also similar to the way I remember doing it with my bolt action gun.


(https://i.vgy.me/GuNNRU.jpg)

The way that Robert Frazier described (if I remember correctly) to load the seventh cartridge, is to place a single cartridge in the receiver (on top of the other six cartridges) and then close the bolt.

You're right, Charles....That is the way Frazier described the loading of the seventh round, and it sounds very easy to do....

BUT .....in attempting to perform  the action it is impossible....

Here's why....  When the fully loaded six round clip is inserted into the magazine it is pushed down against the pressure  of the elevator spring which pushes the cartridges up FROM THE BOTTOM ( It takes a strong thumb to push the clip full of cartridges all the way down to the point where the clip latch catches the clip and holds it in the magazine) so that when the bolt is pushed forward the top cartridge is pushed up and into the annular area on the face of the bolt and also the rim of the cartridge is pushed up behind the EXTRACTOR.   Then the cartridge which is now married to the face of the bolt can be pushed forward and into the chamber.
When the full clip of six cartridges is loaded in the magazine THERE IS NO ROOM TO PUSH A SINGLE CARTRIDGE DOWN SO THAT IT CAN BE PUSHED UP AND INTO THE ANNULAR SPACE AND EXTRACTOR ON THE FACE OF THE BOLT.

Look at the cutaway illustration of the full clip in the rifle and you can see that there is no room to load that single cartridge from the bottom of the bolt..... And the cartridges MUST be pushed UP AND INTO THE ANNULAR SPACE AND BEHIND THAT EXTRACTOR......  IOW The cartridge MUST be married to the bolt to enable the bolt to latch closed......

Bottom Line.... Mr Frazier didn't know what the hell he was talking about.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 01:44:33 PM
Here is a close-up screenshot, from the video posted earlier in this thread, of the elevator. It appears to me to have a wavy shape which would tend to minimize the amount of surface area which actually contacts the last cartridge in the clip. Also the surface appears to be smooth, all of which, in my opinion, would help to make the action smoother and shouldn't easily scratch the cartridge.


(https://i.vgy.me/Gz38r1.jpg)


Charles, On page 2 of this thread you posted a cutaway animated illustration of the loading of a clip into a carcano....

It clearly shows that when the full clip of six rounds is inserted into the magazine there is no room to place a seventh cartridge on top of the stack of six rounds that are in the clip....So that seventh round cannot be served up into the face of the bolt ( It MUST be served up from the bottom )   The bolt will not close all the way into the ready to fire position if the cartridge is not married to the face of the bolt.....and it can't be married to the bolt unless it is fed up from  below the bolt.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 01:51:06 PM
Here is a close-up screenshot, from the video posted earlier in this thread, of the elevator. It appears to me to have a wavy shape which would tend to minimize the amount of surface area which actually contacts the last cartridge in the clip. Also the surface appears to be smooth, all of which, in my opinion, would help to make the action smoother and shouldn't easily scratch the cartridge.


(https://i.vgy.me/Gz38r1.jpg)

When the cartridge was examined, it was examined under a microscope.......Read what Frazier said in his testimony.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 01:55:36 PM

Charles, On page 2 of this thread you posted a cutaway animated illustration of the loading of a clip into a carcano....

It clearly shows that when the full clip of six rounds is inserted into the magazine there is no room to place a seventh cartridge on top of the stack of six rounds that are in the clip....So that seventh round cannot be served up into the face of the bolt ( It MUST be served up from the bottom )   The bolt will not close all the way into the ready to fire position if the cartridge is not married to the face of the bolt.....and it can't be married to the bolt unless it is fed up from  below the bolt.


Here's a frame from the animation that clearly shows the extractor is flush with the face of the bolt (in other words there is no space between the extractor and the face of the bolt) when the bolt is fully open. So, I do not agree with your claim that the cartridge must be fed from below in order to mate up properly with the face of the bolt. Robert Frazier is an expert providing sworn testimony about this specific rifle. Why should we believe your claim and disregard his testimony?

(https://i.vgy.me/cpGyib.jpg)


And it certainly appears to me that there is room above the fully inserted full clip for a seventh cartridge (in both the animation and the blabbermouth guy's video).
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 02:05:23 PM
Here is a close-up screenshot, from the video posted earlier in this thread, of the elevator. It appears to me to have a wavy shape which would tend to minimize the amount of surface area which actually contacts the last cartridge in the clip. Also the surface appears to be smooth, all of which, in my opinion, would help to make the action smoother and shouldn't easily scratch the cartridge.


(https://i.vgy.me/Gz38r1.jpg)

At the 10:53 pont of the video the man pushes a clip of cartridges into the magazine ...

NOTICE how hard he has to push to latch the clip in the magazine....   

This is important because if he tried to push a seventh round down below the bolt ....he would not be able to do it.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 02:16:25 PM
At the 10:53 pont of the video the man pushes a clip of cartridges into the magazine ...

NOTICE how hard he has to push to latch the clip in the magazine....   

This is important because if he tried to push a seventh round down below the bolt ....he would not be able to do it.


I have noticed that it takes considerable force to push the clip down and get it latched. But I do not believe that it is necessary to push a seventh round down below the bolt. See the diagram I posted above that shows the extractor flush with the face of the bolt. Simply have the seventh cartridge directly above the sixth one and close the bolt. I believe that this would work.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 24, 2022, 02:27:43 PM
It clearly shows that when the full clip of six rounds is inserted into the magazine there is no room to place a seventh cartridge on top of the stack of six rounds that are in the clip....

But the only thing that interests us here is whether one could place a live round into the chamber when the clip is empty.

IF the gun was used that day up on the 6th floor, isn't it possible that the 4th and last round in the clip was pushed up into the firing chamber, the bold was locked but the round wasn't fired. Then, when the rifle was dropped between the carboard boxes, the bolt got caught by a box edge and popped open?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 03:48:24 PM
But the only thing that interests us here is whether one could place a live round into the chamber when the clip is empty.

IF the gun was used that day up on the 6th floor, isn't it possible that the 4th and last round in the clip was pushed up into the firing chamber, the bold was locked but the round wasn't fired. Then, when the rifle was dropped between the carboard boxes, the bolt got caught by a box edge and popped open?

Mr. McCloy. Can you use that rifle without the clip?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; you can.
Mr. McCloy. What is the advantage of the clip?
Mr. FRAZIER. It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually load-
ing one shot at a time.
Mr. MCCLOY. The only other way you can flre it is by way of manual load?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; one shot at a time.
Mr. MCCLOY. When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired
with the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. M&LOY. The same as the .30-06?
Mr. Faazma. Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.

               
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 04:36:23 PM
But the only thing that interests us here is whether one could place a live round into the chamber when the clip is empty.

IF the gun was used that day up on the 6th floor, isn't it possible that the 4th and last round in the clip was pushed up into the firing chamber, the bold was locked but the round wasn't fired. Then, when the rifle was dropped between the carboard boxes, the bolt got caught by a box edge and popped open?

IF the gun was used that day up on the 6th floor, isn't it possible that the 4th and last round in the clip was pushed up into the firing chamber, the bold was locked but the round wasn't fired. Then, when the rifle was dropped between the carboard boxes, the bolt got caught by a box edge and popped open?

the bold was locked but the round wasn't fired.

Fair question.... That is what probably would have happened if the shooter had fired three of the four rounds in the clip.  He very likely would automatically ( reflex action) have loaded the fourth round into the chamber..

BUT ....When the bolt is closed and latched it probably wouldn't have been unlatched and retracted about an inch by merely bumping the bolt by dropping it between boxes ......The weight of the rifle would not be sufficient to unlatch the bolt , and the bolt certainly wouldn't have been retracted.

I have an advantage.....because I can actually perform the suggested actions.... and you can rest assured that the fourth round did NOT get loaded into the chamber by being pushed there while being married to the bolt.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 04:58:50 PM
Mr. McCloy. Can you use that rifle without the clip?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; you can.
Mr. McCloy. What is the advantage of the clip?
Mr. FRAZIER. It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually load-
ing one shot at a time.
Mr. MCCLOY. The only other way you can flre it is by way of manual load?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; one shot at a time.
Mr. MCCLOY. When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired
with the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. M&LOY. The same as the .30-06?
Mr. Faazma. Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.

               

No, it will NOT hold a maximum of seven.   Please don't take my word for it ..... LOOK  at the cut away illustration on page 2 of this thread.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 24, 2022, 05:11:07 PM
BUT ....When the bolt is closed and latched it probably wouldn't have been unlatched and retracted about an inch by merely bumping the bolt by dropping it between boxes ......The weight of the rifle would not be sufficient to unlatch the bolt , and the bolt certainly wouldn't have been retracted.

But the bolt wasn't "retracted" - if by that you mean pulled back towards the stock. The bolt was in the forward position but simply with the knob handle lifted upwards:

(https://i.ibb.co/M7J1trX/Bolt-position.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2dpMCxb)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 05:32:30 PM
No, it will NOT hold a maximum of seven.   Please don't take my word for it ..... LOOK  at the cut away illustration on page 2 of this thread.

Here are some consecutive frames from that animation:


(https://i.vgy.me/BWncNH.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/XPWRiE.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/bhkm4b.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/O10MTc.jpg)



These frames show the fully loaded clip being pushed down and locked in place. There are six (count them) cartridges in the clip and they are all below the bottom of the receiver chamber and the level of the bottom of the bolt. This is also shown in blabbermouth's video. Simply place a seventh cartridge in the receiver chamber and slide the bolt forward. The seventh cartridge will be pushed into the firing chamber (in lieu of the top cartridge in the clip). This is also what Frazier testified.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 05:43:38 PM
But the bolt wasn't "retracted" - if by that you mean pulled back towards the stock. The bolt was in the forward position but simply with the knob handle lifted upwards:

(https://i.ibb.co/M7J1trX/Bolt-position.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2dpMCxb)

Yes, that is my opinion also. One possibility that I believe is likely is that when JFK's head exploded it could have caused LHO to stop his reloading action in midstream. And the knob was simply left in the up position.

However, if the cutaway animation is accurate, then another possibility is that your idea of the knob being pushed up by lowering the rifle between the boxes seems more likely. This is because the cutaway animation shows the firing mechanism being cocked as a result of raising the bolt knob up. And if it is already cocked, then the amount of force required to raise the bolt knob would be much less than it would be if it was being cocked. The rifle weighs 8-pounds total. If the force needed to raise the bolt knob (on that already cocked rifle) is less than 8-pounds of force, then I think that your idea possibly exists.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 05:45:06 PM
But the bolt wasn't "retracted" - if by that you mean pulled back towards the stock. The bolt was in the forward position but simply with the knob handle lifted upwards:

(https://i.ibb.co/M7J1trX/Bolt-position.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2dpMCxb)

the bolt wasn't "retracted" - if by that you mean pulled back towards the stock.

Yes  ...in the Alyea photo on page 4 (James Hackerott's post) the bolt knob can be seen in the raised (Unlatched) position.) (Just like your picture)  And the rectangular portion of the bolt handle ( at the base of the bolt handle ) is in the slot
on the bridge of the receiver.  So the bolt wasn't retracted as far as I had thought, which I had thought was about 1 inch, ...but it is retracted about 1/4 inch.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 06:04:28 PM
Here are some consecutive frames from that animation:


(https://i.vgy.me/BWncNH.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/XPWRiE.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/bhkm4b.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/O10MTc.jpg)



These frames show the fully loaded clip being pushed down and locked in place. There are six (count them) cartridges in the clip and they are all below the bottom of the receiver chamber and the level of the bottom of the bolt. This is also shown in blabbermouth's video. Simply place a seventh cartridge in the receiver chamber and slide the bolt forward. The seventh cartridge will be pushed into the firing chamber (in lieu of the top cartridge in the clip). This is also what Frazier testified.

Thank you Charles for being such a good sport and posting the still shots from the cut away....

Here is the one that shows the clip all the way down in the magazine and the clip latch latched...

(https://i.vgy.me/O10MTc.jpg)

Please notice that the top of the top cartridge in the clip, is slightly above the bottom of the retracted bolt....So when the bolt is pushed forward the elevator (which is pushing the stack of cartridges upward ) will feed that top cartridge up and into the annular space ( and the spent shell extractor )   on the face of the bolt.    Then the cartridge will be married to the bolt and the assembly will can be inserted into the firing chamber.    This is the only way that the cartridge can be loaded into the chamber

ie;... The cartridge MUST be pushed up into the face of the bolt from below the bolt.     And when there are six cartridges in the clip there is no room to place a seventh round on top of the six.

(https://i.vgy.me/O10MTc.jpg)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 06:25:36 PM
Yes, that is my opinion also. One possibility that I believe is likely is that when JFK's head exploded it could have caused LHO to stop his reloading action in midstream. And the knob was simply left in the up position.

However, if the cutaway animation is accurate, then another possibility is that your idea of the knob being pushed up by lowering the rifle between the boxes seems more likely. This is because the cutaway animation shows the firing mechanism being cocked as a result of raising the bolt knob up. And if it is already cocked, then the amount of force required to raise the bolt knob would be much less than it would be if it was being cocked. The rifle weighs 8-pounds total. If the force needed to raise the bolt knob (on that already cocked rifle) is less than 8-pounds of force, then I think that your idea possibly exists.

One possibility that I believe is likely is that when JFK's head exploded it could have caused LHO to stop his reloading action in midstream. And the knob was simply left in the up position.

Surely you're not serious, Charles....Do you really believe that an assassin would stop shoving the bolt closed in mid action.

Charles, Let me express my appreciation and thank you, for your cooperating in posting very valuable information about how a carcano operates.

I doubt that you fully understand why it is impossible to load the carcano as a seven shot rifle, and that's ok....   You've been a really good sport in posting videos to attempt to support your point.   I've tried to discuss this with others in the past and I might have been more successful in talking to my dog.   I don't expect you to capitulate and agree with me when you have faith in a venerated FBI "expert" who says that the carcano can be loaded as a seven shot rifle.... But in reality you don't need to agree with anybody....Just look at the illustrations .....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 06:34:42 PM
Thank you Charles for being such a good sport and posting the still shots from the cut away....

Here is the one that shows the clip all the way down in the magazine and the clip latch latched...

(https://i.vgy.me/O10MTc.jpg)

Please notice that the top of the top cartridge in the clip, is slightly above the bottom of the retracted bolt....So when the bolt is pushed forward the elevator (which is pushing the stack of cartridges upward ) will feed that top cartridge up and into the annular space ( and the spent shell extractor )   on the face of the bolt.    Then the cartridge will be married to the bolt and the assembly will can be inserted into the firing chamber.    This is the only way that the cartridge can be loaded into the chamber

ie;... The cartridge MUST be pushed up into the face of the bolt from below the bolt.     And when there are six cartridges in the clip there is no room to place a seventh round on top of the six.

(https://i.vgy.me/O10MTc.jpg)


If there is no seventh cartridge above the top of the sixth cartridge in the clip, then your description is accurate. Here is the next frame that shows how it works.


(https://i.vgy.me/R23UED.jpg)


However, the elevator cannot move the cartridge upwards until it is pushed beyond the clip (as it is in the above frame). When loading the seventh cartridge, it is normal to need to push down slightly on it in order to keep the top of the sixth cartridge just below the bottom of the bolt until the bolt is past the base of the sixth cartridge. It will move that slight amount downwards and then the seventh cartridge will mate to the face of the bolt. The extractor is flush with the face of the bolt at that position (see frame below which I posted earlier in this thread). And there is no need for this cartridge to be fed from below in order to mate with the face of the bolt properly.

(https://i.vgy.me/cpGyib.jpg)

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 06:37:21 PM
One possibility that I believe is likely is that when JFK's head exploded it could have caused LHO to stop his reloading action in midstream. And the knob was simply left in the up position.

Surely you're not serious, Charles....Do you really believe that an assassin would stop shoving the bolt closed in mid action.

Charles, Let me express my appreciation and thank you, for your cooperating in posting very valuable information about how a carcano operates.

I doubt that you fully understand why it is impossible to load the carcano as a seven shot rifle, and that's ok....   You've been a really good sport in posting videos to attempt to support your point.   I've tried to discuss this with others in the past and I might have been more successful in talking to my dog.   I don't expect you to capitulate and agree with me when you have faith in a venerated FBI "expert" who says that the carcano can be loaded as a seven shot rifle.... But in reality you don't need to agree with anybody....Just look at the illustrations .....


I have been looking at the illustrations and I find your claim makes no sense. It is you who refuses to understand.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 06:55:04 PM

I have been looking at the illustrations and I find your claim makes no sense. It is you who refuses to understand.

I'm not refusing to understand..... I have a carcano in my hand and many full clips plus spent carcano shells so I'm working with the "real mc Coy"

Oh and one other thing.... You've solved a mystery that's bugged me for decades....The dented shell...
I now know how that spent shell got dented on the bevel ....
The cut away illustration shows six cartridges in a clip in the magazine Notice where the elevator makes contact with the bottom shell....  It's right on the bevel of the cartridge.

Soooo...I believe that spent shell had at some point been loaded as the bottom shell  (spent) and in the process of pushing the clip down into the magazine, the spent shell was dented by the elevator.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 07:10:21 PM

I have been looking at the illustrations and I find your claim makes no sense. It is you who refuses to understand.

Charles, you posted a picture of the top cartridge in a clip of six rounds.  That top round is just being picked up by the forward moving bolt.   How in the world do you propose to place a seventh round above that top cartridge ??  It is a fact that you could drop a cartridge into the chamber but then of course that sixth round that is being mated to the face of the bolt would run into the back of the cartridge that you dropped into the camber....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 07:24:59 PM
Charles, you posted a picture of the top cartridge in a clip of six rounds.  That top round is just being picked up by the forward moving bolt.   How in the world do you propose to place a seventh round above that top cartridge ??  It is a fact that you could drop a cartridge into the chamber but then of course that sixth round that is being mated to the face of the bolt would run into the back of the cartridge that you dropped into the camber....

All that is needed to prevent the sixth cartridge from being engaged by the bolt is a slight downward motion. That downward motion is accomplished by pressing downward on the seventh cartridge as the bolt is beginning to move forward. Keep the downward pressure on the seventh cartridge until the face of the bolt is past the base of the sixth cartridge and is passing below the sixth cartridge. I have done this many times on other bolt action guns. And I see nothing in the diagrams that would prevent this technique from working on the Carcano.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: James Hackerott on July 24, 2022, 07:37:44 PM
In Robert Groden’s video of Alyea’s film he states that the lifting of the rifle by Lt. Day was staged for the camera.

Groden:
“Billy Lovelady, a depository employee, was present when this film was shot. He said this finding of the rifle was staged, that it had already been found and replaced, and that this scene was replayed for the camera.”

The crime scene photos by Day and Studebaker appear to show the in-situ rifle lying vertically scope up.

Alyea’s film appears to me showing the rifle lying flat on its right side as he lifts straight up by the strap.

Groden’s/Lovelady’s scenario does not conflict with Day’s testimony he picked up the rifle by the “wooden stock” and gave to Fritz, who ejected the un-fired round, leaving the bolt handle in its upright/unlatched position for Alyea’s film.

(https://i.imgur.com/k5pJtte.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rRx7Yrg.gif)

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 07:54:24 PM
In Robert Groden’s video of Alyea’s film he states that the lifting of the rifle by Lt. Day was staged for the camera.

Groden:
“Billy Lovelady, a depository employee, was present when this film was shot. He said this finding of the rifle was staged, that it had already been found and replaced, and that this scene was replayed for the camera.”

The crime scene photos by Day and Studebaker appear to show the in-situ rifle lying vertically scope up.

Alyea’s film appears to me showing the rifle lying flat on its right side as he lifts straight up by the strap.

Groden’s/Lovelady’s scenario does not conflict with Day’s testimony he picked up the rifle by the “wooden stock” and gave to Fritz, who ejected the un-fired round, leaving the bolt handle in its upright/unlatched position for Alyea’s film.

(https://i.imgur.com/k5pJtte.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rRx7Yrg.gif)


I can’t imagine why the DPD would stage that scene for Alyea. And it goes completely against what Alyea has said was the attitude of the officers toward him and his camera. In my opinion, a more likely explanation is that the rifle was simply tilted over, in order to view the side of it, before Day attempted to lift it.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 24, 2022, 08:38:35 PM
In Robert Groden’s video of Alyea’s film he states that the lifting of the rifle by Lt. Day was staged for the camera.

Groden:
“Billy Lovelady, a depository employee, was present when this film was shot. He said this finding of the rifle was staged, that it had already been found and replaced, and that this scene was replayed for the camera.”

The crime scene photos by Day and Studebaker appear to show the in-situ rifle lying vertically scope up.

Alyea’s film appears to me showing the rifle lying flat on its right side as he lifts straight up by the strap.

Groden’s/Lovelady’s scenario does not conflict with Day’s testimony he picked up the rifle by the “wooden stock” and gave to Fritz, who ejected the un-fired round, leaving the bolt handle in its upright/unlatched position for Alyea’s film.

(https://i.imgur.com/k5pJtte.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rRx7Yrg.gif)

Hi James, in Reply #17 I posted a video I'd made from all the pieces of Alyea's footage I could find regarding the discovery of the rifle.
It starts with Fritz stepping into the rifle's hiding place, there is a shot which shows his legs and the rifle is seen on the floor in the upright position. This is taken before Day picks the rifle up.
The notion that this was re-staged for Alyea is a non-starter [IMO]
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 24, 2022, 09:19:04 PM
This guy puts in a single round in an empty MC AND into an MC with a full clip:

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 24, 2022, 09:54:47 PM
This guy puts in a single round in an empty MC AND into an MC with a full clip:



Thanks, this shows that Frazier was correct regarding loading single shots. It doesn't appear to me that this guy actually loaded seven cartridges. But I believe that he did show how it could be done. It is a little trickier than it was for me on more modern guns. I attribute that to the size and shape of the extractor. Here is a screenshot from the video that gives us a better idea of what it is than the diagrams do.


(https://i.vgy.me/pjDjEP.jpg)


I think I have a better idea of where Walt is coming from now. Thanks again!
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 10:06:08 PM
This guy puts in a single round in an empty MC AND into an MC with a full clip:


This guy puts in a single round in an empty MC AND into an MC with a full clip:

COUNT the cartridges....He has FIVE in the clip and ONE that he manipulates into the face of the bolt WITH THE CLIP OUT of the rifle....I've always said that the single round MUST be fed to the face of the bolt from BELOW the bolt....and that's exactly what he does.    But he couldnt then oprn the bolt and insert a full clip of six rounds without extracting the one that he placed in the chamber...
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 24, 2022, 10:08:45 PM

I think I have a better idea of where Walt is coming from now. Thanks again!

I haven't. The fact that one unfired round was found in the chamber is no big deal. The absence of scratches from the elevator would be one thing but how to know if scratches are left every time on every MC?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 10:32:53 PM

Thanks, this shows that Frazier was correct regarding loading single shots. It doesn't appear to me that this guy actually loaded seven cartridges. But I believe that he did show how it could be done. It is a little trickier than it was for me on more modern guns. I attribute that to the size and shape of the extractor. Here is a screenshot from the video that gives us a better idea of what it is than the diagrams do.


(https://i.vgy.me/pjDjEP.jpg)


I think I have a better idea of where Walt is coming from now. Thanks again!

The guy mentions the extractor several times...Because he knows the the extractor is the problem in attempting to load seven rounds .....That extractor MUST be seated behind the rim of the cartridge.....If a person attempts  to drop a cartridge into the barrel and then close the bolt that extractor has no room to cam up and over the rim of the cartridge..( he says that) .f you watch the guy he manipulates the cartridge into the annular space on the face of the bolt  IN THE RECEIVER.... With no clip in the rifle. which allows him plenty of room to manipulate the  single cartridge.   

LOOK at the face of the bolt as he holds the bolt up to the camera.....SEE that extractor??.... When that bolt is in the firing chamber and locked around the rim of a cartridge  that extractor will not allow the bolt to close and latch on a cartridge in the chamber.

I understand that this is all very confusing for someone who doesn't have a carcano to experiment with...and most folks would believe an FBI agent before they would believe their own eyes.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 24, 2022, 10:36:49 PM
I haven't. The fact that one unfired round was found in the chamber is no big deal. The absence of scratches from the elevator would be one thing but how to know if scratches are left every time on every MC?

The fact that one unfired round was found in the chamber is no big deal.

You could not be more wrong!.... That live round that DROPPED OUT    DROPPED OUT of the carcano and fell at the feet of Captain Fritz speaks volumes .....   If you can't understand that ...I'm sorry.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 24, 2022, 10:43:04 PM
That live round that DROPPED OUT    DROPPED OUT of the carcano and fell at the feet of Captain Fritz speaks volumes .....   If you can't understand that ...I'm sorry.

So, we have a live round that was in the chamber. The bolt was forward (not retracted) when the rifle was found. This means that the bullet was enclosed within. So how could it have dropped out? Surely the bolt would have to be fully retracted for that to happen?

(https://i.ibb.co/42YHvKY/bolt-open-cartridge90.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C6MfCmM)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 25, 2022, 12:19:28 AM
I'm not refusing to understand..... I have a carcano in my hand and many full clips plus spent carcano shells so I'm working with the "real mc Coy"

Oh and one other thing.... You've solved a mystery that's bugged me for decades....The dented shell...
I now know how that spent shell got dented on the bevel ....
The cut away illustration shows six cartridges in a clip in the magazine Notice where the elevator makes contact with the bottom shell....  It's right on the bevel of the cartridge.

Soooo...I believe that spent shell had at some point been loaded as the bottom shell  (spent) and in the process of pushing the clip down into the magazine, the spent shell was dented by the elevator.

The cut away illustration shows six cartridges in a clip in the magazine Notice where the elevator makes contact with the bottom shell....  It's right on the bevel of the cartridge.

The dent on the shell is on the lip, I'm not sure how the elevator could cause that.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zqHpzby/Dented-shell-2.png) (https://postimages.org/)

The dent appears to be caused by a specific impact (the small dark patch) rather than being crushed. Watching the graphic Charles posted, I am finding it very difficult to envisage when such a specific impact could have taken place in the cycle of loading/firing/ejecting.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 25, 2022, 12:46:17 AM
I haven't. The fact that one unfired round was found in the chamber is no big deal. The absence of scratches from the elevator would be one thing but how to know if scratches are left every time on every MC?


I should have explained that better. I only understand where Walt is coming from regarding the cartridge being mated to the bolt face from below. This is due to the relative size of the part of the extractor that contacts the cartridge. It is larger and wraps around a bit more of the circumference of the cartridge base that the diagrams' angle indicates. Also larger and wraps around a bit more than the actual extractors of  more modern guns that I have experience with. But I do not agree with Walt's conclusions.

The guy in the video shows that it isn't difficult to manipulate the cartridge so that it mates with the bolt face properly and the bolt closes and locks normally. I don't understand why he didn't do it with all six cartridges in the clip unless he only had six cartridges in total. But he did show that the bolt can be closed with all six cartridges still in the clip below the bolt. And he did show that a cartridge can be manipulated into the bolt face properly and the bolt close and lock while there is a clip with five cartridges in it. So, the only question in my mind is how difficult is it to manipulate the seventh cartridge into the face of the bolt while all six cartridges are in the clip below the bolt.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 12:48:47 AM
So, we have a live round that was in the chamber. The bolt was forward (not retracted) when the rifle was found. This means that the bullet was enclosed within. So how could it have dropped out? Surely the bolt would have to be fully retracted for that to happen?

(https://i.ibb.co/42YHvKY/bolt-open-cartridge90.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C6MfCmM)

I'm sorry Jim...You don't WANT to follow along with my statements, you want to BELIEVE what suits your theory.

I've said over and over that the cartridge MUST be seated on the face of the bolt BEFORE the cartridge is in the chamber. IF the cartridge is in the chamber (as I've always stated was the case when the rifle was found ) then the front of the bolt is SURROUNDED by the rear of the firing chamber and the extractor CANNOT cam up and over the rim of the cartridge that is in the chamber.

Let me repeat what I've always said....The yokel who placed the live round in the carcano didn't know that the bolt won't close and latch if you merely drop a cartridge into the firing chamber.   The yokel didn't know that, and he did in fact drop a live cartridge into the chamber and attempt to close and latch the bolt.    The bolt hit the back of the cartridge in the chamber and the bolt could not be latched. (The extractor would not cam over the rim of the cartridge )  The bolt was stopped in the exact place that it is seen in the Alyea film.    Thus the yokel simply hid the rifle beneath the pallet of books with the bolt unlatched ( the rifle was NOT ready to fire as the liars claimed.)  We can be sure that the extractor was not behind the rim of the cartridge because the live round simply fell out by the force of gravity and NOT by being pulled out by the extractor, because the cartridge did not strike the ejector and fly away from the rifle....It simply fell on the floor.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 12:59:39 AM
The cut away illustration shows six cartridges in a clip in the magazine Notice where the elevator makes contact with the bottom shell....  It's right on the bevel of the cartridge.

The dent on the shell is on the lip, I'm not sure how the elevator could cause that.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zqHpzby/Dented-shell-2.png) (https://postimages.org/)

The dent appears to be caused by a specific impact (the small dark patch) rather than being crushed. Watching the graphic Charles posted, I am finding it very difficult to envisage when such a specific impact could have taken place in the cycle of loading/firing/ejecting.

The dent was not necessarily caused by an impact.... LOOK at the cutaway and notice that the bottom of the bottom cartridge is in contact with the elevator..... A spent shell in the bottom position could be easily dented by the elevator. when the clip is pushed down into the magazine

(https://i.vgy.me/R23UED.jpg)


(https://i.vgy.me/R23UED.jpg)


Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 25, 2022, 01:18:56 AM
I'm sorry Jim...You don't WANT to follow along with my statements, you want to BELIEVE what suits your theory.

I've said over and over that the cartridge MUST be seated on the face of the bolt BEFORE the cartridge is in the chamber. IF the cartridge is in the chamber (as I've always stated was the case when the rifle was found ) then the front of the bolt is SURROUNDED by the rear of the firing chamber and the extractor CANNOT cam up and over the rim of the cartridge that is in the chamber.

Let me repeat what I've always said....The yokel who placed the live round in the carcano didn't know that the bolt won't close and latch if you merely drop a cartridge into the firing chamber.   The yokel didn't know that, and he did in fact drop a live cartridge into the chamber and attempt to close and latch the bolt.    The bolt hit the back of the cartridge in the chamber and the bolt could not be latched. (The extractor would not cam over the rim of the cartridge )  The bolt was stopped in the exact place that it is seen in the Alyea film.    Thus the yokel simply hid the rifle beneath the pallet of books with the bolt unlatched ( the rifle was NOT ready to fire as the liars claimed.)  We can be sure that the extractor was not behind the rim of the cartridge because the live round simply fell out by the force of gravity and NOT by being pulled out by the extractor, because the cartridge did not strike the ejector and fly away from the rifle....It simply fell on the floor.

I'm starting to get a grip on what you're saying Walt.
Correct me if I'm wrong. In the pic below I'm not sure what the component is called picked out by the red arrow but in Charles' graphic, when the bolt is latched downwards, this component also moves downwards into the slot picked out by the yellow arrow. It appears that this component is not in line with the slot so, I'm assuming, the bolt is not fully forward and it isn't possible to latch the bolt.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bYRV33NW/Bolt-position-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

What I don't understand is why a bullet, manually inserted into the chamber, would cause the bolt to be blocked.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 25, 2022, 01:20:33 AM
The dent was not necessarily caused by an impact.... LOOK at the cutaway and notice that the bottom of the bottom cartridge is in contact with the elevator..... A spent shell in the bottom position could be easily dented by the elevator. when the clip is pushed down into the magazine

(https://i.vgy.me/R23UED.jpg)


(https://i.vgy.me/R23UED.jpg)

There's no way, in my opinion, that a shell with the bullet still inside it, could be deformed so badly by the elevator.

LATER EDIT: What would be the point of loading a spent shell?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 01:30:45 AM

I should have explained that better. I only understand where Walt is coming from regarding the cartridge being mated to the bolt face from below. This is due to the relative size of the part of the extractor that contacts the cartridge. It is larger and wraps around a bit more of the circumference of the cartridge base that the diagrams' angle indicates. Also larger and wraps around a bit more than the actual extractors of  more modern guns that I have experience with. But I do not agree with Walt's conclusions.

The guy in the video shows that it isn't difficult to manipulate the cartridge so that it mates with the bolt face properly and the bolt closes and locks normally. I don't understand why he didn't do it with all six cartridges in the clip unless he only had six cartridges in total. But he did show that the bolt can be closed with all six cartridges still in the clip below the bolt. And he did show that a cartridge can be manipulated into the bolt face properly and the bolt close and lock while there is a clip with five cartridges in it. So, the only question in my mind is how difficult is it to manipulate the seventh cartridge into the face of the bolt while all six cartridges are in the clip below the bolt.


I only understand where Walt is coming from regarding the cartridge being mated to the bolt face from below. This is due to the relative size of the part of the extractor that contacts the cartridge. It is larger and wraps around a bit more of the circumference of the cartridge base that the diagrams' angle indicates.

Back to the starting line.... I said the carcano cannot be loaded as a single shot rifle by merely DROPPING A LIVE ROUND INTO THE CHAMBER.   The reason the carcano can't be loaded with a single cartridge by dropping the single round into the chamber is graphically explained visually in the video . The man holds the bolt up to the camera and it's obvious that the diameter of the
face of the bolt including the extractor is much smaller at 10.36mm  than the diameter of the rim of a carcano cartridge which is  11.39mm   ( like trying to put a size 12 foot in a size 10 shoe)

Am I making myself clear?   
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 01:42:30 AM
I'm starting to get a grip on what you're saying Walt.
Correct me if I'm wrong. In the pic below I'm not sure what the component is called picked out by the red arrow but in Charles' graphic, when the bolt is latched downwards, this component also moves downwards into the slot picked out by the yellow arrow. It appears that this component is not in line with the slot so, I'm assuming, the bolt is not fully forward and it isn't possible to latch the bolt.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bYRV33NW/Bolt-position-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

What I don't understand is why a bullet, manually inserted into the chamber, would cause the bolt to be blocked.

I'm assuming, the bolt is not fully forward and it isn't possible to latch the bolt.


This is correct...But you've got the yellow red arrow pointing at the safety....That safety is about 1 3/4 inches to the rear of the bolt knob. The blue line points to the bolt knob and that knob in that position will not rotate down because the rectangular portion of the bolt hand has not moved far enough forward to clear the slot in the bridge of the rifle ( it needs to be pushed about 1/8 of an inch further forward before the bolt handle will clear the slot and rotate down . of course if there is a cartridge in the chamber that was simply dropped into the chamber that bolt will not move any further forward so the handle can be rotated down to the latched and ready to fire position.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 25, 2022, 01:54:53 AM
I'm assuming, the bolt is not fully forward and it isn't possible to latch the bolt.


This is correct...But you've got the yellow red arrow pointing at the safety....That safety is about 1 3/4 inches to the rear of the bolt knob. The blue line points to the bolt knob and that knob in that position will not rotate down because the rectangular portion of the bolt hand has not moved far enough forward to clear the slot in the bridge of the rifle ( it needs to be pushed about 1/8 of an inch further forward before the bolt handle will clear the slot and rotate down . of course if there is a cartridge in the chamber that was simply dropped into the chamber that bolt will not move any further forward so the handle can be rotated down to the latched and ready to fire position.

Doesn't the safety rotate with the bolt handle when it is latched down and fit into the slot picked out by the yellow arrow?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 02:40:34 AM
There's no way, in my opinion, that a shell with the bullet still inside it, could be deformed so badly by the elevator.

LATER EDIT: What would be the point of loading a spent shell?

in my opinion, that a shell with the bullet still inside it, could be deformed so badly by the elevator.

Good thinkin..I agree a live cartridge with the bullet seated would not be dented by the elevator...But an empy brass could easily be dented...

What would be the point of loading a spent shell?

I've done it myself.... In experimenting I don't like to use live ammo....So I've loaded a clip with spent brass .
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 02:45:46 AM
Doesn't the safety rotate with the bolt handle when it is latched down and fit into the slot picked out by the yellow arrow?
Yes, that's correct, Dan
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 25, 2022, 04:48:05 AM
As I recall, the “gungeek” videos were done as a direct result of somebody from this forum asking him that question years ago in response to Walt making the same claim that it couldn’t be done. I believe there is a part 3 where he does it with a full clip.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 25, 2022, 08:23:53 AM
Yes, that's correct, Dan

Thought so.
I was just pointing out that in the pic below the safety isn't quite lined up with the slot it is supposed to fit into. For those without an "expert eye" it's a good visual representation of the fact the bolt is not fully forward and that it is not possible to latch the bolt.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bYRV33NW/Bolt-position-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


In the video below I was struck by how quick and fluid the movement of latching the bolt is. It doesn't seem to be something you'd stop half way through doing as Charles suggested. I'm also sceptical of the suggestion that the bolt handle was knocked upwards and backwards by placing the rifle in it's hiding place.



Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 25, 2022, 08:54:11 AM
I'm sorry Jim...You don't WANT to follow along with my statements, you want to BELIEVE what suits your theory.

I've said over and over that the cartridge MUST be seated on the face of the bolt BEFORE the cartridge is in the chamber. IF the cartridge is in the chamber (as I've always stated was the case when the rifle was found ) then the front of the bolt is SURROUNDED by the rear of the firing chamber and the extractor CANNOT cam up and over the rim of the cartridge that is in the chamber.

Let me repeat what I've always said....The yokel who placed the live round in the carcano didn't know that the bolt won't close and latch if you merely drop a cartridge into the firing chamber.   The yokel didn't know that, and he did in fact drop a live cartridge into the chamber and attempt to close and latch the bolt.    The bolt hit the back of the cartridge in the chamber and the bolt could not be latched. (The extractor would not cam over the rim of the cartridge )  The bolt was stopped in the exact place that it is seen in the Alyea film.    Thus the yokel simply hid the rifle beneath the pallet of books with the bolt unlatched ( the rifle was NOT ready to fire as the liars claimed.)  We can be sure that the extractor was not behind the rim of the cartridge because the live round simply fell out by the force of gravity and NOT by being pulled out by the extractor, because the cartridge did not strike the ejector and fly away from the rifle....It simply fell on the floor.

Bear with me Walt, I just don't understand how the round could have simply dropped out if the bolt was fully (or a quarter of an inch short of being) forward, as we see that it was in the Alyea film:

(https://i.ibb.co/xmqDCwF/Cartridge-housed.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SQwPsHf)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 25, 2022, 11:57:26 AM
Bear with me Walt, I just don't understand how the round could have simply dropped out if the bolt was fully (or a quarter of an inch short of being) forward, as we see that it was in the Alyea film:

(https://i.ibb.co/xmqDCwF/Cartridge-housed.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SQwPsHf)


Jim, you bring up a very interesting point. And I agree that it is questionable whether or not the round would be held in place by friction. After all, the diameter of the bullet is slightly larger than the bore diameter of the rifle. Here are the specifics:


Mr. EISENBERG.   …Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted into evidence the same type of cartridge from the same type of cartridge--as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they are.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is, 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co.?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?
Mr. FRAZIER. The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed
with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its I diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length-possibly it would be better to put
it ‘in inches rather than millimeters. The diameter is .267 inches, and a length
of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches.
Mr. MCCLOY. You say that the diameter is 6.65. Did you mean 6.65 or 6.5 millimeters?
 Mr. FRAZIER. I was looking for that figure on that. It is about 6.6 — 6.65 millimeters.
The bullet, of course, will be a larger diameter than the bore of the weapon to accommodate the depths of the grooves in the barrel.
 

If Walt’s idea of the extractor not engaging the rim of the base of the cartridge were true, then wouldn’t the bullet stay stuck in the barrel by friction? The extractor is normally needed to extract the empty cartridge after it has expanded due to the explosion of the powder charge. But in the case of an unfired cartridge, it is also needed to extract the cartridge due to the friction fit of the bullet in the barrel. And the long parallel sides of these bullets create more surface area that contacts the rifle barrel than the more common pointed style bullets. So, theoretically, the friction fit of these type bullets would tend to take more force to overcome (than would the more typical pointed style bullets).
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 25, 2022, 12:18:21 PM

Jim, you bring up a very interesting point. And I agree that it is questionable whether or not the round would be held in place by friction.

BUT... Walt is saying that the unfired round just dropped out (through gravity) as Fritz handled the rifle - but that would have been impossible with the bolt arm being in the position it was in the Aylea film! If Fritz fully retracted the bolt, then the round could simply fall out.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 25, 2022, 12:31:52 PM
BUT... Walt is saying that the unfired round just dropped out (through gravity) as Fritz handled the rifle - but that would have been impossible with the bolt arm being in the position it was in the Aylea film! If Fritz fully retracted the bolt, then the round could simply fall out.

Walt apparently thinks that the extractor was behind the rim of the cartridge and he apparently believes that this is the reason that the bolt (apparently?) wasn’t fully forward. If this were true then Fritz could fully retract the bolt and I believe that friction would still hold the cartridge in place in the barrel.

However, if Walt is not correct and the extractor was engaged with the cartridge properly, then Fritz could fully retract the bolt gently and the bullet would fall gently to his feet. Walt apparently believes that the ejector would throw the cartridge across the room. But when a very light force is used this is simply not true. Here is testimony to back this up:


Mr. FRAZIER.  …Now, this circle will not necessarily encompass all cartridge cases ejected from the rifle, since the ejection is determined, not only by the angle of the weapon, but more by the force with which the bolt is operated. A very light force on the bolt can cause the cartridge case to tip gently out and fall at your feet. However, under normal conditions of reloading in a fairly rapid manner, we found the cartridge cases to land in this circle.

So, it appears to me that the more likely scenario is that the cartridge was properly engaged by the extractor and that Fritz used a very light force to fully retract the bolt.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 25, 2022, 12:36:40 PM
As I recall, the “gungeek” videos were done as a direct result of somebody from this forum asking him that question years ago in response to Walt making the same claim that it couldn’t be done. I believe there is a part 3 where he does it with a full clip.


Thanks, that makes sense because he kept saying that there was that question. And I couldn’t understand why he didn’t demonstrate whether or not it could be done.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 02:18:43 PM

Jim, you bring up a very interesting point. And I agree that it is questionable whether or not the round would be held in place by friction. After all, the diameter of the bullet is slightly larger than the bore diameter of the rifle. Here are the specifics:


Mr. EISENBERG.   …Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted into evidence the same type of cartridge from the same type of cartridge--as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they are.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is, 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co.?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?
Mr. FRAZIER. The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed
with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its I diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length-possibly it would be better to put
it ‘in inches rather than millimeters. The diameter is .267 inches, and a length
of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches.
Mr. MCCLOY. You say that the diameter is 6.65. Did you mean 6.65 or 6.5 millimeters?
 Mr. FRAZIER. I was looking for that figure on that. It is about 6.6 — 6.65 millimeters.
The bullet, of course, will be a larger diameter than the bore of the weapon to accommodate the depths of the grooves in the barrel.
 

If Walt’s idea of the extractor not engaging the rim of the base of the cartridge were true, then wouldn’t the bullet stay stuck in the barrel by friction? The extractor is normally needed to extract the empty cartridge after it has expanded due to the explosion of the powder charge. But in the case of an unfired cartridge, it is also needed to extract the cartridge due to the friction fit of the bullet in the barrel. And the long parallel sides of these bullets create more surface area that contacts the rifle barrel than the more common pointed style bullets. So, theoretically, the friction fit of these type bullets would tend to take more force to overcome (than would the more typical pointed style bullets).

Jim, you bring up a very interesting point. And I agree that it is questionable whether or not the round would be held in place by friction. After all, the diameter of the bullet is slightly larger than the bore diameter of the rifle.

Now after a crash course in the mechanics of the carcano action, we are getting to the point .... All indicators that we can see indicate that the yokel simply dropped the live round into the chamber and attempted to close and latch the bolt.  But the carcano cannot be loaded in this manner, and he ended up with the bolt blocked  in the position it always stops if someone attempts to load the carcano by dropping a round into the chamber.


 The extractor is normally needed to extract the empty cartridge after it has expanded due to the explosion of the powder charge. But in the case of an unfired cartridge, it is also needed to extract the cartridge due to the friction fit of the bullet in the barrel. And the long parallel sides of these bullets create more surface area that contacts the rifle barrel than the more common pointed style bullets.

Now we're getting to a debatable point that is unsolvable..... Basically you're right Charles....I would only disagree on the idea that the sides of the cartridge are parallel ......They are not parallel .....   There is a slight taper with the front of the cartrige being slightly smaller in diameter than the rear of the cartridge.   BUT BUT   since we don't have the actual rifle and the same live round..... there is no way that we can know if the friction was enough to hold the cartridge in the rifle.

But since several witnesses reported that it did drop out onto the floor at  Captain Fritz's feet we can "assume" that the friction was not great enough to hold the cartridge in the chamber.  Nobody reported that the cartridge was flipped away from the rifle as would be the case if the extractor had been engaged with the rim of the cartridge.

Whew!...... 

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 02:23:15 PM
BUT... Walt is saying that the unfired round just dropped out (through gravity) as Fritz handled the rifle - but that would have been impossible with the bolt arm being in the position it was in the Aylea film! If Fritz fully retracted the bolt, then the round could simply fall out.

If Fritz fully retracted the bolt, then the round could simply fall out.

All witnesses reported that Fritz DID in fact retract the bolt ...and the live round dropped out at his feet.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 02:38:57 PM
Walt apparently thinks that the extractor was behind the rim of the cartridge and he apparently believes that this is the reason that the bolt (apparently?) wasn’t fully forward. If this were true then Fritz could fully retract the bolt and I believe that friction would still hold the cartridge in place in the barrel.

However, if Walt is not correct and the extractor was engaged with the cartridge properly, then Fritz could fully retract the bolt gently and the bullet would fall gently to his feet. Walt apparently believes that the ejector would throw the cartridge across the room. But when a very light force is used this is simply not true. Here is testimony to back this up:


Mr. FRAZIER.  …Now, this circle will not necessarily encompass all cartridge cases ejected from the rifle, since the ejection is determined, not only by the angle of the weapon, but more by the force with which the bolt is operated. A very light force on the bolt can cause the cartridge case to tip gently out and fall at your feet. However, under normal conditions of reloading in a fairly rapid manner, we found the cartridge cases to land in this circle.

So, it appears to me that the more likely scenario is that the cartridge was properly engaged by the extractor and that Fritz used a very light force to fully retract the bolt.

You present a valid counterpoint Charles.....If the bolt is retracted very slowly the cartridge will not be flipped out with force.
Bur Fritz didn't know that.....he simply pulled the bolt open ( it wasn't latched)

And don't forget that when Day picked up the rifle FROM THE FLOOR ( not jammed between boxes) the bolt was in the exact position it would be if someone had dropped a cartridge into the chamber and tried to close and latch the bolt. This position of the bolt is a very solid indication that the extractor was not around the rim of the cartridge .....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 25, 2022, 03:08:23 PM
Jim, you bring up a very interesting point. And I agree that it is questionable whether or not the round would be held in place by friction. After all, the diameter of the bullet is slightly larger than the bore diameter of the rifle.

Now after a crash course in the mechanics of the carcano action, we are getting to the point .... All indicators that we can see indicate that the yokel simply dropped the live round into the chamber and attempted to close and latch the bolt.  But the carcano cannot be loaded in this manner, and he ended up with the bolt blocked  in the position it always stops if someone attempts to load the carcano by dropping a round into the chamber.


 The extractor is normally needed to extract the empty cartridge after it has expanded due to the explosion of the powder charge. But in the case of an unfired cartridge, it is also needed to extract the cartridge due to the friction fit of the bullet in the barrel. And the long parallel sides of these bullets create more surface area that contacts the rifle barrel than the more common pointed style bullets.

Now we're getting to a debatable point that is unsolvable..... Basically you're right Charles....I would only disagree on the idea that the sides of the cartridge are parallel ......They are not parallel .....   There is a slight taper with the front of the cartrige being slightly smaller in diameter than the rear of the cartridge.   BUT BUT   since we don't have the actual rifle and the same live round..... there is no way that we can know if the friction was enough to hold the cartridge in the rifle.

But since several witnesses reported that it did drop out onto the floor at  Captain Fritz's feet we can "assume" that the friction was not great enough to hold the cartridge in the chamber.  Nobody reported that the cartridge was flipped away from the rifle as would be the case if the extractor had been engaged with the rim of the cartridge.

Whew!......


Question for you Walt:

Do we have Fritz operating the bolt on Alyea’s video? I have watched it several times but cannot discern whether or not the bolt is operated during the video or at some other point in time that wasn’t captured in these video segments. What do you say?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 03:44:56 PM

Question for you Walt:

Do we have Fritz operating the bolt on Alyea’s video? I have watched it several times but cannot discern whether or not the bolt is operated during the video or at some other point in time that wasn’t captured in these video segments. What do you say?

I've never seen any footage of Fritz pulling the bolt back and opening the action....  However a few years ago the Dutchman ( I can't remember his name at the moment) presented blurry photos that he said showed the cartridge falling to the floor.

I believe that since the bolt was not latched it might have slid open as Day and Fritz handled the rifle BEFORE the photo of Fritz with a handkerchief in his hand touches the rifle....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 25, 2022, 03:52:18 PM

Question for you Walt:

Do we have Fritz operating the bolt on Alyea’s video? I have watched it several times but cannot discern whether or not the bolt is operated during the video or at some other point in time that wasn’t captured in these video segments. What do you say?

Carcano bolt/clip operation (Calvary version)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 04:29:25 PM

Jim, you bring up a very interesting point. And I agree that it is questionable whether or not the round would be held in place by friction. After all, the diameter of the bullet is slightly larger than the bore diameter of the rifle. Here are the specifics:


Mr. EISENBERG.   …Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted into evidence the same type of cartridge from the same type of cartridge--as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they are.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is, 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co.?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?
Mr. FRAZIER. The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed
with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its I diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length-possibly it would be better to put
it ‘in inches rather than millimeters. The diameter is .267 inches, and a length
of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches.
Mr. MCCLOY. You say that the diameter is 6.65. Did you mean 6.65 or 6.5 millimeters?
 Mr. FRAZIER. I was looking for that figure on that. It is about 6.6 — 6.65 millimeters.
The bullet, of course, will be a larger diameter than the bore of the weapon to accommodate the depths of the grooves in the barrel.
 

If Walt’s idea of the extractor not engaging the rim of the base of the cartridge were true, then wouldn’t the bullet stay stuck in the barrel by friction? The extractor is normally needed to extract the empty cartridge after it has expanded due to the explosion of the powder charge. But in the case of an unfired cartridge, it is also needed to extract the cartridge due to the friction fit of the bullet in the barrel. And the long parallel sides of these bullets create more surface area that contacts the rifle barrel than the more common pointed style bullets. So, theoretically, the friction fit of these type bullets would tend to take more force to overcome (than would the more typical pointed style bullets).

in the case of an unfired cartridge, it (the extractor) is also needed to extract the cartridge due to the friction fit of the bullet in the barrel.

This is debatable..... there are many variables and unknowns .......  But a live round easily falls out of my carcano ( I'm using an old ( 1936) Italian army cartridge )  I haven't tried the experiment with some modern hunting ammo.

In summary .....  I truly believe that the evidence ( the rifle) indicates that the carcano ( c2766) was left as a "throw down gun"
to lead the investigators into believing that Lee Oswald had fired  shots AT AT  JFK. Lee Oswald himself probably was the yokel who dropped the live round into the chamber of the carcano and then hid it beneath the pallet of books.   He was still naive enough to believe that the ruse they had tried at Walker's would work, and it might get Castro to open the door and allow him to shelter in Cuba.   Then he might be able to learn if the nuke missiles had all been removed from Cuba.

I'm 100% sure that the DPD in situ photos that have been presented at fakes....That carcano was NOT jammed between boxes of books as it seems to be in the in situ photo.   If that is a fact.....and the rifle was lying on it's side as it is seen in the Alyea   
film, then the entire tale about how Lee Oswald ran by the boxes of books at the top of the stairs is false. He allegedly and hastily performed a super human task of holding the 9 pound rifle with one hand,  by the base of the wooden stock and jammed it with the scope ( 3 1/2 inches wide) into a two inch wide crack between boxes of books.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 25, 2022, 04:37:20 PM
If Fritz fully retracted the bolt, then the round could simply fall out.

All witnesses reported that Fritz DID in fact retract the bolt ...and the live round dropped out at his feet.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 25, 2022, 05:06:58 PM
in the case of an unfired cartridge, it (the extractor) is also needed to extract the cartridge due to the friction fit of the bullet in the barrel.

This is debatable..... there are many variables and unknowns .......  But a live round easily falls out of my carcano ( I'm using an old ( 1936) Italian army cartridge )  I haven't tried the experiment with some modern hunting ammo


When you experiment with your 1936 Italian army cartridge, do you hold the rifle with the muzzle end pointing up towards the sky so that gravity is the force that pulls the cartridge out of the barrel?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 05:13:58 PM

When you experiment with your 1936 Italian army cartridge, do you hold the rifle with the muzzle end pointing up towards the sky so that gravity is the force that pulls the cartridge out of the barrel?

Yes.... I had the muzzle pointing toward the ceiling.  However .....that antique cartridge is slightly tarnished and my rifle hasn't been cleaned and oiled for some time....so the experiment is far from conclusive.....

Even if we had c2766 and the actual live round with which to perform experiments....we couldn't be certain that all conditions were exactly as they were in the TSBD that afternoon.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 25, 2022, 05:23:05 PM
Yes.... I had the muzzle pointing toward the ceiling.  However .....that antique cartridge is slightly tarnished and my rifle hasn't been cleaned and oiled for some time....so the experiment is far from conclusive.....

Even if we had c2766 and the actual live round with which to perform experiments....we couldn't be certain that all conditions were exactly as they were in the TSBD that afternoon.


Take a look at the top of page 4 of this thread. James Hackerott posted images that show the rifle being handled by Day and Fritz during the time period when it is believed that the cartridge C-141 was ejected from the rifle. Notice that the muzzle end of the rifle is pointing down towards the floor. This position would dictate that gravity would help hold the cartridge in the barrel. Do you have any evidence that shows Day and Fritz holding the rifle with the muzzle pointing up so that gravity might help pull the cartridge out of the barrel?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 05:26:25 PM
The dent was not necessarily caused by an impact.... LOOK at the cutaway and notice that the bottom of the bottom cartridge is in contact with the elevator..... A spent shell in the bottom position could be easily dented by the elevator. when the clip is pushed down into the magazine

(https://i.vgy.me/R23UED.jpg)


(https://i.vgy.me/R23UED.jpg)

I truly believe that I now know how the spent shell got dented....It was used as a spent shell as the bottom cartridge in a clip of cartridges and the pressure applied to latch the clip caused the steel elevator to dent the spent shell.

Which means that the shell had been fired at some previous time and it certainly was not fired on 11/22/63.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 05:34:54 PM

Take a look at the top of page 4 of this thread. James Hackerott posted images that show the rifle being handled by Day and Fritz during the time period when it is believed that the cartridge C-141 was ejected from the rifle. Notice that the muzzle end of the rifle is pointing down towards the floor. This position would dictate that gravity would help hold the cartridge in the barrel. Do you have any evidence that shows Day and Fritz holding the rifle with the muzzle pointing up so that gravity might help pull the cartridge out of the barrel?

C'mon Charles .....I'm sure that you know that the images ( page 4) were taken as Lt Day picked the rifle up from the floor and started to hand it to Fritz ...... This was BEFORE the rifle was handled by Fritz.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 25, 2022, 05:42:31 PM
C'mon Charles .....I'm sure that you know that the images ( page 4) were taken as Lt Day picked the rifle up from the floor and started to hand it to Fritz ...... This was BEFORE the rifle was handled by Fritz.


If I remember correctly, Day takes the rifle back from Fritz while Fritz has his hanky in hand. And the rifle is positioned with the muzzle pointing down. Unless you have some evidence to the contrary, I believe that your theory doesn’t seem to “hold water”.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 05:56:00 PM

If I remember correctly, Day takes the rifle back from Fritz while Fritz has his hanky in hand. And the rifle is positioned with the muzzle pointing down. Unless you have some evidence to the contrary, I believe that your theory doesn’t seem to “hold water”.

 You need to show Fritz handing the rifle back to Day.....   I don't believe that happened.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 25, 2022, 06:53:36 PM
You need to show Fritz handing the rifle back to Day.....   I don't believe that happened.

Post #17 of this thread includes a compilation video provided by Dan. I was remembering seeing what Dan describes below and I must have mistaken that for Day taking the rifle back from him. My bad…

Day turns to Fritz who grabs the strap. Fritz then produces a handkerchief and appears to grab the bolt handle (or around that area) and Day immediately pulls the rifle away from him. After this Day and Fritz examine the rifle together.

However, the end of Dan’s compilation shows Day dusting the rifle for prints. I assume that happened after Day and Fritz examined the rifle together. Therefore Fritz must have handed the rifle back to Day at some point.

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 10:14:33 PM
Post #17 of this thread includes a compilation video provided by Dan. I was remembering seeing what Dan describes below and I must have mistaken that for Day taking the rifle back from him. My bad…

Day turns to Fritz who grabs the strap. Fritz then produces a handkerchief and appears to grab the bolt handle (or around that area) and Day immediately pulls the rifle away from him. After this Day and Fritz examine the rifle together.

However, the end of Dan’s compilation shows Day dusting the rifle for prints. I assume that happened after Day and Fritz examined the rifle together. Therefore Fritz must have handed the rifle back to Day at some point.

Yes, you're right....Fritz had to have let Day take possession of the rifle because Alyea filmed Day dusting the rifle with finger print powder behind the brightly lit west window.  I'm not sure that Day ever relinquished total possession to Fritz... There may be some law that would have been broken if Day had taken his hand off the rifle...

Now let's Look at the practical aspect of this.....  If Lee Oswald had been the shooter, what would his actions have been after he had fired three shots?   In my opinion he would definitely ( by reflex action) have loaded that fourth round, and it would have been in the chamber with the bolt closed and latched.   And therefore the rifle would not have been found with the bolt unlatched and about 1/4 inch short of being closed and latched.  It just doesn't make sense for an assassin to stop loading  his rifle in mid stroke.

I firmly believe that the rifle was simply a throw down gun and it was never fired that day....

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 25, 2022, 10:31:47 PM
Post #17 of this thread includes a compilation video provided by Dan. I was remembering seeing what Dan describes below and I must have mistaken that for Day taking the rifle back from him. My bad…

Day turns to Fritz who grabs the strap. Fritz then produces a handkerchief and appears to grab the bolt handle (or around that area) and Day immediately pulls the rifle away from him. After this Day and Fritz examine the rifle together.

However, the end of Dan’s compilation shows Day dusting the rifle for prints. I assume that happened after Day and Fritz examined the rifle together. Therefore Fritz must have handed the rifle back to Day at some point.

the end of Dan’s compilation shows Day dusting the rifle for prints.

Yes, Alyea did film detective Day dusting the rifle for prints ....and Alyea's camera caught the brass clip in the magazine on film.

The fact that the clip was still in the rifle raises more questions.   We know that the official tale says that the live round was the last round in the clip and it was in the chamber.... And since that clip drops out of the magazine when the last round is stripped from the clip by the forward stroke of the bolt .....then that clip should have been on the floor in the "Sniper's Nest".

SO WHY was it in the magazine when Day was dusting the rifle ??     
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 25, 2022, 11:29:57 PM
Yes, you're right....Fritz had to have let Day take possession of the rifle because Alyea filmed Day dusting the rifle with finger print powder behind the brightly lit west window.  I'm not sure that Day ever relinquished total possession to Fritz... There may be some law that would have been broken if Day had taken his hand off the rifle...

Now let's Look at the practical aspect of this.....  If Lee Oswald had been the shooter, what would his actions have been after he had fired three shots?   In my opinion he would definitely ( by reflex action) have loaded that fourth round, and it would have been in the chamber with the bolt closed and latched.   And therefore the rifle would not have been found with the bolt unlatched and about 1/4 inch short of being closed and latched.  It just doesn't make sense for an assassin to stop loading  his rifle in mid stroke.

I firmly believe that the rifle was simply a throw down gun and it was never fired that day....



I think that the sight of JFK's head exploding could have been enough of a shock (even to LHO) to make him just freeze in the middle of loading the next round. But, of course, anything we come up with is only conjecture.

Another, totally different, possibility is that LHO actually did complete the loading process of the next round and set the rifle down between the boxes. The first photos taken by the DPD reportedly show the rifle before anyone touched it. And the rifle can be seen in that photo upright. The Alyea film appears to show Day lifting the rifle from a laying down position. So it is conceivable that before Day lifted the rifle from the floor that either he or Fritz could have lifted the bolt handle into the up position by reaching between the boxes. I am not saying that that is what happened. Only that I think it is a possibility.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 25, 2022, 11:35:26 PM
the end of Dan’s compilation shows Day dusting the rifle for prints.

Yes, Alyea did film detective Day dusting the rifle for prints ....and Alyea caught the brass clip in the magazine on film.

The fact that the clip was still in the rifle raises more questions.   We know that the official tale says that the live round was the last round in the clip and it was in the chamber.... And since that clip drops out of the magazine when the last round is stripped from the clip by the forward stroke of the bolt .....then that clip should have been on the floor in the "Sniper's Nest".

SO WHY was it in the magazine when Day was dusting the rifle ??     


It could possibly be that a less than clean and lubricated magazine and friction held it in place. After all, if I understand it correctly, gravity is the only force that causes it to fall out of the bottom of the magazine. And the clip appears to be relatively lightweight. Therefore the force of gravity wouldn't be very powerful.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: James Hackerott on July 26, 2022, 01:54:43 AM
For what it is worth….

From the TV show Caught on Film (COF) – “Infamous Guns” episode.
Tom Alyea was the guest for this first of three segments of the hour long show.
 
After finding the hidden rifle:

Narrator
10 minutes after finding the shells officers spot a rifle hidden beneath some shipping boxes.

Alyea
This is the first picture of the assassin’s rifle. At this time we did not know it was an assassin. (Rifle on floor with Capt. Fritz standing next to the rifle).

Narrator
Capt. Fritz decides to allow the crime scene investigation team to examine the rifle before removing it from its hiding place. While they are waiting for the crime scene team to examine the rifle the investigators inside learned that President Kennedy has in fact been killed.

Alyea
We heard for the first time that the President is dead. We were standing there looking at the weapon that killed the President of the United States and that’s all we could see of it (rifle).

Narrator
After determining there were no prints on any of the exposed surfaces Crime Scene Investigator J.C. Day moves the rifle from it’s hiding place and hands it to Capt. Fritz.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 26, 2022, 02:00:52 AM

It could possibly be that a less than clean and lubricated magazine and friction held it in place. After all, if I understand it correctly, gravity is the only force that causes it to fall out of the bottom of the magazine. And the clip appears to be relatively lightweight. Therefore the force of gravity wouldn't be very powerful.

gravity is the only force that causes it to fall out of the bottom of the magazine. And the clip appears to be relatively lightweight. Therefore the force of gravity wouldn't be very powerful.


Yes, the clip does simply fall out when the last round is stripped from the clip by the forward stroke of the bolt...

The clip was made of brass and the brass clips are actually heavier than the steel clips that we've seen drop out on the you tube videos.  I'm 100% certain that if that carcano had been fired from that 6th floor window the clip would have been right there on the floor beneath that window. I believe the yokel who dropped the live round into the chamber also placed the clip in the magazine.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 26, 2022, 02:09:57 AM
For what it is worth….

From the TV show Caught on Film (COF) – “Infamous Guns” episode.
Tom Alyea was the guest for this first of three segments of the hour long show.
 
After finding the hidden rifle:

Narrator
10 minutes after finding the shells officers spot a rifle hidden beneath some shipping boxes.

Alyea
This is the first picture of the assassin’s rifle. At this time we did not know it was an assassin. (Rifle on floor with Capt. Fritz standing next to the rifle).

Narrator
Capt. Fritz decides to allow the crime scene investigation team to examine the rifle before removing it from its hiding place. While they are waiting for the crime scene team to examine the rifle the investigators inside learned that President Kennedy has in fact been killed.

Alyea
We heard for the first time that the President is dead. We were standing there looking at the weapon that killed the President of the United States and that’s all we could see of it (rifle).

Narrator
After determining there were no prints on any of the exposed surfaces Crime Scene Investigator J.C. Day moves the rifle from it’s hiding place and hands it to Capt. Fritz.


 Thumb1:

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 26, 2022, 02:18:28 AM
For what it is worth….

From the TV show Caught on Film (COF) – “Infamous Guns” episode.
Tom Alyea was the guest for this first of three segments of the hour long show.
 
After finding the hidden rifle:

Narrator
10 minutes after finding the shells officers spot a rifle hidden beneath some shipping boxes.

Alyea
This is the first picture of the assassin’s rifle. At this time we did not know it was an assassin. (Rifle on floor with Capt. Fritz standing next to the rifle).

Narrator
Capt. Fritz decides to allow the crime scene investigation team to examine the rifle before removing it from its hiding place. While they are waiting for the crime scene team to examine the rifle the investigators inside learned that President Kennedy has in fact been killed.

Alyea
We heard for the first time that the President is dead. We were standing there looking at the weapon that killed the President of the United States and that’s all we could see of it (rifle). ]

Narrator
After determining there were no prints on any of the exposed surfaces Crime Scene Investigator J.C. Day moves the rifle from it’s hiding place and hands it to Capt. Fritz.

Thanks for posting that, James....

After finding the hidden rifle:  THE KEY WORD HERE IS "HIDDEN"

Narrator
10 minutes after finding the shells officers spot a rifle hidden beneath some shipping boxes.  "HIDDEN BENEATH SOME SHIPPING BOXES"

Alyea
This is the first picture of the assassin’s rifle. At this time we did not know it was an assassin. (Rifle on floor with Capt. Fritz standing next to the rifle). " RIFLE ON FLOOR"  NOT jammed between boxes ....
Narrator
Capt. Fritz decides to allow the crime scene investigation team to examine the rifle before removing it from its hiding place. While they are waiting for the crime scene team to examine the rifle the investigators inside learned that President Kennedy has in fact been killed.

Alyea
We heard for the first time that the President is dead. We were standing there looking at the weapon that killed the President of the United States and that’s all we could see of it (rifle).   Apparently Alyea is referring to a picture on the screnne, that we can't see, when he says "that's all we could see of it"   I believe that there was only a small portion of the butt of the rifle visible beneath the pallet of books.

Narrator
After determining there were no prints on any of the exposed surfaces Crime Scene Investigator J.C. Day moves the rifle from it’s hiding place and hands it to Capt. Fritz.
   REMOVES IT FROM IT'S HIDING PLACE

Notice that the in reference to the place where the rifle was found it was said to have been hidden....In it's HIDDING PLACE.

The official DPD in situ photos do not depict the rifle as HIDDEN.....In fact the official tale says that Lee Harrrrvey OSSSSSwald Boooo hisss simply leaned over the row of box and stuffed the rifle between the row of boxes.  The DPD photo is a fake.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: James Hackerott on July 26, 2022, 02:45:19 AM
Thanks for posting that, James....

After finding the hidden rifle:  THE KEY WORD HERE IS "HIDDEN"

Narrator
10 minutes after finding the shells officers spot a rifle hidden beneath some shipping boxes.  "HIDDEN BENEATH SOME SHIPPING BOXES"

Alyea
This is the first picture of the assassin’s rifle. At this time we did not know it was an assassin. (Rifle on floor with Capt. Fritz standing next to the rifle). " RIFLE ON FLOOR"  NOT jammed between boxes ....
Narrator
Capt. Fritz decides to allow the crime scene investigation team to examine the rifle before removing it from its hiding place. While they are waiting for the crime scene team to examine the rifle the investigators inside learned that President Kennedy has in fact been killed.

Alyea
We heard for the first time that the President is dead. We were standing there looking at the weapon that killed the President of the United States and that’s all we could see of it (rifle).   Apparently Alyea is referring to a picture on the screnne, that we can't see, when he says "that's all we could see of it"   I believe that there was only a small portion of the butt of the rifle visible beneath the pallet of books.

Narrator
After determining there were no prints on any of the exposed surfaces Crime Scene Investigator J.C. Day moves the rifle from it’s hiding place and hands it to Capt. Fritz.
   REMOVES IT FROM IT'S HIDING PLACE

Notice that the in reference to the place where the rifle was found it was said to have been hidden....In it's HIDDING PLACE.

The official DPD in situ photos do not depict the rifle as HIDDEN.....In fact the official tale says that Lee Harrrrvey OSSSSSwald Boooo hisss simply leaned over the row of box and stuffed the rifle between the row of boxes.  The DPD photo is a fake.
Here is a stacked image of 59 video frames that Alyea was discussing.  The frames were part of a clip of Fritz standing near the weapon, while he, or someone else, was shining a flashlight near his feet and rifle.

(https://i.imgur.com/b5iLFTm.png)
 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 26, 2022, 07:34:29 AM
gravity is the only force that causes it to fall out of the bottom of the magazine. And the clip appears to be relatively lightweight. Therefore the force of gravity wouldn't be very powerful.


Yes, the clip does simply fall out when the last round is stripped from the clip by the forward stroke of the bolt...

The clip was made of brass and the brass clips are actually heavier than the steel clips that we've seen drop out on the you tube videos.  I'm 100% certain that if that carcano had been fired from that 6th floor window the clip would have been right there on the floor beneath that window. I believe the yokel who dropped the live round into the chamber also placed the clip in the magazine.

Not necessarily. Clips can get slightly caught and stay in the rifle. Go to 3:10 here:


Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 26, 2022, 07:38:46 AM


I think that the sight of JFK's head exploding could have been enough of a shock (even to LHO) to make him just freeze in the middle of loading the next round. But, of course, anything we come up with is only conjecture.

Another, totally different, possibility is that LHO actually did complete the loading process of the next round and set the rifle down between the boxes. The first photos taken by the DPD reportedly show the rifle before anyone touched it. And the rifle can be seen in that photo upright. The Alyea film appears to show Day lifting the rifle from a laying down position. So it is conceivable that before Day lifted the rifle from the floor that either he or Fritz could have lifted the bolt handle into the up position by reaching between the boxes. I am not saying that that is what happened. Only that I think it is a possibility.

...or (as I said earlier) the bolt handle was knocked up when the rifle was dropped/thrust between the heavy boxes. I'm not saying that Oswald threw it down there (he was in the Domino room at the time).
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 26, 2022, 12:14:12 PM
Here is a stacked image of 59 video frames that Alyea was discussing.  The frames were part of a clip of Fritz standing near the weapon, while he, or someone else, was shining a flashlight near his feet and rifle.

(https://i.imgur.com/b5iLFTm.png)


Well done! The best image yet of the way it was found!
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 26, 2022, 12:36:35 PM
Not necessarily. Clips can get slightly caught and stay in the rifle. Go to 3:10 here:



I wonder if having the rifle aimed down at a substantial angle would affect it. Since gravity is the main force involved, I think that it probably would.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 26, 2022, 03:25:14 PM
...or (as I said earlier) the bolt handle was knocked up when the rifle was dropped/thrust between the heavy boxes. I'm not saying that Oswald threw it down there (he was in the Domino room at the time).

If you had a carcano , I'm sure that you'd drop the idea that the bolt was closed and latched but was "knocked up" when the rifle was thrust between the boxes..... the main reason that didn't happen is because the rifle wasn't thrust between any boxes.

It was found lying on it's side on the floor .....It was not jammed between boxes.  I doubt that the yokel who hid the rifle "dropped it" on the floor....He placed the rifle there and stacked the boxes of books around and over it.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 26, 2022, 03:33:46 PM
Not necessarily. Clips can get slightly caught and stay in the rifle. Go to 3:10 here:


If you had a carcano to experiment with, I'm sure that you'd change your mind about the clip being stuck in the magazine after the last round was stripped from the clip.  The steel clips do occasionally hang up in the magazine but the rifle was designed to use the brass clip and the brass clips do not stick in the magazine.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 26, 2022, 03:45:00 PM

Well done! The best image yet of the way it was found!

Study the movements of Fritz and Day.....  I believe Day arrived at the scene in the NW corner of the room before Fritz...and he ordered everybody away from the scene ( some of the cops had started to move the boxes that were around and over the rifle.)

I don't believe that Fritz was there until after Day and Studebaker had started taking photos of the scene. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 26, 2022, 04:01:01 PM

Well done! The best image yet of the way it was found!

Here's Roger Craig's description of the rifle, and the site where it was hidden....

the north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed kinda under-uh-or
up tight against ‘em-you know, where it would be hard to see. bud, of course,
both ends of the rows were closed off where you couldn’t see through ‘em. You
had to get up and look in ‘em.
Mr. BELIN. You are gesturing with your hand there-woultl you say that
the boxes, then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would call a
rectangular “O”, so to speak?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes, yes, uh-huh.

Mr. BEWN. And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, it-it was different heights. Sow. the part where I looked
in particularly was about-uh-oh, was about s-foot.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And you gestured there in such a way that you had to lean over and look
straight down? Would that be a fair statemeut of your gestures?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; yes. You had to lean over the boses and look down.
Mr. BELIN. All right.


Here's what Seymour Weitzman said....
ear section of the building, I would say the northwest corner, I was on the
floor looking under the flat
at the same time he was looking on the top side and
we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said, “There it is” and he
started hollering, “We got it.” It was covered with boxes. It was well protected as far as the naked eye because I would venture to say eight or nine of
us stumbled over that gun a couple times before we thoroughly searched the
building.

Mr. BALL. Did you touch it?
Mr. WEITZMAN. NO, sir; we made a man-tight barricade until the crime lab
came up and removed the gun itself.
Mr. BALL. The crime lab from the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. WEITZMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Lieutenant Day and Captain Fritz?
Mr. WEITZbfAN. I'm not sure what the lieutenant’s name was, but I remember
Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. Did YOU see Captain Fritz remove an

Here's Boone
Mr. BOONE. Well, I proceeded to the east end of the building, I guess, and
started working our way across the building to the west wall, looking in, under,
and around all the boxes and pallets, and what-have-you that were on the floor.
Looking for the weapon. And as I got to the west wall, there were a row of
windows there, and a slight space between some boxes and the wall. I squeezed
through them.
When I did-1 had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the
floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of
boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the
rifle was here.
Mr. BALL. What happened then?
Mr. BOONE. Some of the other oilicers came over to look at it. I told them
to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of some
of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time Captain Fritz and an
ID man came over. I believe the ID man’s name was Lieutenant Day-I am
not sure. They came over and the weapon was photographed as it lay. And
at that time Captain Fritz picked it up by the strap, and it was removed from
the place where it was.
Mr. BALL. You saw them take the photograph?
Mr. BOONE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were you alone at that time?
Mr. Booxz. There was an Otlicer Weitzman. I believe. He is a deputy
constable.
Mr. BALL. Where was the rifle located on the floor, general location?
Mr. Boox~. Well, it was almost-the stairwell is in the corner of the building,
something like this, and there is a wall coming up here, making one side of the
stairwell with the building acting as the other two sides. And from that,
it was almost directly in front or about 3 feet south, I guess, it would be, from
that partition wall that made up the stairwell.
Mr. BALL. The rifle was about 3 feet from the
Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir; behind a row of boxes. There was a row of boxes that
came across there. Then the rifle was behind that first row of boxes.
Mr. BALL. I show you 514. Is that the way it looked when you saw it?
Mr. BOONE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Is that the way it was when the picture was taken?
Mr. BOONE. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. BALL. This shows the rifle as you saw it, does it?
Mr. BOONE. That is right. Then you could kneel down over here and see
that it had a scope, a telescopic sight on it, by looking down underneath the
boxes;
Mr. BALL. Now, I show you 515. Does that look anything like the area
where you found the rifle?
Mr. BOONE. Yes; it did.
Mr. BALL. Will you put that down on the table so that everyone can see
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 26, 2022, 06:56:58 PM
If you had a carcano to experiment with, I'm sure that you'd change your mind about the clip being stuck in the magazine after the last round was stripped from the clip.  The steel clips do occasionally hang up in the magazine but the rifle was designed to use the brass clip and the brass clips do not stick in the magazine.

Yes but it does look like the rifle found didn't let go of clips too easily!

(https://i.ibb.co/9w7786s/Clip-showing.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 26, 2022, 07:27:10 PM
Yes but it does look like the rifle found didn't let go of clips too easily!

(https://i.ibb.co/9w7786s/Clip-showing.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

I've never said that there was no clip in the rifle when it was picked up from the floor and when Day carried it from the building....
What I said was the clip would have fell out IF that rifle had been fired behind that sixth floor window.   I've said that the Yokel who dropped the live round into the chamber also placed that brass clip in the magazine.....  He clearly didn't understand that the clip falls out when the last round is stripped from the clip....and therefore it should have been on the floor beneath the window.
There's not an iota of doubt in my mind that the clip was in the rifle's magazine when Lt Day was dusting it for prints.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 26, 2022, 07:31:44 PM
Cool.

Look at this photo of the Ozwald incriminating evidence. The spent cartridge on the left seems to have abrasions - caused by the elevator?

(https://i.ibb.co/Y0S8sQ6/Oswald-evidence.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tL6crKS)
(https://i.ibb.co/sP8xfHz/Oswald-evidence-zoom.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 26, 2022, 08:11:01 PM
Cool.

Look at this photo of the Ozwald incriminating evidence. The spent cartridge on the left seems to have abrasions - caused by the elevator?

(https://i.ibb.co/Y0S8sQ6/Oswald-evidence.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tL6crKS)
(https://i.ibb.co/sP8xfHz/Oswald-evidence-zoom.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)


If you look at the cutaway animation, it appears that the elevator contacts the cartridge in a location that is closer to the center of the cartridge.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Freeman on July 26, 2022, 08:22:42 PM
   I doubt that the yokel who hid the rifle "dropped it" on the floor....
I must have missed the evidence that the suspect rifle had been recently fired. Was there not a way that this could be done?
Also...in the video where the guy is firing the Carcano...along about 4:18---the cartridge hangs up.
I hate it when that happens.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 26, 2022, 09:10:15 PM
and Alyea's camera caught the brass clip in the magazine on film.

That’s very debatable.

Quote
The fact that the clip was still in the rifle raises more questions.   We know that the official tale says that the live round was the last round in the clip and it was in the chamber.... And since that clip drops out of the magazine when the last round is stripped from the clip by the forward stroke of the bolt .....then that clip should have been on the floor in the "Sniper's Nest".

The official tale also says that the clip in this rifle had a tendency to get stuck rather than dropping out.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 26, 2022, 10:25:54 PM

 Alyea's camera caught the brass clip in the magazine on film.

That’s very debatable.

The official tale also says that the clip in this rifle had a tendency to get stuck rather than dropping out.


It really isn't debatable ...because we have photos of Lt Day carrying the carcano out of the TSBD and the clip is quite visible.....So it must have been in the magazine as Day dusted the rifle for prints.

Perhaps James Hackerott can work with the Alyea film of Day dusting the carcano in looking for prints and then post one of his good photos...



Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 26, 2022, 10:26:40 PM

If you look at the cutaway animation, it appears that the elevator contacts the cartridge in a location that is closer to the center of the cartridge.

Not so sure. The wavy extremity of the elevator arm rubs up towards the base of the cartridge (rear of centre anyway) - after all, that is but an animation. I could be onto something! There is our last bullet in the clip?

(https://i.ibb.co/PcLyP16/elevator.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 26, 2022, 10:33:56 PM
Not so sure. The wavy extremity of the elevator arm rubs up towards the base of the cartridge (rear of centre anyway) - after all, that is but an animation. I could be onto something! There is our last bullet in the clip?

(https://i.ibb.co/PcLyP16/elevator.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

This isn't a picture of the clip all the way down and latched, .... or if the clip is down and latched then the clip is only about half full.....
(https://i.ibb.co/PcLyP16/elevator.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

The dent was not necessarily caused by an impact.... LOOK at the cutaway and notice that the bottom of the bottom cartridge is in contact with the elevator..... A spent shell in the bottom position could be easily dented by the elevator. when the clip is pushed down into the magazine

(https://i.vgy.me/R23UED.jpg)


(https://i.vgy.me/R23UED.jpg)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 26, 2022, 10:50:12 PM
It really isn't debatable ...because we have photos of Lt Day carrying the carcano out of the TSBD and the clip is quite visible.....So it must have been in the magazine as Day dusted the rifle for prints.

Unless it just got stuck in there before they carried it out.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 26, 2022, 10:55:24 PM

It really isn't debatable ...because we have photos of Lt Day carrying the carcano out of the TSBD and the clip is quite visible.....So it must have been in the magazine as Day dusted the rifle for prints.

Perhaps James Hackerott can work with the Alyea film and post one of his good photos...

Perhaps James Hackerott can work with the Alyea film and post one of his good photos...

Would this be like the "good photo" of the rifle found in the upright position that you still continue to deny?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 27, 2022, 12:18:16 AM
Unless it just got stuck in there before they carried it out.

Yes that's true....but I don't believe that Day knew enough about the carcano to know that it was a clip fed action....( many bolt action rifle were. are box magazines in which the cartridges are loaded into the magazine and no clip is needed.)

You may have seen his scribbled notes where he refers to the carcano as a LEVER ACTION rifle....The ignoramus didn't know that it was a bolt action rifle.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 27, 2022, 12:30:35 AM
Perhaps James Hackerott can work with the Alyea film and post one of his good photos...

Would this be like the "good photo" of the rifle found in the upright position that you still continue to deny?

Mr Omeara....Since I'm 100% certain that the DPD staged the in situ photo that shows the rifle upright and jammed between boxes, i'm sure you can visulize that they created that photo at the same time that they created the fake insitu photo.   

Although I'm not absolutely sure, I doubt that Captain fritz stood in that "hole" in the boxes before Lt Day picked up the rifle from the floor.... because many of the boxes would have had to have been moved to allow him access to that spot.   And everybody who was there and testified swore that no boxes were moved prior to Lt Day picking up the rifle. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: James Hackerott on July 27, 2022, 01:02:04 AM

It really isn't debatable ...because we have photos of Lt Day carrying the carcano out of the TSBD and the clip is quite visible.....So it must have been in the magazine as Day dusted the rifle for prints.

Perhaps James Hackerott can work with the Alyea film of Day dusting the carcano in looking for prints and then post one of his good photos...
I found 29 frames suitable for stacking and enhancement. There is a highlight flush where the clip should exit the rifle. Your expertise would know if there is some internal part that could be visible at the rifles orientation to the camera.
(https://i.imgur.com/3AWIiXG.png)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 27, 2022, 01:03:18 AM
I must have missed the evidence that the suspect rifle had been recently fired. Was there not a way that this could be done?
Also...in the video where the guy is firing the Carcano...along about 4:18---the cartridge hangs up.
I hate it when that happens.

I must have missed the evidence that the suspect rifle had been recently fired.

Nobody ever reported seeing Day or Fritz giving the rifle the old olfactory  test.   Very simple...Just sniff the barrel or action to know if the weapon has been recently fired.  It's an elementary quick and easy way to determine if a gun has been fired recently.

Even if they had been negligent in performing this basic test , if that rifle had been fired when Fritz "uncorked" the chamber by removing the live round  He certainly would have noticed the stink from the .,burned gun powder....and anybody close by would also probably have smelled the burned powder....But nobody reported that smell.....

Just another indication that the rifle was not fired that day.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 27, 2022, 01:12:01 AM
I found 29 frames suitable for stacking and enhancement. There is a highlight flush where the clip should exit the rifle. Your expertise would know if there is some internal part that could be visible at the rifles orientation to the camera.
(https://i.imgur.com/3AWIiXG.png)

Thanks for your help Mr Hackerott .... And I would say that the picture probably does show the light colored (brass) clip in the magazine, but this picture is inconclusive...and not clear enough to wager the plow mule on.

A couple of years ago a man who was a LNer posted a good picture from the Alyea film but a person has to know what he's looking at to accept the photo actually shows that brass clip in the aperture of the magazine.

I hope you will try again...but perhaps that's as good as we are going to get.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 27, 2022, 10:23:40 AM
Mr Omeara....Since I'm 100% certain that the DPD staged the in situ photo that shows the rifle upright and jammed between boxes, i'm sure you can visulize that they created that photo at the same time that they created the fake insitu photo. 

You are 100%wrong about this. The Alyea film is actual film footage of the moments after the initial discovery of the rifle. According to Tom Alyea:

"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle."


Quote
Although I'm not absolutely sure, I doubt that Captain fritz stood in that "hole" in the boxes before Lt Day picked up the rifle from the floor.... because many of the boxes would have had to have been moved to allow him access to that spot.   And everybody who was there and testified swore that no boxes were moved prior to Lt Day picking up the rifle.

You "doubt that Captain fritz stood in that "hole" in the boxes before Lt Day picked up the rifle"?
So, in your imagination, Alyea filmed Day picking up the rifle, both Day and Fritz examining the rifle, Day dusting the rifle for fingerprints AFTER WHICH, Alyea filmed Fritz stepping into the "enclosure" which shows the rifle back on the floor in the upright position?
Have a think about that Walt.

"...everybody who was there and testified swore that no boxes were moved prior to Lt Day picking up the rifle."

You have made this up.

The Alyea footage is the best evidence we have regarding the initial position of the rifle between the boxes at the time of it's discovery. Dismissing it because you have a different theory isn't very credible. The rifle was discovered in an upright position, this was filmed by Tom Alyea, photographed by Day and Studebaker and testified to by Day, Craig and others.


Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 27, 2022, 01:54:11 PM
Mr. DAY. The rifle was resting on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. What else did you do in connection with the rifle at that particular time?
Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

 It makes good sense to me that one of the first things that should be done when picking up a firearm is to see if it is loaded. Based on that basic safety precaution, that most of us are taught to always do, and Day’s bolded testimony above which appears to indicated that they did indeed do just that. It appears to me (in the Alyea video) that the rifle was held by Day with the muzzle pointing towards the floor while Fritz opened the bolt. If that is indeed what happened, then the position of the bolt when the rifle was found can only be seen during the brief period immediately after Day picks it up off the floor. And after I received and reviewed a copy of the Lost Tapes DVD that James Hackerott used in his work, I have changed my opinion again regarding the position of the bolt. Instead of just one static image in which camera angle relative to the rifle angle can play tricks on our perception, I have now seen clearer images of all the frames in which the bolt position is visible. And now I believe that the bolt handle is not all the way up as far as it can go. Instead, it appears to me that the bolt handle is only part-way up from the full down position. And therefore the bolt must have been fully closed. Additionally, with the rifle muzzle pointing down, gravity would help hold a cartridge in the barrel. And the cartridge would not fall to the floor without the extractor having had pulled it out of the barrel first.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 27, 2022, 03:41:20 PM
You are 100%wrong about this. The Alyea film is actual film footage of the moments after the initial discovery of the rifle. According to Tom Alyea:

"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle."


You "doubt that Captain fritz stood in that "hole" in the boxes before Lt Day picked up the rifle"?
So, in your imagination, Alyea filmed Day picking up the rifle, both Day and Fritz examining the rifle, Day dusting the rifle for fingerprints AFTER WHICH, Alyea filmed Fritz stepping into the "enclosure" which shows the rifle back on the floor in the upright position?
Have a think about that Walt.

"...everybody who was there and testified swore that no boxes were moved prior to Lt Day picking up the rifle."

You have made this up.

The Alyea footage is the best evidence we have regarding the initial position of the rifle between the boxes at the time of it's discovery. Dismissing it because you have a different theory isn't very credible. The rifle was discovered in an upright position, this was filmed by Tom Alyea, photographed by Day and Studebaker and testified to by Day, Craig and others.

Th

Mr O'meara....I certainly agree that the Alyea footage is the best evidence we have...But the photos of the rifle in situ and Fritz standing in the hole ae NOT from the Alyea film.

There are so many aspects to be debated that I hate to dive into this quagmire.   But let's start with the feasibility of jamming that carcano between boxes as it is seen in the official DPD in situ photo....

Do you believe that the skinny ( 131 lbs) Lee Oswald could grab that 9 pond rifle by the butt end of the stock and hold the rifle horizontal as he jammed the rifle between the boxes?   

Next Question... Do you believe that it's possible to insert that 40 inch long rifle into the east west space between the boxes ?
That distance as seen in the photo of Fritz standing in the hole appears to be about 24 inches.....How could Lee Oswald have held that 40 inch long rifle by the butt and inserted it into an space that is about 2 feet .??
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 27, 2022, 04:53:56 PM


I think that the sight of JFK's head exploding could have been enough of a shock (even to LHO) to make him just freeze in the middle of loading the next round. But, of course, anything we come up with is only conjecture.

Another, totally different, possibility is that LHO actually did complete the loading process of the next round and set the rifle down between the boxes. The first photos taken by the DPD reportedly show the rifle before anyone touched it. And the rifle can be seen in that photo upright. The Alyea film appears to show Day lifting the rifle from a laying down position. So it is conceivable that before Day lifted the rifle from the floor that either he or Fritz could have lifted the bolt handle into the up position by reaching between the boxes. I am not saying that that is what happened. Only that I think it is a possibility.

I think that the sight of JFK's head exploding could have been enough of a shock (even to LHO) to make him just freeze in the middle of loading the next round. But, of course, anything we come up with is only conjecture.

I believe that if you think about this, you'll abandon the idea that Lee stopped loading that fourth round  because he saw JFK head explode.  He would have had to have superhuman reflexes to respond as you suggest.

Another, totally different, possibility is that LHO actually did complete the loading process of the next round and set the rifle down between the boxes. The first photos taken by the DPD reportedly show the rifle before anyone touched it. And the rifle can be seen in that photo upright. The Alyea film appears to show Day lifting the rifle from a laying down position. So it is conceivable that before Day lifted the rifle from the floor that either he or Fritz could have lifted the bolt handle into the up position by reaching between the boxes.


The first photos taken by the DPD reportedly show the rifle before anyone touched it. And the rifle can be seen in that photo upright.

I don't believe the photos that show the rifle in the upright position are authentic photos of the rifle as it was found...

Boone said that he moved a box (that served as the "roof " of the crevasse) in which the rifle lay.   He said that he shine his flashlight down and saw a bit of the stock of the rifle laying in the floor.   And Seymour Weitzman was on the floor looking west toward where Boone was standing and he saw the rifle ON THE FLOOR.  Weitzman could not have seen the rifle if it had been jammed between the boxes as it is shown in the official DPD photo.   




Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 27, 2022, 05:16:52 PM
This isn't a picture of the clip all the way down and latched, .... or if the clip is down and latched then the clip is only about half full.....
The dent was not necessarily caused by an impact.... LOOK at the cutaway and notice that the bottom of the bottom cartridge is in contact with the elevator..... A spent shell in the bottom position could be easily dented by the elevator. when the clip is pushed down into the magazine

I'm not talking about the dent, I'm talking about the abrasion scratches on the spent cartridge that we see in the photo I posted of the Oswald pieces of evidence.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 27, 2022, 05:22:08 PM
You are 100%wrong about this. The Alyea film is actual film footage of the moments after the initial discovery of the rifle. According to Tom Alyea:

"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle."


You "doubt that Captain fritz stood in that "hole" in the boxes before Lt Day picked up the rifle"?
So, in your imagination, Alyea filmed Day picking up the rifle, both Day and Fritz examining the rifle, Day dusting the rifle for fingerprints AFTER WHICH, Alyea filmed Fritz stepping into the "enclosure" which shows the rifle back on the floor in the upright position?
Have a think about that Walt.

"...everybody who was there and testified swore that no boxes were moved prior to Lt Day picking up the rifle."

You have made this up.

The Alyea footage is the best evidence we have regarding the initial position of the rifle between the boxes at the time of it's discovery. Dismissing it because you have a different theory isn't very credible. The rifle was discovered in an upright position, this was filmed by Tom Alyea, photographed by Day and Studebaker and testified to by Day, Craig and others.

Th

So, in your imagination, Alyea filmed Day picking up the rifle, both Day and Fritz examining the rifle, Day dusting the rifle for fingerprints AFTER WHICH, Alyea filmed Fritz stepping into the "enclosure" which shows the rifle back on the floor in the upright position?

Dan, if you look at the official DPD in situ photo....and study the lighting it appears that the photo was taken at night with no bright sunlight shining through the window that was only a couple of feet away.  I believe the original photo revealed the rifle laying on the floor on it's side, and the cops realized that Lee couldn't possibly have dashed by and placed that rifle on the floor and then stacked the boxes around and over it.  They came to this realization after they learned that officer Baker had talked to Lee who was drinking a coke, in the 2nd floor lunchroom less than two minutes after the shots were fired.   Thus they were forced to create a photo of the rifle in a position that lent credence to their tale.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 27, 2022, 05:58:05 PM
You are 100%wrong about this. The Alyea film is actual film footage of the moments after the initial discovery of the rifle. According to Tom Alyea:

"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle."


You "doubt that Captain fritz stood in that "hole" in the boxes before Lt Day picked up the rifle"?
So, in your imagination, Alyea filmed Day picking up the rifle, both Day and Fritz examining the rifle, Day dusting the rifle for fingerprints AFTER WHICH, Alyea filmed Fritz stepping into the "enclosure" which shows the rifle back on the floor in the upright position?
Have a think about that Walt.

"...everybody who was there and testified swore that no boxes were moved prior to Lt Day picking up the rifle."

You have made this up.

The Alyea footage is the best evidence we have regarding the initial position of the rifle between the boxes at the time of it's discovery. Dismissing it because you have a different theory isn't very credible. The rifle was discovered in an upright position, this was filmed by Tom Alyea, photographed by Day and Studebaker and testified to by Day, Craig and others.

Th

Does Roger Craig's description of the site match the photo of Fritz standing in the hole?

Here's Roger Craig's description of the rifle, and the site where it was hidden....

the north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed kinda under-uh-or
up tight against ‘em-you know, where it would be hard to see. bud, of course,
both ends of the rows were closed off where you couldn’t see through ‘em. You
had to get up and look in ‘em.
Mr. BELIN. You are gesturing with your hand there-woultl you say that
the boxes, then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would call a
rectangular “O”, so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes, yes, uh-huh.
Mr. BEWN. And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, it-it was different heights. Sow. the part where I looked
in particularly was about-uh-oh, was about s-foot.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And you gestured there in such a way that you had to lean over and look
straight down? Would that be a fair statemeut of your gestures?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; yes. You had to lean over the boses and look down.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 27, 2022, 10:19:16 PM
I'm not talking about the dent, I'm talking about the abrasion scratches on the spent cartridge that we see in the photo I posted of the Oswald pieces of evidence.

My eyes aren't good enough to see any "abrasion scratches" on the shells.....Mr Hackerott , please come in here.....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: James Hackerott on July 27, 2022, 11:04:58 PM
My eyes aren't good enough to see any "abrasion scratches" on the shells.....Mr Hackerott , please come in here.....
I assume these markings are the questioned "abrasion scratches".
(https://i.imgur.com/mZLsaUs.jpg)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 28, 2022, 01:52:27 AM
Mr O'meara....I certainly agree that the Alyea footage is the best evidence we have...But the photos of the rifle in situ and Fritz standing in the hole ae NOT from the Alyea film.

This is unbelievable. The picture James posted, of Fritz standing in the hole, is taken from the Alyea footage I posted. See below:


Please just watch this compilation which starts off with Fritz standing in the hole. It is footage of the rifle in an upright position before being removed by Day. And that should be the end of that particular discussion. Obviously the pics taken by Day and Studebaker of the rifle position are not part of the Alyea footage, but they do show the rifle in exactly the same position Alyea filmed it in.

Quote
There are so many aspects to be debated that I hate to dive into this quagmire.   But let's start with the feasibility of jamming that carcano between boxes as it is seen in the official DPD in situ photo....

Do you believe that the skinny ( 131 lbs) Lee Oswald could grab that 9 pond rifle by the butt end of the stock and hold the rifle horizontal as he jammed the rifle between the boxes?   

Next Question... Do you believe that it's possible to insert that 40 inch long rifle into the east west space between the boxes ?
That distance as seen in the photo of Fritz standing in the hole appears to be about 24 inches.....How could Lee Oswald have held that 40 inch long rifle by the butt and inserted it into an space that is about 2 feet .??

None of this has anything to do with the discussion at hand so nobody needs to be diving into this quagmire.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 28, 2022, 02:05:36 AM
This is an animated GIF (in very slow motion) of frames from The Lost JFK Tapes showing Day holding the rifle up for Fritz immediately after lifting it from the floor. It appears to me, based on the testimony of both Day and Fritz that Fritz is either ejecting the cartridge or is almost to the point of ejecting it.

(https://i.vgy.me/mtNwYv.gif)

Near the end, it appears that both Day and Fritz are looking down towards the floor. Do you believe that they might be looking at the ejected cartridge?


Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 28, 2022, 02:32:27 AM
This is unbelievable. The picture James posted, of Fritz standing in the hole, is taken from the Alyea footage I posted. See below:


Please just watch this compilation which starts off with Fritz standing in the hole. It is footage of the rifle in an upright position before being removed by Day. And that should be the end of that particular discussion. Obviously the pics taken by Day and Studebaker of the rifle position are not part of the Alyea footage, but they do show the rifle in exactly the same position Alyea filmed it in.

None of this has anything to do with the discussion at hand so nobody needs to be diving into this quagmire.

I'm not convinced that the film we see was all exposed that afternoon....I'll confess that I'm confused about the footage.... It doesn't make sense to me....  I believe that the DPD were a big part of the cover up and the framing and murder of Lee Oswald, so I don't trust anything that they present.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: James Hackerott on July 28, 2022, 02:37:57 AM
This is an animated GIF (in very slow motion) of frames from The Lost JFK Tapes showing Day holding the rifle up for Fritz immediately after lifting it from the floor. It appears to me, based on the testimony of both Day and Fritz that Fritz is either ejecting the cartridge or is almost to the point of ejecting it.

(https://i.vgy.me/mtNwYv.gif)

Near the end, it appears that both Day and Fritz are looking down towards the floor. Do you believe that they might be looking at the ejected cartridge?
Thumb1:
5 second rule!
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 28, 2022, 02:47:10 AM
This is an animated GIF (in very slow motion) of frames from The Lost JFK Tapes showing Day holding the rifle up for Fritz immediately after lifting it from the floor. It appears to me, based on the testimony of both Day and Fritz that Fritz is either ejecting the cartridge or is almost to the point of ejecting it.

(https://i.vgy.me/mtNwYv.gif)

Near the end, it appears that both Day and Fritz are looking down towards the floor. Do you believe that they might be looking at the ejected cartridge?

This is very good footage  ....The west elevator gate can be seen behind Fritz ....So the camera is pointing NE ...Fritz seems to be standing in the E/W aisle that lead to the stairs. But in other footage the camera is pointing east and Fritz seems to be in a different location. He appears to be standing in the spot where Seymour Weitzman was when he spotted the rifle ON THE FLOOR .

How the hell could Wetzman have seen the rifle on the floor if it was jammed between the boxes of books???
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 28, 2022, 08:21:23 AM
I assume these markings are the questioned "abrasion scratches".
(https://i.imgur.com/mZLsaUs.jpg)

Thanks James. I hadn't noticed the abrasion on the right-hand cartridge which is more central. Cartridge left or right could be candidates for being the last round in the clip - proving that the unspent round was dropped in from the top.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 28, 2022, 09:15:50 AM
I'm not convinced that the film we see was all exposed that afternoon....I'll confess that I'm confused about the footage.... It doesn't make sense to me....  I believe that the DPD were a big part of the cover up and the framing and murder of Lee Oswald, so I don't trust anything that they present.

I don't trust anything that they present.

The DPD aren't "presenting" this film evidence.
Tom Alyea is, and he seems to have the same view of the DPD you do, only his opinion is formed by watching them up close.
Not accepting what is shown in the Alyea footage because you don't like the DPD does not make any sense.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 28, 2022, 11:38:48 AM
I assume these markings are the questioned "abrasion scratches".
(https://i.imgur.com/mZLsaUs.jpg)


Nice work James! I can’t say for sure, but the one on the camera left looks like it may be the one with the dent near the small end. Is this just my imagination? Can anyone else see this?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 28, 2022, 12:03:35 PM
This is very good footage  ....The west elevator gate can be seen behind Fritz ....So the camera is pointing NE ...Fritz seems to be standing in the E/W aisle that lead to the stairs. But in other footage the camera is pointing east and Fritz seems to be in a different location. He appears to be standing in the spot where Seymour Weitzman was when he spotted the rifle ON THE FLOOR .

How the hell could Wetzman have seen the rifle on the floor if it was jammed between the boxes of books???

Yes, the Lost JFK Tapes DVD is some good quality stuff. There is also a column between Fritz and the west elevator gate. There is a row of boxes stacked up to that column. So, it appears to me that Fritz is amongst the boxes. And we can see that Alyea is shifting during this segment to try to get a better view over Day’s right shoulder and to the left of what I assume is Studebaker’s left knee. Studebaker appears to still be on top of the stack of boxes where he took photo(s). And, yes, the next film segment appears to be taken from a different location. In it Day is examining the rifle with Fritz and his hanky in the background.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 28, 2022, 12:19:00 PM
Thanks James. I hadn't noticed the abrasion on the right-hand cartridge which is more central. Cartridge left or right could be candidates for being the last round in the clip - proving that the unspent round was dropped in from the top.


It would be impossible for both of them to be the last one in the clip. Also, those abrasions do not appear to be what I would expect (location and shape and severity) if made from contact with the elevator.  So, I think another possibility should be explored.

Another possibility, that seems more likely to me, is that during transportation from New Orleans to the Paine’s garage, the clip might not have been inside the magazine of the rifle. This would be one of the basic safety precautions that most of us are taught regarding firearms. And since the sides of the clip are open, if something relatively hard was up against the clip (say packed tightly inside one of the duffle bags) it and the vibrations of the trip, etc. could make the type of abrasions that we see on two of the cartridges. The very top one would be protected by the top portion of the clip and therefore would not get the same abrasions.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 28, 2022, 12:36:31 PM

It would be impossible for both of them to be the last one in the clip.
I'm aware of that, which is why I said that the two were "candidates".
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 28, 2022, 03:19:17 PM

It would be impossible for both of them to be the last one in the clip. Also, those abrasions do not appear to be what I would expect (location and shape and severity) if made from contact with the elevator.  So, I think another possibility should be explored.

Another possibility, that seems more likely to me, is that during transportation from New Orleans to the Paine’s garage, the clip might not have been inside the magazine of the rifle. This would be one of the basic safety precautions that most of us are taught regarding firearms. And since the sides of the clip are open, if something relatively hard was up against the clip (say packed tightly inside one of the duffle bags) it and the vibrations of the trip, etc. could make the type of abrasions that we see on two of the cartridges. The very top one would be protected by the top portion of the clip and therefore would not get the same abrasions.

It would be impossible for both of them to be the last one in the clip.

No, it's not impossible....It seems impossible to you because you believe that those shells were fired that day.   What the abrasions tell us that both shells were the bottom shell when they were fired on the rifle range, and then picked up and possibly used as filler in a clip for practice with the rifle.....so they could have been the bottom  shell in a practice clip.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 28, 2022, 06:10:20 PM
It would be impossible for both of them to be the last one in the clip.

No, it's not impossible....It seems impossible to you because you believe that those shells were fired that day.   What the abrasions tell us that both shells were the bottom shell when they were fired on the rifle range, and then picked up and possibly used as filler in a clip for practice with the rifle.....so they could have been the bottom  shell in a practice clip.

Agreed.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 28, 2022, 06:55:54 PM
It would be impossible for both of them to be the last one in the clip.

No, it's not impossible....It seems impossible to you because you believe that those shells were fired that day.   What the abrasions tell us that both shells were the bottom shell when they were fired on the rifle range, and then picked up and possibly used as filler in a clip for practice with the rifle.....so they could have been the bottom  shell in a practice clip.

The only thing is - the conspirators (who had intelligently and meticulously planned everything in order to frame Ozwald) would HARDLY have left an unfired rifle in the TSBD. A sniff test would instantly prove that the gun hadn't been fired. They couldn't have known that there would be no sniff test.
So, there are many possibilities:

1. The rifle had been fired - but the guys forgot to do a sniff test (unlikely)

2. The gun hadn't been fired - but the guys forgot to do a sniff test (unlikely)

3. There was a sniff test which detected gunpowder odor but the guys higher up later needed to give the world a lone assassin and it was scratched off the record.

4. Certain officials of the DPD were part of the conspiracy from the outset (which I doubt very much). They faked or didn't do a sniff test.



Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 28, 2022, 08:26:05 PM
The only thing is - the conspirators (who had intelligently and meticulously planned everything in order to frame Ozwald) would HARDLY have left an unfired rifle in the TSBD. A sniff test would instantly prove that the gun hadn't been fired. They couldn't have known that there would be no sniff test.
So, there are many possibilities:

1. The rifle had been fired - but the guys forgot to do a sniff test (unlikely)

2. The gun hadn't been fired - but the guys forgot to do a sniff test (unlikely)

3. There was a sniff test which detected gunpowder odor but the guys higher up later needed to give the world a lone assassin and it was scratched off the record.

4. Certain officials of the DPD were part of the conspiracy from the outset (which I doubt very much). They faked or didn't do a sniff test.

Certain officials ( Captain Fritz )of the DPD were part of the conspiracy from the outset ......
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 28, 2022, 08:38:33 PM
Certain officials ( Captain Fritz )of the DPD were part of the conspiracy from the outset ......

Is there a thread here all about that proposition?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 28, 2022, 10:44:16 PM
Is there a thread here all about that proposition?

Is there a thread here all about that proposition?

No, I don't think so....Very few people want to believe that a police force could be that corrupt....  ( And it was only a select few who were in position to control....)

You certainly won't find a LNer who will accept that the the  people in power in LBJ country could have been key conspirators. I strongly suspect that Mr Hunt had the money to use where it was needed.....  And Henry Wade was near the top of the command....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 28, 2022, 11:43:40 PM
Here is an animated GIF of Day lifting the rifle up off the floor. These frames are taken from The Lost JFK Tapes DVD. They are some of the clearest images that I have seen. Sadly, the film sequence starts after Day already has the rifle up a significant distance from the floor. So, we do not get to see it laying flat like one of the other videos posted earlier in this thread appears to show.


(https://i.vgy.me/BbqdfM.gif)



As I stated earlier in this thread, I now believe that the bolt is not in the fully up position. This is apparent to me due to seeing these clearer images depicting the rifle in motion. Take a look at the distance between the bolt handle knob and the scope. I will try to get some other image to compare this distance with. Perhaps the video of the blabbermouth demonstrating an identical model of the rifle with an identical scope will help in this regard. Please feel free to voice your opinions. Thanks!
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 29, 2022, 01:14:27 AM
Here is an animated GIF of Day lifting the rifle up off the floor. These frames are taken from The Lost JFK Tapes DVD. They are some of the clearest images that I have seen. Sadly, the film sequence starts after Day already has the rifle up a significant distance from the floor. So, we do not get to see it laying flat like one of the other videos posted earlier in this thread appears to show.


(https://i.vgy.me/BbqdfM.gif)



As I stated earlier in this thread, I now believe that the bolt is not in the fully up position. This is apparent to me due to seeing these clearer images depicting the rifle in motion. Take a look at the distance between the bolt handle knob and the scope. I will try to get some other image to compare this distance with. Perhaps the video of the blabbermouth demonstrating an identical model of the rifle with an identical scope will help in this regard. Please feel free to voice your opinions. Thanks!

The bolt handle appears to be in the full up position.   Using the butt plate as reference, The bolt handle is fully up. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: James Hackerott on July 29, 2022, 01:51:17 AM
Here is an animated GIF of Day lifting the rifle up off the floor. These frames are taken from The Lost JFK Tapes DVD. They are some of the clearest images that I have seen. Sadly, the film sequence starts after Day already has the rifle up a significant distance from the floor. So, we do not get to see it laying flat like one of the other videos posted earlier in this thread appears to show.


(https://i.vgy.me/BbqdfM.gif)



As I stated earlier in this thread, I now believe that the bolt is not in the fully up position. This is apparent to me due to seeing these clearer images depicting the rifle in motion. Take a look at the distance between the bolt handle knob and the scope. I will try to get some other image to compare this distance with. Perhaps the video of the blabbermouth demonstrating an identical model of the rifle with an identical scope will help in this regard. Please feel free to voice your opinions. Thanks!
Great animation Charles. I think you will like that DVD. I tried last night to make a 3D image (cyan/red anaglyph, not model) but still could not be sure of the amount of rotation of the handle. This looks like a challenging 3D model project, but beyond my abilities.

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 29, 2022, 05:11:25 AM
Here is an animated GIF of Day lifting the rifle up off the floor. These frames are taken from The Lost JFK Tapes DVD. They are some of the clearest images that I have seen. Sadly, the film sequence starts after Day already has the rifle up a significant distance from the floor. So, we do not get to see it laying flat like one of the other videos posted earlier in this thread appears to show.


(https://i.vgy.me/BbqdfM.gif)



As I stated earlier in this thread, I now believe that the bolt is not in the fully up position. This is apparent to me due to seeing these clearer images depicting the rifle in motion. Take a look at the distance between the bolt handle knob and the scope. I will try to get some other image to compare this distance with. Perhaps the video of the blabbermouth demonstrating an identical model of the rifle with an identical scope will help in this regard. Please feel free to voice your opinions. Thanks!


I posted this image earlier in the thread, it shows that the safety is not quite aligned with the slot it is supposed to fit in to meaning the bolt handle must be up in the "fully up" position.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bYRV33NW/Bolt-position-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The images of Day picking the rifle up in no way demonstrates the bolt handle is not fully up, if anything it's quite the reverse.
The bolt handle is clearly sticking up, there can be no doubt about that. That the safety is not aligned with its slot means the bolt handle is fully up and that the bolt is not fully forward.
If, after the last shot, the bolt is pushed forward in the usual quick and fluid fashion, the bolt would be fully forward so the bolt handle would have no problem latching downwards with the bolt handle fitting snugly against the body of the rifle.
The best explanation for the position of the bolt in the Alyea footage is that the bolt is jammed. What would cause this?
Walt's explanation, that the ejector has not properly engaged with the bullet and is jammed up against it, seems most plausible. This would account for the very small misalignment.
But what would cause the ejector not to engage with the bullet? Normal use?
Or manually inserting a single bullet into the chamber?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 29, 2022, 11:57:24 AM
The bolt handle appears to be in the full up position.   Using the butt plate as reference, The bolt handle is fully up.

Thanks for the input.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 29, 2022, 12:07:18 PM
Great animation Charles. I think you will like that DVD. I tried last night to make a 3D image (cyan/red anaglyph, not model) but still could not be sure of the amount of rotation of the handle. This looks like a challenging 3D model project, but beyond my abilities.


Thanks James, I do like the DVD. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Yes, the angles involved make this very challenging. The handle is clearly not fully latched (in the down position) as it appeared to me earlier in one of the images. But is it fully up as far as it can go? After looking at it again with “fresh eyes”, it appears to me to be close to fully up. And, if it is part-way down, I doubt that we would be able to discern such a small difference. Even with an actual identical rifle simulating the angles involved.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 29, 2022, 12:26:03 PM

I posted this image earlier in the thread, it shows that the safety is not quite aligned with the slot it is supposed to fit in to meaning the bolt handle must be up in the "fully up" position.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bYRV33NW/Bolt-position-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The images of Day picking the rifle up in no way demonstrates the bolt handle is not fully up, if anything it's quite the reverse.
The bolt handle is clearly sticking up, there can be no doubt about that. That the safety is not aligned with its slot means the bolt handle is fully up and that the bolt is not fully forward.
If, after the last shot, the bolt is pushed forward in the usual quick and fluid fashion, the bolt would be fully forward so the bolt handle would have no problem latching downwards with the bolt handle fitting snugly against the body of the rifle.
The best explanation for the position of the bolt in the Alyea footage is that the bolt is jammed. What would cause this?
Walt's explanation, that the ejector has not properly engaged with the bullet and is jammed up against it, seems most plausible. This would account for the very small misalignment.
But what would cause the ejector not to engage with the bullet? Normal use?
Or manually inserting a single bullet into the chamber?


I posted this image earlier in the thread, it shows that the safety is not quite aligned with the slot it is supposed to fit in to meaning the bolt handle must be up in the "fully up" position.


That image appears to me to be made after Fritz ejected the cartridge. So, it appears to me to be irrelevant. Also, if it were shown to be relevant, if the camera isn’t at a perfect 90-degree angle and aligned perfectly with the safety, then the angle involved will affect how the alignment with the wooden slot appears. This is because the wooden slot is closer to the camera than the metal safety.


The best explanation for the position of the bolt in the Alyea footage is that the bolt is jammed.

No it is not. There could be several other better explanations, including that it wasn’t pushed down by the gunman, that it was pushed upwards when lowered in between the boxes, that Day pushed it up while examining the knob for prints before he lifted the rifle off the floor, etc.. Also, if Walt’s theory were true, gravity (with the muzzle is pointing toward the floor) and friction would have held the cartridge in the barrel when Fritz pulled the bolt back. Therefore it would not have fallen to the floor.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 29, 2022, 01:38:14 PM
Here is an image from blabbermouth's video that is taken from a spot that is relatively close to being straight inline with the barrel. I have drawn some lines depicting the angle (~30-degrees) of the bolt handle above horizontal (note the rifle is about 2-degrees out of horizontal which I have accounted for). Also two lines that indicate the distance (?) between the knob of the handle and the scope. Compare this to the Alyea film sequence of Day lifting the rifle off the floor. I included the last frame in which the bolt handle is visible. I think this may be the best angle for comparison.


(https://i.vgy.me/I7hObV.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/9GWZdX.png)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 29, 2022, 03:27:16 PM

I posted this image earlier in the thread, it shows that the safety is not quite aligned with the slot it is supposed to fit in to meaning the bolt handle must be up in the "fully up" position.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bYRV33NW/Bolt-position-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The images of Day picking the rifle up in no way demonstrates the bolt handle is not fully up, if anything it's quite the reverse.
The bolt handle is clearly sticking up, there can be no doubt about that. That the safety is not aligned with its slot means the bolt handle is fully up and that the bolt is not fully forward.
If, after the last shot, the bolt is pushed forward in the usual quick and fluid fashion, the bolt would be fully forward so the bolt handle would have no problem latching downwards with the bolt handle fitting snugly against the body of the rifle.
The best explanation for the position of the bolt in the Alyea footage is that the bolt is jammed. What would cause this?
Walt's explanation, that the ejector has not properly engaged with the bullet and is jammed up against it, seems most plausible. This would account for the very small misalignment.
But what would cause the ejector not to engage with the bullet? Normal use?
Or manually inserting a single bullet into the chamber?

The bolt handle is clearly sticking up, there can be no doubt about that. That the safety is not aligned with its slot means the bolt handle is fully up and that the bolt is not fully forward.

Right on !....   You're totally correct, Mr O' meara .....  And I might add this image was taken just after Lt. Day picked the rifle up OF THE FLOOR ( not jammed between boxes) and BEFORE Fritz touched the rifle....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 29, 2022, 03:36:19 PM
The bolt handle is clearly sticking up, there can be no doubt about that. That the safety is not aligned with its slot means the bolt handle is fully up and that the bolt is not fully forward.

Right on !....   Your totally correct, Mr O' meara .....  And I might add this image was taken just after Lt. Day picked the rifle up OF THE FLOOR ( not jammed between boxes) and BEFORE Fritz touched the rifle....



And I might add this image was taken just after Lt. Day picked the rifle up OF THE FLOOR ( not jammed between boxes) and BEFORE Fritz touched the rifle....


Totally wrong. The film segment is continuous from the time Day lifts it off the floor until Fritz ejects the cartridge. And it agrees with what both Day and Fritz testified.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 29, 2022, 04:32:12 PM
(https://i.vgy.me/I7hObV.jpg)

Exactly as I see it in the gif sequence of the rifle being lifted up by Day.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 29, 2022, 04:54:04 PM
Exactly as I see it in the gif sequence of the rifle being lifted up by Day.


With the camera angle relative to the rifle in the Alyea film being very different from the angles in the blabber mouth video image, I think that it would be virtually impossible to say for certain that the angle of the handle and the distance between the knob and the scope are “exactly” the same. But you could possibly be correct. Thanks for the input.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 29, 2022, 06:17:42 PM

Thanks James, I do like the DVD. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Yes, the angles involved make this very challenging. The handle is clearly not fully latched (in the down position) as it appeared to me earlier in one of the images. But is it fully up as far as it can go? After looking at it again with “fresh eyes”, it appears to me to be close to fully up. And, if it is part-way down, I doubt that we would be able to discern such a small difference. Even with an actual identical rifle simulating the angles involved.

 if it is part-way down,

I can't get the bolt on my carcano to stay in a "part way down" position....Once the rectangular base of the bolt is forward of the slot in the bridge the bolt will easily rotate about six degrees down toward the fully closed and latched position ....but when it reaches that 6 degree limit is it becomes much more difficult to close and latch.   And if there is a round in the firing chamber and that round is not seated behind the extractor ....then it is impossible to close the bolt past the six degrees.   But if the round is seated in front of the extractor on the face of the bolt then the bolt will close and latch, ....but it takes some effort to close and latch the bolt to put the rifle in the ready to fire position.   

P.S.    I seriously doubt that any shooter would stop pushing the bolt forward and down, once he has extracted and ejected the spent shell from the previous round.   It would be unnatural....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 29, 2022, 06:33:37 PM


And I might add this image was taken just after Lt. Day picked the rifle up OF THE FLOOR ( not jammed between boxes) and BEFORE Fritz touched the rifle....


Totally wrong. The film segment is continuous from the time Day lifts it off the floor until Fritz ejects the cartridge. And it agrees with what both Day and Fritz testified.


The film segment is continuous from the time Day lifts it off the floor until Fritz ejects the cartridge.

Huh?    My eyes are playing tricks....Did you say? ...The film segment is continuous from the time Day lifts it off the floor      


Did Day lift it OFF THE FLOOR?....Or did he pull it out from between boxes of books?



Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 29, 2022, 06:42:07 PM

The film segment is continuous from the time Day lifts it off the floor until Fritz ejects the cartridge.

Huh?    My eyes are playing tricks....Did you say? ...The film segment is continuous from the time Day lifts it off the floor      


Did Day lift it OFF THE FLOOR?....Or did he pull it out from between boxes of books?


Did Day lift it OFF THE FLOOR?....Or did he pull it out from between boxes of books?


Both
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 29, 2022, 07:04:21 PM

I posted this image earlier in the thread, it shows that the safety is not quite aligned with the slot it is supposed to fit in to meaning the bolt handle must be up in the "fully up" position.


That image appears to me to be made after Fritz ejected the cartridge. So, it appears to me to be irrelevant. Also, if it were shown to be relevant, if the camera isn’t at a perfect 90-degree angle and aligned perfectly with the safety, then the angle involved will affect how the alignment with the wooden slot appears. This is because the wooden slot is closer to the camera than the metal safety.


The best explanation for the position of the bolt in the Alyea footage is that the bolt is jammed.

No it is not. There could be several other better explanations, including that it wasn’t pushed down by the gunman, that it was pushed upwards when lowered in between the boxes, that Day pushed it up while examining the knob for prints before he lifted the rifle off the floor, etc.. Also, if Walt’s theory were true, gravity (with the muzzle is pointing toward the floor) and friction would have held the cartridge in the barrel when Fritz pulled the bolt back. Therefore it would not have fallen to the floor.

It's clearly one of those things that cannot be decided definitively, so it comes down to the way we look at things.

That image appears to me to be made after Fritz ejected the cartridge. So, it appears to me to be irrelevant.

If that were the case the bolt would be fully retracted, this seems obvious.

if the camera isn’t at a perfect 90-degree angle and aligned perfectly with the safety, then the angle involved will affect how the alignment with the wooden slot appears.

The camera is so close to 90 degrees on that this argument is irrelevant.

There could be several other better explanations, including that it wasn’t pushed down by the gunman, that it was pushed upwards when lowered in between the boxes, that Day pushed it up while examining the knob for prints before he lifted the rifle off the floor, etc.

The movement of pushing the bolt forward is quick and fluid, taking just a fraction of a second. The idea the shooter stopped halfway through this automatic motion is a non-starter.
There is a slim possibility the bolt handle could be fully pushed up by a box but the important thing is that the bolt is also pushed back, highly unlikely in this proposed scenario.
Day does not examine the rifle for prints before picking it up. This seems made up.

I posted this video earlier in the thread. It is basically a guy firing a Carcano. After firing, the action of ejecting then slamming the bolt forward is a quick, fluid, automatic, decisive action that takes a fraction of a second. It is also a most important action, loading the bullet for the next shot. The idea of freezing during this action seems unlikely.


Also, if Walt’s theory were true, gravity (with the muzzle is pointing toward the floor) and friction would have held the cartridge in the barrel when Fritz pulled the bolt back. Therefore it would not have fallen to the floor.

I don't have to answer for Walt's theories. What I will say is that I don't believe the ejection of the live round is shown in the available Alyea footage. At no point does either man retrieve the live round from the floor or make any move resembling that.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 29, 2022, 08:10:12 PM

Did Day lift it OFF THE FLOOR?....Or did he pull it out from between boxes of books?


Both

It can't be both....  He was filmed grabbing it by the leather strap....and he couldn't have reached that strap if the rifle was jammed between the boxes of books...

At one point ( somewhere in his statements )... Lt Day says that he picked the rifle up by the wooden stock....But the film shows him holding it up by the leather strap.    It's obvious that he knew that he would have had to grab the wooden stock if the rifle was jammed between boxes of books.....But the Alyea film shows us clearly that he DID NOT grab the rifle by the wooden stock.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 29, 2022, 08:11:34 PM
It's clearly one of those things that cannot be decided definitively, so it comes down to the way we look at things.

That image appears to me to be made after Fritz ejected the cartridge. So, it appears to me to be irrelevant.

If that were the case the bolt would be fully retracted, this seems obvious.

if the camera isn’t at a perfect 90-degree angle and aligned perfectly with the safety, then the angle involved will affect how the alignment with the wooden slot appears.

The camera is so close to 90 degrees on that this argument is irrelevant.

There could be several other better explanations, including that it wasn’t pushed down by the gunman, that it was pushed upwards when lowered in between the boxes, that Day pushed it up while examining the knob for prints before he lifted the rifle off the floor, etc.

The movement of pushing the bolt forward is quick and fluid, taking just a fraction of a second. The idea the shooter stopped halfway through this automatic motion is a non-starter.
There is a slim possibility the bolt handle could be fully pushed up by a box but the important thing is that the bolt is also pushed back, highly unlikely in this proposed scenario.
Day does not examine the rifle for prints before picking it up. This seems made up.

I posted this video earlier in the thread. It is basically a guy firing a Carcano. After firing, the action of ejecting then slamming the bolt forward is a quick, fluid, automatic, decisive action that takes a fraction of a second. It is also a most important action, loading the bullet for the next shot. The idea of freezing during this action seems unlikely.


Also, if Walt’s theory were true, gravity (with the muzzle is pointing toward the floor) and friction would have held the cartridge in the barrel when Fritz pulled the bolt back. Therefore it would not have fallen to the floor.

I don't have to answer for Walt's theories. What I will say is that I don't believe the ejection of the live round is shown in the available Alyea footage. At no point does either man retrieve the live round from the floor or make any move resembling that.


If that were the case the bolt would be fully retracted, this seems obvious.

Not if either Fritz or Day then pushed it forward, this seems obvious.


The movement of pushing the bolt forward is quick and fluid, taking just a fraction of a second. The idea the shooter stopped halfway through this automatic motion is a non-starter.

You may not believe that it is very likely. However, you didn't just blow JFK's brains out and see it in your 4X scope, now did you?


There is a slim possibility the bolt handle could be fully pushed up by a box but the important thing is that the bolt is also pushed back, highly unlikely in this proposed scenario.

No, the important thing is that there is no easy way of knowing whether or not the bolt is also pushed back. Again, the image you are relying on was taken after Fritz ejected the live round.



Day does not examine the rifle for prints before picking it up. This seems made up.

Day testified that he first examined the rifle and determined the wooden stock was too rough to show fingerprints and looked at the knob with his glass before he picked it up. The rifle appears to be laying flat on the floor at the beginning of the Alyea film segment in which Day picks it up. How does it get to be laying flat on the floor, did Day manipulate it into that position while making these examinations? Just because this isn't on film doesn't mean it didn't happen.



I posted this video earlier in the thread. It is basically a guy firing a Carcano. After firing, the action of ejecting then slamming the bolt forward is a quick, fluid, automatic, decisive action that takes a fraction of a second. It is also a most important action, loading the bullet for the next shot. The idea of freezing during this action seems unlikely.

Does the guy in the video blow anyone's brains out? I propose that the shock of seeing that happen and the realization that no more shots are needed might just cause someone to stop in mid stream. Whether or not you think it is likely matters not a bit to me. It is still a possibility no matter how unlikely anyone might think it to be.



What I will say is that I don't believe the ejection of the live round is shown in the available Alyea footage. At no point does either man retrieve the live round from the floor or make any move resembling that.


Day lifts the rifle up off the floor and presents it to Fritz. Fritz is seen grabbing the sling with his left hand and looking towards the bolt. Then both Day and Fritz simultaneously look towards the floor as the segment ends. This indicates to me that the live round was ejected.

Either Alyea stopped the camera at that point and restarted it for the next segment, or the remainder of that segment was edited out at some point. This next segment shows that Alyea has moved to a different position and Day is examining the rifle with Fritz and his hanky in the background (this is the segment that I believe your image is taken from). We have no way of knowing what was done to the rifle between those two segments. The only segment that we can be sure that the live round was still in the rifle is the segment in which Day lifts it off the floor and presents it to Fritz for the ejection of the live round.

Mr. DAY. The rifle was resting on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. What else did you do in connection with the rifle at that particular time?
Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 29, 2022, 08:26:59 PM
It can't be both....  He was filmed grabbing it by the leather strap....and he couldn't have reached that strap if the rifle was jammed between the boxes of books...

At one point ( somewhere in his statements )... Lt Day says that he picked the rifle up by the wooden stock....But the film shows him holding it up by the leather strap.    It's obvious that he knew that he would have had to grab the wooden stock if the rifle was jammed between boxes of books.....But the Alyea film shows us clearly that he DID NOT grab the rifle by the wooden stock.


It wasn't "jammed". There is room to lay the rifle down flat by simply rotating it on it's long axis. See below for a link to CE 718. There is space on the floor between the rifle and the row of boxes to the north of the rifle. Adequate floor space is available adjacent to the butt end of the rifle (more than enough space to reach down and grab the sling). It appears to me that the rifle is leaning up against the boxes to the south of the rifle. And two boxes in the second level have been merely pushed over top of the rifle and appear to be cantilevered or perhaps touching the boxes to the south of the rifle.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg (https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 29, 2022, 09:07:23 PM

It wasn't "jammed". There is room to lay the rifle down flat by simply rotating it on it's long axis. See below for a link to CE 718. There is space on the floor between the rifle and the row of boxes to the north of the rifle. Adequate floor space is available adjacent to the butt end of the rifle (more than enough space to reach down and grab the sling). It appears to me that the rifle is leaning up against the boxes to the south of the rifle. And two boxes in the second level have been merely pushed over top of the rifle and appear to be cantilevered or perhaps touching the boxes to the south of the rifle.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg (https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg)

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg

(https://i.imgur.com/b5iLFTm.png)

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg

The piece of white paper on the floor beneath the stock of the rifle is different in the two photos....and the butt of the rifle is directly below the corner of the cardboard box above it.....while in the other photo the corner of that box is about half wat up the stock ( about seven inches back from the rear of the CLOSED bolt.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 29, 2022, 09:17:39 PM
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg

(https://i.imgur.com/b5iLFTm.png)

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg

Thanks, that confirms that there is adequate space like I said earlier. But it is difficult to say what is holding the rifle in the upright position.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 29, 2022, 09:30:03 PM

If that were the case the bolt would be fully retracted, this seems obvious.

Not if either Fritz or Day then pushed it forward, this seems obvious.


The movement of pushing the bolt forward is quick and fluid, taking just a fraction of a second. The idea the shooter stopped halfway through this automatic motion is a non-starter.

You may not believe that it is very likely. However, you didn't just blow JFK's brains out and see it in your 4X scope, now did you?


There is a slim possibility the bolt handle could be fully pushed up by a box but the important thing is that the bolt is also pushed back, highly unlikely in this proposed scenario.

No, the important thing is that there is no easy way of knowing whether or not the bolt is also pushed back. Again, the image you are relying on was taken after Fritz ejected the live round.



Day does not examine the rifle for prints before picking it up. This seems made up.

Day testified that he first examined the rifle and determined the wooden stock was too rough to show fingerprints and looked at the knob with his glass before he picked it up. The rifle appears to be laying flat on the floor at the beginning of the Alyea film segment in which Day picks it up. How does it get to be laying flat on the floor, did Day manipulate it into that position while making these examinations? Just because this isn't on film doesn't mean it didn't happen.



I posted this video earlier in the thread. It is basically a guy firing a Carcano. After firing, the action of ejecting then slamming the bolt forward is a quick, fluid, automatic, decisive action that takes a fraction of a second. It is also a most important action, loading the bullet for the next shot. The idea of freezing during this action seems unlikely.

Does the guy in the video blow anyone's brains out? I propose that the shock of seeing that happen and the realization that no more shots are needed might just cause someone to stop in mid stream. Whether or not you think it is likely matters not a bit to me. It is still a possibility no matter how unlikely anyone might think it to be.



What I will say is that I don't believe the ejection of the live round is shown in the available Alyea footage. At no point does either man retrieve the live round from the floor or make any move resembling that.


Day lifts the rifle up off the floor and presents it to Fritz. Fritz is seen grabbing the sling with his left hand and looking towards the bolt. Then both Day and Fritz simultaneously look towards the floor as the segment ends. This indicates to me that the live round was ejected.

Either Alyea stopped the camera at that point and restarted it for the next segment, or the remainder of that segment was edited out at some point. This next segment shows that Alyea has moved to a different position and Day is examining the rifle with Fritz and his hanky in the background (this is the segment that I believe your image is taken from). We have no way of knowing what was done to the rifle between those two segments. The only segment that we can be sure that the live round was still in the rifle is the segment in which Day lifts it off the floor and presents it to Fritz for the ejection of the live round.

Mr. DAY. The rifle was resting on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. What else did you do in connection with the rifle at that particular time?
Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

You may not believe that it is very likely. However, you didn't just blow JFK's brains out and see it in your 4X scope, now did you?

Your argument being the shooter was so shocked by doing exactly what he was trying to do he froze.
Hmmmm....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 29, 2022, 09:44:15 PM
You may not believe that it is very likely. However, you didn't just blow JFK's brains out and see it in your 4X scope, now did you?

Your argument being the shooter was so shocked by doing exactly what he was trying to do he froze.
Hmmmm....


There are some things in life that, even though you think you are prepared for them, they still shock you. I can’t imagine wanting to kill anyone. But I can imagine being shocked at the sight that he must have seen.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 29, 2022, 09:55:04 PM
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg

(https://i.imgur.com/b5iLFTm.png)

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg

The piece of white paper on the floor beneath the stock of the rifle is different in the two photos....and the butt of the rifle is directly below the corner of the cardboard box above it.....while in the other photo the corner of that box is about half wat up the stock ( about seven inches back from the rear of the CLOSED bolt.

Referring to the photos taken looking down toward a rifle jammed between boxes of books  ( One of them has a man's leg in the photo ) Can anybody see the scope which was mounted on the rifle?....   The rear of the scope aligned with the rear of the trigger guard.....So if you can see the scope you should also see the rear of the bolt just to the right and below the rear end of the scope.   I can't see the rear of the bolt in either photo....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 29, 2022, 10:01:40 PM

There are some things in life that, even though you think you are prepared for them, they still shock you. I can’t imagine wanting to kill anyone. But I can imagine being shocked at the sight that he must have seen.

I can imagine being shocked at the sight that he must have seen.

How could Lee have seen that from the 1st floor lunchroom?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 29, 2022, 10:09:14 PM
Noticed this in Day's WC testimony:

"When bolt opened one live round was in the barrel. No prints are on the live round. Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Day opened the barrel. Captain Fritz has the live round. Three spent hulls were found under the window. They were picked up by Detective Sims and witnessed by Lieutenant Day and Studebaker. The clip is stamped 'SMI, 9 x 2.'"

Decided to check it out. This is a close up pic of CE575:

(https://i.postimg.cc/65TxGQSB/Screenshot-258-1.png) (https://postimages.org/)

It appears to be stamped 8MI 952 (could be SMI) but Day's mistake can be understood.
However, I went back to the picture posted by Jim of all the evidence on the table and took a close up of the clip:

(https://i.postimg.cc/brcLY3KG/Screenshot-260-1.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Is it my imagination but I can't see the 952 on the right hand side of the clip.
Also, there seems to be something next to 8MI that looks like the number 18 in a circle.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rFqCh0cL/Screenshot-259-2.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Is it just my tired old eyes or am I missing something?

LATER EDIT: It must be my tired old eyes - just noticed it doesn't have 8MI stamped on Jim's clip, it has 81M.
And this doesn't seem to be stamped on, it looks written on.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 29, 2022, 10:09:46 PM

There are some things in life that, even though you think you are prepared for them, they still shock you. I can’t imagine wanting to kill anyone. But I can imagine being shocked at the sight that he must have seen.

More of a WTF in Oswald's case
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 29, 2022, 10:29:24 PM
Cool.

Look at this photo of the Ozwald incriminating evidence. The spent cartridge on the left seems to have abrasions - caused by the elevator?

(https://i.ibb.co/Y0S8sQ6/Oswald-evidence.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tL6crKS)
(https://i.ibb.co/sP8xfHz/Oswald-evidence-zoom.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

Where is this pic from Jim, because the clip on the table is not the same as the clip in evidence for the WC [CE575]?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 29, 2022, 11:16:52 PM
For what it's worth, on page 188 of JFK First Day Evidence by Gary Savage, a photo of a carbon copy of an original report to J. E. Curry written and signed by J.C. Day dated 1/8/64 appears. In it Day writes:

About 1:25 pm Captain J.W. Fritz, #9 directed Lieutenant Day to the northwest portion of the sixth floor where a rifle had been found between some cartons near the stairs. Photographs were taken of the rifle as found, then it was picked up by Lieutenant Day in such a way as to destroy no fingerprints that might be present. With Lieutenant Day holding the gun, Captain Fritz opened the bolt and a live shell fell from the barrel. This shell was in position to fire should the trigger be pulled. The live shell was checked for prints, marked for Identification and released to Captain Fritz. No fingerprints were found.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 29, 2022, 11:28:15 PM
For what it's worth, on page 188 of JFK First Day Evidence by Gary Savage, a photo of a carbon copy of an original report to J. E. Curry written and signed by J.C. Day dated 1/8/64 appears. In it Day writes:

About 1:25 pm Captain J.W. Fritz, #9 directed Lieutenant Day to the northwest portion of the sixth floor where a rifle had been found between some cartons near the stairs. Photographs were taken of the rifle as found, then it was picked up by Lieutenant Day in such a way as to destroy no fingerprints that might be present. With Lieutenant Day holding the gun, Captain Fritz opened the bolt and a live shell fell from the barrel. This shell was in position to fire should the trigger be pulled. The live shell was checked for prints, marked for Identification and released to Captain Fritz. No fingerprints were found.

This shell was in position to fire should the trigger be pulled.

Question for you Mr Collins.... Is it possible to pull the trigger and fire a cartridge with the bolt not down and latched?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 29, 2022, 11:48:56 PM
Noticed this in Day's WC testimony:

"When bolt opened one live round was in the barrel. No prints are on the live round. Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Day opened the barrel. Captain Fritz has the live round. Three spent hulls were found under the window. They were picked up by Detective Sims and witnessed by Lieutenant Day and Studebaker. The clip is stamped 'SMI, 9 x 2.'"

Decided to check it out. This is a close up pic of CE575:

(https://i.postimg.cc/65TxGQSB/Screenshot-258-1.png) (https://postimages.org/)

It appears to be stamped 8MI 952 (could be SMI) but Day's mistake can be understood.
However, I went back to the picture posted by Jim of all the evidence on the table and took a close up of the clip:

(https://i.postimg.cc/brcLY3KG/Screenshot-260-1.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Is it my imagination but I can't see the 952 on the right hand side of the clip.
Also, there seems to be something next to 8MI that looks like the number 18 in a circle.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rFqCh0cL/Screenshot-259-2.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Is it just my tired old eyes or am I missing something?

LATER EDIT: It must be my tired old eyes - just noticed it doesn't have 8MI stamped on Jim's clip, it has 81M.
And this doesn't seem to be stamped on, it looks written on.
The clip in the photo appears to be a blue steel clip....

I have a brass clip and a Blue steel clip ......The two clips look a bit different when compared side by side....   The steel of the blue steel clip is stamped more clearly than the brass clip... ( I'm referring to the grooves at the sides of the clips ( the grooves that hold the rim of the cartridge when the cartridge is in the clip )  The steel of the steel clip is thinner than the metal of the brass clip and since brass is a soft metal, it can't be stamped as crisply as the steel clip.   

My brass clip is stamped SMI ( SOCIETA METALLURGICA ITALIANA ) on the left side  of the clip and there is a five point star follwed by the numerals 36 on the right side ....  I believe that means the clip was manufactured in Italy in 1936.

The Blue steel clip is stamped SMI on the left side and there is a five oint star followed by the number 39 on the right side. I believe that the blue steel clip was made in Italy in 1939. 

The clip in the photo appears to be a blue steel clip and it was manufactured in Italy in 1952......

If that's true then the clip in the photo definitely is NOT the clip that was in the rifle when Day was examining the rifle.   

I'm not guessing about the stamping on the clips...because the cardboard box that they came in was that small box of 24 cartridges that was issued to the Italian soldiers.   I have four of those cardboard boxes and it says right on the box " Societa Metallurgica Italiana" it is also marked "fornaci di Baga" which I guess  might be the name of the person who packaged the loaded clips.   It is also stamped SMI 1936.

I large letters it is stamped "A. Pallottola" then smaller letters "Armi mo 91E" mitragliatrici, And then in large letters...SOLENITE    Anybody who understands Italian can tell us what all that means...
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on July 30, 2022, 12:03:00 AM
The clip in the photo appears to be a blue steel clip....

I have a brass clip and a Blue steel clip ......The two clips look a bit different when compared side by side....   The steel of the blue steel clip is stamped more clearly than the brass clip... ( I'm referring to the grooves at the sides of the clips ( the grooves that hold the rim of the cartridge when the cartridge is in the clip )  The steel of the steel clip is thinner than the metal of the brass clip and since brass is a soft metal, it can't be stamped as crisply as the steel clip.   

My brass clip is stamped SMI ( SOCIETA METALLURGICA ITALIANA ) on the left side  of the clip and there is a five point star follwed by the numerals 36 on the right side ....  I believe that means the clip was manufactured in Italy in 1936.

The Blue steel clip is stamped SMI on the left side and there is a five oint star followed by the number 39 on the right side. I believe that the blue steeclip was made in Italy in 1939. 

The clip in the photo appears to be a blue steel clip and it was manufactured in Italy in 1952......

If that's true then the clip in the photo definitely is NOT the clip that was in the rifle when Day was examining the rifle.

I've checked out a lot of these brass clips online. They all have SMI stamped on one side and a three digit number on the other.
The clip on the evidence table Jim posted doesn't have SMI on it, it has SIM and there are no numbers on the other side. This is not the clip CE575.

I'm trying to find out when the pic Jim posted was taken and if there are any other pics including the clip (FBI or DPD).
At the moment this looks like a clear example of tampering with evidence but it needs to be checked more thoroughly.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 30, 2022, 12:27:22 AM
I've checked out a lot of these brass clips online. They all have SMI stamped on one side and a three digit number on the other.
The clip on the evidence table Jim posted doesn't have SMI on it, it has SIM and there are no numbers on the other side. This is not the clip CE575.

I'm trying to find out when the pic Jim posted was taken and if there are any other pics including the clip (FBI or DPD).
At the moment this looks like a clear example of tampering with evidence but it needs to be checked more thoroughly.

I have many clips dating back to 1923....... but I believe the newest clip I have is a steel clip made in 1939.   I believe they Italians continued to manufacture the clips well into the 1950's and they made them out of steel.... If a clip is stamped "52" i believe that clip would be made of steel, in 1952.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jim Hawthorn on July 30, 2022, 08:04:25 AM
Where is this pic from Jim, because the clip on the table is not the same as the clip in evidence for the WC [CE575]?

I found it here:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1967/06/10/the-buffs
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 30, 2022, 11:14:52 AM
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg

(https://i.imgur.com/b5iLFTm.png)

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg

The piece of white paper on the floor beneath the stock of the rifle is different in the two photos....and the butt of the rifle is directly below the corner of the cardboard box above it.....while in the other photo the corner of that box is about half wat up the stock ( about seven inches back from the rear of the CLOSED bolt.


No, the camera angle is different. The paper is the same. The rifle hasn’t moved. And I don’t believe that the bolt is visible.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 30, 2022, 01:36:29 PM

No, the camera angle is different. The paper is the same. The rifle hasn’t moved. And I don’t believe that the bolt is visible.

So we disagree once more.... Nothing new or unusual about that....

Do you believe the scope is visible, and if so, how much of the scope can be seen?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 30, 2022, 01:46:31 PM
I found it here:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1967/06/10/the-buffs

Jim I don't believe the display of the items is authentic....   Some of those items were /are in the national archives  ( the cartridges for example) and they would not be displayed on a display board....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 30, 2022, 03:03:42 PM

No, the camera angle is different. The paper is the same. The rifle hasn’t moved. And I don’t believe that the bolt is visible.

 the camera angle is different.

Yes , that's obvious..... But when aligning the vertical edge of the box above the rifle it's obvious that the rifle is not in the same place in both photos.  The reason I posted the link to the other photo was so a viewer could compare the two photos easily.  The photo with Fritz's leg in it shows the corner of the vertical edge of the box is aligned with the metal butt plate of the rifle on the floor.  IOW...If a plumb bob was hung from the top SW corner of that box...... The bob would strike the floor near the butt plate of the rifle.  If the same exercise was performed on the other photo ( No leg in the photo)  the bob would strike the floor about 4 inches forward of the butt plate.  Obviously the rifle is not in the same place in both photos.



Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 30, 2022, 03:49:17 PM
So we disagree once more.... Nothing new or unusual about that....

Do you believe the scope is visible, and if so, how much of the scope can be seen?


Here are two images. The first one is a pertinent cropped portion of the DPD photos in which I have drawn a yellow arrow pointing to the back of the scope. Notice that the back of the scope is almost directly above the back of the groove in the stock.


(https://i.vgy.me/mSS4e5.jpg)


The second image is a crop of the photo of CE-139. Notice that the back of the scope is almost directly above the end of the groove in the stock (see arrow).


(https://i.vgy.me/IoLsNE.jpg)


The image you posted from the Alyea film simply doesn't show enough of the rifle to show the area where the back of the scope and the end of the groove in the stock are. So the answer to your question is "no".
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on July 30, 2022, 04:03:23 PM
As I understand it, if the bolt was not locked by rotating the bolt handle down, then there no way the extractor will be able to pull the round out of the chamber if the bolt is retracted.

So one question is if when the non locked bolt was retracted with the rifle in a vertical position (barrel up) would the round slide out of the chamber due to gravity, or remain in the chamber?

Certainly around would remain in the chamber if the rifle were held horizontally while the unlocked bolt is retracted yes?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 30, 2022, 04:41:31 PM

Here are two images. The first one is a pertinent cropped portion of the DPD photos in which I have drawn a yellow arrow pointing to the back of the scope. Notice that the back of the scope is almost directly above the back of the groove in the stock.


(https://i.vgy.me/mSS4e5.jpg)


The second image is a crop of the photo of CE-139. Notice that the back of the scope is almost directly above the end of the groove in the stock (see arrow).


(https://i.vgy.me/IoLsNE.jpg)


The image you posted from the Alyea film simply doesn't show enough of the rifle to show the area where the back of the scope and the end of the groove in the stock are. So the answer to your question is "no".
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg
(https://i.vgy.me/mSS4e5.jpg)

Compare the piece of paper on the floor beneath the rifle....Is it the same in both photos??
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 30, 2022, 05:00:07 PM
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg
(https://i.vgy.me/mSS4e5.jpg)

Compare the piece of paper on the floor beneath the rifle....Is it the same in both photos??



Yes, I believe it is the same.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 30, 2022, 05:03:53 PM
As I understand it, if the bolt was not locked by rotating the bolt handle down, then there no way the extractor will be able to pull the round out of the chamber if the bolt is retracted.

So one question is if when the non locked bolt was retracted with the rifle in a vertical position (barrel up) would the round slide out of the chamber due to gravity, or remain in the chamber?

Certainly around would remain in the chamber if the rifle were held horizontally while the unlocked bolt is retracted yes?

As I understand it, if the bolt was not locked by rotating the bolt handle down, then there no way the extractor will be able to pull the round out of the chamber if the bolt is retracted.

It makes no difference if the bolt handle is up, or down,  ( of course the bolt cannot be retracted of the bolt is down )  If the round was fed up to the extractor by the elevator and the round was seated on the face of the bolt, then the round can be pulled from the chamber by lifting the bolt handle and  retracting the bolt .....And if the bolt wasn't pulled back far enough for the ejector to flip the cartridge out of the bolt, then the cartridge could be rechambered by pushing the bolt closed .
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 30, 2022, 06:24:38 PM


Yes, I believe it is the same.

Ok Then we agree about that piece of paper.....Now ... Is the rifle in the same position in both photos?

A good way to find the answer is if we could see the boards of the floor beneath the rifle.

I believe the rifle is in the same spot in both photos.....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 30, 2022, 07:10:43 PM

Here are two images. The first one is a pertinent cropped portion of the DPD photos in which I have drawn a yellow arrow pointing to the back of the scope. Notice that the back of the scope is almost directly above the back of the groove in the stock.


(https://i.vgy.me/mSS4e5.jpg)


The second image is a crop of the photo of CE-139. Notice that the back of the scope is almost directly above the end of the groove in the stock (see arrow).


(https://i.vgy.me/IoLsNE.jpg)


The image you posted from the Alyea film simply doesn't show enough of the rifle to show the area where the back of the scope and the end of the groove in the stock are. So the answer to your question is "no".

What color is the stock on CE 139?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 30, 2022, 08:02:08 PM
Ok Then we agree about that piece of paper.....Now ... Is the rifle in the same position in both photos?

A good way to find the answer is if we could see the boards of the floor beneath the rifle.

I believe the rifle is in the same spot in both photos.....


I also believe the rifle is in the same spot in both the DPD photo and the Alyea image.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on July 31, 2022, 12:38:27 AM
I just did an experiment with my K-98 Mauser rifle with the the following results:

1. After manually chambering one cartridge with the bolt left retracted (ie: fully open exposing the magazine well) the round did not slide out when the rifle was held vertically, barrel up.

2. After pushing the bolt forward without locking it down by rotating the handle down, I then retracted the bolt and found that the extractor did not  grip the ridge of the cartridge and the round stayed in the camber , even with the rifle in vertical position.

3 The round stayed in the chamber of the vertically oriented barrel uo rifle even when I tapped the butt on the floor a couple of times.

4. In order to get the round out, I had to actually push the bolt forward and  lock the  bolt fully forward by rotating the handle down fully, which apparently is the ONLY way that the extractor engages the inside of the cartridge rim. Then when I then  rotated the bolt handle counter clockwise and retracted the bolt QUICKLY  to the rear stop position, the cartridge was  pulled out and then “ejected”  (as opposed to simply “falling out.)

5. I then tried a SLOW  retraction of the bolt and found that although the cartridge was pulled out, it did NOT get ejected, nor even fall out , but remained gripped by the extractor, I had to  push the bolt forward again reseating the round in the chamber and then retract rhe bolt more quickly and with more force to cause proper ejection of the cartridge.

IIf the K98 Mauser bolt action and tolerances are similar  enough to the MC rifle bolt and extractor mechanism then my experiment demonstrates that for a cartridge to simply “ fall out” would suggest a cartridge that was NOT fully seated into the chamber, thus the bolt was never fully pushed forward enough in the 1st place.

This therefore is another anomaly that seems to negate LNs reason for Oswald loading one more round after firing the 3rd shot and carring the rifle to the the staircase because he might have to shoot someone who was inadvertently coming to the 6 th floors.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on July 31, 2022, 01:16:39 PM
I just did an experiment with my K-98 Mauser rifle with the the following results:

1. After manually chambering one cartridge with the bolt left retracted (ie: fully open exposing the magazine well) the round did not slide out when the rifle was held vertically, barrel up.

2. After pushing the bolt forward without locking it down by rotating the handle down, I then retracted the bolt and found that the extractor did not  grip the ridge of the cartridge and the round stayed in the camber , even with the rifle in vertical position.

3 The round stayed in the chamber of the vertically oriented barrel uo rifle even when I tapped the butt on the floor a couple of times.

4. In order to get the round out, I had to actually push the bolt forward and  lock the  bolt fully forward by rotating the handle down fully, which apparently is the ONLY way that the extractor engages the inside of the cartridge rim. Then when I then  rotated the bolt handle counter clockwise and retracted the bolt QUICKLY  to the rear stop position, the cartridge was  pulled out and then “ejected”  (as opposed to simply “falling out.)

5. I then tried a SLOW  retraction of the bolt and found that although the cartridge was pulled out, it did NOT get ejected, nor even fall out , but remained gripped by the extractor, I had to  push the bolt forward again reseating the round in the chamber and then retract rhe bolt more quickly and with more force to cause proper ejection of the cartridge.

IIf the K98 Mauser bolt action and tolerances are similar  enough to the MC rifle bolt and extractor mechanism then my experiment demonstrates that for a cartridge to simply “ fall out” would suggest a cartridge that was NOT fully seated into the chamber, thus the bolt was never fully pushed forward enough in the 1st place.

This therefore is another anomaly that seems to negate LNs reason for Oswald loading one more round after firing the 3rd shot and carring the rifle to the the staircase because he might have to shoot someone who was inadvertently coming to the 6 th floors.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work.


I am not familiar with the Mauser rifle. But here is my understanding of how the Carcano extractor engages with the cartridge. I am sure Walt will correct me if I am wrong.

The extractor engages the cartridge when the bolt is pushed forward and the very bottom portion of the bolt pushes the very top of the back of the cartridge forward until it clears the clip and is pushed up by the elevator into the receiver. Here are two of the cutaway frames that show this:

(https://i.vgy.me/T9py35.jpg)
Here, the cartridge is being pushed forward by the bolt and the elevator is pushing the cartridge upwards such that the extractor engages the cartridge in the groove between the base of the cartridge and the body of the cartridge.




(https://i.vgy.me/rIFdCM.jpg)
At this point in the forward motion of the bolt, the extractor is already engaged (into the groove between the base and the body of the cartridge). And if you were to stop the forward motion of the bolt at this point and pull it backwards, the cartridge would be pulled backwards also and ejected if pulled completely back to the fully open position. In other words, the bolt does not have to be rotated down to the locked position in order for the extractor to engage the cartridge (as you indicate is the case with the Mauser).

And Robert Frazier testified under oath that C-139 will (if the bolt is opened with minimal force) not throw the shell out with force, but will let it fall down at your feet.



This therefore is another anomaly that seems to negate LNs reason for Oswald loading one more round after firing the 3rd shot and carring the rifle to the the staircase because he might have to shoot someone who was inadvertently coming to the 6 th floors.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work


He might simply have been smart enough to know that hiding the rifle would likely buy him more time to get out of town (before they found it and connected it to him). After he was arrested I think he was surprised how fast they were still able to do just that.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 31, 2022, 02:26:18 PM

I am not familiar with the Mauser rifle. But here is my understanding of how the Carcano extractor engages with the cartridge. I am sure Walt will correct me if I am wrong.

The extractor engages the cartridge when the bolt is pushed forward and the very bottom portion of the bolt pushes the very top of the back of the cartridge forward until it clears the clip and is pushed up by the elevator into the receiver. Here are two of the cutaway frames that show this:

(https://i.vgy.me/T9py35.jpg)
Here, the cartridge is being pushed forward by the bolt and the elevator is pushing the cartridge upwards such that the extractor engages the cartridge in the groove between the base of the cartridge and the body of the cartridge.




(https://i.vgy.me/rIFdCM.jpg)
At this point in the forward motion of the bolt, the extractor is already engaged (into the groove between the base and the body of the cartridge). And if you were to stop the forward motion of the bolt at this point and pull it backwards, the cartridge would be pulled backwards also and ejected if pulled completely back to the fully open position. In other words, the bolt does not have to be rotated down to the locked position in order for the extractor to engage the cartridge (as you indicate is the case with the Mauser).

And Robert Frazier testified under oath that C-139 will (if the bolt is opened with minimal force) not throw the shell out with force, but will let it fall down at your feet.



This therefore is another anomaly that seems to negate LNs reason for Oswald loading one more round after firing the 3rd shot and carring the rifle to the the staircase because he might have to shoot someone who was inadvertently coming to the 6 th floors.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work


He might simply have been smart enough to know that hiding the rifle would likely buy him more time to get out of town (before they found it and connected it to him). After he was arrested I think he was surprised how fast they were still able to do just that.

I am not familiar with the Mauser rifle. But here is my understanding of how the Carcano extractor engages with the cartridge. I am sure Walt will correct me if I am wrong.

No other rifle should be used to attempt to verify the mechanical operation of the mannlicher carcano.

And I believe that you understand how the carcano operates , Charles..... Though you're not precisely correct in describing how the cartridge is chambered.... 

"the elevator is pushing the cartridge upwards such that the extractor engages the cartridge in the groove between the base of the cartridge and the body of the cartridge."

the elevator is pushing the cartridge upwards (AND INTO THE ANNULAR SPACE ON THE FRONT OF THE BOLT ) such that the extractor engages the cartridge in the groove between the base of the cartridge and the body of the cartridge.





If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired


pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired

Yes, and this is just one of the indicators that reveal that the rifle was never at that sixth floor window...It was hidden beneath the boxes of books BEFORE the shooting.


He might simply have been smart enough to know that hiding the rifle would likely buy him more time to get out of town (before they found it and connected it to him). After he was arrested I think he was surprised how fast they were still able to do just that.

Yes, Hiding the rifle would have bought him time ....and that was the plan, and it probably would have been hours or possible a day if the double crossers who played Lee for a sucker, by setting him up to be framed for murdering JFK....when they shot President Kennedy. 

Lee thought that he was participating in a hoax in which it would appear that he had shot  AT AT  JFK.
And if JFK had not been killed there would have been no mad rush to find the killer.   He hid that rifle before the motorcade arrived.   If the cops had been looking for a person who had fired a gun as the president passed by....they wouldn't have been in a mad rush to find that person and his gun.  But the killers foiled Lee's plan of fleeing to Cuba after the cops reported that someone had shot at JFK from the TSBD.   They learned this after the spent shells, and the rifle were found by the employees who would have been working on the sixth floor that afternoon.   Lee thought that he would have been in Mexico by
 the time the shells and rifle were found.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 31, 2022, 07:44:33 PM
I just did an experiment with my K-98 Mauser rifle with the the following results:

1. After manually chambering one cartridge with the bolt left retracted (ie: fully open exposing the magazine well) the round did not slide out when the rifle was held vertically, barrel up.

2. After pushing the bolt forward without locking it down by rotating the handle down, I then retracted the bolt and found that the extractor did not  grip the ridge of the cartridge and the round stayed in the camber , even with the rifle in vertical position.

3 The round stayed in the chamber of the vertically oriented barrel uo rifle even when I tapped the butt on the floor a couple of times.

4. In order to get the round out, I had to actually push the bolt forward and  lock the  bolt fully forward by rotating the handle down fully, which apparently is the ONLY way that the extractor engages the inside of the cartridge rim. Then when I then  rotated the bolt handle counter clockwise and retracted the bolt QUICKLY  to the rear stop position, the cartridge was  pulled out and then “ejected”  (as opposed to simply “falling out.)

5. I then tried a SLOW  retraction of the bolt and found that although the cartridge was pulled out, it did NOT get ejected, nor even fall out , but remained gripped by the extractor, I had to  push the bolt forward again reseating the round in the chamber and then retract rhe bolt more quickly and with more force to cause proper ejection of the cartridge.

IIf the K98 Mauser bolt action and tolerances are similar  enough to the MC rifle bolt and extractor mechanism then my experiment demonstrates that for a cartridge to simply “ fall out” would suggest a cartridge that was NOT fully seated into the chamber, thus the bolt was never fully pushed forward enough in the 1st place.

This therefore is another anomaly that seems to negate LNs reason for Oswald loading one more round after firing the 3rd shot and carring the rifle to the the staircase because he might have to shoot someone who was inadvertently coming to the 6 th floors.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot,
( the Carcano is automatically loaded and ready to fire a fresh cartridge when the bolt is pushed forward and latched, after extracting the spent shell from the previous cartridge. It's simply a reflex reaction ...when the shooter ejects the spent shell he instinctively closes and latches the bolt, and when he does the rifle is ready to fire) then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 02, 2022, 04:28:35 PM
So what the conclusion here? If the bolt handle should have been  locked by reflex action of a shooter trying to operate this MC rifle as quickly as possible to fire 3 shots, ( which still requires about 7-8 secs by most experiments not withstanding the dubious CBS time trial alleged feat of one old timer getting 3 hits in 5.1sec) , then why is the bolt handle open and why  did a round just “ fall out” when Fritz takes the rifle from Day?

Is there possibility of the bolt handle being rotated upward and unlocking the bolt via pushing or dropping the rifle in the gap between the 2 parallel rows of boxes?

Could the action of Fritz slowly pulling the bolt back have not been sufficient force  to eject the round properly, thus the round was pulled  partly out and then fell out ?

If the extractor never had a grip on the rim of the cartridge because the cartridge was  placed by hand into the breech with the bolt open, and the bolt only pushed forward about 90% and the bolt handle up. Then what’s the reason for that?

Responding to the notion it was “smart” to carry a rifle across the 6th floor being in LOS of the rear staircase to gain time:

Why risk being seen carrying the rifle when there are plenty of other rows of boxes that  could have obscured the rifle even better and were NOT in LOS to the staircase .and would have probably taken just as long to find.

Other things that Oswald allegedly did that (imo) do NOT seem smart:

1. supposedly using his own handwriting to spell a fake name on a mail order form for a rifle supposedly to be sent by mail .

2.Oswald supposedly using his own P.O. Box address for the rifle ordered by fake name to be sent to also.

3. Oswald supposedly carrying his fake ID while he was supposedly  shooting JFK and also while he was supposedly shooting Tippet and then dropping the billfold with that fake ID at the scene ( along with spent shells)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 09, 2022, 02:32:33 AM
So what the conclusion here? If the bolt handle should have been  locked by reflex action of a shooter trying to operate this MC rifle as quickly as possible to fire 3 shots, ( which still requires about 7-8 secs by most experiments not withstanding the dubious CBS time trial alleged feat of one old timer getting 3 hits in 5.1sec) , then why is the bolt handle open and why  did a round just “ fall out” when Fritz takes the rifle from Day?

Is there possibility of the bolt handle being rotated upward and unlocking the bolt via pushing or dropping the rifle in the gap between the 2 parallel rows of boxes?

Could the action of Fritz slowly pulling the bolt back have not been sufficient force  to eject the round properly, thus the round was pulled  partly out and then fell out ?

If the extractor never had a grip on the rim of the cartridge because the cartridge was  placed by hand into the breech with the bolt open, and the bolt only pushed forward about 90% and the bolt handle up. Then what’s the reason for that?

Responding to the notion it was “smart” to carry a rifle across the 6th floor being in LOS of the rear staircase to gain time:

Why risk being seen carrying the rifle when there are plenty of other rows of boxes that  could have obscured the rifle even better and were NOT in LOS to the staircase .and would have probably taken just as long to find.

Other things that Oswald allegedly did that (imo) do NOT seem smart:

1. supposedly using his own handwriting to spell a fake name on a mail order form for a rifle supposedly to be sent by mail .

2.Oswald supposedly using his own P.O. Box address for the rifle ordered by fake name to be sent to also.

3. Oswald supposedly carrying his fake ID while he was supposedly  shooting JFK and also while he was supposedly shooting Tippet and then dropping the billfold with that fake ID at the scene ( along with spent shells)

Why risk being seen carrying the rifle when there are plenty of other rows of boxes that  could have obscured the rifle even better and were NOT in LOS to the staircase .and would have probably taken just as long to find.

You raise an interesting point , Zeon...   The rifle was hidden where it was, because the site was along the logical path that a fleeing attempted assassin would use in leaving the sixth floor.   ( in fact that is the reason that Boone and Weitzman found the rifle. They calculated that if there was a gun left behind by the fleeing gunman, it would probably be found along his logical escape route. )

The person who hid that rifle knew that he should hide it along the escape route....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 10, 2022, 09:52:42 AM
Why risk being seen carrying the rifle when there are plenty of other rows of boxes that  could have obscured the rifle even better and were NOT in LOS to the staircase .and would have probably taken just as long to find.

You raise an interesting point , Zeon...   The rifle was hidden where it was, because the site was along the logical path that a fleeing attempted assassin would use in leaving the sixth floor.   ( in fact that is the reason that Boone and Weitzman found the rifle. They calculated that if there was a gun left behind by the fleeing gunman, it would probably be found along his logical escape route. )

The person who hid that rifle knew that he should hide it along the escape route....

And why bother going to the trouble of building a hiding place for the rifle, try to wipe it clean of all prints but leave the empty shells just lying there.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Michael Walton on August 10, 2022, 02:57:02 PM
And why bother going to the trouble of building a hiding place for the rifle, try to wipe it clean of all prints but leave the empty shells just lying there.

Yes, exactly. Great point. It makes no sense. Here we have a guy supposedly doing the deed up there, lets the shells fly all over the place [and one shell's rim was dented BTW] but takes the time to wipe down the gun and hide it. If there really had been someone up there and they took the shells too, think of the interesting ramifications that would entail about the official narrative. So I've always thought of the throw down shells as being like breadcrumbs for the story.

It reminds me of the Jeff MacDonald case - three strangers go into the home and cause all kinds of havoc on the women in there, leave old Jeff with a scratch, he supposedly fights them off, the coffee table is turned over, but all of the nick knacks on the curio shelf are undisturbed.

As for the gun itself, here's a variant of the rifle. I'm no gun expert but creaky to use. And per Pat Speer looking through the misaligned scope would have caused even more time per shot to look through it and find the target because of the warped view in a scope. He supposedly hit Kennedy in the back, loads, looks through the scope, scores a supposedly wild shot way off and downwind, loads and looks in it again and scores the head shot.

Sure, sure he did.

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 10, 2022, 06:54:20 PM
Yes, exactly. Great point. It makes no sense. Here we have a guy supposedly doing the deed up there, lets the shells fly all over the place [and one shell's rim was dented BTW] but takes the time to wipe down the gun and hide it. If there really had been someone up there and they took the shells too, think of the interesting ramifications that would entail about the official narrative. So I've always thought of the throw down shells as being like breadcrumbs for the story.

It reminds me of the Jeff MacDonald case - three strangers go into the home and cause all kinds of havoc on the women in there, leave old Jeff with a scratch, he supposedly fights them off, the coffee table is turned over, but all of the nick knacks on the curio shelf are undisturbed.

As for the gun itself, here's a variant of the rifle. I'm no gun expert but creaky to use. And per Pat Speer looking through the misaligned scope would have caused even more time per shot to look through it and find the target because of the warped view in a scope. He supposedly hit Kennedy in the back, loads, looks through the scope, scores a supposedly wild shot way off and downwind, loads and looks in it again and scores the head shot.

Sure, sure he did.


I believe that when the rifle was found, the fact that the bolt was not closed and latched is a very strong indicator that the rifle was not fired that day.... Because if it had been fired, the shooter would have closed and latched the bolt by reflex action.   Don't believe it?.... Watch the video....   The man opens the bolt to extract and eject the spent round and then closes and latches the bolt, by reflex action, and re-aims the rifle and fires



The bolt was not closed and latched because it couldn't be closed and latched...And the reason it couldn't be closed and latched is because the yokel who hid the rifle beneath the pallet of boxes of books simply dropped the live round into the chamber.....and the carcano cannot be loaded in that manner.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 10, 2022, 07:46:51 PM
And why bother going to the trouble of building a hiding place for the rifle, try to wipe it clean of all prints but leave the empty shells just lying there.

Because ...as another poster pointed out the spent shells were "bread crumbs".... To lead investigators into believing that the shots had been fired from that site and at the same time lure the cops away from the picket fence.

I believe that Lee Oswald was the person who threw down the "bread crumbs" because he wanted investigators who would come looking for the person who had taken a pot shot at JFK to believe that the shots had been fired from that site.   And he also hid the rifle beneath that pallet of books because if he had left the rifle right there at the window it would have been found and traced to his PO box.   He wanted the rifle to be found but not until he had sufficient time to get out of the U.S. and on his way to Cuba. 

Lee had no part in luring the cops away from the Grassy Knoll....But the plotters who set him up most certainly wanted the cops lured away from the picket fence where one of the gunmen could have inadvertently left some evidence ..... Like a spent shell for example.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 11, 2022, 02:39:37 AM
Because ...as another poster pointed out the spent shells were "bread crumbs"

This is a genuine possibility.
There is something so suspicious about the testimony involving the shells that it rings alarm bells.
It's why I raised the question of why a shooter should be so concerned about building a hiding place for the rifle, trying to wipe the rifle clean to destroy fingerprints, but then to leave the three shells lying there [and thereby giving away the location from where the shooting took place and connecting that location to the rifle].
It seems suspicious.






Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 11, 2022, 04:54:16 AM
Leaving the shells = 'In-your-face' from Smirky
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Richard Smith on August 11, 2022, 02:34:50 PM
And why bother going to the trouble of building a hiding place for the rifle, try to wipe it clean of all prints but leave the empty shells just lying there.

The rifle was in hand and useful in case Oswald encountered someone on the floor.  The shells were scattered about on the floor in front of the window from which he had just assassinated the president.  I'm not sure there is any reason to believe Oswald took the "trouble of building a hiding place for the rifle" on his way off the floor or tried to wipe it clean of prints.   My guess is that Oswald had placed the rifle on the 6th floor that morning when he first arrived.  The last thing he did before retrieving the rifle was to put his clipboard down.  He is holding the clipboard as a sort of prop to make it look as though he had some work-related reason to be on the 6th floor after noon should he encounter anyone.  He puts it down when he decides to get his rifle.  So he may have prepared some "hiding" place in advance and used it again on his way off the floor.  Isn't the better question always why his rifle was there in the first place? 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Michael Walton on August 11, 2022, 03:59:57 PM
I believe that when the rifle was found, the fact that the bolt was not closed and latched is a very strong indicator that the rifle was not fired that day.... Because if it had been fired, the shooter would have closed and latched the bolt by reflex action.   Don't believe it?.... Watch the video....   The man opens the bolt to extract and eject the spent round and then closes and latches the bolt, by reflex action, and re-aims the rifle and fires

The bolt was not closed and latched because it couldn't be closed and latched...And the reason it couldn't be closed and latched is because the yokel who hid the rifle beneath the pallet of boxes of books simply dropped the live round into the chamber.....and the carcano cannot be loaded in that manner.

Nice catch Walt. Very nice catch. To add further - and the breadcrumb shells - it's almost like they didn't want to hide a fully empty gun. So they just jammed one more bullet in there, perhaps to ensure that bullet matched the shells. And like the fake backyard photos, they got really greedy with those photos. It's one think to have a guy standing there with Lee's head pasted over it perhaps holding just the rifle. But no - they added in the pistol and even the left-wing newspapers too. Funnily enough, it goes against everything we know about Oswald.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 11, 2022, 05:12:37 PM
Nice catch Walt. Very nice catch. To add further - and the breadcrumb shells - it's almost like they didn't want to hide a fully empty gun. So they just jammed one more bullet in there, perhaps to ensure that bullet matched the shells. And like the fake backyard photos, they got really greedy with those photos. It's one think to have a guy standing there with Lee's head pasted over it perhaps holding just the rifle. But no - they added in the pistol and even the left-wing newspapers too. Funnily enough, it goes against everything we know about Oswald.

it's almost like they didn't want to hide a fully empty gun.

Yes sir, Mr Walton....  I believe that you're on the right track.   By leaving that live round in the rifle it lent a bit more credibility to the hoax the Lee was perpetrating.  ( He wanted Castro to believe that he had shot at JFK, just as he wanted Castro to believe that he had taken a shot at General Walker) 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 14, 2022, 06:52:51 PM
Yes, exactly. Great point. It makes no sense. Here we have a guy supposedly doing the deed up there, lets the shells fly all over the place [and one shell's rim was dented BTW] but takes the time to wipe down the gun and hide it. If there really had been someone up there and they took the shells too, think of the interesting ramifications that would entail about the official narrative. So I've always thought of the throw down shells as being like breadcrumbs for the story.

It reminds me of the Jeff MacDonald case - three strangers go into the home and cause all kinds of havoc on the women in there, leave old Jeff with a scratch, he supposedly fights them off, the coffee table is turned over, but all of the nick knacks on the curio shelf are undisturbed.

As for the gun itself, here's a variant of the rifle. I'm no gun expert but creaky to use. And per Pat Speer looking through the misaligned scope would have caused even more time per shot to look through it and find the target because of the warped view in a scope. He supposedly hit Kennedy in the back, loads, looks through the scope, scores a supposedly wild shot way off and downwind, loads and looks in it again and scores the head shot.

Sure, sure he did.


takes the time to wipe down the gun and hide it.

If Lee Oswald had been an assassin and he was firing that carcano from the sixth floor window.....WHEN would he have had the time needed to take the time to wipe down the gun and hide it.....?  You may recall that he was encountered in the second floor lunchroom, by officer Baker and Roy Truly just 90 seconds after the FIRST shot was fired. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 16, 2022, 08:35:17 PM
takes the time to wipe down the gun and hide it.

If Lee Oswald had been an assassin and he was firing that carcano from the sixth floor window.....WHEN would he have had the time needed to take the time to wipe down the gun and hide it.....?  You may recall that he was encountered in the second floor lunchroom, by officer Baker and Roy Truly just 90 seconds after the FIRST shot was fired.

When the WC attempted to re-enact the imaginary actions of Lee Oswald they started the stop watch at the sound of the FIRST shot.....  Then they imagined that all three shots had been fired in 6 seconds ( an impossible feat with that old carcano ) But, since they needed to subtract those six seconds from the time elapsed between the shooting and the time Baker and Truly saw Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom in reality they should have had Baker seeing that shadow in the lunchroom just 84 seconds after the shooting .....and that means Baker would have arrived at the second floor BEFORE Lee could have reached that lunchroom. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 17, 2022, 12:58:46 AM
When the WC attempted to re-enact the imaginary actions of Lee Oswald they started the stop watch at the sound of the FIRST shot.....  Then they imagined that all three shots had been fired in 6 seconds ( an impossible feat with that old carcano ) But, since they needed to subtract those six seconds from the time elapsed between the shooting and the time Baker and Truly saw Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom in reality they should have had Baker seeing that shadow in the lunchroom just 84 seconds after the shooting .....and that means Baker would have arrived at the second floor BEFORE Lee could have reached that lunchroom.
Re-enactments have Oswald taking 47 sec & 48 sec to reach the lunchroom (or at least the 2nd floor).
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 17, 2022, 02:07:46 AM
Re-enactments have Oswald taking 47 sec & 48 sec to reach the lunchroom (or at least the 2nd floor).

You're wrong Bubba....  Read the WR.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 17, 2022, 07:00:40 AM
According to Tom Aleya, the cameraman who accompanied the search team , There was a search made “floor by floor” all the way to the roof. They found nothing at first and then they were joined by Will Fritz about 18 minutes later and began a search on the 6th floor exclusively looking for a rifle since Mooney had discovered shells at the SN window.

Now that’s 7 floors plus the roof top also= 8 floors

According to Boones watch the MC rifle was found by himself and Weitzman  at 1:22 pm.

To find the rifle at some time AFTER Fritz joined the search team 18 minutes after they completed the  1-8 floor search and begin a SECOND search of the 6th floor, (and presuming the search team doesn’t even  enter TSBD until approx 4min post shots) then ..

1:22-12:34= 48 minutes

 Fritz not arriving until 18 minutes later to begin 2nd search of just the 6th floor puts the time at 30 minutes to have searched 8 floors = 30/8= only 3.5min/floor (average)

It may even be less than that.

I’m guessing it was another 10 minutes at least after Fritz was on the 6th floor that the rifle was found, which would reduce the average search time per floor to 20/8= 2.5 minutes per flloor in order that a rifle could be found at 1:22pm.

This seems a bit suspect to me that each floor was thoroughly searched in only 2.5 minutes/floor.

Therefore I have to question about the time when the MC rifle was found and if the 1:22pm time stamp is erroneous or false

If so, then the post planting of an MC rifle has some plausibility and might explain the anomalous bolt not locked, misaligned scope and location of the rifle at boxes close to the staircase and lapse of time between a partial photo taken and Tom Aleya allowed to start motion camera recording.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 17, 2022, 10:49:01 AM
According to Tom Aleya, the cameraman who accompanied the search team , There was a search made “floor by floor” all the way to the roof. They found nothing at first and then they were joined by Will Fritz about 18 minutes later and began a search on the 6th floor exclusively looking for a rifle since Mooney had discovered shells at the SN window.

Now that’s 7 floors plus the roof top also= 8 floors

According to Boones watch the MC rifle was found by himself and Weitzman  at 1:22 pm.

To find the rifle at some time AFTER Fritz joined the search team 18 minutes after they completed the  1-8 floor search and begin a SECOND search of the 6th floor, (and presuming the search team doesn’t even  enter TSBD until approx 4min post shots) then ..

1:22-12:34= 48 minutes

 Fritz not arriving until 18 minutes later to begin 2nd search of just the 6th floor puts the time at 30 minutes to have searched 8 floors = 30/8= only 3.5min/floor (average)

It may even be less than that.

I’m guessing it was another 10 minutes at least after Fritz was on the 6th floor that the rifle was found, which would reduce the average search time per floor to 20/8= 2.5 minutes per flloor in order that a rifle could be found at 1:22pm.

This seems a bit suspect to me that each floor was thoroughly searched in only 2.5 minutes/floor.

Therefore I have to question about the time when the MC rifle was found and if the 1:22pm time stamp is erroneous or false

If so, then the post planting of an MC rifle has some plausibility and might explain the anomalous bolt not locked, misaligned scope and location of the rifle at boxes close to the staircase and lapse of time between a partial photo taken and Tom Aleya allowed to start motion camera recording.


It appears that you must believe that there was only one team searching one floor at a time. Where do you come up with that idea?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 17, 2022, 11:51:24 AM
You're wrong Bubba....  Read the WR.

You're lying. Otherwise you'd be all-to-eager to help yourself disprove Iacoletti's 'Walt's Fabrications' list

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 17, 2022, 12:36:05 PM
You're wrong Bubba....  Read the WR.
There were 2 re-enactments -- 47 sec -- & 48 sec -- with no great rush.
U can ignore the WC 78 sec or whatever re-enactment -- according to their film Oswald was slowly mincing along & stopping to smell flowers.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 17, 2022, 02:01:57 PM
You're lying. Otherwise you'd be all-to-eager to help yourself disprove Iacoletti's 'Walt's Fabrications' list

It's not that hard to find -- even for somebody as ignorant as Chapman.

WCR p. 152:

A test was also conducted to determine the time required to walk from the southeast corner of the sixth floor to the second-floor lunchroom by stairway. Special Agent John Howlett of the Secret Service carried a rifle from the southeast corner of the sixth floor along the east aisle to the northeast corner. He placed the rifle on the floor near the site where Oswald’s rifle was actually found after the shooting. Then Howlett walked down the stairway to the second-floor landing and entered the lunchroom. The first test, run at normal walking pace, required 1 minute, 18 seconds; the second test, at a “fast walk” took 1 minute, 14 seconds. The second test followed immediately after the first. The only interval was the time necessary to ride in the elevator from the second to the sixth floor and walk back to the southeast corner. Howlett was not short winded at the end of either test run.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 17, 2022, 02:03:59 PM
There were 2 re-enactments -- 47 sec -- & 48 sec -- with no great rush.

By whom, and where?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 17, 2022, 02:20:00 PM
By whom, and where?

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 17, 2022, 02:31:07 PM
It's not that hard to find -- even for somebody as ignorant as Chapman.

WCR p. 152:

A test was also conducted to determine the time required to walk from the southeast corner of the sixth floor to the second-floor lunchroom by stairway. Special Agent John Howlett of the Secret Service carried a rifle from the southeast corner of the sixth floor along the east aisle to the northeast corner. He placed the rifle on the floor near the site where Oswald’s rifle was actually found after the shooting. Then Howlett walked down the stairway to the second-floor landing and entered the lunchroom. The first test, run at normal walking pace, required 1 minute, 18 seconds; the second test, at a “fast walk” took 1 minute, 14 seconds. The second test followed immediately after the first. The only interval was the time necessary to ride in the elevator from the second to the sixth floor and walk back to the southeast corner. Howlett was not short winded at the end of either test run.

In the FBI film, Howlett looked as if he was in no particular hurry. In fact, he might just as well have been walking on his knees.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 17, 2022, 03:36:31 PM
By whom, and where?
The museum have a video where they did it in 48 sec in an almost identical warehouse.
And recently i found that someone else had done some kind of test & took 47 sec.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 18, 2022, 12:03:29 AM
The museum have a video where they did it in 48 sec in an almost identical warehouse.
And recently i found that someone else had done some kind of test & took 47 sec.

Bull !.....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 18, 2022, 04:58:24 AM
A mediocre re-enactment---
Where were the stacks of boxes?... obstacle free it appeared.
Did the guy thoroughly wipe that rifle down? Was that really how the rifle was "hidden"?
Howard Brennan picked Lee Harvey Oswald out of a police lineup as a man “closely resembling” the one he saw, but he declined in his first interviews with police and Federal Bureau of Investigation agents to make a positive identification.
 
Quote
Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the sixth floor?
Mr. BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10.
Mr. BELIN. About what weight?
Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, at--I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds.
Mr. BELIN. A white man?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. Light colored clothes, more of a khaki color.

Even in testimony...Brennan failed to describe Oswald as he really looked that day.
I'm sure I read about witnesses who looked up at the shooter and said he apparently was in no hurry to disappear.
The re-enactment shows that practically anybody could boogie down 4 flights of stairs but does it really prove anything?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 18, 2022, 06:14:53 PM
A mediocre re-enactment---
Where were the stacks of boxes?... obstacle free it appeared.
Did the guy thoroughly wipe that rifle down? Was that really how the rifle was "hidden"?
Howard Brennan picked Lee Harvey Oswald out of a police lineup as a man “closely resembling” the one he saw, but he declined in his first interviews with police and Federal Bureau of Investigation agents to make a positive identification.
 
Even in testimony...Brennan failed to describe Oswald as he really looked that day.
I'm sure I read about witnesses who looked up at the shooter and said he apparently was in no hurry to disappear.
The re-enactment shows that practically anybody could boogie down 4 flights of stairs but does it really prove anything?

A mediocre re-enactment---

A mediocre re-enactment--- of a imaginary event.   

How is that relevant to the case....  There isn't one iota of solid information that the event ( the flight from the window to the lunchroom) actually happened.  And the " investigators " re-enact an imaginary event??
Isn't this the essence of insanity?   A person close to me has Alzhiemers disease and they imagine all kinds of irrational events.....  It would be insane to attempt to re-enact their imagined tale.   Example... The person mislays their glasses and they insist that someone came in and stole the glasses.   It would be silly to take them seriously and call the police....

The same thing applies to the tale of Lee Oswald fleeing the scene .....  Why would anybody take that tale seriously ??   Lee had told them that he was in the first floor lunchroom when the president passed by... and they had verified that he was telling the truth ..... so WHY perform the charade?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 18, 2022, 07:07:54 PM
A mediocre re-enactment---

A mediocre re-enactment--- of a imaginary event.   

How is that relevant to the case....  There isn't one iota of solid information that the event ( the flight from the window to the lunchroom) actually happened.  And the " investigators " re-enact an imaginary event??
Isn't this the essence of insanity?   A person close to me has Alzhiemers disease and they imagine all kinds of irrational events.....  It would be insane to attempt to re-enact their imagined tale.   Example... The person mislays their glasses and they insist that someone came in and stole the glasses.   It would be silly to take them seriously and call the police....

The same thing applies to the tale of Lee Oswald fleeing the scene .....  Why would anybody take that tale seriously ??   Lee had told them that he was in the first floor lunchroom when the president passed by... and they had verified that he was telling the truth ..... so WHY perform the charade?

Lee had told them that he was in the first floor lunchroom when the president passed by... and they had verified that he was telling the truth
_They did not verify that he was telling the truth. They only verified what he said. True-or-false is up to the court

The Gary Mack time test video advises that they used obstacles placed in the way of their tester
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 18, 2022, 07:42:26 PM
Lee had told them that he was in the first floor lunchroom when the president passed by... and they had verified that he was telling the truth
_They did not verify that he was telling the truth. They only verified what he said. True-or-false is up to the court

The Gary Mack time test video advises that they used obstacles placed in the way of their tester

Lee had told them that he was in the first floor lunchroom when the president passed by... and they had verified that he was telling the truth.
 
_They did not verify that he was telling the truth. They only verified what he said. True-or-false is up to the court

Captain Fritz scribbled note says:  " says was in 1st floor lunchroom when president passed by the building. Says two colored employees walked by the lunchroom as he was eating lunch. One called Junior and other short.  CHECK " 

The above is not verbatim but the last word "CHECK" is exactly what Captain Fritz wrote. 

That means he wanted to remind himself to check with Roy Truly to find the two colored employees to verify if Oswald was telling the truth. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 18, 2022, 08:01:02 PM
The museum have a video where they did it in 48 sec in an almost identical warehouse.
And recently i found that someone else had done some kind of test & took 47 sec.

What really happened is the Gang of 4 broke the whole thing down and created a relay team with each one of Alek Hidell, Uh-Oh Lee, Dirty Harvey, and the little prick himself takin' & breakin' a leg.. then shakin' & bakin' any idea that Oswald was in any way innocent

Don't forget the FBI Walking Dead film where they have this short little feller named 'Flash Howlett' who makes zombies look like Carl Lewis. I was half-expecting him to come across a picnic setting then merge into an ad for mattresses.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 18, 2022, 08:20:42 PM
Lee had told them that he was in the first floor lunchroom when the president passed by... and they had verified that he was telling the truth.
 
_They did not verify that he was telling the truth. They only verified what he said. True-or-false is up to the court

Captain Fritz scribbled note says:  " says was in 1st floor lunchroom when president passed by the building. Says two colored employees walked by the lunchroom as he was eating lunch. One called Junior and other short.  CHECK " 

The above is not verbatim but the last word "CHECK" is exactly what Captain Fritz wrote. 

That means he wanted to remind himself to check with Roy Truly to find the two colored employees to verify if Oswald was telling the truth.

People walking around to & fro, eating their lunch on the fly
Jarman, Arce and BOOMCLICKCLICK guy outside then getting back upstairs by going around the side/back/ and where is that Oswald/Jarman/Lunchroom again?

Oswald said he ate lunch with 'Junior' and Jarman denied it
Now there's an eyebrow-raiser
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 18, 2022, 09:22:14 PM
Lee had told them that he was in the first floor lunchroom when the president passed by... and they had verified that he was telling the truth
_They did not verify that he was telling the truth. They only verified what he said. True-or-false is up to the court

The Gary Mack time test video advises that they used obstacles placed in the way of their tester
Any time test would require that walking was always east-west or north-south only -- no short cuts.
No-one has dunn a test of the possible minimum time -- ie if an Olympic event -- (1) u would need 200' of L (with at least one 90deg corner), (2) plus say 4 lots of 20' of L between flights of stairs (with another 16 by 90deg corners)(once again no short-cuts), (3) plus 8 half-stairs of 9 steps each (72 steps)(going down) -- (4) plus a 10' detour for hiding the Carcano.
Total H dist is say 470' -- at 10'/sec (6.82 mph) thats 47 sec -- i think the 48 sec fast walk would drop to less than half that if running.
The SS re-enactment of 78 sec or whatever it was, is meaningless (6.0'/sec)(4.1 mph) -- not much better than telling us that a snail would need a few days. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52295492164_bf35c99b7a_m.jpg[/img]]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52295492164_bf35c99b7a_m.jpg(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52295492164_bf35c99b7a_m.jpg) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52295492164_bf35c99b7a_m.jpg[img)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2022, 01:43:55 AM
Different staircase that doesn't go out onto the floor, LOL
Fitness instructor, LOL
Just sets the rifle on the floor, LOL
Starts timing after the last shot rather than the first shot, LOL
Just barely gets to the doorway, LOL

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2022, 01:46:13 AM
Oswald said he ate lunch with 'Junior' and Jarman denied it
Now there's an eyebrow-raiser

You don't know what Oswald said.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 19, 2022, 01:59:12 AM
Different staircase that doesn't go out onto the floor, LOL
Fitness instructor, LOL
Just sets the rifle on the floor, LOL
Starts timing after the last shot rather than the first shot, LOL
Just barely gets to the doorway, LOL
Oswald fired 2 shots -- he was already standing back from the window at Z313 when he saw Hickey blow jfk's brains out.
I will start the timing after the first shot if Baker starts his timing after the first shot.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2022, 02:55:20 AM
Oswald fired 2 shots -- he was already standing back from the window at Z313 when he saw Hickey blow jfk's brains out.

Cool story, bro.

Quote
I will start the timing after the first shot if Baker starts his timing after the first shot.

He did.

Mr. BAKER - We went back and made two trial runs on that, and---
Mr. BELIN - Was that on Friday, March 20?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds, and--
Mr. DULLES - Will you say from what time to what time, from the last shot?
Mr. BAKER - From the last shot.
Mr. BELIN - The first shot.
Mr. DULLES - The first shot?
Mr. BAKER - The first shot.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 19, 2022, 07:36:55 AM
Cool story, bro.

He did.

Mr. BAKER - We went back and made two trial runs on that, and---
Mr. BELIN - Was that on Friday, March 20?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds, and--
Mr. DULLES - Will you say from what time to what time, from the last shot?
Mr. BAKER - From the last shot.
Mr. BELIN - The first shot.
Mr. DULLES - The first shot?
Mr. BAKER - The first shot.
Ok. Next question.
When does Baker reckon that the first shot was fired?
In other words -- where was jfk when the first shot was fired?
In other words -- where was Baker when the first shot was fired?
Spoiler alert -- he has not got a clue. In other words -- he will say it was at about Z150 -- or, praps even at about Z218.
If he likes Z150, & if the first shot was actually at (pseudo) Z113 (i reckon that it was at Z113)(Holland said Z103 or something like that), then that adds 37 Z frames to his timeline (say 2 sec).
If he likes Z218 then that adds 105 Z frames (say 5.8 sec)(instead of the 2 sec).
Or if Holland was correct then the 5.8 sec is 6.3 sec.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 19, 2022, 02:06:57 PM
You don't know what Oswald said.

A certain cop does

Oh, wait.. everybody's lying
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 19, 2022, 02:46:38 PM
Different staircase that doesn't go out onto the floor, LOL
Fitness instructor, LOL
Just sets the rifle on the floor, LOL
Starts timing after the last shot rather than the first shot, LOL
Just barely gets to the doorway, LOL

Different staircase that doesn't go out onto the floor, LOL
_ so rebuild the entire building
Fitness instructor, LOL
... and?
Just sets the rifle on the floor, LOL
... and?
Starts timing after the last shot rather than the first shot, LOL
_ The test was the time it takes to get from the window to the non-Dr Pepper room
Just barely gets to the doorway, LOL
... and?

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 19, 2022, 02:59:00 PM
Oswald fired 2 shots -- he was already standing back from the window at Z313 when he saw Hickey blow jfk's brains out.
I will start the timing after the first shot if Baker starts his timing after the first shot.

BOOM>Click-Click guy informed that he heard 3 BOOM>Click-Clicks
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 19, 2022, 04:04:57 PM
A certain cop does

What cop would that be, clown-boy?

Quote
Oh, wait.. everybody's lying

Everybody?  So do you think Bookhout was lying when he said "Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period"?  Or are you just cherry-picking something you heard somewhere and stating it as a fact, as usual?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 19, 2022, 04:09:37 PM
People walking around to & fro, eating their lunch on the fly
Jarman, Arce and BOOMCLICKCLICK guy outside then getting back upstairs by going around the side/back/ and where is that Oswald/Jarman/Lunchroom again?

Oswald said he ate lunch with 'Junior' and Jarman denied it
Now there's an eyebrow-raiser

Oswald said he ate lunch with 'Junior' and Jarman denied it

Where do you get this BS?.....   Neither Hosty nor Fritz jotted down such an important piece of information.

If Lee had told them that he had ate lunch with Junior Jarmam both Fritz and Hosty would have noted that critical piece of information and then checked with Jarman to verify or refute Lee's statement.

Lee DID tell Fritz and Hosty that he had seen Junior and "a short statured" colored walk by the 1st floor lunchroom as he was eating his lunch.  ......And they verified that they had in fact walked by the lunchroom at about 12:27.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 27, 2022, 06:33:34 AM
Here's the deal.... The rifle found in the Texas School Book Depository Building was 40.2″ long and was the Carcano Fucile Modello 91/38.
This rifle weighs 7.44 lb.
No one has ever replicated the act of carrying ...unnoticed by any others... this amount of hardware in a flimsy paper sack [as described by Mr Frazier] ... the only person that the Warren gang managed to bully into half-halfheartedly fingering Lee.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 27, 2022, 04:20:25 PM
Oswald said he ate lunch with 'Junior' and Jarman denied it

Where do you get this BS?.....   Neither Hosty nor Fritz jotted down such an important piece of information.

Secret Service agent Thomas Kelley wrote:

    "He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him.
     He described one of them as ‘Junior’, a colored boy, and the other
     was a little short negro boy."     (WR, p.626)

Quote
If Lee had told them that he had ate lunch with Junior Jarmam both Fritz and Hosty would have noted that critical piece of information and then checked with Jarman to verify or refute Lee's statement.

Lee DID tell Fritz and Hosty that he had seen Junior and "a short statured" colored walk by the 1st floor lunchroom as he was eating his lunch.

FBI agent James Bookhout, wrote:

    "OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the
     lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled
     possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this
     period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called ‘Junior’
     and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall
     but whom he would be able to recognize."     (WR, p.622)

Both Jarman and Norman kept their lunches on a shelf inside one of the windows in the Domino Room ("I put it in the window" and "I left it in the window of the domino room"). Oswald is clearly telling Bookhout about the "lunch room" and that he saw Jarman and Norman "walking through the room" to where they routinely stored their sandwiches.

Oswald thought he was smarter than the authorities he hated. I think it was only when he was in custody--having not been killed by police--that he gave any thought to an "alibi".  Oswald, on the sixth floor, heard Jarman and Norman arrive below the open window of the Sniper's Nest and figured they must have come from the Domino Room. Lil'Lee imagined they had just finished eating, and he thought his "alibi" would be helped by claiming he saw them walk through to get their lunches (as he knew they did so routinely). Maybe Oswald figured a white man's word in a Texas court would hold up against that of two black men.

Quote
......And they verified that they had in fact walked by the lunchroom at about 12:27.

No, they didn't. The closest is Jarman saying: "That was about 12:25 or 12:28."
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 27, 2022, 04:41:12 PM
Here's the deal.... The rifle found in the Texas School Book Depository Building was 40.2″ long and was the Carcano Fucile Modello 91/38.
This rifle weighs 7.44 lb.
No one has ever replicated the act of carrying ...unnoticed by any others... this amount of hardware in a flimsy paper sack [as described by Mr Frazier] ... the only person that the Warren gang managed to bully into half-halfheartedly fingering Lee.

The weight you've posted is for a Carcano without a scope....  I believe that CE 139 weighed nearly 9 pounds.

The reason that the weight is important is because the official tale would have us believe that skinny Lee Oswald had a grip like bench vise.    He was able to hold that 9 pound rifle by the butt, with his right hand, while he inserted it between the boxes of books (As seen in the official DPD in situ photo)    He would have had to use his left hand to balance himself as he leaned across the row of boxes.

Try this:.... Try to hold 40 inch long piece of 2X4 lumber  ( approx 2 lbs) , by the end, with one hand and place it beneath a coffee table....       This simple experiment should provide you with verification for my claim that Lee Oswald DID NOT place that 9 pond rifle into the crevice between the boxes of books as it is seen in the official DPD police photo. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 27, 2022, 05:04:26 PM
Both Jarman and Norman kept their lunches on a shelf inside one of the windows in the Domino Room ("I put it in the window" and "I left it in the window of the domino room"). Oswald is clearly telling Bookhout about the "lunch room" and that he saw Jarman and Norman "walking through the room" to where they routinely stored their sandwiches.

There’s nothing “clear” about that. You’re just applying your own spin.

That would be exceedingly stupid given Norman and Jarman got their lunch sacks at noon or before.

Quote
Oswald thought he was smarter than the authorities he hated. I think it was only when he was in custody--having not been killed by police--that he gave any thought to an "alibi".  Oswald, on the sixth floor, heard Jarman and Norman arrive below the open window of the Sniper's Nest and figured they must have come from the Domino Room. Lil'Lee imagined they had just finished eating, and he thought his "alibi" would be helped by claiming he saw them walk through to get their lunches (as he knew they did so routinely). Maybe Oswald figured a white man's word in a Texas court would hold up against that of two black men.

Another cool, fanciful story, bro.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 27, 2022, 05:05:04 PM
The weight you've posted is for a Carcano without a scope....  I believe that CE 139 weighed nearly 9 pounds.

The reason that the weight is important is because the official tale would have us believe that skinny Lee Oswald had a grip like bench vise.    He was able to hold that 9 pound rifle by the butt, with his right hand, while he inserted it between the boxes of books (As seen in the official DPD in situ photo)    He would have had to use his left hand to balance himself as he leaned across the row of boxes.

Try this:.... Try to hold 40 inch long piece of 2X4 lumber  ( approx 2 lbs) , by the end, with one hand and place it beneath a coffee table....       This simple experiment should provide you with verification for my claim that Lee Oswald DID NOT place that 9 pond rifle into the crevice between the boxes of books as it is seen in the official DPD police photo.

(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339279/m1/1/med_res/)

Looks like after the rifle was placed on the floor, the box(es) covering the gap slid over it when Oswald either intentionally slid it or inadvertently pushed it when he was straightening up.

You really think folks are so dumb they would believe the gap in the Crime Lab in-situ photos couldn't have been more open when the rifle was placed there?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 27, 2022, 05:26:41 PM
There’s nothing “clear” about that. You’re just applying your own spin.

That would be exceedingly stupid given Norman and Jarman got their lunch sacks at noon or before.

Another cool, fanciful story, bro.

Another cool, fanciful story, bro.

A cool story but devoid of the facts....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 27, 2022, 06:04:37 PM
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339279/m1/1/med_res/)

Looks like after the rifle was placed on the floor, the box(es) covering the gap slid over it when Oswald either intentionally slid it or inadvertently pushed it when he was straightening up.

You really think folks are so dumb they would believe the gap in the Crime Lab in-situ photos couldn't have been more open when the rifle was placed there?

You really think folks are so dumb they would believe the gap in the Crime Lab in-situ photos couldn't have been more open when the rifle was placed there?

Do you really believe that Lee Oswald had the ability to grip that 9 pound rifle by the butt in a vice like grip, and place it where the DPD in situ photo shows it?    It doesn't make any difference if the boxes were pushed over the rifle after it was placed on the floor or those boxes were there when the rifle was inserted into the opening.....It would still have had to have been held by the butt with the right hand .... Which is impossible, because there isn't a man alive who could grip that smooth surface and hold the rifle in the horizontal position.

P.S. Is the corner of the box that is above the stock of the rifle, sitting on top of the box that is to the right of the rifle? 

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 27, 2022, 07:46:05 PM
The weight you've posted is for a Carcano without a scope....  I believe that CE 139 weighed nearly 9 pounds.

The reason that the weight is important is because the official tale would have us believe that skinny Lee Oswald had a grip like bench vise.    He was able to hold that 9 pound rifle by the butt, with his right hand, while he inserted it between the boxes of books (As seen in the official DPD in situ photo)    He would have had to use his left hand to balance himself as he leaned across the row of boxes.

Try this:.... Try to hold 40 inch long piece of 2X4 lumber  ( approx 2 lbs) , by the end, with one hand and place it beneath a coffee table....       This simple experiment should provide you with verification for my claim that Lee Oswald DID NOT place that 9 pond rifle into the crevice between the boxes of books as it is seen in the official DPD police photo.


According to Robert Frazier’s testimony, the rifle with the scope (and, I believe, strap) weighs 8- pounds. Watch the secret service reenactment and see how the agent casually walked across the sixth floor and sets the wooden rifle prop into the space between the boxes. The only thing that he doesn’t do is push the two boxes over the opening. That could be very quickly done. No problem…
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 27, 2022, 08:30:57 PM

According to Robert Frazier’s testimony, the rifle with the scope (and, I believe, strap) weighs 8- pounds. Watch the secret service reenactment and see how the agent casually walked across the sixth floor and sets the wooden rifle prop into the space between the boxes. The only thing that he doesn’t do is push the two boxes over the opening. That could be very quickly done. No problem…

Mr Collins, do you really believe that that light weight piece of dimension 1X4 is an accurate substitute for the 9 pound carcano?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 27, 2022, 08:55:21 PM
Mr Collins, do you really believe that that light weight piece of dimension 1X4 is an accurate substitute for the 9 pound carcano?

8-pound Carcano, not 9.

No, of course I don’t believe it is an accurate substitute. However, it does serve the purpose well enough to make the point that if the boxes were slid over after the rifle was set down on the floor in a similar manner to the one in the reenactment, then your silly idea of having to hold the rifle by the butt end and inserting it into a covered opening from the west end is simply not relevant. In other words, there is a viable alternative to your theory.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 27, 2022, 09:21:52 PM
Here's the deal.... The rifle found in the Texas School Book Depository Building was 40.2″ long and was the Carcano Fucile Modello 91/38.
This rifle weighs 7.44 lb.
No one has ever replicated the act of carrying ...unnoticed by any others... this amount of hardware in a flimsy paper sack [as described by Mr Frazier] ... the only person that the Warren gang managed to bully into half-halfheartedly fingering Lee.
Perhaps review the above post---the act of carrying an 8.3 pound parcel [unnoticed] into the bldg to begin with.
So go get a grocery sack...put a full gallon of water...=8.3 in it and see how it feels when you pick it up.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 27, 2022, 09:22:54 PM
8-pound Carcano, not 9.

No, of course I don’t believe it is an accurate substitute. However, it does serve the purpose well enough to make the point that if the boxes were slid over after the rifle was set down on the floor in a similar manner to the one in the reenactment, then your silly idea of having to hold the rifle by the butt end and inserting it into a covered opening from the west end is simply not relevant. In other words, there is a viable alternative to your theory.

 it does serve the purpose well enough to make the point that if the boxes were slid over after the rifle was set down on the floor.

So gravity was in aberrance there on the sixth floor?

What do you think the effect of gravity would have had on the box that is shown above the stock of the rifle ?...

If that box of books had been slid across the gap what would have prevented the south edge of the box from falling into the gap?   
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 27, 2022, 09:40:03 PM
it does serve the purpose well enough to make the point that if the boxes were slid over after the rifle was set down on the floor.

So gravity was in aberrance there on the sixth floor?

What do you think the effect of gravity would have had on the box that is shown above the stock of the rifle ?...

If that box of books had been slid across the gap what would have prevented the south edge of the box from falling into the gap?   


If the weight of the contents of the boxes was evenly distributed, then the boxes would be able to be slid and cantilevered so that almost half of the boxes are overhanging before the south edges start to fall. It appears to me that the south edges are barely touching the boxes below the south edges. So, if the south ends of the boxes happen to be heavier than the north ends of the boxes (due to uneven weight distribution), then using both hands (one on each end) to support the boxes while sliding them would be necessary.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 27, 2022, 09:57:35 PM

If the weight of the contents of the boxes was evenly distributed, then the boxes would be able to be slid and cantilevered so that almost half of the boxes are overhanging before the south edges start to fall. It appears to me that the south edges are barely touching the boxes below the south edges. So, if the south ends of the boxes happen to be heavier than the north ends of the boxes (due to uneven weight distribution), then using both hands (one on each end) to support the boxes while sliding them would be necessary.

Question....What is preventing the south edge of the box from sliding into the gap?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 27, 2022, 10:38:27 PM
8-pound Carcano, not 9.

No, of course I don’t believe it is an accurate substitute. However, it does serve the purpose well enough to make the point that if the boxes were slid over after the rifle was set down on the floor in a similar manner to the one in the reenactment, then your silly idea of having to hold the rifle by the butt end and inserting it into a covered opening from the west end is simply not relevant. In other words, there is a viable alternative to your theory.

I think it's David Von Pein who said Walt's Rube Goldberg constructs in the NW corner were on the order of building the Great Pyramid.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 28, 2022, 12:37:27 AM
I think it's David Von Pein who said Walt's Rube Goldberg constructs in the NW corner were on the order of building the Great Pyramid.

I'm not quite old enough to have been the engineer who designed the pyramids....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 28, 2022, 12:50:07 AM
I'm not quite old enough to have been the engineer who designed the pyramids....

Right. The Winchester House is more you.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 28, 2022, 01:06:04 AM
Question....What is preventing the south edge of the box from sliding into the gap?


It appears to me that it is touching the box below the south edge such that box could be supporting it. However, it also appears to be overhanging less than half way of the north/south dimension of the upper box. Therefore, depending upon the weight distribution of the contents of the box, it could be that the support from the lower box is not even necessary due to a cantilever. Either way, it is being supported adequately to prevent it from sliding into the gap.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 28, 2022, 01:37:27 AM

It appears to me that it is touching the box below the south edge such that box could be supporting it. However, it also appears to be overhanging less than half way of the north/south dimension of the upper box. Therefore, depending upon the weight distribution of the contents of the box, it could be that the support from the lower box is not even necessary due to a cantilever. Either way, it is being supported adequately to prevent it from sliding into the gap.

it is being supported adequately to prevent it from sliding into the gap.

Yes, it does appear that the SE corner of the box is on top of the box on the south side of the gap...But if that box had been slid across the gap it would not be in that position....  I know that your smart enough to know the box would have started falling into the gap as soon as it was no longer supported by the nox on the north side of the gap.  That's elementary physics...... 

So this photo has to have been staged....

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 28, 2022, 01:56:21 AM
it is being supported adequately to prevent it from sliding into the gap.

Yes, it does appear that the SE corner of the box is on top of the box on the south side of the gap...But if that box had been slid across the gap it would not be in that position....  I know that your smart enough to know the box would have started falling into the gap as soon as it was no longer supported by the nox on the north side of the gap.  That's elementary physics...... 

So this photo has to have been staged....


You might want to try an experiment with cantilevers. The box doesn’t start falling until there’s more weight unsupported than there’s weight still being supported by the box to the north side of the gap. And even if you think that is the case (it doesn’t appear that way to me, but we don’t know the weight distribution of the contents of the box. So, it’s difficult to say for certain.), there’s no reason why the sniper couldn’t use both hands (one on the north end and the other hand on the south end) to slide the box over the gap. This technique would allow him to temporarily support the south end of the box until it contacts the box below on the south side of the gap.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 28, 2022, 01:59:11 AM
Remember, all of this is using up precious seconds from the 75 that you have.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 28, 2022, 02:05:18 AM
Remember, all of this is using up precious seconds from the 75 that you have.

You don’t know exactly how many seconds that elapsed. LOL.  :D   ;D   8)   BS:   ::)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 28, 2022, 04:04:20 AM
That’s the best estimate from the guy who actually did the running. But I can see why you want to ignore things that don’t fit the story you want to believe.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 28, 2022, 05:40:03 AM

So this photo has to have been staged....
The whole story is staged  :-\
There was a Stephen King movie about someone going back in time and stopping the assassination.
I didn't see it but remember this frame of "Wes Frazier" and "Lee" strolling to work.
Buell has a lunch pail and Oswald has a sack lunch in his left hand and a parcel under his right arm.
He is carrying the parcel like it's a loaf of french bread. Actually... Frazier was about 6' 2" and Oswald was 5' 9"----

(https://i.postimg.cc/xThtZxsY/11-22-63-buell-oawald-walking.png)

It looks like the cop in the background might be going for his gun.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 28, 2022, 10:37:52 AM
The whole story is staged  :-\
There was a Stephen King movie about someone going back in time and stopping the assassination.
I didn't see it but remember this frame of "Wes Frazier" and "Lee" strolling to work.
Buell has a lunch pail and Oswald has a sack lunch in his left hand and a parcel under his right arm.
He is carrying the parcel like it's a loaf of french bread. Actually... Frazier was about 6' 2" and Oswald was 5' 9"----

(https://i.postimg.cc/xThtZxsY/11-22-63-buell-oawald-walking.png)

It looks like the cop in the background might be going for his gun.

LOL

King's movie is not meant to be a whodunit
So stop wetting yourself
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 28, 2022, 11:37:52 AM
That’s the best estimate from the guy who actually did the running. But I can see why you want to ignore things that don’t fit the story you want to believe.

Estimate? You mean no one timed him?
Another guy had stopwatches on his arse
Got 48sec
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 28, 2022, 12:13:10 PM
That’s the best estimate from the guy who actually did the running. But I can see why you want to ignore things that don’t fit the story you want to believe.


Now, you are jumping to conclusions. No one said it didn’t fit. I just couldn’t resist the opportunity to give you some of your own “medicine”.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 28, 2022, 01:45:53 PM

Another guy had stopwatches on his arse
Got 48sec
It would take you longer than that just to figure out which way is down.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 28, 2022, 02:31:22 PM
Remember, all of this is using up precious seconds from the 75 that you have.

The box doesn’t start falling until there’s more weight unsupported than there’s weight still being supported by the box to the north side of the gap. And even if you think that is the case (it doesn’t appear that way to me, but we don’t know the weight distribution of the contents of the box. So, it’s difficult to say for certain.), there’s no reason why the sniper couldn’t use both hands (one on the north end and the other hand on the south end) to slide the box over the gap. This technique would allow him to temporarily support the south end of the box until it contacts the box below on the south side of the gap.

"Remember, all of this is using up precious seconds from the 75 that you have."

Good Point!.... John.   But Mr Collins is desperately trying to prop up the the official DPD in situ photo.

there’s no reason why the sniper couldn’t use both hands (one on the north end and the other hand on the south end) to slide the box over the gap.

WHY would he care ...Charlie?   A tilted box in the gap would conceal the rifle just as well a level box across the gap.  There's no doubt that this photo was staged.  It's a fake created by the DPD to give the illusion that Lee Oswald dashed by that area and hastily dumped the rifle as he fled.   It's a photographic lie!  The rifle was found LYING ON THE FLOOR beneath the pallet..... And Tom Alyea's photo shows detective Day picking up the rifle by the leather strap, OFF THE FLOOR , ....   

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Michael Walton on August 28, 2022, 02:52:48 PM
LOL

King's movie is not meant to be a whodunit
So stop wetting yourself

Wow, Bill. I mean wow. You're one of the most fanciful writers on this forum. But now you're going, what - real-deal here - and calling out someone who's also being fanciful when discussing a fanciful, fictional story produced by no less than Stephen King? I mean...wow.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Michael Walton on August 28, 2022, 03:01:58 PM
I've been thinking a lot about the well-hidden gun between the boxes and the spent shells found in the sniper's nest. And it makes absolutely no sense. If Oswald didn't want to get caught, how did he know he had "x" amount of time to make his escape? If his plan was to try to leave the building undetected or blend in with the crowd [e.g., going down and getting a Coke], he had to have known it would take time to supposedly wipe the gun down [but supposedly leave a palm print on the box - oops!]. He had to know it would take time to carefully hide the gun between the boxes. Yet, he leaves three spent shells in the sniper's nest [yet one of the shells was supposedly bent at the lip, making it unworkable in the gun - oops again].

And if he was a crazed assassin trying to make a statement about what he had supposedly done, why all the subterfuge? If he shot at Walker, why all the subterfuge there?

The hiding of the gun and leaving the shells is illogical and makes absolutely no sense.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 28, 2022, 03:02:11 PM
The box doesn’t start falling until there’s more weight unsupported than there’s weight still being supported by the box to the north side of the gap. And even if you think that is the case (it doesn’t appear that way to me, but we don’t know the weight distribution of the contents of the box. So, it’s difficult to say for certain.), there’s no reason why the sniper couldn’t use both hands (one on the north end and the other hand on the south end) to slide the box over the gap. This technique would allow him to temporarily support the south end of the box until it contacts the box below on the south side of the gap.

"Remember, all of this is using up precious seconds from the 75 that you have."

Good Point!.... John.   But Mr Collins is desperately trying to prop up the the official DPD in situ photo.

there’s no reason why the sniper couldn’t use both hands (one on the north end and the other hand on the south end) to slide the box over the gap.

WHY would he care ...Charlie?   A tilted box in the gap would conceal the rifle just as well a level box across the gap.  There's no doubt that this photo was staged.  It's a fake created by the DPD to give the illusion that Lee Oswald dashed by that area and hastily dumped the rifle as he fled.   It's a photographic lie!  The rifle was found LYING ON THE FLOOR beneath the pallet..... And Tom Alyea's photo shows detective Day picking up the rifle by the leather strap, OFF THE FLOOR , ....



WHY would he care…


Who says he cared? (But I do think that a tilted box would visually stick out and perhaps draw unwanted attention to it.) It appears to me that there is still more of the box being supported by the box to the north than there is sticking out to the south. In my opinion, a simple nudge with a knee would be enough to push the box over the top of the rifle. That might take a second or two. Of course, all of this is conjecture. Thanks to Jack Ruby, no one will ever know this type of detail for certain. Unless one wants to visit LHO in hell and ask him.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Michael Walton on August 28, 2022, 03:06:27 PM
I've been thinking a lot about the well-hidden gun between the boxes and the spent shells found in the sniper's nest. And it makes absolutely no sense. If Oswald didn't want to get caught, how did he know he had "x" amount of time to make his escape? If his plan was to try to leave the building undetected or blend in with the crowd [e.g., going down and getting a Coke], he had to have known it would take time to supposedly wipe the gun down [but supposedly leave a palm print on the box - oops!]. He had to know it would take time to carefully hide the gun between the boxes. Yet, he leaves three spent shells in the sniper's nest [yet one of the shells was supposedly bent at the lip, making it unworkable in the gun - oops again].

And if he was a crazed assassin trying to make a statement about what he had supposedly done, why all the subterfuge? If he shot at Walker, why all the subterfuge there?

The hiding of the gun and leaving the shells is illogical and makes absolutely no sense.

Bumping this because it's important and no one on here ever wants to talk about logic here.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 28, 2022, 03:14:40 PM
Now, you are jumping to conclusions. No one said it didn’t fit. I just couldn’t resist the opportunity to give you some of your own “medicine”.

Except I only say that when somebody makes a claim that has no evidence whatsoever.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 28, 2022, 03:16:09 PM
Estimate? You mean no one timed him?
Another guy had stopwatches on his arse
Got 48sec

Another guy, another building, another staircase.

LOL
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 28, 2022, 03:22:47 PM
Unless one wants to visit LHO in hell and ask him.

Won’t you be surprised when you get there and discover he’s not there?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 28, 2022, 03:24:44 PM
Bumping this because it's important and no one on here ever wants to talk about logic here.

There is a lot more that makes no sense at all. If Oswald was the assassin and he managed to get down to the 2nd floor, why not simply turn right, walk through the office space and out of the building? Why stop in the 2nd floor lunchroom?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 28, 2022, 03:25:04 PM
Except I only say that when somebody makes a claim that has no evidence whatsoever.


LOL   :D
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 28, 2022, 03:36:04 PM
Bumping this because it's important and no one on here ever wants to talk about logic here.

The LN credo is that it doesn’t matter because they know Oswald did it. Whatever it takes, Oswald could have done it. And if he could have done it, then he did do it. QED
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 28, 2022, 04:02:17 PM
The LN credo is that it doesn’t matter because they know Oswald did it. Whatever it takes, Oswald could have done it. And if he could have done it, then he did do it. QED

Not our bad if he played in America
They have a 'Designated Hitter'
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 28, 2022, 04:53:30 PM
There is a lot more that makes no sense at all. If Oswald was the assassin and he managed to get down to the 2nd floor, why not simply turn right, walk through the office space and out of the building? Why stop in the 2nd floor lunchroom?

If Oswald was the assassin and he managed to get down to the 2nd floor, why not simply turn right, walk through the office space and out of the building? Why stop in the 2nd floor lunchroom?

Excellent point....Mr Walton.

If lee was the panicky fleeing killer as LBJ's special committee presented to us....Then he certainly would have fled through the door to the office area and then down the stairs and out of the building. 

The fact that Baker and Truly encountered Lee in the lunchroom calmly drinking a coke is strong evidence that he had no idea that JFK had just been murdered in front of the TSBD.       
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Michael Walton on August 28, 2022, 05:17:11 PM
There is a lot more that makes no sense at all. If Oswald was the assassin and he managed to get down to the 2nd floor, why not simply turn right, walk through the office space and out of the building? Why stop in the 2nd floor lunchroom?

Yes, Martin. Exactly and beautifully said. I know I sometimes use comparisons of other crimes to make a point. But it'd be like Tim McVeigh parking the van full of explosives next to the building in OKC, then going into the actual building to buy a soft drink in there, drinking it, perhaps then go into the restroom to take a xxxx, and then KABOOM!

I'm joking, of course, but the logic for Oswald's so-called actions make no sense that day. Another one - the getting on the bus, getting out and starting to get into a cab but letting a lady take that cab first are not the actions of a so-called madman who supposedly just murdered the president.

And another one - as he returns to his rooming house and decides to go see a picture show, he somehow takes a very long roundabout way to the theater, where he supposedly runs into Tippit and murders him. All he'd have to have done is walk straight down the street from his rooming house and turn right to the movie house.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 28, 2022, 05:38:16 PM
Yes, Martin. Exactly and beautifully said. I know I sometimes use comparisons of other crimes to make a point. But it'd be like Tim McVeigh parking the van full of explosives next to the building in OKC, then going into the actual building to buy a soft drink in there, drinking it, perhaps then go into the restroom to take a xxxx, and then KABOOM!

I'm joking, of course, but the logic for Oswald's so-called actions make no sense that day. Another one - the getting on the bus, getting out and starting to get into a cab but letting a lady take that cab first are not the actions of a so-called madman who supposedly just murdered the president.

And another one - as he returns to his rooming house and decides to go see a picture show, he somehow takes a very long roundabout way to the theater, where he supposedly runs into Tippit and murders him. All he'd have to have done is walk straight down the street from his rooming house and turn right to the movie house.

he returns to his rooming house and decides to go see a picture show, he somehow takes a very long roundabout way to the theater, where he supposedly runs into Tippit and murders him. All he'd have to have done is walk straight down the street from his rooming house and turn right to the movie house.


He seems to have had a bus transfer in his pocket when he left the rooming house, so he wouldn't have had to walk to the theater. He could have caught the bus and used that transfer ticket.  But perhaps the transfer was not valid for the Beckley Ave bus, so he simply paid the fare and rode the bus to the theater as he told captain Fritz .
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 28, 2022, 05:39:25 PM
Yes, Martin. Exactly and beautifully said. I know I sometimes use comparisons of other crimes to make a point. But it'd be like Tim McVeigh parking the van full of explosives next to the building in OKC, then going into the actual building to buy a soft drink in there, drinking it, perhaps then go into the restroom to take a xxxx, and then KABOOM!

I'm joking, of course, but the logic for Oswald's so-called actions make no sense that day. Another one - the getting on the bus, getting out and starting to get into a cab but letting a lady take that cab first are not the actions of a so-called madman who supposedly just murdered the president.

Then again, why not again wait for a city bus to take him home. Cheaper and he's supposedly in no hurry. Interesting he can't wait on the bus he was originally on. Why not? Oswald has lots of time and is no hurry.

Quote
And another one - as he returns to his rooming house and decides to go see a picture show,

What makes you think Oswald decided at the rooming house to go see a movie? Because Oswald said so? Even if so, why take his handgun with him and ditch his jacket before reaching the theater?

Quote
he somehow takes a very long roundabout way to the theater, where he supposedly runs into Tippit and murders him. All he'd have to have done is walk straight down the street from his rooming house and turn right to the movie house.

"Supposedly"? Absent Hollywood-quality film of the Tippit murder, what would it take to make you think it was Oswald? And if it's such a short walk from his rooming house to the theater, why does it take him such a long time to arrive at the theater?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 28, 2022, 06:32:18 PM
What makes you think Oswald decided at the rooming house to go see a movie? Because Oswald said so? Even if so, why take his handgun with him and ditch his jacket before reaching the theater?

There's no evidence that he "took his handgun" or "ditched his jacket".

Quote
"Supposedly"? Absent Hollywood-quality film of the Tippit murder, what would it take to make you think it was Oswald?

Reliable, conclusive evidence rather than made-up stories and propaganda.

Quote
And if it's such a short walk from his rooming house to the theater, why does it take him such a long time to arrive at the theater?

Both Burroughs and Davis put him at the theater prior to 1:20.  That's not such a long time.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Martin Weidmann on August 28, 2022, 06:46:34 PM
Then again, why not again wait for a city bus to take him home. Cheaper and he's supposedly in no hurry. Interesting he can't wait on the bus he was originally on. Why not? Oswald has lots of time and is no hurry.

What makes you think Oswald decided at the rooming house to go see a movie? Because Oswald said so? Even if so, why take his handgun with him and ditch his jacket before reaching the theater?

"Supposedly"? Absent Hollywood-quality film of the Tippit murder, what would it take to make you think it was Oswald? And if it's such a short walk from his rooming house to the theater, why does it take him such a long time to arrive at the theater?


Then again, why not again wait for a city bus to take him home. Cheaper and he's supposedly in no hurry. Interesting he can't wait on the bus he was originally on. Why not? Oswald has lots of time and is no hurry.

Duh, he supposedly was just on a bus that got stuck in traffic. If that happened to one bus, it will happen to others as well. A taxi is far more flexible. And, I know a big deal was made about Oswald never taking a taxi, but whoever told that story had no way of knowing that, unless he was with Oswald 24/7.

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Michael Walton on August 28, 2022, 07:58:05 PM

he returns to his rooming house and decides to go see a picture show, he somehow takes a very long roundabout way to the theater, where he supposedly runs into Tippit and murders him. All he'd have to have done is walk straight down the street from his rooming house and turn right to the movie house.


He seems to have had a bus transfer in his pocket when he left the rooming house, so he wouldn't have had to walk to the theater. He could have caught the bus and used that transfer ticket.  But perhaps the transfer was not valid for the Beckley Ave bus, so he simply paid the fare and rode the bus to the theater as he told captain Fritz .

That's new to me about he told Fritz he took a bus to the movie. Interesting.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Michael Walton on August 28, 2022, 08:02:38 PM

Then again, why not again wait for a city bus to take him home. Cheaper and he's supposedly in no hurry. Interesting he can't wait on the bus he was originally on. Why not? Oswald has lots of time and is no hurry.

Duh, he supposedly was just on a bus that got stuck in traffic. If that happened to one bus, it will happen to others as well. A taxi is far more flexible. And, I know a big deal was made about Oswald never taking a taxi, but whoever told that story had no way of knowing that, unless he was with Oswald 24/7.

That's what I thought happened - stuck in traffic. And I'd like to think he was not a complete idiot. If he'd already been on a bus that was backed up, I'd think he'd try another mode of transportation, which is what he said he did.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 28, 2022, 08:35:16 PM
That's what I thought happened - stuck in traffic. And I'd like to think he was not a complete idiot. If he'd already been on a bus that was backed up, I'd think he'd try another mode of transportation, which is what he said he did.

So Oswald has lots of time and is no hurry, but he can't wait on a bus, like everyone else did? Oswald's not even interested in returning to the epicentre of world attention to find out more about what happened. Oswald's down to about $15, with no pay check for another week (was rent due?) and spends almost $1 on a cab ride. Remember he's in no hurry and he has lots of time and he should be economizing.

How many people in America with access to a TV, breaking news of such a monumental event, that afternoon would pass that up to go to a movie? How many people where such a huge incident happened at their workplace would have no interest in what happened there or if his coworkers were involved or killed?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Michael Walton on August 28, 2022, 09:38:47 PM
So Oswald has lots of time and is no hurry, but he can't wait on a bus, like everyone else did? Oswald's not even interested in returning to the epicentre of world attention to find out more about what happened. Oswald's down to about $15, with no pay check for another week (was rent due?) and spends almost $1 on a cab ride. Remember he's in no hurry and he has lots of time and he should be economizing.

How many people in America with access to a TV, breaking news of such a monumental event, that afternoon would pass that up to go to a movie? How many people where such a huge incident happened at their workplace would have no interest in what happened there or if his coworkers were involved or killed?

$15 bucks was worth about $150 bucks today. You could buy a week's worth of groceries for about $25 bucks.

You're kind of missing my point about the hurried manner I mentioned. If he did all of the things I mentioned above, it seems highly unlikely if he did them all and made it down to get his soft drink in time. Unless, of course, he was never involved in the first place. And as Martin mentions, if he was hurried, why not just zip on out of the building to make his grand escape? He didn't though. None of it makes sense.

It's important to not look at Oswald as just some nobody who was constantly broke. There's some evidence that he may have been a lowly paid informant and was making a little bit of cash on the side. But yeah, he did pay $1 a buck for the cab, just like he paid whatever it was he paid for the rifle, for the pistol [but no record to date of any ammunition for the rife. Hmm, I wonder how he pulled that off?]. Yet, he was also worried about his daughter getting new shoes.

My hunch is that he was told to go to the theater. This is why he later said he was nothing but a patsy. He knew that as he was arrested and brought down to DPD, it was slowly dawning on him. If he was a madman, he would have said something at the midnight conference. He says absolutely nothing about either murder.

Walt Cakebread has a theory that he was down in Mexico cavorting with the Russian assassin. I don't think he was ever down there, which is why we've never seen any photo of him down there, despite that being a real Commie hotspot.

I don't think he was "rushing" to go to the theater, but that's where he was heading. Hence, the bus, giving up on that and taking the cab. The roundabout way through that neighborhood makes no sense at all.

I have no answers about why he didn't want to stick around at the building wondering what was going on. If he was the designated patsy, it makes sense for them to clear him out of the area, to send him back to Irving as if he's making a grand escape by "hiding out" in the theater. Further, that's why it makes no sense for him to have taken the roundabout way to it. Which, to me, makes sense that they wanted to get him for the cop killing first. It's almost as if they were laying breadcrumbs:

Theater - Tippit - rooming house - TSBD - assassin

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 28, 2022, 09:48:24 PM
$15 bucks was worth about $150 bucks today. You could buy a week's worth of groceries for about $25 bucks.

You're kind of missing my point about the hurried manner I mentioned. If he did all of the things I mentioned above, it seems highly unlikely if he did them all and made it down to get his soft drink in time. Unless, of course, he was never involved in the first place. And as Martin mentions, if he was hurried, why not just zip on out of the building to make his grand escape? He didn't though. None of it makes sense.

It's important to not look at Oswald as just some nobody who was constantly broke. There's some evidence that he may have been a lowly paid informant and was making a little bit of cash on the side. But yeah, he did pay $1 a buck for the cab, just like he paid whatever it was he paid for the rifle, for the pistol [but no record to date of any ammunition for the rife. Hmm, I wonder how he pulled that off?]. Yet, he was also worried about his daughter getting new shoes.

My hunch is that he was told to go to the theater. This is why he later said he was nothing but a patsy. He knew that as he was arrested and brought down to DPD, it was slowly dawning on him. If he was a madman, he would have said something at the midnight conference. He says absolutely nothing about either murder.

Walt Cakebread has a theory that he was down in Mexico cavorting with the Russian assassin. I don't think he was ever down there, which is why we've never seen any photo of him down there, despite that being a real Commie hotspot.

I don't think he was "rushing" to go to the theater, but that's where he was heading. Hence, the bus, giving up on that and taking the cab. The roundabout way through that neighborhood makes no sense at all.

I have no answers about why he didn't want to stick around at the building wondering what was going on. If he was the designated patsy, it makes sense for them to clear him out of the area, to send him back to Irving as if he's making a grand escape by "hiding out" in the theater. Further, that's why it makes no sense for him to have taken the roundabout way to it. Which, to me, makes sense that they wanted to get him for the cop killing first. It's almost as if they were laying breadcrumbs:

Theater - Tippit - rooming house - TSBD - assassin

Walt Cakebread has a theory that he was down in Mexico cavorting with the Russian assassin.

I have no such theory.     I do believe that he was sent to Mexico City to seek a Visa to Cuba....  The plotters wanted it to appear that Lee Oswald was in cahoots with Castro and then use that as a pretext for attacking Cuba after they murdered JFK and set Lee Oswald up as the assassin. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 28, 2022, 10:27:42 PM
Another guy, another building, another staircase.

LOL

No Oswald

LOL
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Michael Walton on August 28, 2022, 10:34:37 PM
Walt Cakebread has a theory that he was down in Mexico cavorting with the Russian assassin.

I have no such theory.     I do believe that he was sent to Mexico City to seek a Visa to Cuba....  The plotters wanted it to appear that Lee Oswald was in cahoots with Castro and then use that as a pretext for attacking Cuba after they murdered JFK and set Lee Oswald up as the assassin.
[/b]

Right, that's what I was referring to. And I don't think it happened that way. But to each their own.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 28, 2022, 11:57:58 PM
No Oswald

About the only thing the two scenarios had in common.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 28, 2022, 11:59:44 PM
How many people in America with access to a TV, breaking news of such a monumental event, that afternoon would pass that up to go to a movie?

It's not like Oswald was the only one in the theater.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 29, 2022, 12:53:57 AM
It's not like Oswald was the only one in the theater.

How many people in America with access to a TV, breaking news of such a monumental event, that afternoon would pass that up to go to a movie?

It's not like Oswald was the only one in the theater.

At the time that Lee left the TSBD he had no idea that JFK had been shot.....   Yes, he may have heard some folks saying the JFK had been shot, but since he was involved in a ruse that was supposed to appear as if he had shot AT AT  JFK he may have simply assumed that the folks were hysterical and imagining that JFK had been shot.   He apparently left the area at about 12:35..... and at that time everything was in confusion. And he had heard nothing but rumors and speculation until he was brought to the police station.   And even then he wasn't told that JFK had been killed until the reporters at the police station yelled at him and asked if he's shot the president. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 29, 2022, 01:29:48 AM
[/b]

Right, that's what I was referring to. And I don't think it happened that way. But to each their own.

Actually Michael..... I believe it was Hoover's henchman ( His "extra special" agent) who sent Lee to Mexico, to make it appear that Lee was in cahoots with Castro.... And the plan was to attack Cuba, until LBJ heard that there were Russian bombers in the air armed with nuclear weapons  and he called Hoover and told him to drop the plan and just release the idea that Oswald was simply a lone nut.  Both Hoover and LBJ were worried about triggering a nuclear war..... and that's why Hoover released the info that the FBI had a recoding of  Lee Oswald talking to the Russians in Mexico City....  Then he had to pretend that the voice on the recording was not Lee Oswald's  ( He was desperately trying to back away from connecting Lee to the Cubans when James Hosty  revealed that the FBI knew that Oswald had been to MC  and confronted Lee with the information.  When Hoover heard that Hosty had brought up Oswald's trip to MC he was furious.... And he ordered Gordon Shanklin to jerk Hosty out of the interrogation and Shanklin was to order Hosty to keep his mouth shut.


 This is a quick thumbnail sketch because I don't have time to go into more detail  at his time.   
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 29, 2022, 11:09:47 PM
I've been thinking a lot about the well-hidden gun between the boxes and the spent shells found in the sniper's nest. And it makes absolutely no sense. If Oswald didn't want to get caught, how did he know he had "x" amount of time to make his escape? If his plan was to try to leave the building undetected or blend in with the crowd [e.g., going down and getting a Coke], he had to have known it would take time to supposedly wipe the gun down [but supposedly leave a palm print on the box - oops!]. He had to know it would take time to carefully hide the gun between the boxes. Yet, he leaves three spent shells in the sniper's nest [yet one of the shells was supposedly bent at the lip, making it unworkable in the gun - oops again].

And if he was a crazed assassin trying to make a statement about what he had supposedly done, why all the subterfuge? If he shot at Walker, why all the subterfuge there?

The hiding of the gun and leaving the shells is illogical and makes absolutely no sense.

The hiding of the gun and leaving the shells is illogical and makes absolutely no sense.

What is the point of wiping down the rifle for prints?
If it was always Oswald's intention to flee the scene, he can leave the rifle in the SN covered with prints. His act of fleeing the scene totally incriminates him, it is this act that brings him to the attention of the police within an hour after the assassination. Any attempt to distance himself from the crime by wiping down the rifle is blown out of the water by fleeing the scene.

What is the point of fleeing the scene?
Within seconds of the assassination Oswald is confronted in the second floor lunchroom whilst drinking a Coke. It is as good as an alibi. All he has to do is mingle with his co-workers, he is in no immediate danger. Instead, he incriminates himself by fleeing the scene.
And, as Martin pointed out, why would a fleeing assassin choose to enter the door leading to the lunchroom [dead end/trap] and not the one leading to the corridor which would take him to the front entrance [escape].

Why not just bend down and pick the shells up?
All this care and attention wiping down the rifle and hiding it but leaving the shells lying there is bizarre. Why hide the rifle but leave the shells out in the open? It would take a couple of seconds to pick the shells up and there are a thousand places they could be effectively hidden on the 6th floor. If the thought process behind hiding the rifle is to somehow slow the investigation down, why doesn't this same thought process apply to the shells?

What is the point of hiding the rifle?
Hiding the rifle isn't buying the fleeing assassin any time. If Oswald had decided to mingle with his co-workers in the TSBD instead of fleeing the scene it might make sense. But he chose to run, an unnecessary act which put him immediately in the spotlight of the investigation. The pre-constructed hiding place would appear to show Oswald had thought his escape through but his actions demonstrate that this is clearly not the case.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 29, 2022, 11:26:32 PM
The hiding of the gun and leaving the shells is illogical and makes absolutely no sense.

What is the point of wiping down the rifle for prints?
If it was always Oswald's intention to flee the scene, he can leave the rifle in the SN covered with prints. His act of fleeing the scene totally incriminates him, it is this act that brings him to the attention of the police within an hour after the assassination. Any attempt to distance himself from the crime by wiping down the rifle is blown out of the water by fleeing the scene.

What is the point of fleeing the scene?
Within seconds of the assassination Oswald is confronted in the second floor lunchroom whilst drinking a Coke. It is as good as an alibi. All he has to do is mingle with his co-workers, he is in no immediate danger. Instead, he incriminates himself by fleeing the scene.
And, as Martin pointed out, why would a fleeing assassin choose to enter the door leading to the lunchroom [dead end/trap] and not the one leading to the corridor which would take him to the front entrance [escape].

Why not just bend down and pick the shells up?
All this care and attention wiping down the rifle and hiding it but leaving the shells lying there is bizarre. Why hide the rifle but leave the shells out in the open? It would take a couple of seconds to pick the shells up and there are a thousand places they could be effectively hidden on the 6th floor. If the thought process behind hiding the rifle is to somehow slow the investigation down, why doesn't this same thought process apply to the shells?

What is the point of hiding the rifle?
Hiding the rifle isn't buying the fleeing assassin any time. If Oswald had decided to mingle with his co-workers in the TSBD instead of fleeing the scene it might make sense. But he chose to run, an unnecessary act which put him immediately in the spotlight of the investigation. The pre-constructed hiding place would appear to show Oswald had thought his escape through but his actions demonstrate that this is clearly not the case.

Hi Dan ....Your absence has been noticed.  There will be a note sent home about your failure to attend regularly if it happens again.    :D 

The fact that it appears that the rifle was wiped clean of prints indicates that it was NOT Lee Oswald who hid the rifle....  Since the script in the play in which Lee was playing the lead role called for him to have appeared to have fired at JFK, there would have been no reason for him to wipe the prints off the rifle....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 30, 2022, 12:20:17 AM
Hi Dan ....Your absence has been noticed.  There will be a note sent home about your failure to attend regularly if it happens again.    :D 

The fact that it appears that the rifle was wiped clean of prints indicates that it was NOT Lee Oswald who hid the rifle....  Since the script in the play in which Lee was playing the lead role called for him to have appeared to have fired at JFK, there would have been no reason for him to wipe the prints off the rifle....

Hi Dan ....Your absence has been noticed.  There will be a note sent home about your failure to attend regularly if it happens again.
    :D 

 ;D
Summer is my busy time.

The WC narrative has Oswald wiping the prints off the rifle (amazingly there are no prints on the shells, not even Fritz's after he picked them up), he walks the entire length of the 6th floor with the rifle before placing it in a pre-constructed hiding place but leaves the shells just lying there!!
What is the thought process behind this? Some parts seem thought through, some don't.
He gets a Coke from the second floor lunchroom and then decides to leave the TSBD!!
Is he in a rush or not?

Any credible evidence regarding who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination rules Oswald out.
A lot of these niggling little things disappear when it is accepted Oswald is not the shooter.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 30, 2022, 10:18:25 AM

Hi Dan ....Your absence has been noticed.  There will be a note sent home about your failure to attend regularly if it happens again.
    :D 

 ;D
Summer is my busy time.

The WC narrative has Oswald wiping the prints off the rifle (amazingly there are no prints on the shells, not even Fritz's after he picked them up), he walks the entire length of the 6th floor with the rifle before placing it in a pre-constructed hiding place but leaves the shells just lying there!!
What is the thought process behind this? Some parts seem thought through, some don't.
He gets a Coke from the second floor lunchroom and then decides to leave the TSBD!!
Is he in a rush or not?

Any credible evidence regarding who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination rules Oswald out.
A lot of these niggling little things disappear when it is accepted Oswald is not the shooter.

And why is Oswald in such a rush? Why make himself so conspicuous?
Why rush across the 6th floor, rush down the stairs, then rush into the second floor lunchroom and buy a Coke?? and then come out strolling, pass Mrs Reid [no longer in a rush], then saunter outside!!
Obviously, LNers have to have him rushing because of the encounter in the second floor lunchroom.
The problem is, it would appear the real assassin wasn't in any rush at any point. According to Howard Brennan [Eyewitness to History]:

"My first instinct was to look back up to that man on the sixth floor... By now the motorcade was beginning to speed up and in only a couple of seconds the President's car had disappeared under the triple underpass. To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! He didn't appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do."

In a way, this lack of rushing is corroborated by the testimony of Harold Norman, situated directly below the assassin, he hears the bolt being operated, hears the shells hitting the floor, but does not hear anyone rushing away from the area directly above him. Anyone moving quickly on the wooden floor a couple of feet above Norman's head would easily have been heard.

Once it is realised Oswald was not the assassin, all of this goes away. along with many other troublesome pieces of evidence that rule out LNer narrative of Oswald as the shooter.

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 30, 2022, 03:39:12 PM

Hi Dan ....Your absence has been noticed.  There will be a note sent home about your failure to attend regularly if it happens again.
    :D 

 ;D
Summer is my busy time.

The WC narrative has Oswald wiping the prints off the rifle (amazingly there are no prints on the shells, not even Fritz's after he picked them up), he walks the entire length of the 6th floor with the rifle before placing it in a pre-constructed hiding place but leaves the shells just lying there!!
What is the thought process behind this? Some parts seem thought through, some don't.
He gets a Coke from the second floor lunchroom and then decides to leave the TSBD!!
Is he in a rush or not?

Any credible evidence regarding who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination rules Oswald out.
A lot of these niggling little things disappear when it is accepted Oswald is not the shooter.

Summer is my busy time. 

So you're a bikini salesman ?.....

A lot of these niggling little things disappear when it is accepted Oswald is not the shooter.

A whole lot of things fall away when a person sees that the official LBJ approved tale is unbelievable.   

One of the most unbelievable aspects of the tale is the very foundation on which the entire tale rests.

That aspect is the feasibility of anybody firing that cranky old rusty carcano with the scope mounted askew with precision accuracy at a moving target that was obscured by a tree.

Anybody who accepts that nonsense has to have taken leave of their commonsense ......   
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 30, 2022, 07:51:05 PM
Summer is my busy time. 

So you're a bikini salesman ?.....

I wish  ;D

Quote
A lot of these niggling little things disappear when it is accepted Oswald is not the shooter.

A whole lot of things fall away when a person sees that the official LBJ approved tale is unbelievable.   

One of the most unbelievable aspects of the tale is the very foundation on which the entire tale rests.

That aspect is the feasibility of anybody firing that cranky old rusty carcano with the scope mounted askew with precision accuracy at a moving target that was obscured by a tree.

Anybody who accepts that nonsense has to have taken leave of their commonsense ......

Any credible evidence that exists concerning who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination rules out Oswald as the shooter.
Once the evidence is accepted and Oswald is no longer in the frame as the lone nut assassin, we enter the dreaded realms of CONSPIRACY.
One of the first realisations is that the carcano is no longer required to be the assassination weapon. If Oswald did it then he must have used the carcano. But the evidence tells us he wasn't the shooter so the carcano is no longer a necessity. A "proper" rifle could be used. The function of the carcano is to frame Oswald. It is this piece of evidence, above anything, that points to Oswald as the guilty party.

As a thought experiment, I wonder if any LNer can come up with a better way to frame Oswald than leaving his weapon at the scene of the crime. It's just a thought experiment. Put aside your deep held beliefs for a moment...
Can you think of a better way?
Can you think of a simpler way?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 30, 2022, 08:10:13 PM
If LHO had been seen in the window shooting his rifle at JFK and one of the protective personnel had shot LHO between the eyes and killed him, you all would still claim he had been framed. Now wouldn’t you?   :-\
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 30, 2022, 08:17:31 PM
If LHO had been seen in the window shooting his rifle at JFK and one of the protective personnel had shot LHO between the eyes and killed him, you all would still claim he had been framed. Now wouldn’t you?   :-\

If one of the protective personnel had shot the gunman between the eyes and killed him -- and it wasn't Oswald -- you all would still claim that all the "credible evidence" points to Oswald.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 30, 2022, 08:25:08 PM
If LHO had been seen in the window shooting his rifle at JFK and one of the protective personnel had shot LHO between the eyes and killed him, you all would still claim he had been framed. Now wouldn’t you?   :-\

 :D :D :D
What a brilliant response!!

Charles, suspend your disbelief for a moment - can you think of a better way of framing Oswald than leaving his weapon at the scene of the crime.
It's just a thought experiment - you aren't denouncing your beliefs by considering it.
Can you think of a better way?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 30, 2022, 08:35:04 PM
:D :D :D
What a brilliant response!!

Charles, suspend your disbelief for a moment - can you think of a better way of framing Oswald than leaving his weapon at the scene of the crime.
It's just a thought experiment - you aren't denouncing your beliefs by considering it.
Can you think of a better way?


I just did.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 30, 2022, 08:44:25 PM

I just did.

 ???

I have read your post a few times and I'm not quite sure how that is a way to frame him.
Can you elaborate?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 30, 2022, 08:48:00 PM
I'm assuming you are familiar with the concept of framing someone for an act they didn't commit.
You seem to be describing Oswald being shot actually committing the act.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 30, 2022, 08:54:49 PM
???

I have read your post a few times and I'm not quite sure how that is a way to frame him.
Can you elaborate?

Shoot him in the act.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 30, 2022, 09:09:56 PM
Shoot him in the act.

How is that framing him?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on August 30, 2022, 09:21:27 PM
Shoot him in the act.
Yep, shoot him in the TSBD and then plant the rifle. Then have about 6-8 people planted in the crowd who would say, "I saw him shoot JFK."

Just as, it's claimed, they had all of those witnesses say he shot Tippit or was at the scene during the shooting or fleeing it with the revolver in his hand. They all were coerced or manipulated into saying it was Oswald.

The claim by the Oswald defenders is you can't place him in that window at the time of the shooting. Then the Oswald defenders say all of the evidence was planted or manufactured. So why didn't they manufacture 6-8 witnesses to say they saw him fire the rifle?

They don't like questions like this. Especially the "I'm not a conspiracist" types who should like these questions if they're here to discuss the event.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 30, 2022, 09:23:20 PM
How is that framing him?


If you are going to frame someone, don’t pussyfoot around. Make it look like he was in the act of assassinating JFK and shoot him right then and there. The details are surely within the very capable imaginations of you guys…
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 30, 2022, 10:13:11 PM
This is better than I could've hoped for - two for the price of one.
Firstly Steve's:

Yep, shoot him in the TSBD and then plant the rifle. Then have about 6-8 people planted in the crowd who would say, "I saw him shoot JFK."

Just as, it's claimed, they had all of those witnesses say he shot Tippit or was at the scene during the shooting or fleeing it with the revolver in his hand. They all were coerced or manipulated into saying it was Oswald.

The claim by the Oswald defenders is you can't place him in that window at the time of the shooting. Then the Oswald defenders say all of the evidence was planted or manufactured. So why didn't they manufacture 6-8 witnesses to say they saw him fire the rifle?

They don't like questions like this. Especially the "I'm not a conspiracist" types who should like these questions if they're here to discuss the event.


I accept the credible evidence that it was not Oswald on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination and, as such, that automatically makes me a Conspiracy Theorist. But I'm not some Tinfoil "everything is faked" bullsh%t merchant. So the tactic of putting me in with this crowd doesn't wash. I believe Oswald shot Tippit and that he was on the run the second he left the TSBD building, so your weak-arsed argument that "it's just like the Tippit shooting" can be shoved.
It's an infamous tactic of LNer zealots to bundle together all CTers as if they're the same thing - LNers are the same thing, CTers are not. But when the going gets hot (as it is just about to) it's a convenient ploy.
That there can be a massive conspiracy in which everyone can be involved is Magical Thinking, so we can dispense with the notion of having "6-8 people planted in the crowd". Unlike the four actual eye-witnesses who all describe the same clothing worn by the shooter but not owned by Oswald. This, by itself, is enough to cast enormous doubt regarding the identification of Oswald as the shooter, particularly as all four eye-witnesses describe the same type of clothing.

Now Charles:

"If you are going to frame someone, don’t pussyfoot around. Make it look like he was in the act of assassinating JFK and shoot him right then and there. The details are surely within the very capable imaginations of you guys…"

Again, here we are with the "you guys" tactic - all CTers are the same.
So, in Charles' imagination Oswald is in the SN with a rifle pointing it at JFK but not actually shooting - awesome stuff. Many TFers are green with envy at this horsesh$t.

Let's start with the simple stuff - a question to you both - who shoots Oswald?
This should be interesting  ::)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 30, 2022, 10:23:59 PM
I wish  ;D

Any credible evidence that exists concerning who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination rules out Oswald as the shooter.
Once the evidence is accepted and Oswald is no longer in the frame as the lone nut assassin, we enter the dreaded realms of CONSPIRACY.
One of the first realisations is that the carcano is no longer required to be the assassination weapon. If Oswald did it then he must have used the carcano. But the evidence tells us he wasn't the shooter so the carcano is no longer a necessity. A "proper" rifle could be used. The function of the carcano is to frame Oswald. It is this piece of evidence, above anything, that points to Oswald as the guilty party.

As a thought experiment, I wonder if any LNer can come up with a better way to frame Oswald than leaving his weapon at the scene of the crime. It's just a thought experiment. Put aside your deep held beliefs for a moment...
Can you think of a better way?
Can you think of a simpler way?

I wonder if any LNer can come up with a better way to frame Oswald than leaving his weapon at the scene of the crime.

Leaving a throw down gun at the scene of a murder has been used to implicate the patsy since the  invention of the gun.

Crooked cops like to use that strategy .....  When they need to eliminate a threat who knows too much about their criminal dealings they will kill the threat and leave a gun near the body that can be traced to some poor not to bright sucker.

In the case of the murder of JFK the conspirators realized that they had a perfect patsy because they learned that he had played the role of an attempted assassin at the Walker house in April.  They appealed to his ego by telling him that he was a junior James Bond, and the sucker had fell for the idea that he could infiltrate Cuba just as he had Russia a couple of years earlier when his mission was  basically a test to see if he could pretend to be a disgruntled Marine and wanted to defect to the soviet Union.  He may have given them a copy of a photo that portrayed him as a well armed guerilla fighter who was armed with a menacing looking rifle but in reality it was a cheap piece of junk.  We know that he gave George De Morhenschildt a copy of that photo and perhaps  De M unwittingly told the conspirators that lee had taken a pot shot at Walker.         
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 30, 2022, 11:10:52 PM
This is better than I could've hoped for - two for the price of one.
Firstly Steve's:

Yep, shoot him in the TSBD and then plant the rifle. Then have about 6-8 people planted in the crowd who would say, "I saw him shoot JFK."

Just as, it's claimed, they had all of those witnesses say he shot Tippit or was at the scene during the shooting or fleeing it with the revolver in his hand. They all were coerced or manipulated into saying it was Oswald.

The claim by the Oswald defenders is you can't place him in that window at the time of the shooting. Then the Oswald defenders say all of the evidence was planted or manufactured. So why didn't they manufacture 6-8 witnesses to say they saw him fire the rifle?

They don't like questions like this. Especially the "I'm not a conspiracist" types who should like these questions if they're here to discuss the event.


I accept the credible evidence that it was not Oswald on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination and, as such, that automatically makes me a Conspiracy Theorist. But I'm not some Tinfoil "everything is faked" bullsh%t merchant. So the tactic of putting me in with this crowd doesn't wash. I believe Oswald shot Tippit and that he was on the run the second he left the TSBD building, so your weak-arsed argument that "it's just like the Tippit shooting" can be shoved.
It's an infamous tactic of LNer zealots to bundle together all CTers as if they're the same thing - LNers are the same thing, CTers are not. But when the going gets hot (as it is just about to) it's a convenient ploy.
That there can be a massive conspiracy in which everyone can be involved is Magical Thinking, so we can dispense with the notion of having "6-8 people planted in the crowd". Unlike the four actual eye-witnesses who all describe the same clothing worn by the shooter but not owned by Oswald. This, by itself, is enough to cast enormous doubt regarding the identification of Oswald as the shooter, particularly as all four eye-witnesses describe the same type of clothing.

Now Charles:

"If you are going to frame someone, don’t pussyfoot around. Make it look like he was in the act of assassinating JFK and shoot him right then and there. The details are surely within the very capable imaginations of you guys…"

Again, here we are with the "you guys" tactic - all CTers are the same.
So, in Charles' imagination Oswald is in the SN with a rifle pointing it at JFK but not actually shooting - awesome stuff. Many TFers are green with envy at this horsesh$t.

Let's start with the simple stuff - a question to you both - who shoots Oswald?
This should be interesting  ::)


You asked a question and I gave you an answer. I didn’t expect that you would accept it. You never accept anything other than your own misguided opinion. So arguing with you about the details of a hypothetical frame job would be insane. No thanks…
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 31, 2022, 04:06:46 AM

You asked a question and I gave you an answer. I didn’t expect that you would accept it. You never accept anything other than your own misguided opinion. So arguing with you about the details of a hypothetical frame job would be insane. No thanks…

 :D :D
Run along Charles, you are way out of your depth.

"You asked a question..." - "Can you think of a better way?" [of framing Oswald than leaving his weapon at the scene]
"...and I gave you an answer" - "Shoot him in the act" [of committing the crime he is being framed for]

Thank you for taking the time out to share your searing insight into the case. D'oh!!
The bottom line is this - for LNers the rifle is the key. It is the murder weapon, found on the floor from which the shooting took place, and it belongs to Oswald.
Therefore Oswald is the assassin.
This is exactly what planted evidence is supposed to do, misguide and misdirect.
There isn't a better, simpler way to frame Oswald for the shooting.

"Shoot him in the act"  ::)

Four eye-witnesses state the assassin wore a white/off-white shirt - a garment Oswald was not wearing that day and did not own.

Amos Euins states time and time again the assassin had a "bald spot" on his head:
"I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald spot."
Oswald had no such bald spot.

According to the LNer narrative, Oswald hid out for over 20 minutes in the SN while BRW had his lunch on the 6th floor. But eight officers testified to seeing the lunch remains at the SN, three actually testified that the lunch remains were on top of the SN. Arnold Rowland saw a man with a scoped rifle on the 6th floor SW corner window 15 minutes before the motorcade arrived, at a time when Oswald was supposed to be hiding out in the SN. Arnold also saw a black male in the SN window at a time when BRW was eating his lunch, the remains of which were found at the SN.

According to the LNer narrative Oswald rushes from the SN, in order to escape the TSBD. But Howard Brennan describes the assassin lingering at the window, admiring his handiwork. Harold Norman, directly below the SN hears the bolt of the rifle being worked, he hears the shells hitting the floor, but doesn't hear anyone rushing away from the scene. Oswald supposedly rushes downstairs then goes into the second floor lunchroom to buy a Coke!
But he isn't rushing down the stairs, because he wasn't on the 6th floor. If he had been rushing down the stairs he would've been seen by the perfectly placed Dorothy Garner.

We know he's not on the 6th floor because he sees James Jarman and Harold Norman on the first floor, making their way to the west elevator after entering the rear door of the TSBD building. This is ten minutes after Rowland has spotted the man with the rifle on the 6th floor.

Brennan describes the man he sees on the 6th floor as being much older than Oswald. He also describes the man as having a "fair complexion".
Ronald Fischer makes a similar observation concerning the man on the 6th floor, but contrasts it with Oswald's "dark" complexion.
"...looking at him from the street in the School Book Depository Building--if I could have been able to---if I could have seen that. I think, if he had been unshaven in the window, it would have made his complexion appear--well---rather dark; but I remember his complexion was light;"
Brennan also describes the shooter as being "neat" - not a word readily associated with Oswald.

According to the LNer narrative, Oswald has the foresight to prepare a place to hide the rifle, wipe the rifle down for prints, but leaves the shells just lying on the floor.

That LNers have zero doubt Oswald took the shots displays a zeal most religious fanatics would be proud of. In this way they are uncannily similar to the Tinfoil Brigade who, in the face of whatever evidence is thrown at them, are unmoved from their "convictions". They are also similar in that they both hide behind the banner of "Truth".



Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 31, 2022, 05:46:53 AM
I think if the intent of the conspirators was to cause the American people as much confusion much anxiety as possible, disrupting their faith in their government, and creating a horrible spectacle, hence the method of execution at the very moment the POTUS seems to have triumphantly completed a drive thru Dallas

Then that might be a  reason for a pre planted MC rifle with paper trail to Oswald , yet with misaligned scope mount and questions about rapid firing such rifle, and no prints etc .
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 31, 2022, 06:11:51 AM
The claim by the Oswald defenders is you can't place him in that window at the time of the shooting. Then the Oswald defenders say all of the evidence was planted or manufactured. So why didn't they manufacture 6-8 witnesses to say they saw him fire the rifle?

Exactly nobody says "all of the evidence was planted or manufactured".  That's just a strawman made up by the WC-evangelists so they can make silly arguments like this one.

Quote
They don't like questions like this. Especially the "I'm not a conspiracist" types who should like these questions if they're here to discuss the event.

I don't see how hypothetical questions is "discussing the event".  But the way to frame Oswald is to do what they did.  It worked, didn't it?  At least it convinced people who don't want to look too hard at the evidence.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 31, 2022, 07:06:11 AM
And why is Oswald in such a rush? Why make himself so conspicuous?
Why rush across the 6th floor, rush down the stairs, then rush into the second floor lunchroom and buy a Coke?? and then come out strolling, pass Mrs Reid [no longer in a rush], then saunter outside!!
Obviously, LNers have to have him rushing because of the encounter in the second floor lunchroom.
The problem is, it would appear the real assassin wasn't in any rush at any point. According to Howard Brennan [Eyewitness to History]:

"My first instinct was to look back up to that man on the sixth floor... By now the motorcade was beginning to speed up and in only a couple of seconds the President's car had disappeared under the triple underpass. To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! He didn't appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do."

In a way, this lack of rushing is corroborated by the testimony of Harold Norman, situated directly below the assassin, he hears the bolt being operated, hears the shells hitting the floor, but does not hear anyone rushing away from the area directly above him. Anyone moving quickly on the wooden floor a couple of feet above Norman's head would easily have been heard.

Once it is realised Oswald was not the assassin, all of this goes away. along with many other troublesome pieces of evidence that rule out LNer narrative of Oswald as the shooter.

'all of this goes away'
_are you smelling toast presently

'A couple of feet'
_ah, the magically shrinking distance between 5th/6th

'would easily have been heard'.
_and the people and vehicles below would have been frozen into a dead silence

'troublesome pieces of evidence'
_Cue sinister music
  Everything under the sun freaks you nerds out
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on August 31, 2022, 12:17:14 PM
:D :D
Run along Charles, you are way out of your depth.

"You asked a question..." - "Can you think of a better way?" [of framing Oswald than leaving his weapon at the scene]
"...and I gave you an answer" - "Shoot him in the act" [of committing the crime he is being framed for]

Thank you for taking the time out to share your searing insight into the case. D'oh!!
The bottom line is this - for LNers the rifle is the key. It is the murder weapon, found on the floor from which the shooting took place, and it belongs to Oswald.
Therefore Oswald is the assassin.
This is exactly what planted evidence is supposed to do, misguide and misdirect.
There isn't a better, simpler way to frame Oswald for the shooting.

"Shoot him in the act"  ::)

Four eye-witnesses state the assassin wore a white/off-white shirt - a garment Oswald was not wearing that day and did not own.

Amos Euins states time and time again the assassin had a "bald spot" on his head:
"I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald spot."
Oswald had no such bald spot.

According to the LNer narrative, Oswald hid out for over 20 minutes in the SN while BRW had his lunch on the 6th floor. But eight officers testified to seeing the lunch remains at the SN, three actually testified that the lunch remains were on top of the SN. Arnold Rowland saw a man with a scoped rifle on the 6th floor SW corner window 15 minutes before the motorcade arrived, at a time when Oswald was supposed to be hiding out in the SN. Arnold also saw a black male in the SN window at a time when BRW was eating his lunch, the remains of which were found at the SN.

According to the LNer narrative Oswald rushes from the SN, in order to escape the TSBD. But Howard Brennan describes the assassin lingering at the window, admiring his handiwork. Harold Norman, directly below the SN hears the bolt of the rifle being worked, he hears the shells hitting the floor, but doesn't hear anyone rushing away from the scene. Oswald supposedly rushes downstairs then goes into the second floor lunchroom to buy a Coke!
But he isn't rushing down the stairs, because he wasn't on the 6th floor. If he had been rushing down the stairs he would've been seen by the perfectly placed Dorothy Garner.

We know he's not on the 6th floor because he sees James Jarman and Harold Norman on the first floor, making their way to the west elevator after entering the rear door of the TSBD building. This is ten minutes after Rowland has spotted the man with the rifle on the 6th floor.

Brennan describes the man he sees on the 6th floor as being much older than Oswald. He also describes the man as having a "fair complexion".
Ronald Fischer makes a similar observation concerning the man on the 6th floor, but contrasts it with Oswald's "dark" complexion.
"...looking at him from the street in the School Book Depository Building--if I could have been able to---if I could have seen that. I think, if he had been unshaven in the window, it would have made his complexion appear--well---rather dark; but I remember his complexion was light;"
Brennan also describes the shooter as being "neat" - not a word readily associated with Oswald.

According to the LNer narrative, Oswald has the foresight to prepare a place to hide the rifle, wipe the rifle down for prints, but leaves the shells just lying on the floor.

That LNers have zero doubt Oswald took the shots displays a zeal most religious fanatics would be proud of. In this way they are uncannily similar to the Tinfoil Brigade who, in the face of whatever evidence is thrown at them, are unmoved from their "convictions". They are also similar in that they both hide behind the banner of "Truth".



(https://i.vgy.me/2nJizk.png)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 31, 2022, 03:53:31 PM


(https://i.vgy.me/2nJizk.png)

A wise man knows when to stop arguing, and let the ignoramus remain an ignoramus.

There was a time when wise men realized that the Earth was not a flat plate.   Their opponents would not accept the proof that was presented because their egos blinded them to the proof being presented.

Nobody will ever convince Mr "Smith" that he's been duped .......
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 31, 2022, 06:16:15 PM
A wise man knows when to stop arguing, and let the ignoramus remain an ignoramus.

There was a time when wise men realized that the Earth was not a flat plate.   Their opponents would not accept the proof that was presented because their egos blinded them to the proof being presented.

Nobody will ever convince Mr "Smith" that he's been duped .......

We've been through this with you multiple times. The spherical earth was mainstream since the ancient Greeks (who calculated, as best they could, the world's circumference). The Catholic Church has on the top of ceremonial staffs a globe, representing the earth.

    "The myth that people in the Middle Ages thought the Earth is flat appears
     to date from the 17th century as part of the campaign by Protestants
     against Catholic teaching. But it gained currency in the 19th century,
     thanks to inaccurate histories such as John William Draper's History of the
     Conflict Between Religion and Science (1874) and Andrew Dickson White's
     A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1896).
     Atheists and agnostics championed the conflict thesis for their own purposes,
     but historical research gradually demonstrated that Draper and White had
     propagated more fantasy than fact in their efforts to prove that science and
     religion are locked in eternal conflict."

It's the dishonest contrarians who promoted the "flat earth" conspiracy theory to undermine authority and reason. The modern equivalent is the JFK Conspiracy Loon or so-called "Skeptic/disinterested observer".
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 31, 2022, 06:23:19 PM
We've been through this with you multiple times. The spherical earth was mainstream since the ancient Greeks (who calculated, as best they could, the world's circumference). The Catholic Church has on the top of ceremonial staffs a globe, representing the earth.

    "The myth that people in the Middle Ages thought the Earth is flat appears
     to date from the 17th century as part of the campaign by Protestants
     against Catholic teaching. But it gained currency in the 19th century,
     thanks to inaccurate histories such as John William Draper's History of the
     Conflict Between Religion and Science (1874) and Andrew Dickson White's
     A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1896).
     Atheists and agnostics championed the conflict thesis for their own purposes,
     but historical research gradually demonstrated that Draper and White had
     propagated more fantasy than fact in their efforts to prove that science and
     religion are locked in eternal conflict."

It's the dishonest contrarians who promoted the "flat earth" conspiracy theory to undermine authority and reason. The modern equivalent is the JFK Conspiracy Loon or so-called "Skeptic/disinterested observer".

Your rebuttal is irrelevant..... The fact is:  The Earth is a sphere ....   
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Gerry Down on August 31, 2022, 06:39:34 PM
We've been through this with you multiple times. The spherical earth was mainstream since the ancient Greeks (who calculated, as best they could, the world's circumference). The Catholic Church has on the top of ceremonial staffs a globe, representing the earth.

    "The myth that people in the Middle Ages thought the Earth is flat appears
     to date from the 17th century as part of the campaign by Protestants
     against Catholic teaching. But it gained currency in the 19th century,
     thanks to inaccurate histories such as John William Draper's History of the
     Conflict Between Religion and Science (1874) and Andrew Dickson White's
     A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1896).
     Atheists and agnostics championed the conflict thesis for their own purposes,
     but historical research gradually demonstrated that Draper and White had
     propagated more fantasy than fact in their efforts to prove that science and
     religion are locked in eternal conflict."

It's the dishonest contrarians who promoted the "flat earth" conspiracy theory to undermine authority and reason. The modern equivalent is the JFK Conspiracy Loon or so-called "Skeptic/disinterested observer".

Their tactic was similar to Hitler and Goebbels. A lie repeated often enough comes to be believed.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 31, 2022, 08:46:45 PM
Their tactic was similar to Hitler and Goebbels. A lie repeated often enough comes to be believed.

So If Joe Biden tells a lie and that lie is repeated often enough, it will come to be believed and accepted as the truth?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Gerry Down on August 31, 2022, 11:58:55 PM
So If Joe Biden tells a lie and that lie is repeated often enough, it will come to be believed and accepted as the truth?

That's how he got elected.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 01, 2022, 12:50:32 AM
Shoot him in the act.

The plotters had hoped that Lee would be a stupid sucker that he would actually be behind that window where they could shoot him and kill him and then decorate a cop for being alert and catching the assassin in the act.

Then the headlines  would have been:   Assassin Shot Before He Could Escape....... Case closed

Lee knew that it would be very risky to play out his role as an attempt assassin behind that window..... so he adlibbed his role and merely left the spent shells and the hidden rifle and stayed out of sight  until after JFK had passed by the TSBD.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on September 01, 2022, 01:12:34 AM
The plotters had hoped that Lee would be a stupid sucker that he would actually be behind that window where they could shoot him and kill him and then decorate a cop for being alert and catching the assassin in the act.

Then the headlines  would have been:   Assassin Shot Before He Could Escape....... Case closed

Lee knew that it would be very risky to play out his role as an attempt assassin behind that window..... so he adlibbed his role and merely left the spent shells and the hidden rifle and stayed out of sight  until after JFK had passed by the TSBD.




Then the headlines  would have been:   Assassin Shot Before He Could Escape....... Case closed


Exactly, that’s why I said that it would be a better way to frame someone than planting a rifle.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 01, 2022, 01:43:42 AM



Then the headlines  would have been:   Assassin Shot Before He Could Escape....... Case closed


Exactly, that’s why I said that it would be a better way to frame someone than planting a rifle.

But if the sucker didn't co-operate ..... then what?   

Since Lee was not on the sixth floor to be shot while trying to escape, he foiled that part of their plot....I'm not sure who the guy was who Baker and Truly encountered on either the third or fourth floor but he may have been the "alert law officer" who was assigned to kill Oswald.  ( of course he couldn't do his job because Lee wasn't there)   They had to have the mute evidence of the spent shells and the rifle to pin the assassination on Lee Oswald.  If only they could have had the dead body.......Case Closed.....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Charles Collins on September 01, 2022, 01:57:32 AM
But if the sucker didn't co-operate ..... then what?   

Since Lee was not on the sixth floor to be shot while trying to escape, he foiled that part of their plot....I'm not sure who the guy was who Baker and Truly encountered on either the third or fourth floor but he may have been the "alert law officer" who was assigned to kill Oswald.  ( of course he couldn't do his job because Lee wasn't there)   They had to have the mute evidence of the spent shells and the rifle to pin the assassination on Lee Oswald.  If only they could have had the dead body.......Case Closed.....


But if the sucker didn't co-operate ..... then what?   


I answered a hypothetical question with a hypothetical answer. And I said that the details are up to others. That includes contingencies.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 02, 2022, 04:29:32 PM
Their tactic was similar to Hitler and Goebbels. A lie repeated often enough comes to be believed.

Sorry, but the Big Lie was the one the Warren Commission told.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 02, 2022, 08:25:34 PM
Sorry, but the Big Lie was the one the Warren Commission told.

Yes..... And I believe that lie is bigger than anything Hitler presented.

Those who refer to the committee as the "Warren Commission"   are avoiding the fact that the organization was hand picked by LBJ.   He said that it was his "Special hand picked blue ribbon committee". And their mission was to convince the public that Lee Harrrrrrvey Ossssssswald  ( Boooo!! Hisssss!!) was just a lone nut who had murdered president Kennedy for no reason, and he had no accomplices.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 04, 2022, 05:44:34 AM
 If the photo of the rifle between the boxes is legit, then even after a box was moved out of the way, the remaining boxes apparently were applying enough force on the rifle to keep it from rotating from vertical to flat on the ground.

So there seems to be  really only 2 possibilities to explain the flat laying rifle in Tom Aleya’s film sequence

1. At least one MORE box was moved just AFTER the photo was taken but just BEFORE Tom Aleya films Lt.Day lifting  rifle up, the result causing the rifle the to fall over flat.

2. The rifle was moved from some other location or was brought to the 6th floor to be filmed by Aleya as laying flat at the location of the boxes. The photograph of the rifle was then taken LATER to.establish a false timeline of the rifle discovered at 1:22pm.   

If no.1 , then there is a dishonest account given that there was no disturbance of the scene between the rifle photographed and the rifle then lifted by Lt.Day.

If no.2 then there is outright conspiracy.

Either way , there is reasonable doubt about the veracity of the account of the rifle being found, where and when it was found.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 05, 2022, 12:38:06 AM
If the photo of the rifle between the boxes is legit, then even after a box was moved out of the way, the remaining boxes apparently were applying enough force on the rifle to keep it from rotating from vertical to flat on the ground.

So there seems to be  really only 2 possibilities to explain the flat laying rifle in Tom Aleya’s film sequence

1. At least one MORE box was moved just AFTER the photo was taken but just BEFORE Tom Aleya films Lt.Day lifting  rifle up, the result causing the rifle the to fall over flat.

2. The rifle was moved from some other location or was brought to the 6th floor to be filmed by Aleya as laying flat at the location of the boxes. The photograph of the rifle was then taken LATER to.establish a false timeline of the rifle discovered at 1:22pm.   

If no.1 , then there is a dishonest account given that there was no disturbance of the scene between the rifle photographed and the rifle then lifted by Lt.Day.

If no.2 then there is outright conspiracy.

Either way , there is reasonable doubt about the veracity of the account of the rifle being found, where and when it was found.

1. At least one MORE box was moved just AFTER the photo was taken but just BEFORE Tom Aleya films Lt.Day lifting  rifle up, the result causing the rifle the to fall over flat.


A while back I found every piece of Alyea footage I could about the discovery of the rifle and cobbled this together:


It opens with Fritz entering the area where the rifle was hidden and there is a shot of the rifle in the upright position. Below is a clearer pic:

(https://i.imgur.com/b5iLFTm.png)

This was taken before Day slid the rifle out of its original position and picked it up as shown in the Alyea footage, where it appears to be lying flat.
It is my opinion boxes where moved to allow Fritz and Day access into the rifle hiding area. Otherwise the rifle would've been easily seen.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 05, 2022, 02:41:51 PM

1. At least one MORE box was moved just AFTER the photo was taken but just BEFORE Tom Aleya films Lt.Day lifting  rifle up, the result causing the rifle the to fall over flat.


A while back I found every piece of Alyea footage I could about the discovery of the rifle and cobbled this together:


It opens with Fritz entering the area where the rifle was hidden and there is a shot of the rifle in the upright position. Below is a clearer pic:

(https://i.imgur.com/b5iLFTm.png)

This was taken before Day slid the rifle out of its original position and picked it up as shown in the Alyea footage, where it appears to be lying flat.
It is my opinion boxes where moved to allow Fritz and Day access into the rifle hiding area. Otherwise the rifle would've been easily seen.

(https://i.imgur.com/b5iLFTm.png)

This was taken before Day slid the rifle out of its original position and picked it up as shown in the Alyea footage, where it appears to be lying flat.

Dan, How can you verify that the photo was taken before Day "slid it out" and picked it up?

Please look at Weitzman exhibit "E"  and imagine Seymour Weitzman with his face down near the floor and shining his flashlight beneath the pallet.

Would it have been possible for Weitzman to have seen the rifle at that time if it had been standing between the boxes?   

(https://images2.imgbox.com/03/7f/cR4zFLL3_o.jpg)

 The camera angle is much steeper than Weitzman's face (which was on the floor) was when he looked beneath the pallet but Weitzman "E" provides a photo of the boxes and pallet where Weitzman saw the rifle LYING ON THE FLOOR.   
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 05, 2022, 04:43:13 PM

1. At least one MORE box was moved just AFTER the photo was taken but just BEFORE Tom Aleya films Lt.Day lifting  rifle up, the result causing the rifle the to fall over flat.


A while back I found every piece of Alyea footage I could about the discovery of the rifle and cobbled this together:


It opens with Fritz entering the area where the rifle was hidden and there is a shot of the rifle in the upright position. Below is a clearer pic:

(https://i.imgur.com/b5iLFTm.png)

This was taken before Day slid the rifle out of its original position and picked it up as shown in the Alyea footage, where it appears to be lying flat.
It is my opinion boxes where moved to allow Fritz and Day access into the rifle hiding area. Otherwise the rifle would've been easily seen.

It is my opinion boxes where moved to allow Fritz and Day access into the rifle hiding area. Otherwise the rifle would've been easily seen.

Yes, you're right, Dan...  Boxes were moved....   Fritz could not have stood near the rifle because it was surrounded by boxes when Boone spotted it on the floor.   Boone had to move a box or two and then shine his flashlight down into the cavern of boxes.

The film which shows Fritz standing near the rifle which is sandwiched between boxes doesn't make sense ???   

For what reason would Firtz have stood above the rifle?   AND then he seems to walk off to the east and stand on the south east side of the ceiling support pillar.   That would have been impossible if boxes of books hadn't been moved.     

Bottom Line:......I don't believe the film was taken that afternoon..... 

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 06, 2022, 07:19:05 AM
According to Boones WC testimony, FRITZ was the one who lifted the rifle by the sling from its place.

There’s no mention specifically naming Lt.Day by Boone, the “ID” man cannot have been Lt.Day if Tom Aleya statement is correct that Lt.Day did not arrive to the 6th floor until 18 minutes after the rifle was photographed.

 Boone used the phrase “At this time” referring to when the photo was taken, that Fritz picked the rifle up “from its place”, so either Boone has very bad memory, OR a rifle was lifted up FIRST by Fritz almost immediately after the photo was taken, and then LATER , when Lt.Day  arrives, the rifle has been either moved to or returned to”it’s place” to be lifted AGAIN by Lt.Day while Aleya films it.

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 06, 2022, 03:45:59 PM
If the photo of the rifle between the boxes is legit, then even after a box was moved out of the way, the remaining boxes apparently were applying enough force on the rifle to keep it from rotating from vertical to flat on the ground.

So there seems to be  really only 2 possibilities to explain the flat laying rifle in Tom Aleya’s film sequence

1. At least one MORE box was moved just AFTER the photo was taken but just BEFORE Tom Aleya films Lt.Day lifting  rifle up, the result causing the rifle the to fall over flat.

2. The rifle was moved from some other location or was brought to the 6th floor to be filmed by Aleya as laying flat at the location of the boxes. The photograph of the rifle was then taken LATER to.establish a false timeline of the rifle discovered at 1:22pm.   

If no.1 , then there is a dishonest account given that there was no disturbance of the scene between the rifle photographed and the rifle then lifted by Lt.Day.

If no.2 then there is outright conspiracy.

Either way , there is reasonable doubt about the veracity of the account of the rifle being found, where and when it was found.

there is reasonable doubt about the veracity of the account of the rifle being found, where and when it was found.

You're right, Zeon.... The carcano was found beneath the boxes of books on a pallet, in the NW corner of the sixth floor, and  it was not standing sandwiched between boxes.   The photos that show the rifle sandwiched between boxes were taken after 11/22/63 .   When the conspirators discovered that there would not have been enough time after the shooting for the patsy to have hid the rifle in the manner that it was hidden,(see Alyea film)  they were compelled to create fake photos of the rifle in a place where the patsy could hastily have dumped the rifle. 

2. The rifle was  was brought to the 6th floor to be filmed by Aleya   LT Day   The photograph of the rifle was then taken to create false evidence for the framing of Lee Oswald   

The film taken by Tom Alyea is authentic..... The rifle was lying on the floor just as it is seen in Tom Alyea's film and just as Seymour Weitzman saw it when he was down on the floor and shined his flashlight beneath the pallet.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 06, 2022, 10:23:33 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/b5iLFTm.png)

This was taken before Day slid the rifle out of its original position and picked it up as shown in the Alyea footage, where it appears to be lying flat.

Dan, How can you verify that the photo was taken before Day "slid it out" and picked it up?

Please look at Weitzman exhibit "E"  and imagine Seymour Weitzman with his face down near the floor and shining his flashlight beneath the pallet.

Would it have been possible for Weitzman to have seen the rifle at that time if it had been standing between the boxes?   

(https://images2.imgbox.com/03/7f/cR4zFLL3_o.jpg)

 The camera angle is much steeper than Weitzman's face (which was on the floor) was when he looked beneath the pallet but Weitzman "E" provides a photo of the boxes and pallet where Weitzman saw the rifle LYING ON THE FLOOR.

The photo of Fritz stood in the boxes with the rifle in an upright position at his feet is a still from the Alyea film.
It is taken before Day picks the rifle up. At this moment the rifle is in the same position as in the photos taken by Studebaker, meaning Studebaker took his pictures before Day picked up the rife.
This is solid film evidence the rifle was in the upright position when it was initially found.
Why you think the rifle had to be photographed in the upright position in order to frame Oswald is baffling.

I'm very confused about the fuss being made about Jerry Organ's graphic. I've put a green arrow in the first pic to show where the rifle was found.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RVcwM6gf/riflehidingplace2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 06, 2022, 11:39:58 PM
The photo of Fritz stood in the boxes with the rifle in an upright position at his feet is a still from the Alyea film.
It is taken before Day picks the rifle up. At this moment the rifle is in the same position as in the photos taken by Studebaker, meaning Studebaker took his pictures before Day picked up the rife.
This is solid film evidence the rifle was in the upright position when it was initially found.
Why you think the rifle had to be photographed in the upright position in order to frame Oswald is baffling.

I'm very confused about the fuss being made about Jerry Organ's graphic. I've put a green arrow in the first pic to show where the rifle was found.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RVcwM6gf/riflehidingplace2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


The green arrow points to the location where the rifle was standing upright and sandwiched between the boxes.....   The official DPD  in situ photo was taken with the rifle at that location.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RVcwM6gf/riflehidingplace2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In the looking west photo that site would be just west of the pillar with the number#5 painted on it

Seymour Weitzman was down on the floor and looking beneath the pallet when he spotted the rifle lying on the floor in the beam of his flashlight.   Weitzman could not have seen the rifle if it had been sandwiched between the boxes because there were boxes sitting on the floor in Weitzman's line of sight .....so either Weitzman was lying and the Alyea film is a fake or The in situ photo is a fake. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 06, 2022, 11:52:36 PM

The green arrow points to the location where the rifle was standing upright and sandwiched between the boxes.....   The official DPD  in situ photo was taken with the rifle at that location.

It is also the same location shown in the Alyea film, with the rifle in the upright position.

Quote
(https://i.postimg.cc/RVcwM6gf/riflehidingplace2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In the looking west photo that site would be just west of the pillar with the number#5 painted on it

Seymour Weitzman was down on the floor and looking beneath the pallet when he spotted the rifle lying on the floor in the beam of his flashlight.   Weitzman could not have seen the rifle if it had been sandwiched between the boxes because there were boxes sitting on the floor in Weitzman's line of sight .....so either Weitzman was lying and the Alyea film is a fake or The in situ photo is a fake.

Or you don't understand where Weitzman was looking from.
Weitzman was behind the stack of boxes marked A, B and C when he was on the floor looking through the "flat".
Weitzman wasn't lying.
The Alyea footage is authentic.
The DPD photos are genuine.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 06, 2022, 11:58:21 PM
From Eugene Boone's WC testimony:

"Well, I proceeded to the east end of the building, I guess, and started working our way across the building to the west wall, looking in, under, and around all the boxes and pallets, and what-have-you that were on the floor. Looking for the weapon. And as I got to the west wall, there were a row of windows there, and a slight space between some boxes and the wall. I squeezed through them.
When I did--I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the rifle was here."


This is a description of the position of the rifle as seen in the Altea footage and the DPD photos. How much evidence do you need?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 07, 2022, 12:06:55 AM
It is also the same location shown in the Alyea film, with the rifle in the upright position.

Or you don't understand where Weitzman was looking from.
Weitzman was behind the stack of boxes marked A, B and C when he was on the floor looking through the "flat".
Weitzman wasn't lying.
The Alyea footage is authentic.
The DPD photos are genuine.

The green arrow points to the location where the Official DPD in situ photo was taken.   There are boxes sitting on the floor. They were on the south side of the rifle in the official DPD photo.  The pallet that Weitzman was looking under can be seen to the SE of the official DPD site.   How could Weitzman have seen the rifle with those boxes that are on the south side of the rifle between his location and the rifle?   
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 07, 2022, 12:24:58 AM
The green arrow points to the location where the Official DPD in situ photo was taken.   There are boxes sitting on the floor. They were on the south side of the rifle in the official DPD photo.  The pallet that Weitzman was looking under can be seen to the SE of the official DPD site.   How could Weitzman have seen the rifle with those boxes that are on the south side of the rifle between his location and the rifle?

Bottom line - you don't know where Weitzman was looking from when he saw the rifle.

You also ignore the rest of Weitzman's testimony and choose what suits you:

Mr. Ball: Did you touch it?
Mr. Weitzman: No, sir; we made a man-tight barricade until the crime lab came up and removed the gun itself.
Mr. Ball: The crime lab from the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. Weitzman: Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball: Lieutenant Day and Captain Fritz?
Mr. Weitzman: I'm not sure what the lieutenant's name was, but I remember Captain Fritz.


Wetzman is clear that no-one touches the rifle until the crime lab [Day] removed it.
This removal was filmed by Ayea.
You also ignore Boone's testimony that perfectly describes the position of the rifle as it was shown in the Alyea footage and the DPD photos.
You don't know where Weitzman was when he saw the rifle and you have tried to weave a narrative out of your own uncertainty, whilst ignoring all other relevant evidence.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 07, 2022, 12:53:42 AM
Boone confirms the exact location of the rifle when he found it:

Mr. Ball: Now, 515 contains the arrow which shows the space between boxes where you found the rifle, is that right?
Mr. Boone: Yes.


(https://i.postimg.cc/GmvTCHxN/WCexhibit515.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The arrow points to the location the rifle was filmed by Alyea and photographed by the DPD.
How much more evidence do you need?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 07, 2022, 01:24:36 AM
Boone confirms the exact location of the rifle when he found it:

Mr. Ball: Now, 515 contains the arrow which shows the space between boxes where you found the rifle, is that right?
Mr. Boone: Yes.


(https://i.postimg.cc/GmvTCHxN/WCexhibit515.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The arrow points to the location the rifle was filmed by Alyea and photographed by the DPD.
How much more evidence do you need?

OK Dan, Carry on....I didn't realize that you had so much faith in LBJ's "Special Select Blue Ribbon Committee.

You are aware that their job was to satisfy the gullible American public that Lee Harrrrrvey Ossssswald was guilty....

I don't have much faith in the testimonies that they extracted from the witnesses.  What did Weitzman swear to in his affidavit?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 07, 2022, 02:00:43 AM
The photo of Fritz stood in the boxes with the rifle in an upright position at his feet is a still from the Alyea film.
It is taken before Day picks the rifle up. At this moment the rifle is in the same position as in the photos taken by Studebaker, meaning Studebaker took his pictures before Day picked up the rife.
This is solid film evidence the rifle was in the upright position when it was initially found.
Why you think the rifle had to be photographed in the upright position in order to frame Oswald is baffling.

I'm very confused about the fuss being made about Jerry Organ's graphic. I've put a green arrow in the first pic to show where the rifle was found.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RVcwM6gf/riflehidingplace2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Why you think the rifle had to be photographed in the upright position in order to frame Oswald is baffling.

The place that the rifle was hidden could not have been reached by Lee Oswald ( or any average sized man) if he had dashed through the aisle at the top of the stairs. .....And he would not have had enough time to hide that rifle beneath the pallet of books after the shooting and before he met Truly and Baker in the second floor lunchroom...   THUS The DPD were forced to create a photo that placed the rifle in a position that could have been reached by leaning over the row of boxes and inserting the rifle into the gap between the boxes.

Placing the rifle in the upright position is possible providing.....
 
A) Lee Oswald knew before the shooting that the gap was there to place the rifle in.....

B) Lee Oswald was one of the worlds strongest men, and he could hold that 9 pound rifle by the butt in a horizontal position while holding it in his left hand and inserting it into the gap.....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 07, 2022, 11:58:17 PM
OK Dan, Carry on....I didn't realize that you had so much faith in LBJ's "Special Select Blue Ribbon Committee.

You are aware that their job was to satisfy the gullible American public that Lee Harrrrrvey Ossssswald was guilty....

I don't have much faith in the testimonies that they extracted from the witnesses.  What did Weitzman swear to in his affidavit?

Faith in the Warren Commission? You must be joking.
The problem is you don't consider the evidence in it's totality. Tom Alyea is nothing to do with the WC. Here are his words regarding the discovery of the rifle:

"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle...About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see."

According to Alyea:
1) Boone locates rifle hidden by overhanging boxes
2) Alyea begins filming
3) Fritz stands in enclosure
4) Day and Studebaker arrive
5) They take still pictures
6) Day slides rifle out and holds it up

Both Boone and Weitzman are adamant they sealed the area until the crime lab arrived. Both men identify the location of the rifle when it was discovered. Alyea films the rifle in the position it was discovered.
Boone confirms the crime lab took photos of the rifle in situ before it was removed:

"I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the rifle was here...Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day--I am not sure. They came over and the weapon was photographed as it lay...and it was removed from the place where it was."


The film shows Fritz stepping into the "enclosure", as Alyea describes [the rifle is in the upright position]. Alyea begins filming immediately and captures the original position of the rifle, Studebaker taking photos of the rifle in situ, then Day removing the rifle.
For your scenario to work Boone, Weitzman and Alyea all have to be lying.
I do not accept this but you do.


Side note - Alyea goes on to say:

"Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards. When he had finished, he handed the rifle to Captain Fritz. Fritz pulled the bolt back and a live round ejected and landed on the boxes below. Fritz put the cartridge in his pocket. I did not see Fritz pick up anything other than the live round."

So Fritz removed the live round after Day dusted the rifle for prints. We do not see this in the Alyea footage. The position of the bolt, as Day turns towards the camera, is the same as when it was picked off the floor by Day.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 08, 2022, 12:19:51 AM
Faith in the Warren Commission? You must be joking.
The problem is you don't consider the evidence in it's totality. Tom Alyea is nothing to do with the WC. Here are his words regarding the discovery of the rifle:

"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle...About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see."

According to Alyea:
1) Boone locates rifle hidden by overhanging boxes
2) Alyea begins filming
3) Fritz stands in enclosure
4) Day and Studebaker arrive
5) They take still pictures
6) Day slides rifle out and holds it up

Both Boone and Weitzman are adamant they sealed the area until the crime lab arrived. Both men identify the location of the rifle when it was discovered. Alyea films the rifle in the position it was discovered.
Boone confirms the crime lab took photos of the rifle in situ before it was removed:

"I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the rifle was here...Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day--I am not sure. They came over and the weapon was photographed as it lay...and it was removed from the place where it was."


The film shows Fritz stepping into the "enclosure", as Alyea describes [the rifle is in the upright position]. Alyea begins filming immediately and captures the original position of the rifle, Studebaker taking photos of the rifle in situ, then Day removing the rifle.
For your scenario to work Boone, Weitzman and Alyea all have to be lying.
I do not accept this but you do.


Side note - Alyea goes on to say:

"Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards. When he had finished, he handed the rifle to Captain Fritz. Fritz pulled the bolt back and a live round ejected and landed on the boxes below. Fritz put the cartridge in his pocket. I did not see Fritz pick up anything other than the live round."

So Fritz removed the live round after Day dusted the rifle for prints. We do not see this in the Alyea footage. The position of the bolt, as Day turns towards the camera, is the same as when it was picked off the floor by Day.

I don't think that I can change your mind....  But do you have Alyea saying that it was obvious that he rifle had taken some time to hide .....So the assassin must have constructed the hiding place before the shooting.

Or words to that effect.    IOW Alyea knew that the rifle was not hastily jammed between boxes of books by one of the worlds strongest men.      I don't believe that Boone or Weitzman , or Alyea or Roger Craig were lying about the position of the rifle in their original affidavits.....  But when they testified before LBJ Special committee they answer the question as they had been instructed.

Simply because the description of the hiding place is verified by Boone and Weitzman when they appeared before the WC does NOT confirm that the photos were taken at about 1:45 that afternoon...
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 08, 2022, 12:32:40 AM
I don't think that I can change your mind....  But do you have Alyea saying that it was obvious that he rifle had taken some time to hide .....So the assassin must have constructed the hiding place before the shooting.

Or words to that effect.    IOW Alyea knew that the rifle was not hastily jammed between boxes of books by one of the worlds strongest men.      I don't believe that Boone or Weitzman , or Alyea or Roger Craig were lying about the position of the rifle in there original affidavits.....  But when the testified before LBJ Special committee they answer the question as they had been instructed.

Simply because the description of the hiding place is verified by Boone and Weitzman when they appeared before the WC does NOT confirm that the photos were taken at about 1:45 that afternoon...

Simply because the description of the hiding place is verified by Boone and Weitzman when they appeared before the WC does NOT confirm that the photos were taken at about 1:45 that afternoon...

Come on Walt, it's written in my post - Alyea confirms that the pictures were taken before the rifle was removed. He actually films Studebaker taking a photo before the rifle is removed.
The location of the rifle as verified by Boone and Weitzman is the same location as the rifle in the Alyea film - one thing corroborates the other.
Alyea confirms he starts filming immediately after it's discovery by Boone, he films Fritz walking into the enclosure, he films the rifle at Fritz's feet [in the upright position]

Provide some evidence that supports your position, not your interpretation of something ambiguous but direct evidence that supports your position.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 08, 2022, 12:40:32 AM
Faith in the Warren Commission? You must be joking.
The problem is you don't consider the evidence in it's totality. Tom Alyea is nothing to do with the WC. Here are his words regarding the discovery of the rifle:

"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle...About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see."

According to Alyea:
1) Boone locates rifle hidden by overhanging boxes
2) Alyea begins filming
3) Fritz stands in enclosure
4) Day and Studebaker arrive
5) They take still pictures
6) Day slides rifle out and holds it up

Both Boone and Weitzman are adamant they sealed the area until the crime lab arrived. Both men identify the location of the rifle when it was discovered. Alyea films the rifle in the position it was discovered.
Boone confirms the crime lab took photos of the rifle in situ before it was removed:

"I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the rifle was here...Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day--I am not sure. They came over and the weapon was photographed as it lay...and it was removed from the place where it was."


The film shows Fritz stepping into the "enclosure", as Alyea describes [the rifle is in the upright position]. Alyea begins filming immediately and captures the original position of the rifle, Studebaker taking photos of the rifle in situ, then Day removing the rifle.
For your scenario to work Boone, Weitzman and Alyea all have to be lying.
I do not accept this but you do.


Side note - Alyea goes on to say:

"Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards. When he had finished, he handed the rifle to Captain Fritz. Fritz pulled the bolt back and a live round ejected and landed on the boxes below. Fritz put the cartridge in his pocket. I did not see Fritz pick up anything other than the live round."

So Fritz removed the live round after Day dusted the rifle for prints. We do not see this in the Alyea footage. The position of the bolt, as Day turns towards the camera, is the same as when it was picked off the floor by Day.

I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards.

This is very important , Dan.....  Alyea says that he filmed Lt Day lifting  prints from the rifle ..... and placing the scotch tape lift on "little white cards ( index cards ) ....Day would have identified where the lift had been lifted from....and he did ....He scrawled on that index card " Off underside of of gun barrellC2766  (sic) near end of foregrip Day dated and initialed the index card.

I submit ...that Alyea is referring to the card that later became WC exhibit #630....._
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 08, 2022, 12:47:17 AM
Simply because the description of the hiding place is verified by Boone and Weitzman when they appeared before the WC does NOT confirm that the photos were taken at about 1:45 that afternoon...

Come on Walt, it's written in my post - Alyea confirms that the pictures were taken before the rifle was removed. He actually films Studebaker taking a photo before the rifle is removed.
The location of the rifle as verified by Boone and Weitzman is the same location as the rifle in the Alyea film - one thing corroborates the other.
Alyea confirms he starts filming immediately after it's discovery by Boone, he films Fritz walking into the enclosure, he films the rifle at Fritz's feet [in the upright position]

Provide some evidence that supports your position, not your interpretation of something ambiguous but direct evidence that supports your position.

Alright Dan.....If you own or have access to a rifle or shotgun similar in configuration to a mannlicher carcano....

Grab it by the butt and try to hold it horizontal with your left hand and insert into an opening like beneath a coffee table ....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 08, 2022, 02:11:31 AM
Faith in the Warren Commission? You must be joking.
The problem is you don't consider the evidence in it's totality. Tom Alyea is nothing to do with the WC. Here are his words regarding the discovery of the rifle:

"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle...About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see."

According to Alyea:
1) Boone locates rifle hidden by overhanging boxes
2) Alyea begins filming
3) Fritz stands in enclosure
4) Day and Studebaker arrive
5) They take still pictures
6) Day slides rifle out and holds it up

Both Boone and Weitzman are adamant they sealed the area until the crime lab arrived. Both men identify the location of the rifle when it was discovered. Alyea films the rifle in the position it was discovered.
Boone confirms the crime lab took photos of the rifle in situ before it was removed:

"I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the rifle was here...Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day--I am not sure. They came over and the weapon was photographed as it lay...and it was removed from the place where it was."


The film shows Fritz stepping into the "enclosure", as Alyea describes [the rifle is in the upright position]. Alyea begins filming immediately and captures the original position of the rifle, Studebaker taking photos of the rifle in situ, then Day removing the rifle.
For your scenario to work Boone, Weitzman and Alyea all have to be lying.
I do not accept this but you do.


Side note - Alyea goes on to say:

"Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards. When he had finished, he handed the rifle to Captain Fritz. Fritz pulled the bolt back and a live round ejected and landed on the boxes below. Fritz put the cartridge in his pocket. I did not see Fritz pick up anything other than the live round."

So Fritz removed the live round after Day dusted the rifle for prints. We do not see this in the Alyea footage. The position of the bolt, as Day turns towards the camera, is the same as when it was picked off the floor by Day.

3) Fritz stands in enclosure
4) Day and Studebaker arrive

 And at that time Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day-

Hmmmmm.... Boone says....."at that time Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day-"
Boone says that Fritz and Day arrive together.......

Which one is correct....
.2) Alyea begins filming
3) Fritz stands in enclosure
4) Day and Studebaker arrive
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 08, 2022, 05:08:53 PM
Alright Dan.....If you own or have access to a rifle or shotgun similar in configuration to a mannlicher carcano....

Grab it by the butt and try to hold it horizontal with your left hand and insert into an opening like beneath a coffee table ....

So, I'm presenting actual film footage of the rifle being removed as evidence.
Tom Alyea films the recovery of the rifle from the location and position it was discovered in - "I filmed it as it was found."
Boone and Weitzman confirm that the location of the rifle was the same as seen in the Alyea footage.
Both men testify that once the rifle was discovered they sealed off the area until the crime lab came over.
Alyea states that the DPD photos were taken before the rifle was removed.
Boone confirms the same thing.
Alyea actually films Studebaker taking a photo before the rifle was removed!!

I'm presenting actual film evidence of the rifle in it's original position, being photographed by the DPD and then being removed by Day.
The original position of the rifle is confirmed by Alyea, Boone and Weitzman.
That the DPD took still photos of the rifle in it's original position before it was removed by Day, is confirmed by Alyea and Boone and is actually on film!

In response, all you can say is for me to try and put a replica Mannlicher Carcano under a coffee table.  ::)

You will not accept the evidence and you have none of your own to support your theories.
You make stuff up then call the evidence into question because it refutes your made-up story.
 
As Oscar Wilde once quipped - "What the f%ck!"
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 08, 2022, 05:15:55 PM
So, I'm presenting actual film footage of the rifle being removed as evidence.
Tom Alyea films the recovery of the rifle from the location and position it was discovered in - "I filmed it as it was found."
Boone and Weitzman confirm that the location of the rifle was the same as seen in the Alyea footage.
Both men testify that once the rifle was discovered they sealed off the area until the crime lab came over.
Alyea states that the DPD photos were taken before the rifle was removed.
Boone confirms the same thing.
Alyea actually films Studebaker taking a photo before the rifle was removed!!

I'm presenting actual film evidence of the rifle in it's original position, being photographed by the DPD and then being removed by Day.
The original position of the rifle is confirmed by Alyea, Boone and Weitzman.
That the DPD took still photos of the rifle in it's original position before it was removed by Day, is confirmed by Alyea and Boone and is actually on film!

In response, all you can say is for me to try and put a replica Mannlicher Carcano under a coffee table.  ::)

You will not accept the evidence and you have none of your own to support your theories.
You make stuff up then call the evidence into question because it refutes your made-up story.
 
As Oscar Wilde once quipped - "What the f%ck!"

n response, all you can say is for me to try and put a replica Mannlicher Carcano under a coffee table.  ::)
Yes that's right  .... and if you can't hold a rifle by the butt with your left hand only, and hold the rifle horizontal, then Lee Oswald couldn't have held that Carcano by the butt and inserted it into that gap.

Dan you are doomed to run around chasing the wild goose because you accept the information that the shyster lawyers were able to extract from witnesses like Boone, and Weitzman, and Brennan and et al.....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 08, 2022, 06:39:33 PM
n response, all you can say is for me to try and put a replica Mannlicher Carcano under a coffee table.  ::)
Yes that's right  .... and if you can't hold a rifle by the butt with your left hand only, and hold the rifle horizontal, then Lee Oswald couldn't have held that Carcano by the butt and inserted it into that gap.

Dan you are doomed to run around chasing the wild goose because you accept the information that the shyster lawyers were able to extract from witnesses like Boone, and Weitzman, and Brennan and et al.....

The "information that the shyster lawyers were able to extract from witnesses like Boone, and Weitzman," is confirmed by Alyea's statements and film. This information is corroborated. There is actual film footage of the rifle being removed.
So, your argument that my opinion is solely based on the findings of the WC is completely incorrect.
On the other hand, you have zero evidence to support your own claims. So who is on a wild goose chase?

I do not believe Oswald took the shots and, as such, I'm not tied to the necessity of having the MC as the actual assassination weapon. It makes sense to me that the MC was a prop, the specific purpose of which was to frame Oswald for the shooting. I do not need to get into putting a Mannlicher Carcano under a coffee table for a simple reason - Oswald never put the rifle there. In all probability it was in this position as the shooting was taking place.

There is no need to have the DPD construct a hiding place for the rifle if it was already there when they arrived.
There is no need to stage the scene.
There is no need to falsify the photos.
There is no need for Alyea, Boone or Weitzman to lie about what they saw.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 08, 2022, 08:51:51 PM
The "information that the shyster lawyers were able to extract from witnesses like Boone, and Weitzman," is confirmed by Alyea's statements and film. This information is corroborated. There is actual film footage of the rifle being removed.
So, your argument that my opinion is solely based on the findings of the WC is completely incorrect.
On the other hand, you have zero evidence to support your own claims. So who is on a wild goose chase?

I do not believe Oswald took the shots and, as such, I'm not tied to the necessity of having the MC as the actual assassination weapon. It makes sense to me that the MC was a prop, the specific purpose of which was to frame Oswald for the shooting. I do not need to get into putting a Mannlicher Carcano under a coffee table for a simple reason - Oswald never put the rifle there. In all probability it was in this position as the shooting was taking place.

There is no need to have the DPD construct a hiding place for the rifle if it was already there when they arrived.
There is no need to stage the scene.
There is no need to falsify the photos.
There is no need for Alyea, Boone or Weitzman to lie about what they saw.

There is actual film footage of the rifle being removed.

Yes you're absolutely right.... And It was laying on it's side when Day grabbed the leather strap and picked it up....

There is no need to have the DPD construct a hiding place for the rifle if it was already there when they arrived.

You're right again....They did not construct the hiding place (which was beneath the pallet where Seymour Weitzman saw it in the beam of his flashlight)     

Question for you, Dan....  If the carcano had been sandwiched between the boxes would it have been possible for Seymour Weitzman to have seen it there, at the same time that Boone spotted it from above. ??   

That position beneath the pallet was too far away from the aisle at the top of stairs for Lee Oswald or any  5' 9" man to reach, The cops knew that....So they were forced to create the photos that have you convinced are authentic.  They apparently didn't realize that Tom Alyea still retained film that showed detective Day picking up the rifle FROM THE FLOOR where Seymour Weitzman said that He's seen it.    AND  Roger Craig is also on record of having seen the rifle  on the floor.....

At the time Boone , Weitzman and Alyea were waiting for Fritz to come to the site and take charge they talked among themselves about how the rifle was well hidden, and Tom Alyea observed that it clearly had taken an apreciable amount of time to construct that hiding place so the assassin must have prepared the hiding place before the shooting so he could quickly hide the rifle afterward.
At that time nobody knew that there would be a 75 second limit on the Time from the FIRST shot was fired until Baker and Truly encountered Lee Oswald ( the designate patsy ) in the 2nd floor lunchroom.   However while investigating the imaginary flight of Lee Oswald the cops discovered that he couldn't possible have hid that rifle beneath the pallet and still made it to the lunchroom in 75 seconds if he had hid that rifle where Seymour Weiztman said that he'd found it.  AT THAT POINT THE INVESTIGATORS KNEW FOR CERTAIN THAT LEE OSWALD WAS NOT GUILTY OF SHOOTING  JFK.     But they were charged with finding evidence that the dead Oswald was guilty  so they created photos that showed the carcano in a place that was closer to he aisle and  feasible for Lee Oswald to have dumped the rifle as he dashed by the site.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 08, 2022, 11:49:00 PM
There is actual film footage of the rifle being removed.

Yes you're absolutely right.... And It was laying on it's side when Day grabbed the leather strap and picked it up....

That's correct Walt, and it was filmed before that in the same upright position shown in the DPD photos

Quote
There is no need to have the DPD construct a hiding place for the rifle if it was already there when they arrived.

You're right again....They did not construct the hiding place (which was beneath the pallet where Seymour Weitzman saw it in the beam of his flashlight)     

Question for you, Dan....  If the carcano had been sandwiched between the boxes would it have been possible for Seymour Weitzman to have seen it there, at the same time that Boone spotted it from above. ??   

That position beneath the pallet was too far away from the aisle at the top of stairs for Lee Oswald or any  5' 9" man to reach, The cops knew that....So they were forced to create the photos that have you convinced are authentic.  They apparently didn't realize that Tom Alyea still retained film that showed detective Day picking up the rifle FROM THE FLOOR where Seymour Weitzman said that He's seen it.    AND  Roger Craig is also on record of having seen the rifle  on the floor.....

At the time Boone , Weitzman and Alyea were waiting for Fritz to come to the site and take charge they talked among themselves about how the rifle was well hidden, and Tom Alyea observed that it clearly had taken an apreciable amount of time to construct that hiding place so the assassin must have prepared the hiding place before the shooting so he could quickly hide the rifle afterward.
At that time nobody knew that there would be a 75 second limit on the Time from the FIRST shot was fired until Baker and Truly encountered Lee Oswald ( the designate patsy ) in the 2nd floor lunchroom.   However while investigating the imaginary flight of Lee Oswald the cops discovered that he couldn't possible have hid that rifle beneath the pallet and still made it to the lunchroom in 75 seconds if he had hid that rifle where Seymour Weiztman said that he'd found it.  AT THAT POINT THE INVESTIGATORS KNEW FOR CERTAIN THAT LEE OSWALD WAS NOT GUILTY OF SHOOTING  JFK.     But they were charged with finding evidence that the dead Oswald was guilty  so they created photos that showed the carcano in a place that was closer to he aisle and  feasible for Lee Oswald to have dumped the rifle as he dashed by the site.

At no point does anyone at any time say the rifle was found beneath a pallet.
Weitzman does not say the rifle was beneath a pallet. You've got that from your imagination.
You've created a whole scenario out of thin air.
The Alyea film shows the rifle in the upright position. Alyea states it is photographed before Day slides the rifle out then picks it up. It is then filmed as Day picks it off the floor by the strap.
ALL OF THIS IS FILMED.

Your notion that someone planted the rifle in a position that would have been impossible for Oswald to have done is just plain silly. Why would anyone do that?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 09, 2022, 12:20:08 AM
That's correct Walt, and it was filmed before that in the same upright position shown in the DPD photos

At no point does anyone at any time say the rifle was found beneath a pallet.
Weitzman does not say the rifle was beneath a pallet. You've got that from your imagination.
You've created a whole scenario out of thin air.
The Alyea film shows the rifle in the upright position. Alyea states it is photographed before Day slides the rifle out then picks it up. It is then filmed as Day picks it off the floor by the strap.
ALL OF THIS IS FILMED.

Your notion that someone planted the rifle in a position that would have been impossible for Oswald to have done is just plain silly. Why would anyone do that?

They didn't know at the time they hid the rifle that there would be a time limit of 75 seconds for Lee Oswald to hide the rifle.  The plan was that  they would kill Oswald and put the rifle near his body....But if something went wrong and they couldn't kill him, they would put his rifle along his obvious escape route.  ( Fritz: "Keep looking ...That rifle has to be her somewhere." )
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 09, 2022, 12:29:37 AM
So, I'm presenting actual film footage of the rifle being removed as evidence.
Tom Alyea films the recovery of the rifle from the location and position it was discovered in - "I filmed it as it was found."
Boone and Weitzman confirm that the location of the rifle was the same as seen in the Alyea footage.
Both men testify that once the rifle was discovered they sealed off the area until the crime lab came over.
Alyea states that the DPD photos were taken before the rifle was removed.
Boone confirms the same thing.
Alyea actually films Studebaker taking a photo before the rifle was removed!!

I'm presenting actual film evidence of the rifle in it's original position, being photographed by the DPD and then being removed by Day.
The original position of the rifle is confirmed by Alyea, Boone and Weitzman.
That the DPD took still photos of the rifle in it's original position before it was removed by Day, is confirmed by Alyea and Boone and is actually on film!

In response, all you can say is for me to try and put a replica Mannlicher Carcano under a coffee table.  ::)

You will not accept the evidence and you have none of your own to support your theories.
You make stuff up then call the evidence into question because it refutes your made-up story.
 
As Oscar Wilde once quipped - "What the f%ck!"

Mr. WEITZMAN. That is correct, Boone and I, and as he was looking over the
rear section of the building, I would say the northwest corner, I was on the
floor looking under the flat at the same time he was looking on the top side and
we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said, “There it is” and he
started hollering, “We got it.” It was covered with boxes. It was well protected as far as the naked eye because I would venture to say eight or nine of
us stumbled over that gun a couple times before we thoroughly searched the
building.

Mr. BALL. Did you touch it?
Mr. WEITZMAN. NO, sir; we m

I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he was looking on the top side and

we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said, “There it is” and he
started hollering, “We got it.”  It was covered with boxes.
It was well protected as far as the naked eye because I would venture to say eight or nine of us stumbled over that gun a couple times before we thoroughly searched the building

Could Weitzman have seen the rifle as he described if the rifle was sandwiched between the boxes as it is shown in the DPD insitu photo?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 09, 2022, 09:26:21 AM
They didn't know at the time they hid the rifle that there would be a time limit of 75 seconds for Lee Oswald to hide the rifle.  The plan was that  they would kill Oswald and put the rifle near his body....But if something went wrong and they couldn't kill him, they would put his rifle along his obvious escape route.  ( Fritz: "Keep looking ...That rifle has to be her somewhere." )

This is 100% fantasy.
You have completely made all of this up and there is zero/nil/no evidence to support this fantasy.
How is it possible to have a reasonable debate with someone who puts their own fantasy over the evidence?

This is the bottom line Walt - the rifle was found in an upright position, placed between boxes with another box overhanging it. As soon as it was discovered the area was sealed off and no-one touched the rifle. Tom Alyea began filming. He film Fritz walking into the enclosure, he filmed the rifle at Fritz's feet in the upright position. Photos were then taken by the crime lab of the rifle in situ, Alyea actually filmed Studebaker taking one of these photos. Day then slid the rifle out of it's hiding position and picked it up by the strap, again, filmed by Alyea.

That's it. That's what the evidence tells us.
Alyea was not part of the Warren Commission's biased investigation. He was completely independent. His film and his observations at the time, corroborate the testimony of Boone and Weitzman for the main details - location of rifle when discovered, DPD photos taken before rifle was moved etc.

Your "theory" is not a theory because it does not have one iota of support by any evidence - this is what makes it a fantasy. It is completely unsupported by the evidence. Not only that, it is completely refuted by the available evidence. As such, I have no further interest in discussing this particular aspect of the case.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 09, 2022, 01:45:34 PM
This is 100% fantasy.
You have completely made all of this up and there is zero/nil/no evidence to support this fantasy.
How is it possible to have a reasonable debate with someone who puts their own fantasy over the evidence?

This is the bottom line Walt - the rifle was found in an upright position, placed between boxes with another box overhanging it. As soon as it was discovered the area was sealed off and no-one touched the rifle. Tom Alyea began filming. He film Fritz walking into the enclosure, he filmed the rifle at Fritz's feet in the upright position. Photos were then taken by the crime lab of the rifle in situ, Alyea actually filmed Studebaker taking one of these photos. Day then slid the rifle out of it's hiding position and picked it up by the strap, again, filmed by Alyea.

That's it. That's what the evidence tells us.
Alyea was not part of the Warren Commission's biased investigation. He was completely independent. His film and his observations at the time, corroborate the testimony of Boone and Weitzman for the main details - location of rifle when discovered, DPD photos taken before rifle was moved etc.

Your "theory" is not a theory because it does not have one iota of support by any evidence - this is what makes it a fantasy. It is completely unsupported by the evidence. Not only that, it is completely refuted by the available evidence. As such, I have no further interest in discussing this particular aspect of the case.

Mr. WEITZMAN. That is correct, Boone and I, and as he was looking over the
rear section of the building, I would say the northwest corner, I was on the
floor looking under the flat at the same time he was looking on the top side and
we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said, “There it is” and he
started hollering, “We got it.” It was covered with boxes. It was well protected as far as the naked eye because I would venture to say eight or nine of
us stumbled over that gun a couple times before we thoroughly searched the
building.
Mr. BALL. Did you touch it?
Mr. WEITZMAN. NO, sir; we m

I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he was looking on the top side and

we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said, “There it is” and he
started hollering, “We got it.”  It was covered with boxes. It was well protected as far as the naked eye because I would venture to say eight or nine of us stumbled over that gun a couple times before we thoroughly searched the building

Could Weitzman have seen the rifle as he described if the rifle was sandwiched between the boxes as it is shown in the DPD insitu photo?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 09, 2022, 06:18:54 PM
This is 100% fantasy.
You have completely made all of this up and there is zero/nil/no evidence to support this fantasy.
How is it possible to have a reasonable debate with someone who puts their own fantasy over the evidence?

This is the bottom line Walt - the rifle was found in an upright position, placed between boxes with another box overhanging it. As soon as it was discovered the area was sealed off and no-one touched the rifle. Tom Alyea began filming. He film Fritz walking into the enclosure, he filmed the rifle at Fritz's feet in the upright position. Photos were then taken by the crime lab of the rifle in situ, Alyea actually filmed Studebaker taking one of these photos. Day then slid the rifle out of it's hiding position and picked it up by the strap, again, filmed by Alyea.

That's it. That's what the evidence tells us.
Alyea was not part of the Warren Commission's biased investigation. He was completely independent. His film and his observations at the time, corroborate the testimony of Boone and Weitzman for the main details - location of rifle when discovered, DPD photos taken before rifle was moved etc.

Your "theory" is not a theory because it does not have one iota of support by any evidence - this is what makes it a fantasy. It is completely unsupported by the evidence. Not only that, it is completely refuted by the available evidence. As such, I have no further interest in discussing this particular aspect of the case.

This is 100% fantasy.
You have completely made all of this up and there is zero/nil/no evidence to support this fantasy.
How is it possible to have a reasonable debate with someone who puts their own fantasy over the evidence?


Yes it is "made Up"..... But that's necessary to get some dunder heads to see what the plot might have been....

Why don't you answer the question..... Could Seymour Weitzman have seen the rifle when he was on the floor and looking beneath the flat ..... IF THAT RIFLE WAS SANDWICHED BETWEEN THE BOXES ??     In the official DPD in situ photo aren't there boxes sitting on the floor on the south side of the rifle that would have obstructed Weitzman's  line of sight?     There's no doubt that Weitzman saw the rifle at the same instant that Boone saw the rifle.... And Weitzman said that the rifle was beneath the flat (pallet)    So please answer the question: 

Could Seymour Weitzman have seen the rifle when he was on the floor and looking beneath the flat ..... IF THAT RIFLE WAS SANDWICHED BETWEEN THE BOXES ?? 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 09, 2022, 09:11:19 PM
This is 100% fantasy.
You have completely made all of this up and there is zero/nil/no evidence to support this fantasy.
How is it possible to have a reasonable debate with someone who puts their own fantasy over the evidence?


Yes it is "made Up"..... But that's necessary to get some dunder heads to see what the plot might have been....

Why don't you answer the question..... Could Seymour Weitzman have seen the rifle when he was on the floor and looking beneath the flat ..... IF THAT RIFLE WAS SANDWICHED BETWEEN THE BOXES ??     In the official DPD in situ photo aren't there boxes sitting on the floor on the south side of the rifle that would have obstructed Weitzman's  line of sight?     There's no doubt that Weitzman saw the rifle at the same instant that Boone saw the rifle.... And Weitzman said that the rifle was beneath the flat (pallet)    So please answer the question: 

Could Seymour Weitzman have seen the rifle when he was on the floor and looking beneath the flat ..... IF THAT RIFLE WAS SANDWICHED BETWEEN THE BOXES ?? 

Yes, Weitzman could have seen part of the rfife, not the whole rifle, while he was looking through the pallet.
Please quote where Weitzman said the rifle was beneath the pallet [do not ignore]
A question for you - if the rifle was beneath the pallet as you apparently believe, how did Boone see it?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 10, 2022, 12:17:04 AM
Yes, Weitzman could have seen part of the rfife, not the whole rifle, while he was looking through the pallet.
Please quote where Weitzman said the rifle was beneath the pallet [do not ignore]
A question for you - if the rifle was beneath the pallet as you apparently believe, how did Boone see it?

Please quote where Weitzman said the rifle was beneath the pallet


I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he was looking on the top side and
we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said, “There it is”
----Seymour Weitzman

if the rifle was beneath the pallet as you apparently believe, how did Boone see it?

The rifle was not completely beneath the pallet the butt was sticking out from beneath that pallet .....Boone said that he could see only a small bit of the butt when he shined his light down to the bottom of that cavern.

Please review the photos that show the rifle sandwiched between the boxes and try to imagine how Weitzman could have seen the rifle that was behind the boxes.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 10, 2022, 02:10:20 AM
So why did not Boone say that Lt Day was the one who lifted the rifle “from its place” ?

Boone said that FRITZ was the one who lifted the rifle from its place using the sling.

If Boone and or Weitzman were still present in proximity Aleya filming  Fritz and Day as they were examining the rifle then Weitzman and Boone should have been able to ascertain that their initial opinion of the rifle being a Mauser was Incorrect.

Therefore it seems odd that they both LATER less file an affidavit described the rifle  a
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 10, 2022, 02:23:06 AM
Both Weitzman and Boone if in the presence of Tom Aleya filming Lt.Day lifting the rifle and they saw  Fritz and Day examine the rifle and then for some reason hours LATER, Weitzman and Boone nonetheless  still apparently are of the opinion rifle was a Mauser.

Didn’t they at least hear Lt Day speak of the rifle being made in Italy or heard from Fritz when he ejected the shell and found the other shells that the shells were 6.5mm ?

Seems to be some time problem with Weitzman and Boone thats not quite in sync with the sequence in order of the finding of the rifle, followed by a photo and then Aleya’s film segment.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 10, 2022, 10:20:58 AM
Please quote where Weitzman said the rifle was beneath the pallet


I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he was looking on the top side and
we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said, “There it is”
----Seymour Weitzman

Weitzman is saying he saw the rifle while he was on the ground, looking under the flat [pallet].
He is not saying he saw the rifle under the pallet. This is confirmed by Boone

Quote
if the rifle was beneath the pallet as you apparently believe, how did Boone see it?

The rifle was not completely beneath the pallet the butt was sticking out from beneath that pallet .....Boone said that he could see only a small bit of the butt when he shined his light down to the bottom of that cavern.

Please review the photos that show the rifle sandwiched between the boxes and try to imagine how Weitzman could have seen the rifle that was behind the boxes.

Once again, complete fantasy.
Boone states:

"...I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it."

This is a specific point you have been caught out on. Boone describes, exactly, the position of the rifle when he discovers it - stuffed between two boxes, with another box pulled over the top of it. This is exactly what we see in the Alyea film and exactly what we see in the DPD photos.
The original position of the rifle in the Alyea film is stuffed between boxes with a box pulled over it.
The position of the rifle in the DPD pics is between two boxes with a box pulled over the top [both Alyea and Boone confirm the DPD pics were taken before the rifle was removed]

So, here we have you making up the situation where Weitzman says he found the rifle under the pallet [which he never did, he could see the end of the rifle in it's hiding place as he was looking through the pallet]
You have tried to strengthen this mistake by saying Boone saw the end of the rifle sticking out from under the pallet.
But Boone specifically describes the original position of the rifle [stuffed between boxes with a box pulled over the top], as it is filmed by Alyea and photographed by the DPD.
Your invention of Boone seeing part of the rifle sticking out from under the pallet has been proven to be incorrect. Do you accept that?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 10, 2022, 10:46:05 AM
Both Weitzman and Boone if in the presence of Tom Aleya filming Lt.Day lifting the rifle and they saw  Fritz and Day examine the rifle and then for some reason hours LATER, Weitzman and Boone nonetheless  still apparently are of the opinion rifle was a Mauser.

Didn’t they at least hear Lt Day speak of the rifle being made in Italy or heard from Fritz when he ejected the shell and found the other shells that the shells were 6.5mm ?

Seems to be some time problem with Weitzman and Boone thats not quite in sync with the sequence in order of the finding of the rifle, followed by a photo and then Aleya’s film segment.

Both Weitzman and Boone if in the presence of Tom Aleya filming Lt.Day lifting the rifle and they saw  Fritz and Day examine the rifle and then for some reason hours LATER, Weitzman and Boone nonetheless  still apparently are of the opinion rifle was a Mauser.

Hi Zeon,
In his WC testimony regarding the position of the rifle when it was first found, Boone confirms Alyea was filming the whole thing:

"There was some newsman up there right behind Officer Whitman [Weitzman] and myself who took movie film of it too. I don't know his name."

Boone describes the original position of the rifle as "stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it."
This is an exact description of the rifle as it originally appears  in the Alyea footage.
Alyea has this to say about his initial filming:

"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle."

Once again we hear Boone discovered the rifle and that it was hidden by overhanging boxes. Alyea filmed the rifle "as it was found", that is to say, in the exact position it was discovered in [stuffed between boxes with a box overhanging it]. The filming starts with "Fritz standing within the enclosure", exactly as we see in the film.

Both Weitzman and Boone are adamant that once the rifle was discovered the area was sealed off until the crime lab came over.

All this points to one very simple fact - Tom Alyea filmed the rifle in it's original position and filmed it being removed.
In the Alyea footage, the rifle removed by Day is NOT a Mauser.
Yet Boone and Weitzman went on to describe it as such.

How do we explain this?
That Boone and Weitzman were mistaken? That, as Boone said, he overheard someone, possibly Fritz, describe it as a Mauser and he simply accepted that.

Or do we get into the realms of "the Alyea film was faked"?

Which seems more likely?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 10, 2022, 03:34:43 PM
Weitzman is saying he saw the rifle while he was on the ground, looking under the flat [pallet].
He is not saying he saw the rifle under the pallet. This is confirmed by Boone

Once again, complete fantasy.
Boone states:

"...I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it."

This is a specific point you have been caught out on. Boone describes, exactly, the position of the rifle when he discovers it - stuffed between two boxes, with another box pulled over the top of it. This is exactly what we see in the Alyea film and exactly what we see in the DPD photos.
The original position of the rifle in the Alyea film is stuffed between boxes with a box pulled over it.
The position of the rifle in the DPD pics is between two boxes with a box pulled over the top [both Alyea and Boone confirm the DPD pics were taken before the rifle was removed]

So, here we have you making up the situation where Weitzman says he found the rifle under the pallet [which he never did, he could see the end of the rifle in it's hiding place as he was looking through the pallet]
You have tried to strengthen this mistake by saying Boone saw the end of the rifle sticking out from under the pallet.
But Boone specifically describes the original position of the rifle [stuffed between boxes with a box pulled over the top], as it is filmed by Alyea and photographed by the DPD.
Your invention of Boone seeing part of the rifle sticking out from under the pallet has been proven to be incorrect. Do you accept that?

Ok Dan... Continue chasing the wild goose.... Have fun.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 10, 2022, 10:38:45 PM
since Imo Oswald was NOT the 6th floor TSBD shooter (for a myriad of reasons) , then some other shooter either fired the MC rifle or he used some other rifle.

If the TSBD shooter Used another rifle, and also planted an MC rifle to frame Oswald ,  then he likely would  have pre planted  the MC rifle and made sure it was WELL hidden so as not to be inadvertently  discovered by some employee moving a few boxes. Therefore  Walt’s proposition that the original location of the MC may have been INSIDE a pallet stacked full of boxes is plausible. This one possible solution  to explain how Weitzman could see a rifle while he was  looking westward thru the open part of a pallet stacked full of boxes.

The only way to prove  an alternative LOS solution for  Weitzman would require analysis  of the diagonal line from the southeast corner of the pallet to the north west corner of the pallet and if that diagonal lines up with the location of the rifle. There also would have to be a missing box at ground level as in in the photo of the rifle For such a diagonal LOS to be plausible.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 10, 2022, 11:05:20 PM
since Imo Oswald was NOT the 6th floor TSBD shooter (for a myriad of reasons) , then some other shooter either fired the MC rifle or he used some other rifle.

If the TSBD shooter Used another rifle, and also planted an MC rifle to frame Oswald ,  then he likely would  have pre planted  the MC rifle and made sure it was WELL hidden so as not to be inadvertently  discovered by some employee moving a few boxes. Therefore  Walt’s proposition that the original location of the MC may have been INSIDE a pallet stacked full of boxes is plausible. This one possible solution  to explain how Weitzman could see a rifle while he was  looking westward thru the open part of a pallet stacked full of boxes.

The only way to prove  an alternative LOS solution for  Weitzman would require analysis  of the diagonal line from the southeast corner of the pallet to the north west corner of the pallet and if that diagonal lines up with the location of the rifle. There also would have to be a missing box at ground level as in in the photo of the rifle For such a diagonal LOS to be plausible.

Zeon, I doubt that the entire carcano was beneath the pallet .....And since Boone said that he saw only a small portion of the butt of the rifle when he shined his flashlight down into the dark cavern that was created by stacking boxes of books in a manner to form a cavern. I'd guess that at least 75% of the rifle was beneath the pallet ..... And of course I have no way of knowing whether the rifle was under the open end of the N/S slats of the pallet, but I'd speculate that it was pointed east beneath those N/S slats.  ( Seymour Weitzman was looing right down the barrel of the rifle.)  If the rifle had been sandwiched between boxes as it is shown in the DPD photo ( CE 514)  There would have been boxes between his eyes ( and flashlight)  and the rifle so he could not have seen the rifle.

And Weitzman specifically said that he looked beneath the flat and saw the rifle lying on the floor.   
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 11, 2022, 12:44:19 AM
Walt, I generally agree that it does not appear to be probable that Weitzman could have had any clear LOS to a rifle that was supposedly positioned as seen in the photo, while he was on the floor at the east side of the pallet and looking westward thru the open space of the pallet.

However if Jerry Organ would like to attempt to prove otherwise by using his computer 3d modeling program …👍
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 11, 2022, 01:53:48 AM
Walt, I generally agree that it does not appear to be probable that Weitzman could have had any clear LOS to a rifle that was supposedly positioned as seen in the photo, while he was on the floor at the east side of the pallet and looking westward thru the open space of the pallet.

However if Jerry Organ would like to attempt to prove otherwise by using his computer 3d modeling program …👍

Either Seymour Weitzman was lying, or the official DPD photo that shows the rifle sandwiched between the boxes is a fake.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 11, 2022, 12:16:25 PM
Jerry posted this image on another thread:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qMZ1BYzF/riflehidingplace1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYW32Bdd)

He seems to have misunderstood that Weitzman was on the floor looking through a pallet.
In the graphic the yellow/orange arrows are Jerry's and are part of the original graphic to which I have made some additions.
Ignore the yellow/orange arrows.

The stack of boxes marked with a green "A" in each pic rests on a pallet [it is the same stack seen from different angles]
To the bottom picture I have added a green arrow to give an indication of Weitzman's LoS as he was on the floor looking through the pallet.
It demonstrates that Weitzman could have seen the barrel portion of the rifle from his viewpoint.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 11, 2022, 02:25:34 PM
Jerry posted this image on another thread:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qMZ1BYzF/riflehidingplace1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYW32Bdd)

He seems to have misunderstood that Weitzman was on the floor looking through a pallet.
In the graphic the yellow/orange arrows are Jerry's and are part of the original graphic to which I have made some additions.
Ignore the yellow/orange arrows.

The stack of boxes marked with a green "A" in each pic rests on a pallet [it is the same stack seen from different angles]
To the bottom picture I have added a green arrow to give an indication of Weitzman's LoS as he was on the floor looking through the pallet.
It demonstrates that Weitzman could have seen the barrel portion of the rifle from his viewpoint.

A person cannot use fake photos to verify what a scene looked like before anything was moved.

I don't wish to debate this any longer, Dan.   Seymour Weitzman said that he was down on the floor a LOOKING BENEATH THE FLAT when he saw the rifle.   He could not have shined his flashlight on the rifle and he couldn't have seen the rifle if it was sandwiched
between the boxes, because there were boxes that obstructed his view.    But that's beside the point....He was looking BENEATH THE PALLET when he saw the rifle.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 11, 2022, 04:00:47 PM
Next you crackpots will demand that they stop the Queen's motorcade and produce evidence that she is indeed in the coffin.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 11, 2022, 06:30:47 PM
since Imo Oswald was NOT the 6th floor TSBD shooter (for a myriad of reasons) , then some other shooter either fired the MC rifle or he used some other rifle.

If the TSBD shooter Used another rifle, and also planted an MC rifle to frame Oswald ,  then he likely would  have pre planted  the MC rifle and made sure it was WELL hidden so as not to be inadvertently  discovered by some employee moving a few boxes. Therefore  Walt’s proposition that the original location of the MC may have been INSIDE a pallet stacked full of boxes is plausible. This one possible solution  to explain how Weitzman could see a rifle while he was  looking westward thru the open part of a pallet stacked full of boxes.

The only way to prove  an alternative LOS solution for  Weitzman would require analysis  of the diagonal line from the southeast corner of the pallet to the north west corner of the pallet and if that diagonal lines up with the location of the rifle. There also would have to be a missing box at ground level as in in the photo of the rifle For such a diagonal LOS to be plausible.

The only way to prove  an alternative LOS solution for  Weitzman would require analysis  of the diagonal line from the southeast corner of the pallet to the north west corner of the pallet and if that diagonal lines up with the location of the rifle. There also would have to be a missing box at ground level as in in the photo of the rifle For such a diagonal LOS to be plausible.

It's not that complicated..... Weitzman said that he was shining his flashlight beneath the pallet when he saw the rifle.

If he was shining his flashlight beneath the pallet and looking beneath the pallet...He was NOT looking above the pallet and looking north west....   And he couldn't have looked NW from his position because there were boxes that blocked his view.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 11, 2022, 10:25:54 PM
A person cannot use fake photos to verify what a scene looked like before anything was moved.

I don't wish to debate this any longer, Dan.   Seymour Weitzman said that he was down on the floor a LOOKING BENEATH THE FLAT when he saw the rifle.   He could not have shined his flashlight on the rifle and he couldn't have seen the rifle if it was sandwiched
between the boxes, because there were boxes that obstructed his view.    But that's beside the point....He was looking BENEATH THE PALLET when he saw the rifle.

I don't wish to debate this any longer, Dan.

Debate??
There's been no debate Walt.
As I posted earlier about your proposed scenario:

This is 100% fantasy.
You have completely made all of this up and there is zero/nil/no evidence to support this fantasy.
How is it possible to have a reasonable debate with someone who puts their own fantasy over the evidence?

To which you unabashedly responded:

Yes it is "made up"

There's been no debate.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 11, 2022, 10:37:31 PM
I don't wish to debate this any longer, Dan.

Debate??
There's been no debate Walt.
As I posted earlier about your proposed scenario:

This is 100% fantasy.
You have completely made all of this up and there is zero/nil/no evidence to support this fantasy.
How is it possible to have a reasonable debate with someone who puts their own fantasy over the evidence?

To which you unabashedly responded:

Yes it is "made up"

There's been no debate.

Dan, you're being dishonest.... You know that I was making up the part about they planned to kill Lee Oswald on the sixth floor and leave the carcano beside his body....But if he wasn't there, they would leave the rifle hidden along his escape route ......

Lee wasn't on the sixth floor ( he was in the Domino room)

I'm sorry if you don't like that idea..... But Don't be dishonest and say I made up the part about Seymour Weitzman saying that he spotted the rifle when he shined his flashlight beneath the pallet.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 11, 2022, 11:33:43 PM
Dan, you're being dishonest.... You know that I was making up the part about they planned to kill Lee Oswald on the sixth floor and leave the carcano beside his body....But if he wasn't there, they would leave the rifle hidden along his escape route ......

Lee wasn't on the sixth floor ( he was in the Domino room)

I'm sorry if you don't like that idea..... But Don't be dishonest and say I made up the part about Seymour Weitzman saying that he spotted the rifle when he shined his flashlight beneath the pallet.

You're the one being dishonest Walt.
My post about your theory being "100% fantasy" had nothing to do with Weitzman looking beneath the pallet.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 12, 2022, 12:15:07 AM
You're the one being dishonest Walt.
My post about your theory being "100% fantasy" had nothing to do with Weitzman looking beneath the pallet.

Perhaps I don't know what !00% means..... 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 12, 2022, 09:44:34 AM
@Dan: are you aware that your slightly diagonal  green arrow LOS is going THRU a box which is laying on the ground?

So that would an obstruction even along a diagonal line at the ground plane from the Southeast corner side of the pallet to the Northeest corner

If Weitzman was looking instead thru the gap the arrows illustrate , then he  had to be at the south WEST corner of the pallet,, looking directly NORTH and also have his head about at least 3ft above the  floor plane  (it appears to me ) to get a vertical diagonal LOS over a 2nd level high box on the opposite side of that gap to be able to see OVER that box to see that small portion barrel end of the rifle

There was definitely  No LOS possible for Weitzman imo, to any portion of the butt and center portion of the stock of the rifle due to a box in the way at the time Weitzman and Boone discovered the rifle, That box was the one removed later to allow more of the rifle to be photographed.

So, I cannot see how Weitzman could have seen ANY portion of the rifle unless he was basically NOT looking Under the flat , was NOT at the East side of the pallet looking west or even Northwest, and he was actually STANDING at the South WEST corner of the pallet peering OVER that 2nd level box directly opposite the gap he theoretically could have looked thru.

So either Weitzman is  incorrect about his position AT THE INSTANT the he saw the rifle or he meant  he was EARLIER looking “under a flat “ before then changing his position to  the gap and THEN saw the rifle as he stood up and able to look OVER a 2nd level high box to see a portion of the rifle barrel.

So the choice still seems to be either Weitzman was mistaken or he saw the rifle in a different location. If the latter , then Boone had to have seen the rifle in that other location also and then both men opted to participate in a post event fraud.

@Walt: if the rifle  was preplanted then it should not ALL   the rifle be inside the pallet as surely the intent was to make sure the rifle was WELK hidden so not to be inadvertently discovered. Therefore I have to disagree with the idea that any portion of.the rifle would be visibly sticking out of the pallet.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 12, 2022, 10:06:13 AM
@Dan: are you aware that your slightly diagonal  green arrow LOS is going THRU a box which is laying on the ground?

So that would an obstruction even along a diagonal line at the ground plane from the Southeast corner side of the pallet to the Northeest corner

If Weitzman was looking instead thru the gap the arrows illustrate , then he  had to be at the south WEST corner of the pallet,, looking directly NORTH and also have his head about at least 3ft above the  floor plane  (it appears to me ) to get a vertical diagonal LOS over a 2nd level high box on the opposite side of that gap to be able to see OVER that box to see that small portion barrel end of the rifle

There was definitely  No LOS possible for Weitzman imo, to any portion of the butt and center portion of the stock of the rifle due to a box in the way at the time Weitzman and Boone discovered the rifle, That box was the one removed later to allow more of the rifle to be photographed.

So, I cannot see how Weitzman could have seen ANY portion of the rifle unless he was basically NOT looking Under the flat , was NOT at the East side of the pallet looking west or even Northwest, and he was actually STANDING at the South WEST corner of the pallet peering OVER that 2nd level box directly opposite the gap he theoretically could have looked thru.

So either Weitzman is  incorrect about his position AT THE INSTANT the he saw the rifle or he meant  he was EARLIER looking “under a flat “ before then changing his position to  the gap and THEN saw the rifle as he stood up and able to look OVER a 2nd level high box to see a portion of the rifle barrel.

So the choice still seems to be either Weitzman was mistaken or he saw the rifle in a different location. If the latter , then Boone had to have seen the rifle in that other location also and then both men opted to participate in a post event fraud.

@Walt: if the rifle  was preplanted then it should not ALL   the rifle be inside the pallet as surely the intent was to make sure the rifle was WELK hidden so not to be inadvertently discovered. Therefore I have to disagree with the idea that any portion of.the rifle would be visibly sticking out of the pallet.

@Dan: are you aware that your slightly diagonal  green arrow LOS is going THRU a box which is laying on the ground?

The arrow isn't going through a box laying on the ground, it's going over some paper laying on the ground.
Weitzman would have had no problem seeing the barrel portion of the rifle whilst looking through the pallet.
The fact that there is a pallet at this location is very telling. Most of the stacks on the 6th floor that I've seen in photos don't have a pallet underneath. In fact, the one near the rifle is the only one I can find. But I've no doubt you could say it's just a coincidence that there was a pallet in a position where someone looking through it could see the rifle or that Weitzman got lucky etc.
Why you would imagine Weitzman made up looking through the pallet is beyond me. I've no doubt you've got some kind of reason for believing that.
However, the actual evidence demonstrates there was a pallet in the location Weitzman described, and that it was possible for him to see the barrel portion of the rifle while looking through it.

Out of curiosity, why do you believe Weitzman made up a story about looking through a pallet when he saw the rifle?
What purpose does such a story serve?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 12, 2022, 02:41:30 PM
@Dan: are you aware that your slightly diagonal  green arrow LOS is going THRU a box which is laying on the ground?

So that would an obstruction even along a diagonal line at the ground plane from the Southeast corner side of the pallet to the Northeest corner

If Weitzman was looking instead thru the gap the arrows illustrate , then he  had to be at the south WEST corner of the pallet,, looking directly NORTH and also have his head about at least 3ft above the  floor plane  (it appears to me ) to get a vertical diagonal LOS over a 2nd level high box on the opposite side of that gap to be able to see OVER that box to see that small portion barrel end of the rifle

There was definitely  No LOS possible for Weitzman imo, to any portion of the butt and center portion of the stock of the rifle due to a box in the way at the time Weitzman and Boone discovered the rifle, That box was the one removed later to allow more of the rifle to be photographed.

So, I cannot see how Weitzman could have seen ANY portion of the rifle unless he was basically NOT looking Under the flat , was NOT at the East side of the pallet looking west or even Northwest, and he was actually STANDING at the South WEST corner of the pallet peering OVER that 2nd level box directly opposite the gap he theoretically could have looked thru.

So either Weitzman is  incorrect about his position AT THE INSTANT the he saw the rifle or he meant  he was EARLIER looking “under a flat “ before then changing his position to  the gap and THEN saw the rifle as he stood up and able to look OVER a 2nd level high box to see a portion of the rifle barrel.

So the choice still seems to be either Weitzman was mistaken or he saw the rifle in a different location. If the latter , then Boone had to have seen the rifle in that other location also and then both men opted to participate in a post event fraud.

@Walt: if the rifle  was preplanted then it should not ALL   the rifle be inside the pallet as surely the intent was to make sure the rifle was WELK hidden so not to be inadvertently discovered. Therefore I have to disagree with the idea that any portion of.the rifle would be visibly sticking out of the pallet.


WHEN were these photos taken?

Please explain why Tom Alyea's film shows the rifle lying on it's side when Lt Day reaches out to pick up the rifle by the leather strap.



(https://i.postimg.cc/qMZ1BYzF/riflehidingplace1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYW32Bdd)

He seems to have misunderstood that Weitzman was on the floor looking through a pallet.
In the graphic the yellow/orange arrows are Jerry's and are part of the original graphic to which I have made some additions.
Ignore the yellow/orange arrows.

The stack of boxes marked with a green "A" in each pic rests on a pallet [it is the same stack seen from different angles]
To the bottom picture I have added a green arrow to give an indication of Weitzman's LoS as he was on the floor looking through the pallet.
It demonstrates that Weitzman could have seen the barrel portion of the rifle from his viewpoint
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 12, 2022, 03:10:06 PM

WHEN were these photos taken?

Please explain why Tom Alyea's film shows the rifle lying on it's side when Lt Day reaches out to pick up the rifle by the leather strap.



(https://i.postimg.cc/qMZ1BYzF/riflehidingplace1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYW32Bdd)

He seems to have misunderstood that Weitzman was on the floor looking through a pallet.
In the graphic the yellow/orange arrows are Jerry's and are part of the original graphic to which I have made some additions.
Ignore the yellow/orange arrows.

The stack of boxes marked with a green "A" in each pic rests on a pallet [it is the same stack seen from different angles]
To the bottom picture I have added a green arrow to give an indication of Weitzman's LoS as he was on the floor looking through the pallet.
It demonstrates that Weitzman could have seen the barrel portion of the rifle from his viewpoint

WHEN were these photos taken?

The top pic is from the Alyea footage so would have been taken on the day.
The bottom pic is a DPD photo taken before the rifle was moved from it's hiding position.
Not sure about the middle one.

Please explain why Tom Alyea's film shows the rifle lying on it's side when Lt Day reaches out to pick up the rifle by the leather strap.

After Day slid the rifle out from it's hiding place it [where it was filmed in the upright position], the rifle fell on it's side, then Day picked it up [as seen in the Alyea footage].
Tom Alyea has this to say about it:

"Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see."


Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 12, 2022, 03:23:32 PM
WHEN were these photos taken?

The top pic is from the Alyea footage so would have been taken on the day.
The bottom pic is a DPD photo taken before the rifle was moved from it's hiding position.
Not sure about the middle one.

Please explain why Tom Alyea's film shows the rifle lying on it's side when Lt Day reaches out to pick up the rifle by the leather strap.

After Day slid the rifle out from it's hiding place it [where it was filmed in the upright position], the rifle fell on it's side, then Day picked it up [as seen in the Alyea footage].
Tom Alyea has this to say about it:

"Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see."

If the stack of boxes are the boxes that were on the pallet.... Then that stack should be about 6 inches higher that the stacks of boxes that were not on pallets around the green "A" stack.... But all the stacks of boxes  look to be the same height ???
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 12, 2022, 03:29:28 PM
If the stack of boxes are the boxes that were on the pallet.... Then that stack should be about 6 inches higher that the stacks of boxes that were not on pallets around the green "A" stack.... But all the stacks of boxes  look to be the same height ???

Check this out for a solution:

Both stacks were on pallets!!

Booom!
#result
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 12, 2022, 03:35:48 PM
Oh...before you ask, here's photographic evidence both stacks were on pallets.

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0D7w8HM/riflehidingplace3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The red arrows subtly indicate the pallet in question.

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 12, 2022, 03:36:13 PM
Jerry posted this image on another thread:

(https://i.postimg.cc/qMZ1BYzF/riflehidingplace1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYW32Bdd)

He seems to have misunderstood that Weitzman was on the floor looking through a pallet.
In the graphic the yellow/orange arrows are Jerry's and are part of the original graphic to which I have made some additions.
Ignore the yellow/orange arrows.

The stack of boxes marked with a green "A" in each pic rests on a pallet [it is the same stack seen from different angles]
To the bottom picture I have added a green arrow to give an indication of Weitzman's LoS as he was on the floor looking through the pallet.
It demonstrates that Weitzman could have seen the barrel portion of the rifle from his viewpoint.

(https://i.postimg.cc/qMZ1BYzF/riflehidingplace1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYW32Bdd)

The middle photo is purportedly the view from the top of the stairs looking south......The row of boxes ran east /west that would have had the rifle on the south side of those boxes....  The official tale says that Lee Harrrrrrvey Ossssswald ( Boooooo Hissss) dashed to the stairs from the east side, (Left in the photo)  and with his ex-ray vision he spotted the gap in the boxes on the back side of that row of boxes, then with his superman grip he held the nine pound rifle in his left hand , by the butt and jammed it in that gap between the boxes.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 12, 2022, 03:40:27 PM
Oh...before you ask, here's photographic evidence both stacks were on pallets.

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0D7w8HM/riflehidingplace3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The red arrows subtly indicate the pallet in question.

The red arrows point to a pallet that was on the west side of the pallet  (B) that Seymour Weitzman shined his flashlight beneath and spotted the rifle on the floor.... 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 12, 2022, 03:50:01 PM
Oh...before you ask, here's photographic evidence both stacks were on pallets.

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0D7w8HM/riflehidingplace3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The red arrows subtly indicate the pallet in question.


(https://i.postimg.cc/g0D7w8HM/riflehidingplace3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This photo beautifully illustrates the impossibility of Weitzman seeing the rifle if it had been sandwiched between the boxes on the left....   Weitzman said that he shined his flashlight beneath the pallet "B" and saw the rifle on the floor.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 12, 2022, 04:36:36 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMZ1BYzF/riflehidingplace1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYW32Bdd)

The middle photo is purportedly the view from the top of the stairs looking south......The row of boxes ran east /west that would have had the rifle on the south side of those boxes....  The official tale says that Lee Harrrrrrvey Ossssswald ( Boooooo Hissss) dashed to the stairs from the east side, (Left in the photo)  and with his ex-ray vision he spotted the gap in the boxes on the back side of that row of boxes, then with his superman grip he held the nine pound rifle in his left hand , by the butt and jammed it in that gap between the boxes.

But, when taken at face value, the evidence regarding who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the shooting excludes Oswald as the shooter.
So Oswald didn't dash across the 6th floor.
He did not stash the MC away
He did not dash downstairs to his rendezvous with Baker and Truly
In this scenario, the MC is no longer required as the murder weapon, it is nothing more than a prop to frame Oswald.
Who was probably in the Domino Room while all this was going down.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 12, 2022, 04:38:29 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0D7w8HM/riflehidingplace3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This photo beautifully illustrates the impossibility of Weitzman seeing the rifle if it had been sandwiched between the boxes on the left....   Weitzman said that he shined his flashlight beneath the pallet "B" and saw the rifle on the floor.

No it doesn't Walt.
It shows that it was perfectly possible to see the barrel of the rifle while looking through the pallet.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 12, 2022, 05:13:57 PM
No it doesn't Walt.
It shows that it was perfectly possible to see the barrel of the rifle while looking through the pallet.

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0D7w8HM/riflehidingplace3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Please explain how Seymour Weitzman could have seen the rifle ( green arrow) when he was east of the pallet in the photo ( above "A" in the photo)  Wouldn't the boxes sitting on the floor to the left (north) of the "B" stack obstructed his view ?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 12, 2022, 05:42:23 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0D7w8HM/riflehidingplace3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Please explain how Seymour Weitzman could have seen the rifle ( green arrow) when he was east of the pallet in the photo ( above "A" in the photo)  Wouldn't the boxes sitting on the floor to the left (north) of the "B" stack obstructed his view ?

No
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 12, 2022, 06:43:14 PM
No

I'm not sure what the three ( sometimes only two ) 2"X4" pieces that the slats of the pallet are nailed to are called.... I'll call them "struts" ....

As is obvious in the photo ( middle photo) the struts are on an east/ west orientation, and the slats run N/ S   So the only direction  Seymour Weitzman could have shined his flashlight was from east to west......And that means he was on the east side (SE )of the place where the official DPD in situ photo shows the rifle jammed between the boxes.  His field of vision to the rifle would have been blocked by the boxes on the flor on the south side of the rifle.

Therefore Weitzman shined his flashlight west ( toward Boone's feet) and he saw the rifle .....

 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 12, 2022, 08:47:24 PM
Follow up ? About the cross member slats; are there any 1x4 crossmember slats on the BOTTOM of the east west running 2x4 frame that would raise the pallet about 1/4th inch up from the floor plane?

If yes then it’s possible to see north to south under the pallet and not be restrained to only a possible 45 degree diagonal LOS form the SE corner towards the NW corner of the pallet.

If no bottom slats then the east west running 2x4s are resting flush to the ground plane and there is no gap to see thru from the North side of the pallet looking south. The LOS available would be restricted to the 45 degre diagonal

If it’s 45 angle case, there is NO LOS possible from SE corner of the pallet thru to the NW corner of the pallet.That  line would be obstructed by the 2 box stack that  green and orange arrows  passing by to the right side which I mistakenly thought were intersecting a box but which Dan says is just some paper hanging over to the left of that 2 box high stack.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 12, 2022, 11:37:13 PM
Follow up ? About the cross member slats; are there any 1x4 crossmember slats on the BOTTOM of the east west running 2x4 frame that would raise the pallet about 1/4th inch up from the floor plane?

If yes then it’s possible to see north to south under the pallet and not be restrained to only a possible 45 degree diagonal LOS form the SE corner towards the NW corner of the pallet.

If no bottom slats then the east west running 2x4s are resting flush to the ground plane and there is no gap to see thru from the North side of the pallet looking south. The LOS available would be restricted to the 45 degre diagonal

If it’s 45 angle case, there is NO LOS possible from SE corner of the pallet thru to the NW corner of the pallet.That  line would be obstructed by the 2 box stack that  green and orange arrows  passing by to the right side which I mistakenly thought were intersecting a box but which Dan says is just some paper hanging over to the left of that 2 box high stack.

are there any 1x4 crossmember slats on the BOTTOM of the east west running 2x4 frame that would raise the pallet about 1/4th inch up from the floor plane?

If yes then it’s possible to see north to south under the pallet and not be restrained to only a possible 45 degree diagonal LOS form the SE corner towards the NW corner of the pallet.

No, that theory is not feasible.... If the pallet was 1/4 inch off the floor it wouldn't make any difference, because nobody could see across the pallet if there were only 1/4 inch gap. Try setting a box on the floor with something ( a couple of Readers Digests on opposite sides of the box. )  holding it 1/4 inch off the floor now try to see something on the floor on the other side of the box.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 13, 2022, 09:38:51 PM
No it doesn't Walt.
It shows that it was perfectly possible to see the barrel of the rifle while looking through the pallet.

Would you please draw a line that you believe would have been Weitzman's line of sight ......From Weitzman's eyes to the place where the gun barrel would have been.....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 13, 2022, 11:29:19 PM
YES Walt! that’s what you and I have been asking Dan to demonstrate and so far his additional green arrows have only demonstrated a possible LOS for Weitzman STANDING at a spot that is at the South WEST corner of the pallet were there is a gap that exists between the that stacked box pallet and another pallet stacked high w/boxes nearly adjacent.

Weitzman LOS would be basically looking thru that gap  from a height of at  3ft from the floor plane to be able to see  OVER the  top of a couple of boxes and down at an angle to see the 5” approx portion of barrel on the floor.

This why I came to the conclusion before that other Weitzman forgot explain that he changed his position from looking UNDER a flat from East side to West side, to a position at rge Southwest corner of the pallet where he must be standing  and looking directly NORTH thru the only available gap between both pallets stacked high with boxes.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 13, 2022, 11:55:35 PM
… OR if the explanation is  NOT due to Weitzman failure to remember he changed his position, and he is absoltuteky certain that when Boone saw the rifle , Weitzman AT THAT INSTANT was   “lookimg UNDER a flat”

THEN there is choice left but to conclude must have been inside the pallet for Weitzman to see it.

However, then how could Boone have seen it, since the east west rilunningb 2x4 on that North edge of the pallet would block Boones LOS.

There must have been small portion of the butt of the rifle that was flush with he WEST side of the pallet that would enable  Boone to have a LOS

I propose “”flush with” the  west side because of the logic that pre planting the rifle , the conspirator would not want it to be inadvertently  discovered in the interim of time (possibly several hours) between rifle planted  and shooter in place firing shots.from his profession an rifle that he escaped with after the fact.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 14, 2022, 01:19:34 AM
… OR if the explanation is  NOT due to Weitzman failure to remember he changed his position, and he is absoltuteky certain that when Boone saw the rifle , Weitzman AT THAT INSTANT was   “lookimg UNDER a flat”

THEN there is choice left but to conclude must have been inside the pallet for Weitzman to see it.

However, then how could Boone have seen it, since the east west rilunningb 2x4 on that North edge of the pallet would block Boones LOS.

There must have been small portion of the butt of the rifle that was flush with he WEST side of the pallet that would enable  Boone to have a LOS



I propose “”flush with” the  west side because of the logic that pre planting the rifle , the conspirator would not want it to be inadvertently  discovered in the interim of time (possibly several hours) between rifle planted  and shooter in place firing shots.from his profession an rifle that he escaped with after the fact.


The problem is:.... The photos that we have are NOT all authentic .... Some were taken later to support the tale that Lee Oswald dashed by and dumped the rifle as he fled.   The place where the rifle was found was only a foot or so from the site where the fake photo created by the DPD was taken....But they were forced to create those fake photos because there was no possible way that Lee Oswald could have hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books and made it to the lunchroom where he was encountered by Baker and Truly at about 12:31.40 ....   

Tom Alyea took a video of Lt Day picking up the rifle by the leather strap and he picked it up from the place it had been hidden after they removed some boxes to allow them access to the rifle....

PS The rifle was not under the pallet ..... Weitzman looked through the pallet and saw the rifle on the floor.

I know that Boone said that the fake in situ photo was the original configuration...but his job and probably his life hung in the balance....   The killers were desperate men, and they didn't hesitate to kill JFK so a nobody like Eugene Boone was no obstacle. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 14, 2022, 01:38:13 AM
… OR if the explanation is  NOT due to Weitzman failure to remember he changed his position, and he is absoltuteky certain that when Boone saw the rifle , Weitzman AT THAT INSTANT was   “lookimg UNDER a flat”

THEN there is choice left but to conclude must have been inside the pallet for Weitzman to see it.

However, then how could Boone have seen it, since the east west rilunningb 2x4 on that North edge of the pallet would block Boones LOS.

There must have been small portion of the butt of the rifle that was flush with he WEST side of the pallet that would enable  Boone to have a LOS

I propose “”flush with” the  west side because of the logic that pre planting the rifle , the conspirator would not want it to be inadvertently  discovered in the interim of time (possibly several hours) between rifle planted  and shooter in place firing shots.from his profession an rifle that he escaped with after the fact.

I propose “”flush with” the  west side because of the logic that pre planting the rifle , the conspirator would not want it to be inadvertently  discovered in the interim of time (possibly several hours) between rifle planted  and shooter in place firing shots.from his profession an rifle that he escaped with after the fact.

 the conspirator would not want it to be inadvertently  discovered in the interim of time (possibly several hours) between rifle planted  and shooter in place firing shots.


Of course your idea is as good as mine, because we don't know when that rifle was hidden beneath the boxes of books....But I'd wager the farm that it was hidden after all of the employees had left for lunch....

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 14, 2022, 05:10:13 PM
But, when taken at face value, the evidence regarding who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the shooting excludes Oswald as the shooter.
So Oswald didn't dash across the 6th floor.
He did not stash the MC away
He did not dash downstairs to his rendezvous with Baker and Truly
In this scenario, the MC is no longer required as the murder weapon, it is nothing more than a prop to frame Oswald.
Who was probably in the Domino Room while all this was going down.

So Oswald didn't dash across the 6th floor.
He did not stash the MC away
He did not dash downstairs to his rendezvous with Baker and Truly
In this scenario, the MC is no longer required as the murder weapon, it is nothing more than a prop to frame Oswald.
Who was probably in the Domino Room while all this was going down.


Yes, You've got it right.... However I don't agree with #2.....He did not stash the MC away

I believe that it's possible that Lee DID hide that carcano BEFORE the shooting.   I believe that Lee thought that he was playing the same role that he had played at Walker's in April.    At Walker's he fired a bullet through the window and then left the rifle beneath a pile of brush where he hoped it would be found  and traced to him, but by the time they had traced the rifle he would have been on his way to Cuba where he would try to learn if all of the nuclear missiles had been removed from the island.  He had calculated that the Dallas papers would print stories about how the Marine turncoat and Commie had attempted to kill General Walker who was very popular in Dallas.

That's basically the same role he was playing on 11/22/63 .....  There would be a couple of spent shells left beneath the window ( mute proof that shots had been fired from that site.) and the carcano would be found hidden along the logical escape route. But by the time they traced the rifle to him he would be out of the country and on his way to Cuba.

The hitch in the plot to use the sucker Oswald was created because officer Marrion Baker  responded to the sound of "gunshots" and encountered Lee In the 2nd floor lunchroom less than two minutes after the FIRST shot was fired.   When the investigators ( and framers ) started trying to reconstruct the imaginary movements of Lee Oswald they discovered that he couldn't possibly have hid that rifle as it was found AFTER the shooting. ( it was too far away from the imaginary flight path and the hiding place was  too well constructed)   Thus  they were compelled to create an in situ site for the rifle that made it possible ( if it wasn't scrutinized too closely) for Lee Harrrrrrvey Ossssswald ( BOOOO, HISSSSS) to have dashed by that site and and hastily dumped the rifle before he scrambled down the stairs to the 2nd floor lunchroom.     
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 19, 2022, 06:17:54 PM
Boone confirms the exact location of the rifle when he found it:

Mr. Ball: Now, 515 contains the arrow which shows the space between boxes where you found the rifle, is that right?
Mr. Boone: Yes.


(https://i.postimg.cc/GmvTCHxN/WCexhibit515.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The arrow points to the location the rifle was filmed by Alyea and photographed by the DPD.
How much more evidence do you need?



CE 515 Has an arrow drawn on it to depict the location of the rifle...Notice how close the rifle would have been to that ceiling support pillar....    Mr Collins  has posted Studebaker's map of the sixth floor and that map depicts the rifle muzzle as being about SEVEN FEET  from that Pillar

(https://i.vgy.me/9KyLvu.jpg)

Notice that Studebaker's map shows the rifle about FIVE FEET from the aisle at the top of the stairs.....Only Plastic Man could have stretched out far enough to place that rifle in the position depicted on Studebaker's map.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 20, 2022, 03:01:01 AM
That photo shows the pallet DOES have 1x4 cross member planks on the underside. which raise the 2x4 east-west running members off the floor by 1/4 “.

However the only way there’s any chance at all for Weitzman to have LOS thru the 1/4”  gap would be to have his cheek literally touching the ground so his eye could be 1/8th” off the ground AND he would have to be located at the SW corner of the pallet looking directly North AND there would have to be some vertical gap between the row of boxes on the North side of the pallet  from which one box was removed to allow the photo of a portion of the rifle.

I’m going to have to take Walt’s word for it that you can’t get your eye close enough to the floor to have a parallel LOS across 4ft of floor under a pallet that’s only 1/4” off the ground.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 20, 2022, 03:45:44 PM
That photo shows the pallet DOES have 1x4 cross member planks on the underside. which raise the 2x4 east-west running members off the floor by 1/4 “.

However the only way there’s any chance at all for Weitzman to have LOS thru the 1/4”  gap would be to have his cheek literally touching the ground so his eye could be 1/8th” off the ground AND he would have to be located at the SW corner of the pallet looking directly North AND there would have to be some vertical gap between the row of boxes on the North side of the pallet  from which one box was removed to allow the photo of a portion of the rifle.

I’m going to have to take Walt’s word for it that you can’t get your eye close enough to the floor to have a parallel LOS across 4ft of floor under a pallet that’s only 1/4” off the ground.

Weitzman sad that he had his face down on the flor and shoned his flashlight beneath the pallet and then he saw the rifle lying on the floor.   

Studebaker's map shows that the rifle was 5 feet west, and 2 feet 4 inches south of the ceiling support pillar ( about seven feet from the pillar to the rifle) and the official DPD in situ photo shows the muzzle of the rifle about 18 inches from the pillar.....

(https://i.vgy.me/9KyLvu.jpg)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 20, 2022, 04:24:42 PM


CE 515 Has an arrow drawn on it to depict the location of the rifle...Notice how close the rifle would have been to that ceiling support pillar....    Mr Collins  has posted Studebaker's map of the sixth floor and that map depicts the rifle muzzle as being about SEVEN FEET  from that Pillar

(https://i.vgy.me/9KyLvu.jpg)

Notice that Studebaker's map shows the rifle about FIVE FEET from the aisle at the top of the stairs.....Only Plastic Man could have stretched out far enough to place that rifle in the position depicted on Studebaker's map.

For Dan Omeara....

Dan, notice where Studebaker placed the rifle on his precision plat of the sixth floor?   The rifle was NOT about 18 inches from the ceiling support pillar as it is shown in the in situ photo ......It actually was about seven feet from the pillar. 

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 20, 2022, 07:29:30 PM
For Dan Omeara....

Dan, notice where Studebaker placed the rifle on his precision plat of the sixth floor?   The rifle was NOT about 18 inches from the ceiling support pillar as it is shown in the in situ photo ......It actually was about seven feet from the pillar.

Hey Walt,
not sure I can see the support pillar in the in situ photo:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Rh3P3r6y/CE517.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 20, 2022, 10:35:05 PM
Hey Walt,
not sure I can see the support pillar in the in situ photo:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Rh3P3r6y/CE517.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Yes, that's right but other photos show the pillar about 18 inches N/E of the muzzle. 
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 20, 2022, 11:48:13 PM
Hey Walt,
not sure I can see the support pillar in the in situ photo:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Rh3P3r6y/CE517.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

You can't see the pillar but if you look at Tom Alyeas photo of Day picking up the rifle you can see the pillar BEHIND Captain Fritz...   That should give a good indication where the rifle was located.  I'll see if I can find a photo that shows the pillar close to the muzzle
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 21, 2022, 02:30:10 AM
If the Box that was removed was laying ON THE FLOOR and was between 2 other boxes then the void space should be a rectangle.

As it appears to me the void space is quadrangle (2sides  are NOT 90 degrees)and the area of this void  is NOT large enough for a box of equal dimensions to the other 2 boxes to have been in that void unless the box adjacent which is not at 90 angle was moved or adjusted after the one box was lifted vertically  up and out.

It’s starting to look to me like this rifle photo area was “arranged” much as the SN was arranged and reconfigured several times.

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 21, 2022, 02:39:02 PM
If the Box that was removed was laying ON THE FLOOR and was between 2 other boxes then the void space should be a rectangle.

As it appears to me the void space is quadrangle (2sides  are NOT 90 degrees)and the area of this void  is NOT large enough for a box of equal dimensions to the other 2 boxes to have been in that void unless the box adjacent which is not at 90 angle was moved or adjusted after the one box was lifted vertically  up and out.

It’s starting to look to me like this rifle photo area was “arranged” much as the SN was arranged and reconfigured several times.

Studebaker made his precision plat of the sixth floor before anybody realized that If the rifle was found well hidden beneath boxes of books  15' 4" south of the north wall and 5 ' from the west wall then that location exonerated Lee Oswald.   

Lee Oswald wouldn't have had enough time after the shooting to hide the rifle in he location and manner that it was found.   After the rifle was found and while waiting for Captain Fritz ( the officer in command at the scene) to arrive in the NW corner of the sixth floor the searchers discussed the find among themselves..... They speculated on the manufacturer of the rifle and marveled at how well the rifle had been hidden. Tom Alyea noted that the site must have been prepared BEFORE the shooting so the assassin could dash through the area and hide the rifle quickly before he fled the sixth floor.   Nobody knew at that time that the accused assassin Lee Oswald would not have had enough time to hide the rifle, 15' 4" from the north wall ( 4 feet south of the E/W aisle )  6 feet south from the top of the stairs) and 5 feet from the west wall.      After DPD chief Curry publicly announced to reporters, that one of his officers (Marrion Baker)  had encountered Lee Harrrrrvey Osssswald ( hiss) calmly drinking a coke in the second floor lunchroom just a couple of minutes after he shot the president, they were stuck .    Because they knew damned well that Lee wouldn't have had enough time to hide that rifle in the place and manner in which it had been found by Weitzman and Boone, so they were forced to place the rifle in a place that made the tale plausible ..... Thus they got the rifle back from the FBI and used it to stage fake photos of the rifle at a place that could have been reached by Lee Oswald as he fled. ( He had not fled...he wasn't even there)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 21, 2022, 05:02:39 PM
Studebaker made his precision plat of the sixth floor before anybody realized that If the rifle was found well hidden beneath boxes of books  15' 4" south of the north wall and 5 ' from the west wall then that location exonerated Lee Oswald.   

Lee Oswald wouldn't have had enough time after the shooting to hide the rifle in he location and manner that it was found.   After the rifle was found and while waiting for Captain Fritz ( the officer in command at the scene) to arrive in the NW corner of the sixth floor the searchers discussed the find among themselves..... They speculated on the manufacturer of the rifle and marveled at how well the rifle had been hidden. Tom Alyea noted that the site must have been prepared BEFORE the shooting so the assassin could dash through the area and hide the rifle quickly before he fled the sixth floor.   Nobody knew at that time that the accused assassin Lee Oswald would not have had enough time to hide the rifle, 15' 4" from the north wall ( 4 feet south of the E/W aisle )  6 feet south from the top of the stairs) and 5 feet from the west wall.      After DPD chief Curry publicly announced to reporters, that one of his officers (Marrion Baker)  had encountered Lee Harrrrrvey Osssswald ( hiss) calmly drinking a coke in the second floor lunchroom just a couple of minutes after he shot the president, they were stuck .    Because they knew damned well that Lee wouldn't have had enough time to hide that rifle in the place and manner in which it had been found by Weitzman and Boone, so they were forced to place the rifle in a place that made the tale plausible ..... Thus they got the rifle back from the FBI and used it to stage fake photos of the rifle at a place that could have been reached by Lee Oswald as he fled. ( He had not fled...he wasn't even there)

The problem with this scenario, which has been pointed out about a dozen times already, is the Tom Alyea footge.
Below is a pic TAKEN FROM TOM ALYEA'S FOOTAGE that shows the rifle in the upright position, exactly where it is photographed by the DPD Crime Lab.
How is it possible Alyea could capture this image if it wasn't where the rifle was originally discovered?

(https://i.imgur.com/b5iLFTm.png)
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 21, 2022, 05:11:24 PM
The problem with this scenario, which has been pointed out about a dozen times already, is the Tom Alyea footge.
Below is a pic TAKEN FROM TOM ALYEA'S FOOTAGE that shows the rifle in the upright position, exactly where it is photographed by the DPD Crime Lab.
How is it possible Alyea could capture this image if it wasn't where the rifle was originally discovered?

(https://i.imgur.com/b5iLFTm.png)

You believe that is Tom Alya's film...... And you can believe what ever supports your ideas.....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 21, 2022, 05:22:56 PM
You believe that is Tom Alya's film...... And you can believe what ever supports your ideas.....

Yes Walt, the still is from Tom Alyea's footage.
Obviously it is something that was shown on the History Channel but here's the footage it was taken from:


It starts off with Fritz entering the rifle enclosure and then we see the shot of the rifle at Fritz's feet.
Do you now agree the pic is from the Alyea footage?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 21, 2022, 05:43:57 PM
Yes Walt, the still is from Tom Alyea's footage.
Obviously it is something that was shown on the History Channel but here's the footage it was taken from:


It starts off with Fritz entering the rifle enclosure and then we see the shot of the rifle at Fritz's feet.
Do you now agree the pic is from the Alyea footage?

At the 0:22 point of the video, the pillar can be seen BEHIND Fritz.....   Detective Day is holding the rifle by the leather strap, and he's standing a couple of feet away from Fritz....  Studebaker's plat shows the rifle pointing east and about seven feet from that pillar.

I believe Tom Alyea's film has been tampered with and shows the rifle standing...  Studebaker depicted the rifle as lying on it's left side, 15' 4" from the north wall....if the rifle had been in the position as seen in the official  in situ photo (CE 514 ) the rifle would have been 14 feet from the north wall and about 11 feet from the west wall.   
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 21, 2022, 05:58:17 PM
At the 0:22 point of the video, the pillar can be seen BEHIND Fritz.....   Detective Day is holding the rifle by the leather strap, and he's standing a couple of feet away from Fritz....  Studebaker's plat shows the rifle pointing east and about seven feet from that pillar.

I believe Tom Alyea's film has been tampered with and shows the rifle standing...  Studebaker depicted the rifle as lying on it's left side, 15' 4" from the north wall....if the rifle had been in the position as seen in the official  in situ photo (CE 514 ) the rifle would have been 14 feet from the north wall and about 11 feet from the west wall.   

So you do now agree the still picture I posted was taken from the original Tom Alyea footage but you now believe the footage was tampered with to show the rifle in the upright position? Is that correct?

At the 0:22 point of the video, the pillar can be seen BEHIND Fritz.....

Of course it can be seen behind Fritz!
This is exactly where we would expect it to be seen if Studebaker's plat is correct.

(https://i.postimg.cc/jjmtkcZz/6thfloordetail.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Red "A" is roughly Alyea's position
Red F is roughly Fritz's position
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 21, 2022, 06:16:41 PM
So you do now agree the still picture I posted was taken from the original Tom Alyea footage but you now believe the footage was tampered with to show the rifle in the upright position? Is that correct?

At the 0:22 point of the video, the pillar can be seen BEHIND Fritz.....

Of course it can be seen behind Fritz!
This is exactly where we would expect it to be seen if Studebaker's plat is correct.

(https://i.postimg.cc/jjmtkcZz/6thfloordetail.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Red "A" is roughly Alyea's position
Red F is roughly Fritz's position

(https://i.postimg.cc/jjmtkcZz/6thfloordetail.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The east side of the stairs is 4 feet from the west wall   ....Draw a line from that east stairway wall to the rifle ....the butt of the rifle is about 4 feet from the east   WEST wall and 15' 4" from the north wall ..... The pillar is 13 feet from the west wall and 13 feet from the north wall.   

The e/w row of boxes that formed the aisle at the top of the stairs   was 13 feet from the north wall.... Which means that Lee would have had to reach across 2 feet four inches and down about 18 inches to insert the rifle into a gap that he could not see  between
the boxes.....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 21, 2022, 06:48:00 PM
So you do now agree the still picture I posted was taken from the original Tom Alyea footage but you now believe the footage was tampered with to show the rifle in the upright position? Is that correct?

At the 0:22 point of the video, the pillar can be seen BEHIND Fritz.....

Of course it can be seen behind Fritz!
This is exactly where we would expect it to be seen if Studebaker's plat is correct.

(https://i.postimg.cc/jjmtkcZz/6thfloordetail.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Red "A" is roughly Alyea's position
Red F is roughly Fritz's position

So you do now agree the still picture I posted was taken from the original Tom Alyea footage but you now believe the footage was tampered with to show the rifle in the upright position? Is that correct?

Yes, But it's no sudden revelation.....  I've always believed the Tom Alyea footage.... Which shows detective Day reaching out to pick up the rifle that is lying on it's side.....   The film from the official propaganda channel ( sometimes called he History channel ) has CE 514 inserted into the Alyea film.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: James Hackerott on September 21, 2022, 06:50:58 PM
This is the Sixth Floor Museum’s glassed-in display showing the area of the hidden rifle. I can’t say how accurate the boxes are placed, and partially obscured in the frame. I will pay more attention to this display at my next chance.
20211122_123431
edit - this photo was taken 12:34pm last November 22 after the Fagin-Frazier chat.
 
(https://i.imgur.com/SjxzCln.jpg)

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 21, 2022, 07:01:59 PM
This is the Sixth Floor Museum’s glassed-in display showing the area of the hidden rifle. I can’t say how accurate the boxes are placed, and partially obscured in the frame. I will pay more attention to this display at my next chance.
20211122_123431

(https://i.imgur.com/SjxzCln.jpg)

Thank you James.... The window would have to be the window in the west wall .....  But  The boxes don't seem to be stacked at all like they were when the rifle was found by Weitzman and Boone.
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 22, 2022, 12:07:09 AM
Thank you James.... The window would have to be the window in the west wall .....  But  The boxes don't seem to be stacked at all like they were when the rifle was found by Weitzman and Boone.

I have to agree Walt, I can't make any sense of the boxes as they are positioned in the museum.
Where was the rifle hidden?
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 22, 2022, 02:32:44 PM
I have to agree Walt, I can't make any sense of the boxes as they are positioned in the museum.
Where was the rifle hidden?

I believe that the dark area at the extreme right of the photo is the stairway wall  going down to the fifth floor....

There is a dark haired woman who is wearing a COVID mask facing east at the left side  ( east side) of the photo ....

I wonder why they didn't place the boxes as they were when Weitzman and Boone found the rifle ????
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 22, 2022, 04:47:15 PM
So you do now agree the still picture I posted was taken from the original Tom Alyea footage but you now believe the footage was tampered with to show the rifle in the upright position? Is that correct?

At the 0:22 point of the video, the pillar can be seen BEHIND Fritz.....

Of course it can be seen behind Fritz!
This is exactly where we would expect it to be seen if Studebaker's plat is correct.

(https://i.postimg.cc/jjmtkcZz/6thfloordetail.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Red "A" is roughly Alyea's position
Red F is roughly Fritz's position



Look at CE 515   (Page 39 of this thread)  ......And try to correlate this Studebaker plat with the spot where the arrow indicates the rifle was found.   

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 22, 2022, 07:18:38 PM
Here are some consecutive frames from that animation:


(https://i.vgy.me/BWncNH.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/XPWRiE.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/bhkm4b.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/O10MTc.jpg)



These frames show the fully loaded clip being pushed down and locked in place. There are six (count them) cartridges in the clip and they are all below the bottom of the receiver chamber and the level of the bottom of the bolt. This is also shown in blabbermouth's video. Simply place a seventh cartridge in the receiver chamber and slide the bolt forward. The seventh cartridge will be pushed into the firing chamber (in lieu of the top cartridge in the clip). This is also what Frazier testified.

The dented shell was dented when it was empty and used as the bottom shell in the clip.....
Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: James Hackerott on September 22, 2022, 08:06:31 PM
I believe that the dark area at the extreme right of the photo is the stairway wall  going down to the fifth floor....

There is a dark haired woman who is wearing a COVID mask facing east at the left side  ( east side) of the photo ....

I wonder why they didn't place the boxes as they were when Weitzman and Boone found the rifle ????
Here is link to Google Drive with a few more images from that series. These are big files – just letting you know.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CAEiRlZQMxelunN3koMA0q2LRR8lo7lS?usp=sharing

Title: Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 26, 2022, 07:58:39 PM
Here is link to Google Drive with a few more images from that series. These are big files – just letting you know.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CAEiRlZQMxelunN3koMA0q2LRR8lo7lS?usp=sharing

Thanks, James.... I can't make any sense of the display....    I don't believe it's  even close to what the area looked like at 1:00pm that day.