Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie

[Alan Ford]

Still on this scenario

Mr Oswald, in custody, gives a true account of his movements:

-broke for lunch
-second-floor lunchroom to buy a coke
-down to one to eat lunch
-went outside to watch P. Parade
-immediately after hearing shots: out with Bill Shelley in front
-saw all the excitement (on Elm St., in railroad yard)
-returned to building by west door with Bill Shelley
-some time later, based on remarks made by Bill Shelley, decided to leave
-stopped at front door by officer, but let pass after being vouched for by Mr Truly

These honest claims will be viciously distorted from one interrogation report to the next, with all sorts of nonsense being put in Mr Oswald's mouth.

Thus---------for example--------the time outside with Mr Shelley immediately following the shooting (concrete 'island' + railroad yards) will become stood around outside with Bill Shelley for five or ten minutes AFTER encounter with cop & Mr Truly in lunchroom, followed by eating lunch on one, and then going outside for the first time

----------Mr Shelley had the misfortune to have spent quality time with the now-accused immediately after the assassination
----------Mr Lovelady had the misfortune to have the wrong face in the wrong place at the wrong time

Hence these two men's------otherwise inexplicable and seemingly unnecessary-------lies.

[Dan O'meara]

This is, by far, the loneliest thread I've ever seen...which is a pity, as you have raised a massively important issue.
Lovelady's admission that he didn't enter the TSBD building for 20 - 25 minutes (confirmed by the Martin and Hughes films), reveals a series of lies in which Lovelady and Shelley were complicit.
They lie from the very outset.
Why would two, honest working men just going about their daily business lie to the authorities from the get-go about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination?
This is the murder of the most powerful man on the planet at the time and these two normal working men, rather than simply report what they did after the shooting, lie relentlessly.
But what is it, exactly, they are lying about?

I'm glad to see you've abandoned your Oswald-is-Prayer-Man bullsh$t, and not before time.

Note in the Darnell pic you've posted of Gloria talking to Lovelady on the steps, there is a man dressed exactly the same as Shelley stood at the bottom of the steps - precisely where Frazier places him.
It is surely after this brief conversation with Calvary that both men head for the west door (something they both conveniently forget to mention in their affidavits).
In their WC hearings both men get the chance to set the record straight. Instead, they both introduce the lie of seeing Baker and Truly approaching the TSBD building steps at least 3 minutes after the shooting (both men do this). Why are they both telling this lie?
Is it to do with how quickly they got to the west door? What did Lovelady do if he didn't go inside the building?
Both men lie in their WC testimonies about how they both entered the west door at the same time - why?
What's happening at the west door?

[Alan Ford]

This is, by far, the loneliest thread I've ever seen...which is a pity, as you have raised a massively important issue.
Lovelady's admission that he didn't enter the TSBD building for 20 - 25 minutes (confirmed by the Martin and Hughes films), reveals a series of lies in which Lovelady and Shelley were complicit.
They lie from the very outset.
Why would two, honest working men just going about their daily business lie to the authorities from the get-go about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination?
This is the murder of the most powerful man on the planet at the time and these two normal working men, rather than simply report what they did after the shooting, lie relentlessly.
But what is it, exactly, they are lying about?

Exactly! 

I'm glad to see you've abandoned your Oswald-is-Prayer-Man bullsh$t, and not before time.

I have NOT abandoned LHO=PM, Mr O'Meara. It is still--------pending release of clearer Darnell frames-------a live theory.

What I have been outlining in this thread is an alternative scenario (I always use that word when making a suggestion rather than an emphatic claim)

Note in the Darnell pic you've posted of Gloria talking to Lovelady on the steps, there is a man dressed exactly the same as Shelley stood at the bottom of the steps - precisely where Frazier places him.

Do you mean the broad man out on the sidewalk who walks over to the woman?

[Dan O'meara]

In the light of Lovelady's admission that he didn't go inside the TSBD building for 20 - 25 minutes after the assassination, it is informative to examine his WC testimony to get an idea of how brazen his lies are. It must also be noted that Lovelady's lies are not in isolation, he is coordinating his lies with Bill Shelley and very often, during the testimonies of both men, they use the plural "us" and "we", even when asked questions specifically about their own experience.
Lovelady explains that, at the time of the assassination he was stood on the front steps with Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton. He hears the shots...:

"I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot."

This statement gives the impression Gloria arrived on the scene very quickly. We see this moment in Darnell and it occurs seconds after the shooting.
After Gloria tells him JFK was shot...

"...we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building."

He couldn't be more clear - both men run towards "that little. old island" and down the Elm Street extension, towards the railroad tracks and then back into the TSBD building by the west door. This is an out-and-out lie being told to the WC. It's quite unbelievable.
Shelley reiterates this lie in his own WC testimony:

Mr. Ball: Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

...

Mr. Ball: What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY: We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. Ball: At the west end?
Mr. Shelley: Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

Once again, the same story, with the same lie - after Gloria, both men go out to "that little, old island", down the Elm Street extension and enter the TSBD building through the west door. Shelley continues this lie once inside the building:

Mr. Ball: When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. Shelley: I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. Ball: What was he doing?
Mr. Shelley: He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. Ball: Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Who else did you see?
Mr. Shelley: That's all we saw immediately.

"That's all we saw immediately". It's impressive that Shelley feels he can talk for Lovelady as to what he saw.

Why would these two men lie to the WC on this matter, and make no mistake -the are lying.
Why would they both then lie about how long it took for Baker and Truly to approach the steps - at least three minutes. This lie could easily be exposed by Ball ( he interviews both men), but he let's it go.

I believe the point of the lies is to disguise:

a) That they went to the west door at all (their affidavits)
b) That they went to the west door immediately. (the addition of at least 3 minutes)

Once it is established both men are lying and that both men are telling the same lies, it is imperative to get to the bottom of it. It is a fascinating fact that, other than Danny Arce, every single man who was on the 6th floor that morning lies to the authorities in their various statements and testimonies:

Shelley
Lovelady
Dougherty
Williams
Norman

[Dan O'meara]

Exactly! 

I have NOT abandoned LHO=PM, Mr O'Meara. It is still--------pending release of clearer Darnell frames-------a live theory.

What I have been outlining in this thread is an alternative scenario (I always use that word when making a suggestion rather than an emphatic claim)

Do you mean the broad man out on the sidewalk who walks over to the woman?

"Do you mean the broad man out on the sidewalk who walks over to the woman?"

No, I mean the man dressed exactly the same as Bill Shelly moving towards the bottom of the steps, just behind Gloria Calvary, almost as though he was following her.

[Alan Ford]

"Do you mean the broad man out on the sidewalk who walks over to the woman?"

No, I mean the man dressed exactly the same as Bill Shelly moving towards the bottom of the steps

But that's the man I'm talking about

, just behind Gloria Calvary, almost as though he was following her.

More as though he is (re-?)joining a different woman-------note his stop and turn at the end

[Alan Ford]

In the light of Lovelady's admission that he didn't go inside the TSBD building for 20 - 25 minutes after the assassination, it is informative to examine his WC testimony to get an idea of how brazen his lies are. It must also be noted that Lovelady's lies are not in isolation, he is coordinating his lies with Bill Shelley and very often, during the testimonies of both men, they use the plural "us" and "we", even when asked questions specifically about their own experience.
Lovelady explains that, at the time of the assassination he was stood on the front steps with Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton. He hears the shots...:

"I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot."

This statement gives the impression Gloria arrived on the scene very quickly. We see this moment in Darnell and it occurs seconds after the shooting.
After Gloria tells him JFK was shot...

"...we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building."

He couldn't be more clear - both men run towards "that little. old island" and down the Elm Street extension, towards the railroad tracks and then back into the TSBD building by the west door. This is an out-and-out lie being told to the WC. It's quite unbelievable.
Shelley reiterates this lie in his own WC testimony:

Mr. Ball: Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

...

Mr. Ball: What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY: We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. Ball: At the west end?
Mr. Shelley: Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

Once again, the same story, with the same lie - after Gloria, both men go out to "that little, old island", down the Elm Street extension and enter the TSBD building through the west door. Shelley continues this lie once inside the building:

Mr. Ball: When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. Shelley: I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. Ball: What was he doing?
Mr. Shelley: He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. Ball: Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Who else did you see?
Mr. Shelley: That's all we saw immediately.

"That's all we saw immediately". It's impressive that Shelley feels he can talk for Lovelady as to what he saw.

Why would these two men lie to the WC on this matter, and make no mistake -the are lying.
Why would they both then lie about how long it took for Baker and Truly to approach the steps - at least three minutes. This lie could easily be exposed by Ball ( he interviews both men), but he let's it go.

Good analysis

I believe the point of the lies is to disguise:

a) That they went to the west door at all (their affidavits)
b) That they went to the west door immediately. (the addition of at least 3 minutes)

Here's where we differ: I suggest the point of the lies is that Mr Lovelady did not accompany Mr Shelley at all. He did not go out with Bill Shelley in front but stayed on the steps.