The Sign of a Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory

[Martin Weidmann]

No, I didn’t. I had no idea that the CIA paid its agents paid such a pittance. Oswald couldn’t even support his family.

Well, the “Stolen 2020 Election” is the most recent major Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory that I have heard about in the last few years. And millions seem to believe it. So, I think it is natural that I should refer to it when I refer to other such conspiracy theories, like the JFK assassination conspiracy theory.

And I noticed that you, like the other CTers dodge my question. What evidence was faked. And provide as estimate in the number involved in the conspiracy.

Questions:

1. Where did all that money the CIA paid Oswald over the years end up? Why couldn’t it have been used for his wife and daughters. Or, if nothing else, to support his mother before 1963?

If Oswald was working for free, can you name another American CIA agent who worked for free? Or was Oswald the only one?

2. Do you believe the JFK assassination was a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy? Or a Small-Secret-Enduring conspiracy?

3. What evidence was faked by the conspirators?

The autopsy photographs? Autopsy X-rays? The Autopsy report? CE-399? The bullet fragments? The Zapruder film? The other Dealey Plaza films? The Dealey Plaza photographs? The General Walker evidence? The Oswald purchasing a rifle evidence?

4. How many people, do you estimate would be needed to pull off the assassination and the fake evidence?

Let me ask you three questions, without any predetermination about what the answer would have to be to be acceptable (as you usually do);


And provide as estimate in the number involved in the conspiracy.

Why don't you simply explain what you understand to be "the conspiracy"?

Are we talking about the planning and execution of the murder or about what happened after that or both?


Oswald couldn’t even support his family.

Do you think you know all there is to know about Oswald?


What evidence was faked by the conspirators?

What exactly do you mean by evidence that was faked?

Perhaps this a black or white issue for you, but do you - for example - think the Klein's order form for the rifle needs to be fake for Oswald not have ordered the rifle for himself?

I'm asking these questions for the purpose of clarification, because without the answers it's going to be difficult for me to enter into a discussion with you about this subject.

[Richard Smith]

I find your unfamiliarity with the witness testimony on such a pivotal question surprising.
The reason it is a pivotal question is that the witness testimony makes it abundantly clear Williams is on the 6th floor at the same time as the assassin.
Obviously you are uncomfortable with this.
Unlike you, I have a very good idea how long he was eating lunch there and I will lay out the testimonial evidence as I see it.

After his initial fabrication to the DPD (that he travelled up to the 5th floor with Norman and Jarman), BRW is interviewed by the FBI the next day. He concedes that he went up to the 6th floor alone, that he saw no-one there and went down to the 5th floor. No mention of eating his lunch. He is only up there for 3 minutes.

On January 14th, agents Carter and Griffin report that BRW said he went down to the 5th floor at 12:05 pm

During his WC testimony he is asked how long he stayed on the 6th floor. He replies:
"I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes."

Later in the same testimony he is asked what time he saw Norman and Jarman. He replies:
"It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12."

He is then asked to clarify what time, approximately, he left the 6th floor. He replies:
"Approximately 12:20, maybe."

As you point out, Williams gives various estimations for his time on the 6th floor. You would like to believe it's just a muddled memory but there is a distinct pattern to his estimates - the more he is questioned, the longer he is up there.
3 minutes, 5, 10, 12, 15, and 20 minutes.
20 minutes!
At first he tries to distance himself from the 6th floor completely, then he tries to minimise the time he is up there.

In order to clarify how long Williams was up there we must turn to the evidence given by the two men he meets up with on the 5th floor - Norman and Jarman.
Both men make their way out to the front of the TSBD. When asked how long he was out front, Norman gives a very specific timestamp. He states that they stayed out front until they heard the motorcade was on Main Street. According to the DPD dispatch tapes the motorcade is approaching Main Street at 12:22 pm. We can say with confidence Norman and Jarman are still stood outside the TSBD at 12:22 pm.
When Jarman is asked the same question he replies:
"Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25."
This corroborates Norman's timestamp which removes the "muddled memory" argument.
When asked what time he arrived on the 6th floor Jarman replies:
"That was about 12:25 or 12:28."

At 12:22 pm Norman and Jarman are stood outside the front of the TSBD.
Williams is up on the 6th floor having his lunch.
Seven minutes before this, at 12:15 pm, Arnold Rowland reports seeing a black male in the SN window at a time when Williams is having his lunch on the 6th floor. Rowland also reports seeing a white male carrying a high powered, scoped rifle on the same floor at the same time.

According to all this testimonial evidence it is safe to say Williams is on the 6th floor at the same time as the assassin.
Do you have any credible counter-evidence?
Do you disagree with this assessment of the testimonial evidence?

?? But he wasn't "reluctant" to lie to the DPD and FBI??
Are you joking? You think lying to law enforcement agencies investigating the assassination of the president is somehow plausible for a black man in the 1960's South?

For the third time - he doesn't leave information out of his initial DPD statement, it isn't an omission or forgetfulness.
For the third time - Williams gives details of something that didn't happen. He lies. There is no other word for it.
He states he went up to the 5th floor with Jarman and Norman. He embellishes on this lie when he says that shortly after they reached the 5th floor the motorcade arrived.
None of this is true. He's made it up. He's created a false narrative. He has deliberately lied.

Your unreasonableness over this point is noted. I've no doubt you will keep on repeating the same point.

Again, this truly bizarre suggestion.
If he saw nothing why would he lie?
Think about it.

Utterly meaningless.

Your post is really weak and I don't think you should be taking on an issue like this if you are as unfamiliar with the witness testimony as you appear to be (although I strongly suspect you are more than familiar with the relevant evidence).
If you have a different (reasonable) interpretation of the evidence I've presented let's hear it.
Your last recourse is to simply classify me as one of the many nut-jobs plying their trade on this forum and walk away from this discussion. I advise this course of action.

You have suggested that numerous random citizens were lying about material facts in the assassination of the President and some even had "foreknowledge" of the event in the absence of any credible evidence whatsoever.  None. You have no idea how long BRW was on the 6th floor.  None.  He didn't know himself as he gave varying estimates.  You just pick a solution that fits your desired interpretation.  Which itself makes no sense.  Why don't you make a point instead of all this pedantic nitpicking?  So what if BRW was on the 6th floor at the same time as the "assassin"?  He didn't see anything.  What now?  You haven't demonstrated that he lied about anything or created any fake narrative.  You have just substituted your own subjective interpretation of events to reach that conclusion while dismissing perfectly reasonable alternative conclusions.   Just saying over and over that he lied doesn't make it so.

[John Iacoletti]

You have suggested that numerous random citizens were lying about material facts in the assassination of the President and some even had "foreknowledge" of the event in the absence of any credible evidence whatsoever.  None. You have no idea how long BRW was on the 6th floor.  None.  He didn't know himself as he gave varying estimates.  You just pick a solution that fits your desired interpretation.

That's rich coming from the guy who has presented no credible evidence for his own desired interpretations.

[Richard Smith]

No, I didn’t. I had no idea that the CIA paid its agents paid such a pittance. Oswald couldn’t even support his family.

Well, the “Stolen 2020 Election” is the most recent major Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory that I have heard about in the last few years. And millions seem to believe it. So, I think it is natural that I should refer to it when I refer to other such conspiracy theories, like the JFK assassination conspiracy theory.

How about Russian "collusion" in which the President of the United was alleged to have conspired with Putin to win the 2016 election?  That one was a real lulu.  That was a baseless "stolen election" conspiracy claim of the most epic proportions in American history.  Gore alleged the 2000 election was stolen.  JFK was alleged to have stolen the 1960 election.  Stolen elections are a common political mantra.

[Robert Reeves]

Do you guys not get it? all these conspiracies are uniquely American, by that I mean, they are so steadfastly lingering and and profoundly unbelievable [to some] because you guys claim to stand for so much. But yet, your nation is just as crooked, thoroughly rotten -- as any nation you've been projecting upon for nearly the last century.

It's very hilarious watching Joe and Richard Smith pick and choose their conspiracy theories to line up behind. We are witnessing the extremely well predicted collapse of American society. I've been listening to JFK assassination researcher Mae Brussell's old recordings, she was just so right -- she predicted all this chaos USA is facing. No nation can survive whilst covering up and denying the truth. JFK, RFK, MLK, all of them were assassinated by orders of the same people that furthered the Vietnam until no more money could be sucked from war. Not until 9/11 happened, and they got another shot at bleeding the tax payers dry to fund the invasions that made trillions for the corporate and military Leviathan.


@Joe Elliot, are you really saying you don't know how the CIA gets around finances for its employees? I mean it's hardly a secret. Every single transaction has deniability built into it. I seem to remember James B Wilcott, the CIA accountant at Atsugi airbase testifying the agent would be assigned names/cryptonyms ... even double cryptonyms -- allegedly for Oswald. Then after 3 months, or maybe 6 months, the payments made through the CIA accounts to agents are audited and destroyed. Nothing remains open for investigation, just in case everything went tits up. It isn't so hard to imagine why we know so little about Oswald's finances. I mean, Biden is refusing RIGHT NOW in 2021 to release all the files. Get a clue

[Joe Elliott]

Let me ask you three questions, without any predetermination about what the answer would have to be to be acceptable (as you usually do);

And provide as estimate in the number involved in the conspiracy.

Why don't you simply explain what you understand to be "the conspiracy"?

Are we talking about the planning and execution of the murder or about what happened after that or both?

Both, of course. Someone who planned or participated in the assassination, of course, should be counted. Someone who made or planted CE-399 should be counted. Someone who helped modify the Zapruder film should be counted.

Oswald couldn’t even support his family.

Do you think you know all there is to know about Oswald?

It is clear his family were economically poor. Much poorer than I would expect of a CIA agent.

What evidence was faked by the conspirators?

What exactly do you mean by evidence that was faked?

Like if you think CE-399 was planted. Like if you think the Zapruder film was faked. Like you think the autopsy report was modified to support only shots from the back.

Perhaps this a black or white issue for you, but do you - for example - think the Klein's order form for the rifle needs to be fake for Oswald not have ordered the rifle for himself?

I'm asking these questions for the purpose of clarification, because without the answers it's going to be difficult for me to enter into a discussion with you about this subject.

If Oswald did not order the rifle than someone faked the evidence. Either the order form was forged or it is the order form used to order the rifle, but the person who actually ordered the rifle gave fake information to make it appear that it came from Oswald.

I think my intent is quite clear. You’re just pretending, perhaps even to yourself, that you don’t understand.


You’re just giving me the same kind of run-around a defender of the “Fake 2020 Election” would be giving me.

“What do I mean “fake votes”? Real votes summitted by the same person multiple times? Or not real votes, they just modified the vote totals”.

I could not get any straight answers from a defender of the “Fake 2020 Election” conspiracy theory, correct?


My intent is to find out basic information. Do you believe the JFK assassination was a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy or a small one? If a small one, what were the various “projects” done by the conspiracy, including fake evidence? And how many people were involved in each “project”?

By answering these questions, you would make it clear if you believe in a large or a small conspiracy.

[Joe Elliott]

Do you guys not get it? all these conspiracies are uniquely American, by that I mean, they are so steadfastly lingering and and profoundly unbelievable [to some] because you guys claim to stand for so much. But yet, your nation is just as crooked, thoroughly rotten -- as any nation you've been projecting upon for nearly the last century.

It's very hilarious watching Joe and Richard Smith pick and choose their conspiracy theories to line up behind. We are witnessing the extremely well predicted collapse of American society. I've been listening to JFK assassination researcher Mae Brussell's old recordings, she was just so right -- she predicted all this chaos USA is facing. No nation can survive whilst covering up and denying the truth. JFK, RFK, MLK, all of them were assassinated by orders of the same people that furthered the Vietnam until no more money could be sucked from war. Not until 9/11 happened, and they got another shot at bleeding the tax payers dry to fund the invasions that made trillions for the corporate and military Leviathan.


@Joe Elliot, are you really saying you don't know how the CIA gets around finances for its employees? I mean it's hardly a secret. Every single transaction has deniability built into it. I seem to remember James B Wilcott, the CIA accountant at Atsugi airbase testifying the agent would be assigned names/cryptonyms ... even double cryptonyms -- allegedly for Oswald. Then after 3 months, or maybe 6 months, the payments made through the CIA accounts to agents are audited and destroyed. Nothing remains open for investigation, just in case everything went tits up. It isn't so hard to imagine why we know so little about Oswald's finances. I mean, Biden is refusing RIGHT NOW in 2021 to release all the files. Get a clue

But what is the evidence for this in the case of Oswald. If it was true, wouldn’t we expect:

* Oswald owning a house that he shouldn’t have been able to afford. Or renting a place that he shouldn’t have been able to afford. Providing health care for family that he shouldn’t have been able to afford.

If any of this is true, what was Oswald spending the money on?

It would appear that this alleged income for Oswald was completely imaginary. Do you agree or disagree with this?