The Sign of a Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory

[Joe Elliott]

Joe Elliott do you believe E Howard Hunt when he says there was a plot to kill JFK and then proceeds to name several colleagues of his from CIA departments that specialized in clandestine operations to remove 'foreign' leaders via force as the conspirators. Also, incriminating himself.

Just think about it! After everything we know about Hunt ... was he really making it up?

Do I believe E. Howard Hunt? No. I would not believe anything he had to say.

I think E. Howard Hunt was falsely implicating President Lyndon Johnson in the assassination because he was bitter about Johnson’s support of Civil Rights legislation. If E. Howard Hunt was still alive today I would have no doubt that he would be a big supporter of Donald Trump.

[Joe Elliott]

Joe,

You seem to assume that everybody you think would have needed to be involved in a conspiracy was completely informed about everything and an active and willing participant. I think your assumption is wrong.

For a conspiracy to work, all that was required is that the actual conspirators had control of the evidence and the investigation. Prior to the assassination all they needed was a small group of people to set up Oswald (which really wasn't so difficult) and a small team to carry out the actual assassination. I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of the people somehow involved in the case, were so on a need to know basis and/or acting on orders, without actually knowing what was really going on and what the big picture really was.

The massive number of anomalies in the physical evidence clearly suggests that the evidence was manipulated and adapted to the narrative we know today.

First, I would like to point out that this exact defense could be used for any Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory:

“Only a few of the heads of Dominion Voting Systems were aware of this conspiracy. The computer programmers who made it happen were just following instructions. So, when told that if Trump won Arizona, they should write code that would add enough votes to the Biden totals to allow Biden to win Arizona, and so they do so. But they did not realize that this was done to allow Biden to win the election regardless of who won the election. They didn’t realize that similar instructions were given to others who were writing the computer code for other states. So, only a few really had a big picture of what was going on.”

Similarly:

“Only a few at the top of the Dallas Police Department knew what was going on. One was ordered to place a bullet on a stretcher. Another was ordered to plant fake documents to make it appear that Oswald ordered a rifle. Another was ordered to put a gun in Oswald’s hand while he was arrested. But none of them knew that this was done to frame Oswald. None of them really knew the big picture.

Secondly, you have not made an:

* Estimate of the number who helped the conspiracy.
* Nor, a number who were not but followed orders as if they were involved in the conspiracy.
* And how did the conspirators know ahead of time that so many others who were not part of the conspiracy would help them out, as if they were involved.
* Nor, a list of evidence that was modified or faked, to explain all the “anomalies”.

Anyone who supports a conspiracy theory, needs to lay out this information, so one can judge if the conspiracy theory is a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy, or not. As basically CTers, or 99% of them, do not do so. Failure to do so should convince a rational skeptical thinker to conclude that this is a Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory and that this theory can be dismissed for that reason alone, the same reason rational skeptics have dismissed other conspiracy theories over the centuries like:

* Elders of Zion conspiracy theory.
* Illuminati conspiracy theory.
* Freemason conspiracy theory.

The same rational reasoning that worked two centuries ago still works today.

Thirdly, JFK CTers could argue, it doesn’t matter if Trump is elected (or selected by various Secretary of State for Georgia, etc.) because the same “Deep State” put in place by the JFK assassination will still be in place. I would hold that this is a dangerous belief.

[Joe Elliott]

The model I'm working has 4 people with "on the ground" foreknowledge of what was going to happen that day - Shelley, Truly, Fritz and the shooter, Dougherty.
Oswald definitely knew something serious was going to happen that day but as to the full extent, I can't say. It's enough to say that when he left the TSBD after the assassination, he was a man on the run.
The impetus for the assassination would've taken place further up the TSBD chain, probably Byrd and associates (yet to look into this side of things but it seems the only way to go)
Elements of the various intelligence agencies may have known something was coming but just allowed it to happen then followed the Oswald-Did-It order that came from the top.

The biggest stumbling block to this way of looking at things - and at the moment it looks insurmountable - is the organisation of the motorcade route.
I don't have the first clue how something like this could've possibly taken place through Byrd and his Oil buddies.

A conspiracy as small as this is clearly not what 99% of CTers have envisioned.

Also, you sometimes list four names, sometimes seven.

You also allude to oil companies but do not provide an estimate of the number involved in the conspiracy.

And did this “small” conspiracy (just the employees of the TSBD, oh, and the oil industry) fake the paperwork linking the rifle to Oswald? Did they fake the autopsy? Did they fake the backyard photographs?

Exactly what evidence was tampered with by the conspiracy?

[Dan O'meara]

A conspiracy as small as this is clearly not what 99% of CTers have envisioned.

Also, you sometimes list four names, sometimes seven.

You also allude to oil companies but do not provide an estimate of the number involved in the conspiracy.

And did this “small” conspiracy (just the employees of the TSBD, oh, and the oil industry) fake the paperwork linking the rifle to Oswald? Did they fake the autopsy? Did they fake the backyard photographs?

Exactly what evidence was tampered with by the conspiracy?

"A conspiracy as small as this is clearly not what 99% of CTers have envisioned."

This thread is asking an important question.
There can be no doubt that the vast majority of CTers are weak minded lunatics who have no interest in actually finding out what was going with the JFK case. They are simply propping up their own fragile egos at the expense of the truth. It's disgusting really and embarrassing that I am lumped in with them by default.
Because witness evidence is contradictory by nature and the investigation was unbelievably incompetent, not to mention corrupt, these people can come up with any outlandish theory they want, no matter how large it gets.

"Also, you sometimes list four names, sometimes seven."

The list of four - Truly, Shelley, Fritz and Dougherty - are those who had foreknowledge of events that day.
The list of seven - Shelley, Lovelady, Williams, Norman, Jarman, Dougherty, Givens - are those who clearly lied to the investigating authorities. Williams, Norman and Jarman did not lie because they were part of the conspiracy they lied because Williams saw something he shouldn't have seen. Williams tried to distance himself from it and dragged Norman and Jarman into his lie as back up.

"You also allude to oil companies but do not provide an estimate of the number involved in the conspiracy."

I've made no mention of oil companies.

"And did this “small” conspiracy (just the employees of the TSBD, oh, and the oil industry) fake the paperwork linking the rifle to Oswald? Did they fake the autopsy? Did they fake the backyard photographs?"

None of this was faked.
I don't believe any evidence was faked.
Some important evidence was destroyed/lost such as BRW's lunch remains including the soda bottle.
Forrest Sorrels taking Oswald's shirt out to Bledsoe so she could make notes seems a weird use of evidence.
But I don't believe anything was faked.
I'm working on a "Patsy" model, so Oswald can do all the things he is said to have done - bought a rifle and revolver, got Marina to take photos etc.

"Exactly what evidence was tampered with by the conspiracy?"

Obviously, I've given the example of the lunch remains and Bledsoe.
There are other small examples of tampering but not on some kind of industrial scale.
You must remember, the order, from the very top, that the investigation into the murder was to focus solely on Oswald, really happened. This led to a skewing of the investigation. Which in turn led to moments of corruption. Not as part of a conscious conspiracy put as part of "following orders."

[Bill Chapman]

Your attempt to comfort yourself with lame absurdity will not ever disguise the depth of depravity that runs right through USA's corruption spewing century of dominance. As if the two sickest individuals in American politics/security service (you jokingly use to mock the JFK assassination) are even remotely considered above such depraved abuses of power that were needed to successfully maintain the wicked conspiratorial lies to deprive the people of the truth.

You seriously live in the delusion that Hoover and LBJ didn't find it advantageous to see the back of JFK? Sad bastard.

jokingly use to mock the JFK assassination
_Nah, to mock oswald arse kissers

Meantime, back here on Planet Earth:

[Robert Reeves]

Do I believe E. Howard Hunt? No. I would not believe anything he had to say.

I think E. Howard Hunt was falsely implicating President Lyndon Johnson in the assassination because he was bitter about Johnson’s support of Civil Rights legislation. If E. Howard Hunt was still alive today I would have no doubt that he would be a big supporter of Donald Trump.

That's quite fascinating. You manage to crowbar Trump into almost every scenario, even to character assassinate someone that is long dead. This same person you vilify as being of not good character was an ex-Assassin for Uncle Sam, a known very good sniper, in fact. Someone that took those skills at killing people into the CIA's intelligence agency machinations. Hunt was so good he was heavily involved with the assassination/overthrow attempts on Castro. And one of the men E Howard Hunt named (in plotting the assassination of JFK) was Bill Harvey - the CIA's notorious assassination expert. Someone whose intelligence background brought him into contact with a Mr Lee Harvey Oswald (Harvey's involvement with the false defector plan). What are the chances?

You know Oswald was CIA.

Keep dreaming it didn't happen.   

[Joe Elliott]

You know Oswald was CIA.

No, I didn’t. I had no idea that the CIA paid its agents paid such a pittance. Oswald couldn’t even support his family.

That's quite fascinating. You manage to crowbar Trump into almost every scenario, even to character assassinate someone that is long dead. This same person you vilify as being of not good character was an ex-Assassin for Uncle Sam, a known very good sniper, in fact. Someone that took those skills at killing people into the CIA's intelligence agency machinations. Hunt was so good he was heavily involved with the assassination/overthrow attempts on Castro. And one of the men E Howard Hunt named (in plotting the assassination of JFK) was Bill Harvey - the CIA's notorious assassination expert. Someone whose intelligence background brought him into contact with a Mr Lee Harvey Oswald (Harvey's involvement with the false defector plan). What are the chances?

Well, the “Stolen 2020 Election” is the most recent major Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory that I have heard about in the last few years. And millions seem to believe it. So, I think it is natural that I should refer to it when I refer to other such conspiracy theories, like the JFK assassination conspiracy theory.

And I noticed that you, like the other CTers dodge my question. What evidence was faked. And provide as estimate in the number involved in the conspiracy.

Questions:

1. Where did all that money the CIA paid Oswald over the years end up? Why couldn’t it have been used for his wife and daughters. Or, if nothing else, to support his mother before 1963?

If Oswald was working for free, can you name another American CIA agent who worked for free? Or was Oswald the only one?

2. Do you believe the JFK assassination was a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy? Or a Small-Secret-Enduring conspiracy?

3. What evidence was faked by the conspirators?

The autopsy photographs? Autopsy X-rays? The Autopsy report? CE-399? The bullet fragments? The Zapruder film? The other Dealey Plaza films? The Dealey Plaza photographs? The General Walker evidence? The Oswald purchasing a rifle evidence?

4. How many people, do you estimate would be needed to pull off the assassination and the fake evidence?