The lapel flip -- what did i miss?

[Jack Nessan]

Show us where he said there were only two shots.  He always said he heard only two shots. He has said many times that he accepts that there were three shots. He has always maintained that JFK reacted to the first shot by hunching forward and to the left. 

Re: standing on running board at z306. We do not have a visual record of when Hill stepped off the running board.  We know it was after Altgens 6 at z254-255.  It is difficult to estimate how long it took for him to get along-side the front of the QM when we first see him in the Nix film.  He does not reach the rear hand-hold until z338 which is 4.5 seconds after Altgens 6.

I expect that when he stepped off the running board and hit the road, he was not immediately running at the car speed and probably went back a few feet before running faster than the car. If he left the car at z265 that would give him 4 seconds to make it to the back of the limo at z338. 

If he leaped off at z307 that would give him 1.69 seconds to get up to speed and dash the 14 feet from the running board to grab the handhold:

That is not much time. He would need to average 20 feet/second or 14 mph from the time he jumped off the running board until reaching the hand-hold (assuming the limo was moving at 12 feet/sec or 8 mph).

I would suggest that 4 seconds is probably closer to the actual running time.

Clint Hill stated there were only two shots.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots have you described that you heard?
Mr. HILL. Two.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any more than two shots?
Mr. HILL. No, sir.

You actually believe in the 1/3 of a second between Hill jumping off of the running board and the headshot, that there was another shot he did not hear? Really?

---------------------------

I would suggest that 4 seconds is probably closer to the actual running time.

Only because you made the whole thing up and really have no idea what you are really stating.

----------------------------


Clint Hill jumps off the running board at Z307 and grabs a hold of the handholds on the back of the limousine at Z337. The speed of the camera is 18.3 frames/second. That is 30 frames. 1 Frame is approximately 1 foot of car travel. It took Clint Hill 1.65 seconds to reach the handholds. He ran at a speed of 30 feet per 1.6 seconds or 18.75 feet per second. 

18,75 feet/second is equal to 12.8 mph. 

(18.3 frames/sec x 1 foot per frame is 18.75 feet per second.  Divided by 5280 feet per mile equals .003 miles per second X 60 seconds per minute x 60 minutes per hour.) ---- 12.8mph

12.8mph is very doable even by your standards. Average sprinting speed of a male is 14.5 mph or 21 feet/sec. 

A Mason: 12.3 mph estimation. 72 feet in 4 seconds. Z265 to Z337. Taken from completely made up crap from an overactive imagination. 

Muchmore film actual calculation of Hill's movements: 12.8mph. As viewed for real in the film

What is your problem again?

----------------------------------

SA Kinney, driving the SS car, states SA Clint Hill never left the SS car until the headshot. But do not let that fact get in the way of this weird theory.

SA Kinney also had the second shot as the headshot. The same as Hickey. Hair flying: Kinney and Hickey were roommates and both reference the hair flying. 

But do not let that get in the way of this useless nonsense you are promoting.


SA Kinney 11/22/63

Index Frame (history-matters.com)

I was driving SS 679-X, follow-up. As we turned off Main Street (left) about 4 minutes from our destination of Trade Mart. The first shot was fired as we were going into an underpass. The first shot was fired, I glanced from the taillight of SS 100-X, at the President and it appeared that he had been shot because he slumped to the left. Immediately he sat up again.* At this time the second shot was fired and I observed hair flying from the right side of his head. With this, simultaneously with the President's car, we stepped on the gas. I released the siren at that time. I did hear three shots but do not recall which shots were those that hit the President.
 *At this time Clint Hill jumped off and ran to the President's car, jumped on the back, and laid out across the trunk in a prone position where he rode the entire trip to the hospital. 

 

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

   Exactly what qualifies as the "off season" for an assassin? You're talking like this rifle was also used to shoot wildlife. Really?

i say that in jest. I uzually say that it involves shooting a president out of season without a permit.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

You're wrong.

I am 100% confident that 100% of what i have ever posted on the jfkassassinationforum & on the education forum is 100% correct.
Of course when u wize up & realize my super intelligence u will of course admit that u were wrong.
[edit][Some of my very early stuff was wrong -- but i was learning fast]
[For a while i wrongly thort that the jfk headshot was the first shot of Hickey's auto burst -- koz Hickey fell backwards -- but it was actually the last shot -- koz Hickey fell forward before he fell backward]

[Andrew Mason]

Clint Hill stated there were only two shots.

Of course.  I never said otherwise.  I said he accepts that there were three shots. You think that's weird. I don't.

You actually believe in the 1/3 of a second between Hill jumping off of the running board and the headshot, that there was another shot he did not hear? Really?

I am saying that the evidence puts the second shot at a point after Altgens' #6 photo at z255 and before JBC begins falling back which starts about z278. It was enough after z255 so that the interval between the second and third shots was noticeably shorter than the interval between the first and second.  The first struck JFK in the back and exited his throat.  I say that the evidence puts it between z190 and z200 not at z223.

Clint Hill jumps off the running board at Z307 and grabs a hold of the handholds on the back of the limousine at Z337.

You see him jumping off? 

The speed of the camera is 18.3 frames/second. That is 30 frames. 1 Frame is approximately 1 foot of car travel. It took Clint Hill 1.65 seconds to reach the handholds. He ran at a speed of 30 feet per 1.6 seconds or 18.75 feet per second.
18,75 feet/second is equal to 12.8 mph. 

I don't quite understand how you get 30 feet but it is not far off.  The separation Hill-handhold is 14 feet.  In 1.65 seconds at 8 mph (11.7 fps) the car moves 19 feet.  So in 1.65 seconds he has to cover 19+14 feet.  So his average speed is 33 ft/1.65 sec. = 20 fps= 13.6 mph.  That has to be his average speed from the time he jumps off until he reaches the car. 

Have you ever tried jumping off a car moving at 8 mph and trying to out-run it?  I haven't but if you have please relate to us how long it took for you to get up to a speed of running faster than the car.

12.8mph is very doable even by your standards. Average sprinting speed of a male is 14.5 mph or 21 feet/sec.

The 10 m split time for Usain Bolt in his 2009 world record 100 m of 9.58 sec. was 1.85 sec. 10 m is 32 feet.  So you think Clint Hill, wearing a suit and street shoes could beat Usain Bolt at his prime?  You seem to be saying he did.

SA Kinney, driving the SS car, states SA Clint Hill never left the SS car until the headshot. But do not let that fact get in the way of this weird theory.

You are reading things into Kinney's statement.  Your interpretation of what Kinney meant does not fit with his interviews with Gerald Blaine. In his book "The Kennedy Detail", chapter 12 - Six Seconds in Dallas, author Gerald Blaine says this:

• "Follow-up car driver Sam Kinney’s responsibility was to maintain his focus
  on the president’s car. He saw Kennedy’s reaction to the first shot and then saw
  Clint leap onto the pavement a split second later. He immediately turned the
  follow-up car slightly to the right to clear a path for Clint to reach the president
  and first lady. His eyes were still focused on President Kennedy when he heard
  the second shot and saw Governor Connally slump toward his wife".

SA Kinney also had the second shot as the headshot. The same as Hickey. Hair flying: Kinney and Hickey were roommates and both reference the hair flying.

Except that Hickey said the flying hair on the right side of JFK's head was on the second shot and it appeared not to have hit JFK.  He saw the third shot hit JFK in the head.  See: Hickey,  18 H 762 (statement 30Nov63).

• At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them. It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right upper rear of his head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again.

What is interesting to note, though, about Hickey is that JFK's hair actually does fly up and back down just as he described - at z273-278:

which is immediately before JBC starts sailing forward and falling back onto Nellie...

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Of course.  I never said otherwise.  I said he accepts that there were three shots. You think that's weird. I don't.I am saying that the evidence puts the second shot at a point after Altgens' #6 photo at z255 and before JBC begins falling back which starts about z278. It was enough after z255 so that the interval between the second and third shots was noticeably shorter than the interval between the first and second.  The first struck JFK in the back and exited his throat.  I say that the evidence puts it between z190 and z200 not at z223. You see him jumping off?  I don't quite understand how you get 30 feet but it is not far off.  The separation Hill-handhold is 14 feet.  In 1.65 seconds at 8 mph (11.7 fps) the car moves 19 feet.  So in 1.65 seconds he has to cover 19+14 feet.  So his average speed is 33 ft/1.65 sec. = 20 fps= 13.6 mph.  That has to be his average speed from the time he jumps off until he reaches the car. 

Have you ever tried jumping off a car moving at 8 mph and trying to out-run it?  I haven't but if you have please relate to us how long it took for you to get up to a speed of running faster than the car.
The 10 m split time for Usain Bolt in his 2009 world record 100 m of 9.58 sec. was 1.85 sec. 10 m is 32 feet.  So you think Clint Hill, wearing a suit and street shoes could beat Usain Bolt at his prime?  You seem to be saying he did.
You are reading things into Kinney's statement.  Your interpretation of what Kinney meant does not fit with his interviews with Gerald Blaine. In his book "The Kennedy Detail", chapter 12 - Six Seconds in Dallas, author Gerald Blaine says this:

• "Follow-up car driver Sam Kinney’s responsibility was to maintain his focus
  on the president’s car. He saw Kennedy’s reaction to the first shot and then saw
  Clint leap onto the pavement a split second later. He immediately turned the
  follow-up car slightly to the right to clear a path for Clint to reach the president
  and first lady. His eyes were still focused on President Kennedy when he heard
  the second shot and saw Governor Connally slump toward his wife".

Except that Hickey said the flying hair on the right side of JFK's head was on the second shot and it appeared not to have hit JFK.  He saw the third shot hit JFK in the head.  See: Hickey,  18 H 762 (statement 30Nov63).

• At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them. It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right upper rear of his head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again.

What is interesting to note, though, about Hickey is that JFK's hair actually does fly up and back down just as he described - at z273-278:

which is immediately before JBC starts sailing forward and falling back onto Nellie...

Hmmmmm -- i reckoned that Kinney touched his brakes which made SSA Hickey fall forward -- but now it appears that i can add that Kinney allso veered to the right  --- & the sudden veer would not have helped Hickey's balance -- Hmmmmm.
SSA Hill jumped off at about Z300 & Hill was allmost level with the front wheel at Z313.
What made Kinney look 90 deg hard right at about Z330 -- Kinney was supposed to be concentrating on Hill & the back of the jfklimo.

[Frank Beard]

Both Connally and his wife said he wasn’t hit by the shot that hit JFK
I think there is another moment a couple of seconds later. Connally turns to look back and then reacts.
First bullet hits JFK.
Second shot hits Connally
Third shot hits JFK.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Both Connally and his wife said he wasn’t hit by the shot that hit JFK
I think there is another moment a couple of seconds later. Connally turns to look back and then reacts.
First bullet hits JFK.
Second shot hits Connally
Third shot hits JFK.

The worst witnesses were Jackie & then Mrs Connolly & then all of the SSA's & then all of the cops.
Go figure.