Et tu, Bonnie?

[Colin Crow]

Blue box quote from JohnM

Firstly, to say 'why would' is assuming the fellow would do what you would or wouldn't do.

And silence has a funny way of sounding deafening: If he heard no sound as he entered the sixth floor, he might have had a pretty good idea that his buddies hadn't arrived yet. And he might have decided that the stack of boxes in the se corner blocked off that corner and maybe the windows as well; not worth checking out.

Colin, can you tell us just how long is the 'long time' you claim he was on the 6th floor during lunch. For one thing he wouldn't have to worry about missing the parade until he heard a big surge in crowd noise as would certainly occur when the motorcade finally turned the corner at Main (and even louder as the limo itself appeared). He had a wall of windows to choose from, dirty or not. And I doubt that they were nailed shut.

Those were John's thoughts but seem reasonable given they had been stacking books there he would be aware of the arrangement in th SN.

As for the timing of his exit in believe it to be around 12.25 or so. I think this was about the time Brennan took position on the wall. The motorcade would have started on Main. Then a minute or two to find the guys below gets him there just a few minutes before the shooting. It seems he must leave almost as Jarman and Norman arrive on the fifth.

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the people in different building windows, including the fire escape across from the Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store, and also the Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few people in different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times.

As he took up position about 12.25, could the first sighting be of Williams exiting the SN?  Saw the man leave the window "a couple of times?" This was not reported previously.
   

[Colin Crow]

As usual, I've tried to understand what's going on and ended up more baffled.

On the 22nd BRW signs his affidavit saying he went upstairs with Norman and Jarman.
On the 23rd, in a FBI interview he states he went up to 6 by himself with his lunch.
On the same day Jarman signs his affidavit. It mentions nothing about going upstairs.
On the 24th Jarman has an FBI interview. Once again, it mentions nothing about going upstairs.
Norman is not asked to give an affidavit at this time (?)
On the 26th Norman has an FBI interview. It mentions nothing about going upstairs.

Neither Norman nor Jarman mention going upstairs and Williams has straightened his story out by the 23rd.
In the weeks that follow the men must surely have talked about things at work, compared notes, as it were.
However, this doesn't appear to be the case.

On the 4th December Norman signs his affidavit:

"About 12:15 PM...after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building...Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also work with me at this building went with me."

Norman appears to be supporting the lie Bonnie Ray distanced himself from the day after the assassination. In a sworn and signed affidavit. The next day Jarman also has a FBI interview but it seems to be about Oswald's clothes and not much more.

On the 14th January, 64, Jarman has another FBI interview. If Norman's statement can be written off as some kind of mis-statement, Jarman's cannot:

"He [Jarman] said that he and the other two boys [Norman and Williams] ate lunch on the first floor around 12:00 noon on November 22, 1963, and shortly afterwards went to the fifth floor, about 12:25 PM...He said RAY and NORMAN were with him all the time he was on the first floor..."

WTF!
Jarman and Norman don't need to cover for Williams. He has already straightened out his story. By the 26th everything is under control. Then both Norman and Jarman feel it necessary to carry on the lie.
Or do they?

Check Williams 23rd statement. He moves the elevator race to 11.30. Now mentions briefly going to the sixth for a few minutes then goes down to the fifth. It’s a simple time shift to avoid 12.15, the time Rowland has a gunman on the sixth floor. His story is evolving by Saturday but has no way to contact Jarman and Norman until Monday.

[Bill Chapman]

As usual, I've tried to understand what's going on and ended up more baffled.

On the 22nd BRW signs his affidavit saying he went upstairs with Norman and Jarman.
On the 23rd, in a FBI interview he states he went up to 6 by himself with his lunch.
On the same day Jarman signs his affidavit. It mentions nothing about going upstairs.
On the 24th Jarman has an FBI interview. Once again, it mentions nothing about going upstairs.
Norman is not asked to give an affidavit at this time (?)
On the 26th Norman has an FBI interview. It mentions nothing about going upstairs.

Neither Norman nor Jarman mention going upstairs and Williams has straightened his story out by the 23rd.
In the weeks that follow the men must surely have talked about things at work, compared notes, as it were.
However, this doesn't appear to be the case.

On the 4th December Norman signs his affidavit:

"About 12:15 PM...after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building...Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also work with me at this building went with me."

Norman appears to be supporting the lie Bonnie Ray distanced himself from the day after the assassination. In a sworn and signed affidavit. The next day Jarman also has a FBI interview but it seems to be about Oswald's clothes and not much more.

On the 14th January, 64, Jarman has another FBI interview. If Norman's statement can be written off as some kind of mis-statement, Jarman's cannot:

"He [Jarman] said that he and the other two boys [Norman and Williams] ate lunch on the first floor around 12:00 noon on November 22, 1963, and shortly afterwards went to the fifth floor, about 12:25 PM...He said RAY and NORMAN were with him all the time he was on the first floor..."

WTF!
Jarman and Norman don't need to cover for Williams. He has already straightened out his story. By the 26th everything is under control. Then both Norman and Jarman feel it necessary to carry on the lie.
Or do they?

Maybe too much emphasis is being placed on a couple of guys seemingly more interested in horsing around, racing elevators and whatnot, than them being interested in recording the exact timing & sequence of who was where and when.

Re seemingly conflicting affidavits involving the 3 amigos, don't forget that affidavits are not Q&A and each person will spout off about whatever comes to mind in those moments when giving said affidavit.

[Colin Crow]

Maybe too much emphasis is being placed on a couple of guys seemingly more interested in horsing around, racing elevators and whatnot, than them being interested in recording the exact timing & sequence of who was where and when.

Re seemingly conflicting affidavits involving the 3 amigos, don't forget that affidavits are not Q&A and each person will spout off about whatever comes to mind in those moments when giving said affidavit.

Well it seems no emphasis was placed on the differences by the various agencies. Ball and Belin eventually sought answers in a memo to Willens. They went to Dallas in mid March to sort out a narrative that "worked". They ignored the early sighting of the lunch in the SN and went with the Studebaker arrangement. They had to have Williams on the floor after 12.15 though and in a position he would have seen someone in the SW window. Somehow they had Oswald crouching in the SN at that time.

[Dan O'meara]

Maybe too much emphasis is being placed on a couple of guys seemingly more interested in horsing around, racing elevators and whatnot, than them being interested in recording the exact timing & sequence of who was where and when.

Yeah, maybe that's what it is Bill.

Re seemingly conflicting affidavits involving the 3 amigos, don't forget that affidavits are not Q&A and each person will spout off about whatever comes to mind in those moments when giving said affidavit.

I was naively assuming that an innocent person being asked to give a statement regarding such a massive event would be doing their best to remember what they did, as opposed to just spouting off the first thing that came into their heads as if it was all some kind of joke.

[Dan O'meara]

Check Williams 23rd statement. He moves the elevator race to 11.30. Now mentions briefly going to the sixth for a few minutes then goes down to the fifth. It’s a simple time shift to avoid 12.15, the time Rowland has a gunman on the sixth floor. His story is evolving by Saturday but has no way to contact Jarman and Norman until Monday.

Not sure why BRW's would try to mould his statement around Rowland's.
How is BRW aware of the content of Rowland's witness testimony.
In his affidavit on the 22nd Rowland doesn't mention the specific time of 12:15 PM. He gives a general "about 15 minutes".
Why, in his statement to the FBI, given on the 23rd, does Williams alter his statement to take Rowland's into account?

During Wlilliams' WC testimony Ball brings up an FBI interview:

"Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were watching the Presidential parade."


On 01/14/64 Carter and Griffin interview Williams (I can't find a copy of this interview anywhere). Williams is clear he went up to the 6th floor for lunch and was there until around 12:05 PM.
Also on 01/14/64 Carter and Griffin interview Jarman. Jarman is equally clear that Williams stayed on the 1st floor with himself and Norman.
On the same day Carter and Griffin have two completely contradictory accounts of the movements of BRW.

It is also during this interview with Carter and Griffin that it is first revealed that Williams saw a police officer on the 6th floor (Jarman and Norman see nothing of the sort)

"Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet."

Can anyone point me to a copy of Williams' 01/14/64 interview?

[Colin Crow]

Not sure why BRW's would try to mould his statement around Rowland's.
How is BRW aware of the content of Rowland's witness testimony.
In his affidavit on the 22nd Rowland doesn't mention the specific time of 12:15 PM. He gives a general "about 15 minutes".
Why, in his statement to the FBI, given on the 23rd, does Williams alter his statement to take Rowland's into account?

During Wlilliams' WC testimony Ball brings up an FBI interview:

"Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were watching the Presidential parade."


On 01/14/64 Carter and Griffin interview Williams (I can't find a copy of this interview anywhere). Williams is clear he went up to the 6th floor for lunch and was there until around 12:05 PM.
Also on 01/14/64 Carter and Griffin interview Jarman. Jarman is equally clear that Williams stayed on the 1st floor with himself and Norman.
On the same day Carter and Griffin have two completely contradictory accounts of the movements of BRW.

It is also during this interview with Carter and Griffin that it is first revealed that Williams saw a police officer on the 6th floor (Jarman and Norman see nothing of the sort)

"Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet."

Can anyone point me to a copy of Williams' 01/14/64 interview?

I was going from memory with the early call on Rowland. I believe Williams simply tried to do two things on the 23rd. First was to try and move his trip to the sixth floor at least 20 minutes earlier than the event of the shooting. Second was to minimise his time there to just a few minutes.

I couldn’t find the report you requested. I will search my files.

I don’t believe these guys would be horsing around...in any event it was the responsibility of the agencies and investigators to resolve the contradictions. These were not difficult events to recall. For some reason Jarman and Norman stood by Williams being with them until the visit to Dallas by Ball and Belin to sort things out.

Interestingly about two months later Bonnie Ray had reverted to his previous timeline. This was the one I was thinking of relating to Rowland. He even mentions he has gone by 12.15 specifically. Did he forget the WC story?