JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Marjan Rynkiewicz:
Here is view from eye-level (say 5 ft 6 in) standing on the footpath on the north-east corner of Elm & Houston.
Note that the eye/camera here is in effect below the level of the road when JFK is at Z218 and Z313, ie a level of minus say 1 ft 0 in.
Which suggests that Moore's eye-level when standing near the south-east corner was say 3 ft 0 in.
I dont know how/why Google took this at 5 ft 6 in, they usually have their car/camera at about 7 ft 0 in (just guessing).
I think Ethan Ferguson took this 360 deg panorama.
The young lady is crossing exactly where Oswald crossed, after he had gone a little way up Houston, before he did a U-turn & crossed Houston (on a slight angle), & then crossed Elm, except that he was holding a bottle of Coca Cola.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 27, 2021, 08:24:03 AM ---Moore saw that shot-1 was when JFK was just past the signals, not when near the Thornton sign (the FBI wrongly mentioned the Thornton sign).
Hence in fact Moore confirms that Oswald's shot-1 was at say Z113 (or even earlier as per Holland).
--- End quote ---
But it is not just Moore who put the first shot when JFK was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign, which was about z200. Linda Willis put the first shot when JFK was on her sight line to the Stemmons sign, which puts it between z195 and z205. The occupants of the VP car said the car had just finished the turn onto Elm. It is still turning when last seen at z180. Betzner said his z186 photo was before the first shot - he was turning the film to take another when it sounded. Occupants of the VP follow up car said they were just finishing the turn and about parallel to the TSBD when the first shot sounded. It is still turning and pointing toward the TSBD when last seen at z191. Other witnesses along Elm described where JFK was in relation to where they were standing when the first shot sounded. They all converge around z200. Not a single witness said JFK continued to smile and wave after the first shot. Over 20 said he reacted immediately.
But, perhaps more to the point, there are too many witnesses who said that the last two shots were close together - in rapid succession - e.g Sheriff Roger Craig: "Not more than 2 seconds. It was—they were real rapid." 6H263. Unless you think that 5 seconds is "real rapid" or "rapid succession" or "just about as fast as you could expect a man to operate a bolt action rifle" (Hudson, 26Nov63 WCD CD5 HSCA Ex. RG233), that does not fit a first shot miss.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Jerry Organ on August 27, 2021, 06:09:11 PM ---Moore said the car was on this side of the Thornton sign, meaning it hadn't reached it. You really think Moore could calculate the President was exactly perpendicular to the Thornton sign when Moore was almost directly behind the President?
--- End quote ---
According to his statement, he said "By the time President Kennedy had reached the Thornton Freeway sign a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in the Presidential car." I wasn't there. I don't see why he would not be able to see that.
BUT we don't have to rely on just him. There are at least 20 other witnesses who said that JFK moved left or slumped or assumed a blank look or clutched at his neck etc. (different vantage points) immediately after the first shot. He did that just after z200. Not a single witness said he smiled and waved for 2-3 seconds as you insist he did. Also, the shot pattern with the last two shots close together in rapid succession means that JFK was hit by the first shot. I know you think all that evidence is mistaken but I don't think that many witnesses can possibly be independently mistaken in exactly the same way (let alone that they were).
--- Quote ---The Willis girl apparently got her signs mixed up. Perhaps influenced by her father's slide that featured the Stemmons sign. Her father, BTW, said the first shot occurred between his slide at Z133 and Z202. It made, he said, Mrs. Kennedy look from his side of the street to the opposite side.
--- End quote ---
Right. Another witness whose evidence must be wrong in order to cling to the SBT.
Marjan Rynkiewicz:
--- Quote from: Jerry Organ on August 27, 2021, 06:09:11 PM ---
--- End quote ---
Hickey in rear of Queen Mary begins to lean & look near the rear tyre at Z144 -- which supports shot-1 being at Z113.
Marjan Rynkiewicz:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/scearce.htm
HIDDEN IN PLAIN VIEW: The Zapruder Film and the Shot that Missed
By Kenneth R. Scearce
November 27th, 2007
Returning now to the actions in the early Zapruder frames, we can draw the following inferences:
• The leftward head turns of JFK, Mrs. Kennedy, Hickey and Connally visible in the earliest Zapruder frames were almost exactly simultaneous. JFK begins to turn his head left at Z140. Mrs. Kennedy begins to turn her head left at Z142. Hickey begins to look left and downwards, starting at Z143/144. At Z149, Connally begins to turn his head left. JFK, Mrs. Kennedy, Hickey and Connally begin their leftward head movements within ½ second of each other. This simultaneity suggests that the leftward head turns of these four people were probably due to the same cause.
• The Zapruder film shows that JFK, Connally and Mrs. Kennedy first turned their heads left before turning their heads right. When viewed dynamically, it is clear that the leftward and then rightward head turns of JFK, Connally and Mrs. Kennedy are related to each other. Their rightward head turns are a continuation of their leftward head turns a moment before. Looking only at their later rightwards head turns while ignoring their earlier, related leftward head turns—as the Myers/consensus timing does—results in misinterpretation of the evidence.
• The 1st shot was fired from the right rear. The movements discussed herein were towards the left first, then towards the right. The sound dynamics in the assassination environment may explain this, or the explanation may be simply that the people in question were confused. If the 1st shot ricocheted off the metal traffic light arm and hit the pavement, it could have produced a smacking sound to the left of the limousine. Or, the explanation could be a multiplicity of these and other factors.
• Viewed individually, each of these leftward head turns might by explainable for reasons other than gunshot reactions—for instance, as reactions to the crowd. But when considered collectively, the odds greatly diminish that these abrupt actions—occurring well before the consensus Z155–Z157 timing—are explainable innocuously. Hickey looks left and downwards at the pavement or at the tires the vehicles, not at the crowd. Connally’s left/right head swing is much too fast too have been a reaction to the crowd—it is obviously a reaction to severe stress.
• The dramatic nature of the reactions (especially Connally’s) necessitates a threatening stimulus. The simultaneity of the reactions suggests a common cause. The timing of the beginning of these reactions in frames Z140–Z149 indicates, if we allow for naturalistic reaction time of 1–2 seconds, that the threatening stimulus occurred before Z133.
We have seen that Connally’s sudden left-then-right head turns refute the notion that the 1st first shot was fired at around Z155–Z157. It must have been fired earlier. The farther back in time and space the 1st shot was fired, the less chance there was that the tree could explain the fact that the shot missed. At some point farther back from the Z155–Z157 consensus timing, the tree simply cannot be the explanation. We can see this by extrapolating JFK’s position from the following Secret Service re-enactment photograph:
At this moment (Z140), which would allow for a ½ second head-turning reaction by Connally (much faster than natural, but about as generous as possible to Myers), the tree is not yet a plausible cause of a ricochet. The more naturalistic 1–2 second reaction time likewise rules out the tree as a cause.
Prior to the tree, only one other possible cause for a ricochet existed: the traffic light’s extension arm.
A 1st shot occurring just before Z133 not only fits with the film’s images and the physical evidence at the crime scene, it also corresponds well with the Holland/Rush metal traffic light arm ricochet theory—a theory that explains the missed shot, and some of the other thorniest issues about the assassination in general such as whether Oswald could have accomplished the feat alone, better than any other theory heretofore conceived.
At its core, the Myers/consensus timing stands or falls on the accuracy of Connally’s recollection of the direction in which he first turned his head after hearing the 1st shot. The film is the best evidence of this, not Connally.
#59 Brian Roselle
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2792.50.html
https://sites.google.com/site/earlyzapruderfilmreactions/reactions-seen-early-in-zapruder-film
https://www.acsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-Estimating-Occult-Timing-of-Surprise-Gunshot-Sounds-in-Silent-Film-via-Observed-Start-of-Human-Voluntary-Reactions-of-Concern-Roselle.pdf
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2792.40.html
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