JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate

Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.

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Marjan Rynkiewicz:
Here is a still from i think Dale Myer's footage.
Dale's footage is slightly wrong. The guy rods are shown too thin, they were thicker.
Also the guy rods coupling collar is shown too far left, it was much closer to JFK.
Oswald's shot-1 actually ricocheted off a guy rod, not the main support arm.
But i have ignored that & i have shown a star showing a ricochet on/off the arm.
The main thing is that some small lead fragments hit JFK in the right rear of his head (Xrays), as per the second star.
And then the remnant lead slug put a hole in the floor (third star).
And the 2 bits of copper jacket ricocheted somewhere in between the second and third stars.

Andrew Mason:

--- Quote from: Mark Tyler on May 12, 2021, 10:05:37 PM ---You mentioned a witness named "Whatley", but I'm not familiar with this person.  Could you link the source for who this witness was and what they said?

In his statement from January 1964, TE Moore said that JFK had reached the Thornton freeway sign when the first shot was fired.  The general timing of this would have been around Z180-Z200 and can be referenced by the Betzner photo which shows the limo position at Z186 relative to the Thornton freeway sign:



Moore is one of many witnesses connecting the first shot with the Z180-Z200 timeframe, which directly challenges all theories which have a shot fired before Z170 and confirms that the Zapruder film jiggle Z190-Z210 is a result of Zapruder being startled by the first shot.

One very important point about John Connally's statement is that he said he heard a shot fired 2 second before he was hit, but he never heard the shot that hit him.  In other words the only shots he heard were the shots fired around Z185, and Z310.  This may mean that the 2 second delay was a body shock of some kind and there wasn't a shot fired at Z218 (as the HSCA suggested), or it means there were shots at Z185 and Z218 but he failed to hear the Z218 shot as he was distracted by the pain of the injury.

Sadly this dilemma cannot be resolved by Connally's statement alone, and the other witnesses are split somewhat: most say there was only one shot before JFK raised his arms, but enough mentioned two shots in quick succession so it should be seriously considered as a possibility.

--- End quote ---
Your points are well taken.  The evidence does not support an first shot before Betzner's z186 photo.

However, while many witnesses recalled a shot pattern with two shots in rapid succession, the vast majority (over 40) specifically recalled the last two shots in rapid succession.  See my compilation of these witnesses.

What this evidence tells us is that there was only one shot before the midpoint between shots 1 and 3 with the first shot not being before z186 and the last shot at z312-3

Marjan Rynkiewicz:
I found the DeRonja article re the Oswald Shot-1 ricochet off the signal arm.
But it doesn't have the info about the copper jacket breaking into 2 pieces.
I think that there is a Haag article or Haag youtube footage that shows the 2 pieces.
If anyone knows of this, or finds it, please let me know. Thanx.

https://www.acsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DeRonja-Holland-2.pdf
A Technical Investigation Pertaining to the First Shot Fired in the JFK Assassination
Article Frank S. DeRonja1 , MS Engr & Max Holland2 1 Forensic Metallurgy Associates, Springfield, VA, USA

21. Haag LC. The Missing Bullet in the JFK Assassination. AFTE J. 2015;47(2):75.
23. Haag MG, Haag LC. Shooting Incident Reconstruction. San Diego (CA): Academic Press; 2011, 238.

Marjan Rynkiewicz:
Moore saw that shot-1 was when JFK was just past the signals, not when near the Thornton sign (the FBI wrongly mentioned the Thornton sign).
Hence in fact Moore confirms that Oswald's shot-1 was at say Z113 (or even earlier as per Holland).
Anyhow, JFK duznt slump here, but he raises his right hand/arm, koz small lead fragments ricochet into the right-back of his head (seen in xrays).

Hence, if the FBI were wrong re the Thornton sign, then we might add that it was the FBI that wrongly mentioned that Moore couldnt see JFK for the next 2 shots.
Or, Moore was wrong (if the FBI report aint wrong).

I doubt that Moore could see throo the 10 agents -- 5 sitting low, 1 sitting hi (Hickey), and 4 standing -- in Queen Mary!
Plus could he see throo the raised sun shades on the windshield.
Plus there is a serious crest, where Elm St starts to fall (5.8%), and hence Moore (standing say 60 ft east of the crest) has an effective eye height of only say 3 ft 0 in instead of 5 ft 6 in.
Hence Moore probly couldnt see JFK at Oswald's shot-2, at Z218, nor when JFK very slightly slumps after Z218.

Just before Z313 the gawkers standing on the south west corner of Elm & Houston run out onto Elm St (& Tina Towner runs out too), and hence they block Moore's view of JFK at the last shot(s) at Z313 & just before Z313, ie Hickey's shots-1234 & probly a shot-5, & possibly a shot-6.
And re JFK slumping, this would have been well after Z313, eg Z333.

No, Moore never saw JFK slump.

Marjan Rynkiewicz:
The 3 stars show approx JFK at Z113 (shot-1) & Z218 (shot-2) & Z313 (Hickey shot-4 or 5 or 6).
There is a 5.8% grade in Elm St, with crest near Houston St.

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