JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate

Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.

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Marjan Rynkiewicz:
I found a new witness, Christopher, who reckons that Oswald's shot-1 didn't touch the signals/backboard.
11 March 2007 -- 11 Seconds in Dallas, Not Six -- By Max Holland and Johann W. Rush.
https://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2007/03/11-seconds-in-d.html

Christopher
I was an electrician's apprentice charged with changing out the traffic signals in 2004, when Dallas went from 8" light bulb to 12" LED.
The one signal I never Ebay'd or sold for scrap is the one from the mast arm over Elm.
By most accounts, it looks similar to the ones depicted in the pictures I see; and from what I can tell, it's a roughly 1947 model signal.
I'm looking at it right now, and while I don't see any dents that appear bullet-like,
I can tell you that the rectangular tin frame around the signal was installed slightly crooked,
which allows more light to come through on the bottom-right corner (closest to the depository).
This might explain why some thought there was bullet-damage on the light itself, as opposed to the mast arm.
Had I read this a decade ago, I'd have checked that arm for ya ;^).
Posted by: Christopher | 12 September 2013 at 02:25 AM

In that article Holland says that Oswald's shot-1 was 1.4 sec before Z133, which makes it at Z107-108, timewise.
I reckon it was at Z113, timewise. So, we differ timewise, & i bet that Holland is less wrong than me.
But pozzy-wize we agree to the inch, shot-1 was when JFK was in line with the signal arm.



Actually we can see a hole near the lower right corner in this here Oswald's view too, but it aint a bullet hole.


The camera in the limo must have been nearly into the left lane. But if the limo & the camera were properly positioned then its line of sight to Oswald would be some inches left of the collar or coupling, ie the slug would have ricocheted off the guy rod not the 2" arm.
 

Marjan Rynkiewicz:

--- Quote from: Jerry Organ on May 06, 2021, 12:44:44 AM ---

Moore apparently was referring to the Thornton Freeway sign, which has highway numbers on it.



It could be Moore in the 1960s was familiar with the sign being called Thornton, but by the 1980s wasn't able to recall the term Thornton.

Moore wasn't side-to to the limousine, so his estimation that the President "had reached the Thronton Freeway sign" at the moment of the first shot would have been from an oblique view. It seems to work well with a first shot in the Z150s, being heard by some about Z161. A first shot in the Z200s would probably mean the President was blocked from Moore's view by the Queen Mary and the agents stood on the car's running boards.

The cluster sign stand you refer to could not be characterized as a "highway marker sign". The "RL Thornton Freeway" sign refers to a highway.

--- End quote ---
My Reply#23 says that Moore said a small highway marker sign, in front of the TSBD.
The twin cluster sign stand a half car length past the signals has nothing but highway markers, about 14 of them.
The Thornton sign is not a small highway marker, but as u say it has 6 little highway markers below.
Strange, the last time i looked at the FBI report it had two errors, it nominated the Thornton sign, &, it had Moore standing near the wrong corner, someone has doctored the wording.
Moore said he was standing 6 or 8 paces out into the intersection from the southeast corner.
And, he said he could see all of the action down Elm St, subject of course as u say to being blocked by Queen Mary & Co.
And, if the JFK limo had just then straightened on Elm, then the question of judging distance doesnt rear its ugly head.

Is Thornton a Freeway or is it a turnpike?  Or is Stemmons a turnpike, praps a long way further north.
The furtherest sign says that there is some kind of turnpike before Fort Worth.

Oswald shot-1. JFK at distance one limo length past the signals. Ricochets off western side of western signal arm guy rod. Hull found at SN.
Oswald shot-1. Oswald fired at T137 which is say Z112, slug lands at T138 ie Z113, noise arrives at T139 ie Z114.
Max Holland says shot-1 was at time Z107-8.
Dale Myers says that shot-1 was at i think T150 or some silly such late number. No it was at T138.
Oswald shot-1. A spray of fine lead hits the back of JFK's head (XRays).
Remnant slug makes non-round hole in limo floor (photo), & probly hits driveshaft & road (& aint found).
The FMJ broke in 2 as is usual (CE567 CE569 found in limo).

Oswald shot-2. JFK at time & distance Z218 (the magic bullet)(found). Hull found at SN.

Hickey shot-1. JFK at time & distance Z313, blows some of JFK's head off (small lead fragments found in head)'
Hickey shot-1. Remnant slug veered 6 deg & cracked glass (& aint found).
Hickey shot-2. JFK at time Z316 (slug makes dent in chrome trim)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-3. JFK at time Z319 (slug hits tarmac Elm St)(possibly wounded Tague)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-4. JFK at time Z321 (slug hits curb Elm St)(possibly wounded Tague)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-5. JFK at time Z324 (slug hits grass)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-6. JFK at time Z327 (if Hickey fired 6 shots)(slug hits curb Main St)(possibly wounded Tague).
[edit][i have now established that it was shot-6 or at least the last shot that was the JFK headshot, ie shot-5 dented the chrome trim, shot-1 possibly wounded Tague etc.][see my thread Bronson Saw Hickey Shoot JFK.]
None of the 5 or 6 hulls are found. They must have somehow stayed in Queen Mary, & were picked up by Agents on the way to Parklands, & secreted.
The AR15 01 fired at 400 rps (but zero footages on youtube) & would have ejected the hulls say half the distance of modern AR15's which fired at 1200 rps (when autos were still legal)(lots of footages of ejections & ejaculations on youtube).

Marjan Rynkiewicz:
Your "singular" semantic argument gets 0 out of 10 from me.
Likewise your "Thornton" argument gets 0 out of 10.
I will give u a 10 out of 10 for the FBI report having the correct SE corner (it must have been me that was confused by Moore's word "cater").
I will give u 1 out of 10 for saying that Towner stopped filming before shot-1, if indeed she ever said that.
But i remember her saying that she couldnt recall whether it was just before or just after. And my film analysis says JFK was on Oswald's sight line to the signal arm at T137, slug arives at T138, sound arrives at T139, Towner finishes at T142 which is 3 frames after, but allowing 1 frame to reach Towner's brain, & allowing 1 frame for the ear part of the brain to tell the Towner part of the brain, then Towner "hears" shot-1 at T141, almost a draw.

I will give u 10 out of 10 for saying that Donahue drew Hickey high up to not only help his needed wound traject but also to get clearance over the windshield.
I have previously shown in my "was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode" thread that the AR15 needed to be more than 3" higher than the windshield (based on being on level ground), not Donahue's 18" (cant remember his exact number)(here i did not look into Donahue's wound trajectory).

The Bronson frame supposedly showing Hickey sitting at Z313 i have explained to be later than Z313. (I give u 1 out of 10 here).
And Hickey was half standing in that Bronson frame, Bennett was the one sitting low down.
I have explained all of that in my Bronson threads.
The superior 2019 Bronson frame (of that there inferior 2017 Bronson frame from Robin Unger's gallery) shows that the AR15 was rapidly swinging up at 45 deg. The frame that u tout that sinks the Hickey theory actually reinforces the Hickey theory.

I dont know why Zapruder & many others did not hear shot-1 being at Z113. (I give u 1 out of 10 here).
But many (including i think Zapruder) said that the first shot was at Z210 to Z230.
I think that this deafness might have been due to peer pressure & the passage of time.
And due to FBI etc pressure pushing questions & even answers the way they liked.
U will recall that the FBI could have questioned everyone near the signals etc but they questioned very few.
And these A-grade witnesses were asked questions such as "did u see anyone strange in the TSBD".
And "where were u standing".
And "how many shots did u hear".
Thank u mam, that will be all, oh, just one more thing, "what did u have for breakfast".

I forgive Donahue for his silly drawing. He is one of my heroes, having found that Hickey fired the headshot.
And Max Holland is a hero, for finding that shot-1 ricocheted off the signals (& i forgive Max for being a LNer).
And Colin McLaren is a hero (alltho i cant remember what his contribution was)(i think his only contribution was to draw attention to Donahue & Holland).

And i am a hero, for finding that Hickey fired a plurality of shots, alltho Floyd Boring was the one who first mentioned it many years ago, albeit to poo poo the possibility that Hickey fired, he said that if Hickey fired he almost certainly would have had the AR15 in AUTO, & that Hickey would have fired 2 or 3 shots not 1 shot. However i didnt know of Boring until this week. I figured it out myself. Anyhow that's my theory. It can be called mental ejaculation.

I bring certain skills. My background includes road design. Traffic accident analysis. Design of drain inlets & systems. Surveying. Design, drawing, drafting, CAD. Hence i find it easy to
look into much of this stuff.
Mostly i reckon that i can spot the difference tween truth & camel spombleprofglidnoctobuns. Otherwise i would be a CTer or a LNer.

Mark Tyler:

--- Quote from: Jerry Organ on May 08, 2021, 06:47:59 PM ---You're so invested in this, you're beyond persuasion. My reality checks are for the benefit of readers.

Tina Towner has been consistent in stating the first shot occurred after she stopped filming, the span ranging from a few seconds to four. You might be thinking of her appearance in "JFK: The Lost Bullet" when they failed to present her timing of the first shot, but had room for things like "My dad recognized the gunshot."

--- End quote ---

Hi Jerry.  I've not been able to track down many early Tina Towner interviews, just Life magazine and Teen magazine from 1967-1968.  She does seem clear that the shooting started after her filming stopped.  Are there any other interviews I have missed from the 1960's or 1970's that you know of?

Do you have any strong views on when the first shot was fired or do you think the evidence is too ambiguous to be certain?

Mark Tyler:

--- Quote from: Marjan Rynkiewicz on April 14, 2021, 06:41:31 AM ---At 1:20 Connally says …… "we had just turned the corner, we heard a shot…."
Notice that Connally is confused, he thinks that JFK had been badly wounded by the first shot, but in fact JFK & Connally had been both hit by the magic bullet ie the 2nd shot at Z218.
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzvGIsu6KGo
--- End quote ---

Hi Marjan.  This bedside interview is a great reminder of the fact that John Connally had a near death experience and may not be the best witness in the world.  Someone told me a few months ago to completely ignore everything he said because he was too confused to be reliable and Nellie Connally had groomed him into believing what she heard which was two shots in quick succession with the first hitting JFK and the second hitting Connally.

On the other hand he did mention looking back at JFK which he definitely did do in the Zapruder film by frame Z275:


However, most people think he was hit by Z225 (Connally himself studied the Z-film for the Warren Commission and said he was hit by Z230).  I feel some of his statements ring true, but others are confused (such as he said he looked over to his left at JFK, when actually he looked over to his right).

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