The Bus Stop Farce

[Bill Brown]

Markham gets to the bus stop around 1:15 every day in time to catch the bus that stopped at Patton and Jefferson at 1:22.  If true on the afternoon of 11/22/63, his would have her arriving at Tenth and Patton around 1:13/1:14.

And.... I really doubt that the conversation between Oswald and Tippit lasted two minutes.

No, Markham said she catched the bus at 1.15. She did not estimate when she arrived at the bus stop! People don't normally arrive at the bus stop at the very moment the bus stops there.

And even if she arrived at the bus stop at 1.15, she still would have passed by 10th/Patton crossing before the shooting took place (assuming it took place at 1.14 or 1.15), as it took more than a minute to walk the distance between 10th and the bus stop on Jefferson.

And.... I really doubt that the conversation between Oswald and Tippit lasted two minutes.

Doesn't matter... It was an estimate. Even if it only took a minute all that means is that the shooting took place a minute sooner than 1.14.

No, Markham said she catched the bus at 1.15.

No, she didn't say that at all.

Ball asked his question in a strange way and none of us know Markham's understanding of the strange question when she answered it and therefore we can't know for sure what her answer of "1:15" meant.  Regardless, she did not say that she caught her bus at 1:15.

Since we know there was not a 1:15 bus, she cannot be saying (with accuracy) that she "catched the bus at 1:15" (as you've falsely attributed to her).

[Martin Weidmann]

No, she didn't say that at all.

Ball asked his question in a strange way and none of us know Markham's understanding of the strange question when she answered it and therefore we can't know for sure what her answer of "1:15" meant.  Regardless, she did not say that she caught her bus at 1:15.

Since we know there was not a 1:15 bus, she cannot be saying (with accuracy) that she "catched the bus at 1:15" (as you've falsely attributed to her).

You got me... Markham didn't use the word "catch". It was Ball who asked her when she usually got her bus.

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.

Same difference

In any event she most certainly did not say that she got to her bus stop around 1.15 (as you've falsely attributed to her)

[Bill Chapman]

@CTers: Keep estimating the time for another 58 years
Meanwhile, Oswald was ID'd at and near the scene

Unfair lineup or not:
Q: Why didn't Oswald ask for a jacket in the lineup?
A: Duh.

[Martin Weidmann]

@CTers: Keep estimating the time for another 58 years
Meanwhile, Oswald was ID'd at and near the scene

Unfair lineup or not:
Q: Why didn't Oswald ask for a jacket in the lineup?
A: Duh.

@CTers: Keep estimating the time for another 58 years

Unfortunately for you, it's no longer an estimate when it is corroborated by other evidence.

Meanwhile, Oswald was ID'd at and near the scene

All you've got is Markham's "was there a number 2"...

The other two witnesses who were in the best position to see or could have seen (and identify) the shooter were Domingo Benavides and T.F. Bowley. Both men did not attend the line up. Benavides said he couldn't be sure that he could identify the man and Bowley was completely ignored by law enforcement after he gave his affidavit.

And before you ask, we know that Bowley arrived at the crime scene just after the shooting and before Callaway got there. This means that Bowley either just missed the killer passing by or saw him leave 10th street in the direction of Callaway on Patton.

Unfair lineup or not:
Q: Why didn't Oswald ask for a jacket in the lineup?
A: Duh.

How in the world would you even know what Oswald asked for at the line up?

[Walt Cakebread]

@CTers: Keep estimating the time for another 58 years

Unfortunately for you, it's no longer an estimate when it is corroborated by other evidence.

Meanwhile, Oswald was ID'd at and near the scene

All you've got is Markham's "was there a number 2"...

The other two witnesses who were in the best position to see or could have seen (and identify) the shooter were Domingo Benavides and T.F. Bowley. Both men did not attend the line up. Benavides said he couldn't be sure that he could identify the man and Bowley was completely ignored by law enforcement after he gave his affidavit.

And before you ask, we know that Bowley arrived at the crime scene just after the shooting and before Callaway got there. This means that Bowley either just missed the killer passing by or saw him leave 10th street in the direction of Callaway on Patton.

Unfair lineup or not:
Q: Why didn't Oswald ask for a jacket in the lineup?
A: Duh.

How in the world would you even know what Oswald asked for at the line up?

Benavides said he couldn't be sure that he could identify the man

That's what the police said that Domingo Benavides said.....  BUT.... Benavides DID describe the killer.....And he DID NOT describe Lee Oswald.

Benavides described the man's hair as being cut totally different than Lee Oswald's ......

[John Mytton]

There is literally a MOUNTAIN of evidence that proves without any doubt that Oswald was at the Tippit crime scene and was carrying a Revolver, heck, even the shells seen dropped by Oswald at the Tippit crime scene were an exclusive match to Oswald's revolver.

The eyewitnesses who positively identified Oswald and confirmed he was carrying a gun

Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it

Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?
Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?

Mr. B.M. PATTERSON, 4635 Hartford Street, Dallas, Texas, currently employed by Wyatt's Cafeteria, 2647 South Lancaster, Dallas, Texas, advised he was present at the used car lot of JOHNNY REYNOLDS' on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.

PATTERSON advised that at approximately 1:30 PM, he was standing on JONNY REYNOLDS' used car lot together with L.J. LEWIS and HAROLD RUSSELL when they heard shots coming from the vicinity of 10th and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. A minute or so later they observed a white male approximately 30 years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying what appeared to be a revolver in his hand and was obviously trying to reload same while running.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand?
Mr.REYNOLDS. Very good.

HAROLD RUSSELL, employee, Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was standing on the lot of Reynolds Used Cars together with L.J. LEWIS and PAT PATTERSON, at which time they heard shots come from the vicinity of Patton and Tenth Street, and a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.

The Police Officers who were confronted with the murdering Oswald.

Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.

Oswald even admitted carrying his revolver.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any other conversation that you had with him, or not?
Mr. WALKER. No; he was just denying it, and he was saying that all he did was carry a gun, and the reason he fought back in the theatre is, he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun, and he had never been to jail.

Mr. BELIN. During the drive down from the Texas Theatre, to the police station, do you remember any conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. CARROLL. Some. He stated that he had not done anything that - he said, "Well, I was carrying a pistol, but that is all."

Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested.

Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.







JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

There is literally a MOUNTAIN of evidence that proves without any doubt that Oswald was at the Tippit crime scene and was carrying a Revolver, heck, even the shells seen dropped by Oswald at the Tippit crime scene were an exclusive match to Oswald's revolver.

The eyewitnesses who positively identified Oswald and confirmed he was carrying a gun

Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it

Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?
Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?

Mr. B.M. PATTERSON, 4635 Hartford Street, Dallas, Texas, currently employed by Wyatt's Cafeteria, 2647 South Lancaster, Dallas, Texas, advised he was present at the used car lot of JOHNNY REYNOLDS' on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.

PATTERSON advised that at approximately 1:30 PM, he was standing on JONNY REYNOLDS' used car lot together with L.J. LEWIS and HAROLD RUSSELL when they heard shots coming from the vicinity of 10th and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. A minute or so later they observed a white male approximately 30 years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying what appeared to be a revolver in his hand and was obviously trying to reload same while running.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand?
Mr.REYNOLDS. Very good.

HAROLD RUSSELL, employee, Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was standing on the lot of Reynolds Used Cars together with L.J. LEWIS and PAT PATTERSON, at which time they heard shots come from the vicinity of Patton and Tenth Street, and a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.

The Police Officers who were confronted with the murdering Oswald.

Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.

Oswald even admitted carrying his revolver.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any other conversation that you had with him, or not?
Mr. WALKER. No; he was just denying it, and he was saying that all he did was carry a gun, and the reason he fought back in the theatre is, he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun, and he had never been to jail.

Mr. BELIN. During the drive down from the Texas Theatre, to the police station, do you remember any conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. CARROLL. Some. He stated that he had not done anything that - he said, "Well, I was carrying a pistol, but that is all."

Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested.

Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.

JohnM

Johnny, you need to get a refresher course, as things have moved along far beyond the BS you are trying to peddle.

There is literally a MOUNTAIN of evidence that proves without any doubt that Oswald was at the Tippit crime scene

No, there isn't.

and was carrying a Revolver,

There is no dispute that Oswald was carrying a revolver when he was arrested at the Texas Theater. According to Fritz he admitted it. The only problem is he said he bought it at Fort Worth. Now why would he say that if it wasn't true? Do you really think he would be so stupid as to lie about something that was so easily checked?

On the other hand, as with many other items of the evidence, there is no legal chain of custody for the revolver now in evidence being the same one taken from Oswald.