The Bus Stop Farce

[Martin Weidmann]

There is no mention of CE 151 or any other shirt in Stombaugh's testimony

He wasn’t asked about CE 151. I would like to know whether or not CE 150 had all the different color fibers (including the ones in the photo identified as CE 151 in the table of contents) contained in its fabric.

He wasn't asked about CE 151 because he never examined it. Had he examined it and had he found fibers that matched the fibers found on the rifle, they would have asked him, don't you think?

I take it you're still clinging to the notion that fibers of CE 151 were fact found on the rifle, despite the fact that Stombaugh only examined CE 150? Really?

[Charles Collins]

He wasn't asked about CE 151 because he never examined it. Had he examined it and had he found fibers that matched the fibers found on the rifle, they would have asked him, don't you think?

I take it you're still clinging to the notion that fibers of CE 151 were fact found on the rifle, despite the fact that Stombaugh only examined CE 150? Really?

No clinging, your logic in this instance is probably good. But we still have the conflicting table of contents description.

And the fibers from CE 150 could have been on the rifle butt plate for an indefinite amount of time. And it is possible that the fabric of CE151 doesn’t shed as easily as CE 150. Or, if your contention is true, any of the fibers that might have been found on the rifle from CE 151 were simply left unidentified (due not having that shirt to compare them to).

The point is that the fiber evidence does not exclude CE 151 as the shirt worn by LHO on 11/22/63.

[Martin Weidmann]

No clinging, your logic in this instance is probably good. But we still have the conflicting table of contents description.

And the fibers from CE 150 could have been on the rifle butt plate for an indefinite amount of time. And it is possible that the fabric of CE151 doesn’t shed as easily as CE 150. Or, if your contention is true, any of the fibers that might have been found on the rifle from CE 151 were simply left unidentified (due not having that shirt to compare them to).

The point is that the fiber evidence does not exclude CE 151 as the shirt worn by LHO on 11/22/63.

But we still have the conflicting table of contents description.

I'll gladly leave that to you to resolve as for me it's a minor insignificant matter given Stombaugh's testimony

And the fibers from CE 150 could have been on the rifle butt plate for an indefinite amount of time.

Let's be precise here. You can not say that they are fibers from CE 150 as it is impossible to connect a fiber to a particular shirt. At best anyone can say is that the fibers are similar. Having said that, I am not sure if fibers could have been on that rifle for a long period of time, considering the fact that Oswald is supposed to have dismantled to rifle for transportation.

The point is that the fiber evidence does not exclude CE 151 as the shirt worn by LHO on 11/22/63.

Again, if fibers matching those of CE 151 were found on the rifle, we would have known about it. To me, it's a safe bet that only fibers matching those of CE 150 were found on the rifle. But you are correct, that does not exclude CE 151 as the shirt worn by Oswald on Friday morning.

However, as CE 151 was found at Lee's room at the rooming house, it does mean that Oswald changed his shirt, which is something the WC was not willing to say. I actually believe that, given the evidence as we now know it, CE 151 was indeed likely the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, but that does not mean he was wearing the same shirt the day before.

There is a good color picture of CE 151 (obtained from the National Archive) on Pat Speer's website;

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence

and having seen that, there is no way IMO that Frazier, in natural light, could have mistaken that shirt for a grey jacket. Even less so because in his testimony Frazier said the jacket he saw had a zipper. 

Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.

Btw, by saying that Oswald was wearing CE 151 on Friday morning, you are not only going against the WC's opinion, but you also destroy Bledsoe as a witness and, notwithstanding your speculation, leave the door wide open for the question to be asked why fibers matching those from CE 150 were found on the rifle when Oswald wasn't wearing CE 150 that Friday morning.

[Charles Collins]

But we still have the conflicting table of contents description.

I'll gladly leave that to you to resolve as for me it's a minor insignificant matter given Stombaugh's testimony

And the fibers from CE 150 could have been on the rifle butt plate for an indefinite amount of time.

Let's be precise here. You can not say that they are fibers from CE 150 as it is impossible to connect a fiber to a particular shirt. At best anyone can say is that the fibers are similar. Having said that, I am not sure if fibers could have been on that rifle for a long period of time, considering the fact that Oswald is supposed to have dismantled to rifle for transportation.

The point is that the fiber evidence does not exclude CE 151 as the shirt worn by LHO on 11/22/63.

Again, if fibers matching those of CE 151 were found on the rifle, we would have known about it. To me, it's a safe bet that only fibers matching those of CE 150 were found on the rifle. But you are correct, that does not exclude CE 151 as the shirt worn by Oswald on Friday morning.

However, as CE 151 was found at Lee's room at the rooming house, it does mean that Oswald changed his shirt, which is something the WC was not willing to say. I actually believe that, given the evidence as we now know it, CE 151 was indeed likely the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, but that does not mean he was wearing the same shirt the day before.

There is a good color picture of CE 151 (obtained from the National Archive) on Pat Speer's website;

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence

and having seen that, there is no way IMO that Frazier, in natural light, could have mistaken that shirt for a grey jacket.

Btw, by saying that Oswald was wearing CE 151 on Friday morning, you are not only going against the WC's opinion, but you also destroy Bledsoe as a witness and, notwithstanding your speculation, leave the door wide open for the question to be asked why fibers matching those from CE 150 were found on the rifle when Oswald wasn't wearing CE 150 that Friday morning.

Having said that, I am not sure if fibers could have been on that rifle for a long period of time, considering the fact that Oswald is supposed to have dismantled to rifle for transportation.

I cannot imagine that LHO would have dismantled the butt plate from the stock. And if the fibers were wedged between the butt plate and the wooden stock, they could have been there a long long time. (This is an argument that CTs have used against the fibers being evidence of LHO actually firing the weapon on 11/22/63.)



There is a good color picture of CE 151 (obtained from the National Archive) on Pat Speer's website;

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence

and having seen that, there is no way IMO that Frazier, in natural light, could have mistaken that shirt for a grey jacket.

Sorry, but that particular photo of CE 151 is black and white. So are two others in that group of photos. The color photo of CE 150 does show that orange-yellow is a likely color of fiber to come from it. So I am conceding that the table of contents is probably in error.

Mistaking the shirt for a jacket isn’t all about the color only. The argument against this idea now is that, when shown CE 162 Frazier testified that he never saw LHO wearing it. So the idea that he mistook the shirt as a jacket (that didn’t look like CE 162) becomes more likely.

[Martin Weidmann]

Having said that, I am not sure if fibers could have been on that rifle for a long period of time, considering the fact that Oswald is supposed to have dismantled to rifle for transportation.

I cannot imagine that LHO would have dismantled the butt plate from the stock. And if the fibers were wedged between the butt plate and the wooden stock, they could have been there a long long time. (This is an argument that CTs have used against the fibers being evidence of LHO actually firing the weapon on 11/22/63.)

I haven't used that argument because it is pure speculation either way. And it leads to nowhere because fibers can not be matched to a particular source. At best when can be said is that the fibers are similar and that doesn't prove much.

There is a good color picture of CE 151 (obtained from the National Archive) on Pat Speer's website;

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence

and having seen that, there is no way IMO that Frazier, in natural light, could have mistaken that shirt for a grey jacket.

Sorry, but that particular photo of CE 151 is black and white. So are two others in that group of photos. The color photo of CE 150 does show that orange-yellow is a likely color of fiber to come from it. So I am conceding that the table of contents is probably in error.

Mistaking the shirt for a jacket isn’t all about the color only. The argument against this idea now is that, when shown CE 162 Frazier testified that he never saw LHO wearing it. So the idea that he mistook the shirt as a jacket (that didn’t look like CE 162) becomes more likely.

Sorry, but that particular photo of CE 151 is black and white

No, the photo on Pat Speer's site I was talking about is in color and just underneath a black and white photo. Perhaps you should have scrolled a bit further down. There are also two pictures of the sleeves of CE 151. They are not the evidence photos, but photos made for Pat by the National Archive. You'll find them under the caption "Color Blind?

Mistaking the shirt for a jacket isn’t all about the color only. The argument against this idea now is that, when shown CE 162 Frazier testified that he never saw LHO wearing it. So the idea that he mistook the shirt as a jacket (that didn’t look like CE 162) becomes more likely.

I guess you missed it when I added this to my last post;

Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.

So, yes, Frazier testified he had never seen CE 162 and CE 163, but he did see that the jacket had a zipper and since we know Oswald had only two jackets, it could very well be that Frazier was mistaken when he said he had not seen either jacket before.

[Charles Collins]

I haven't used that argument because it is pure speculation either way. And it leads to nowhere because fibers can not be matched to a particular source. At best when can be said is that the fibers are similar and that doesn't prove much.

Sorry, but that particular photo of CE 151 is black and white

No, the photo on Pat Speer's site I was talking about is in color and just underneath a black and white photo. Perhaps you should have scrolled a bit further down. There are also two pictures of the sleeves of CE 151. They are not the evidence photos, but photos made for Pat by the National Archive. You'll find them under the caption "Color Blind?

Mistaking the shirt for a jacket isn’t all about the color only. The argument against this idea now is that, when shown CE 162 Frazier testified that he never saw LHO wearing it. So the idea that he mistook the shirt as a jacket (that didn’t look like CE 162) becomes more likely.

I guess you missed it when I added this to my last post;

Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.

So, yes, Frazier testified he had never seen CE 162 and CE 163, but he did see that the jacket had a zipper and since we know Oswald had only two jackets, it could very well be that Frazier was mistaken when he said he had not seen either jacket before.

No, the photo on Pat Speer's site I was talking about is in color and just underneath a black and white photo. Perhaps you should have scrolled a bit further down. There are also two pictures of the sleeves of CE 151. They are not the evidence photos, but photos made for Pat by the National Archive. You'll find them under the caption "Color Blind?

I finally found the color photos in the Color Blind section. FWIW: my wife is a lot better with colors than I am. Without knowing much of anything about the situation other than it involves the JFK assassination, she says that she believes fibers that could be described as orange-yellow in color could have come from either shirt. And it dawned on me that if Pat Speer's argument that the FBI was trying to show that LHO was wearing CE 150 during the shooting, they might have intentionally avoided bringing up the other fibers and clothing in the WC hearings. Here is an intriguing snippet from Pat Speer's web site:

At the end of the lab report on the shirt and fibers sent the Dallas FBI, an Addendum reads "You should attempt to obtain the remaining items of clothing suspect is believed to have worn during the shooting for comparisons with the other fibers found on the K1 gun." (FBI file 62-109060 Sec 21, p193). As we will see, although the FBI will eventually obtain the rest of Oswald's clothing, there is no record of further tests of Oswald's clothing against these "other" fibers.

Emphasis added by yours truly. At any rate it adds some intrigue and tempts me toward withdrawing my concession regarding the table of contents.


it could very well be that Frazier was mistaken when he said he had not seen either jacket before.


If Linnie Mae is to be believed, you have a point about CE 163.

[Martin Weidmann]

No, the photo on Pat Speer's site I was talking about is in color and just underneath a black and white photo. Perhaps you should have scrolled a bit further down. There are also two pictures of the sleeves of CE 151. They are not the evidence photos, but photos made for Pat by the National Archive. You'll find them under the caption "Color Blind?

I finally found the color photos in the Color Blind section. FWIW: my wife is a lot better with colors than I am. Without knowing much of anything about the situation other than it involves the JFK assassination, she says that she believes fibers that could be described as orange-yellow in color could have come from either shirt. And it dawned on me that if Pat Speer's argument that the FBI was trying to show that LHO was wearing CE 150 during the shooting, they might have intentionally avoided bringing up the other fibers and clothing in the WC hearings. Here is an intriguing snippet from Pat Speer's web site:

At the end of the lab report on the shirt and fibers sent the Dallas FBI, an Addendum reads "You should attempt to obtain the remaining items of clothing suspect is believed to have worn during the shooting for comparisons with the other fibers found on the K1 gun." (FBI file 62-109060 Sec 21, p193). As we will see, although the FBI will eventually obtain the rest of Oswald's clothing, there is no record of further tests of Oswald's clothing against these "other" fibers.

Emphasis added by yours truly. At any rate it adds some intrigue and tempts me toward withdrawing my concession regarding the table of contents.

it could very well be that Frazier was mistaken when he said he had not seen either jacket before.

If Linnie Mae is to be believed, you have a point about CE 163.

Without knowing much of anything about the situation other than it involves the JFK assassination, she says that she believes fibers that could be described as orange-yellow in color could have come from either shirt.

Your wife's expertise nothwithstanding, the fibers could actually have come from a multitude of other sources. The evidentiary value of fiber evidence is extremely limited.

And it dawned on me that if Pat Speer's argument that the FBI was trying to show that LHO was wearing CE 150 during the shooting, they might have intentionally avoided bringing up the other fibers and clothing in the WC hearings.

Does this mean that you consider it possible that the FBI manipulated evidence and sometimes withheld crucial information from the Warren Commission?

If Linnie Mae is to be believed, you have a point about CE 163.

And if Frazier's testimony is to be believed about the grey jacket he saw on Thursday evening having a zipper, where does that leave us with regard to Roberts's claim that Oswald left the rooming house wearing a darker than grey jacket?