The Bus Stop Farce

[Martin Weidmann]

Yes, it does say CE 151, but on the photos themselves all it says is C-11 (which later became CE 150). A typographical error is indeed the most likely explanation.

Unless you have more evidence than what we can see in the WC document, I submit that it is no more likely than the wrong item number being on the photo. The two shirts in question are still in evidence in the archives. So, there is a way to test them again and compare them to the photos.

And then you call me a contrarian!

Check the record. The FBI only tested one shirt. In this case CE 150, the shirt Oswald was arrested in.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Stombaugh, I hand you a photograph which is labeled on the bottom "C 11, Commission Exhibit 150." It is a color photograph of a brownish textured shirt, long-sleeved, with a hole in the right elbow, and I ask you whether you recognize the shirt that is pictured in that photograph?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, I do.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you see your mark anywhere on that?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, my mark is in red, initials "PMS" are in the collar of the shirt.

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Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive this shirt that is pictured in Exhibit 673, said shirt being Commission Exhibit 150?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. I received this shirt the same day I received the blanket, which was November 23, 1963, approximately 7:30 a.m.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you conduct an examination to determine the composition of this shirt?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, I did.

There is no mention of CE 151 or any other shirt in Stombaugh's testimony

The two shirts in question are still in evidence in the archives. So, there is a way to test them again and compare them to the photos.

You won't be able to get near enough to either shirt to do a test and comparing them against photos is a complete waste of time. Besides, Stombaugh's testimony is clear enough.

[Walt Cakebread]

I have to disagree, Walt. Ball showed her CE 150 which is in fact the arrest shirt. And that was actually the shirt they brought to her home. But you are right, she couldn't have seen the damage to the sleeve of that shirt on the bus, if Oswald was in fact wearing CE 151 that Friday morning. In her affidavit she only says that she saw Oswald get on and off the bus. There is no mention of the damaged sleeve.

However, in her testimony she says this;

Mr. BALL - When did you first notify the police that you believe you'd seen Oswald?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - When I got home, first thing I did I went next door and told them the President had been shot, and he said, "Why, he has got killed." Well, I turned on the radio--television--and we heard ambulances and going around and there was a little boy came in that room in the back and he turned it on, and we listened and hear about the President, only one I was interested in, so, he went on back to work and they kept talking about this boy Oswald and had on a brown shirt, and all of a sudden, well, I declare, I believe that this was this boy, and his name was Oswald---that is---give me his right name, you know, and so, about an hour my son came home, and I told him and he immediately called the police and told them, because we wanted to do all we could, and so, I went down the next night. He took me down, and I made a statement to them, what kind of---Secret Service man or something down there.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - At the police station.
Mr. BALL - Uh-huh. Now, did you ever see Oswald in a lineup?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No.
Mr. BALL - Never did see Oswald after he was arrested?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Not after he got off the bus; no.
Mr. BALL - But, you looked at the pictures of Oswald?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Showed you the pictures of Oswald?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - The man down at the police station, he had a picture of him with a gun, and said, "Do you recognize him?"
And I said, "Yes; it is Oswald." That is the one that I remember him.

It is somewhat convoluted, but I believe she is saying that she actually recognized Oswald by his name, which was mentioned on the television or radio. She then went down to the police station, where she was shown pictures of Oswald, and that's where she saw the brown shirt (with the damaged sleeve) he was arrested in.

After officers brought the arrest shirt to her home, prior to her testimony, she mixed the identification of Oswald by name with her seeing the damaged sleeve at her home into one (false) recollection of seeing the damaged sleeve on the bus.

It is somewhat convoluted, but I believe she is saying that she actually recognized Oswald by his name, which was mentioned on the television or radio. She then went down to the police station, where she was shown pictures of Oswald, and that's where she saw the brown shirt (with the damaged sleeve) he was arrested in.

After officers brought the arrest shirt to her home, prior to her testimony, she mixed the identification of Oswald by name with her seeing the damaged sleeve at her home into one (false) recollection of seeing the damaged sleeve on the bus.

Martin , I agree that Mrs Bledoe's statements are "convoluted" and a bit confused.  ( I believe that she had alzhiemer's)

However even though her statements leave much to be desired with regard to clarification, we can establish a few facts from her statements.   

Fact...."about an hour my son came home, and I told him and he immediately called the police and told them, because we wanted to do all we could, and so, I went down the next night. "

Bledsoe is referring to Saturday 11 /23/63 ......Where was the arrest shirt on Saturday 11/23/63? 

 Answer....The arrest shirt ( CE 150) was in the FBI lab in Wash. DC.

Question...Could Mrs Bledsoe have seen CE 150 on Saturday 11/23/63?

If She saw any shirt at the police station on 11/23/63 it had to have been CE 151 , which was the shirt with the hole in the right sleeve ( CE 151) and that was the shirt that Detective Potts found in Lee's dresser drawer at the rooming house. ( See Pott's exhibit)

There are several photos of Lee after he was dragged from the theater, which show the right sleeve of the shirt he was wearing when he was arrested, and there is NO HOLE in the elbow of that shirt.

[Martin Weidmann]

It is somewhat convoluted, but I believe she is saying that she actually recognized Oswald by his name, which was mentioned on the television or radio. She then went down to the police station, where she was shown pictures of Oswald, and that's where she saw the brown shirt (with the damaged sleeve) he was arrested in.

After officers brought the arrest shirt to her home, prior to her testimony, she mixed the identification of Oswald by name with her seeing the damaged sleeve at her home into one (false) recollection of seeing the damaged sleeve on the bus.

Martin , I agree that Mrs Bledoe's statements are "convoluted" and a bit confused.  ( I believe that she had alzhiemer's)

However even though her statements leave much to be desired with regard to clarification, we can establish a few facts from her statements.   

Fact...."about an hour my son came home, and I told him and he immediately called the police and told them, because we wanted to do all we could, and so, I went down the next night. "

Bledsoe is referring to Saturday 11 /23/63 ......Where was the arrest shirt on Saturday 11/23/63? 

 Answer....The arrest shirt ( CE 150) was in the FBI lab in Wash. DC.

Question...Could Mrs Bledsoe have seen CE 150 on Saturday 11/23/63?

If She saw any shirt at the police station on 11/23/63 it had to have been CE 151 , which was the shirt with the hole in the right sleeve ( CE 151) and that was the shirt that Detective Potts found in Lee's dresser drawer at the rooming house. ( See Pott's exhibit)

There are several photos of Lee after he was dragged from the theater, which show the right sleeve of the shirt he was wearing when he was arrested, and there is NO HOLE in the elbow of that shirt.

Bledsoe is referring to Saturday 11 /23/63 ......Where was the arrest shirt on Saturday 11/23/63? 

 Answer....The arrest shirt ( CE 150) was in the FBI lab in Wash. DC.

Question...Could Mrs Bledsoe have seen CE 150 on Saturday 11/23/63?

You are correct. She couldn't have seen CE 150 on that day and I don't think she did, because if she had she probably would have mentioned it in her affidavit.

If She saw any shirt at the police station on 11/23/63 it had to have been CE 151 , which was the shirt with the hole in the right sleeve ( CE 151) and that was the shirt that Detective Potts found in Lee's dresser drawer at the rooming house. ( See Pott's exhibit)

I don't think Bledsoe saw any shirt at the police station on 11/23/63. CE 151 was indeed found in Lee's room at the rooming house and Pat Speer seems to think that was the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, and I agree with him.

This of course provides us with an interesting conundrum because how could fibers matching the shirt Oswald was arrested in (CE 150) be found on the rifle, when Oswald was wearing CE 151 at the TSBD that morning?

There are several photos of Lee after he was dragged from the theater, which show the right sleeve of the shirt he was wearing when he was arrested, and there is NO HOLE in the elbow of that shirt.

I agree. But I have also seen close up photos from the sleeves of CE 151 (on Pat Speer's site)

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence

which show no hole in those sleeves either.

What is possible is that the shirt CE 150 got damaged while being tested by the FBI. In any event, as far as Bledsoe goes, I believe that the first time she saw a hole in the sleeve of CE 150 was when the shirt was brought out to her home.

[Walt Cakebread]

Bledsoe is referring to Saturday 11 /23/63 ......Where was the arrest shirt on Saturday 11/23/63? 

 Answer....The arrest shirt ( CE 150) was in the FBI lab in Wash. DC.

Question...Could Mrs Bledsoe have seen CE 150 on Saturday 11/23/63?

You are correct. She couldn't have seen CE 150 on that day and I don't think she did, because if she had she probably would have mentioned it in her affidavit.

I don't think Bledsoe saw any shirt at the police station on 11/23/63. CE 151 was indeed found in Lee's room at the rooming house and Pat Speer seems to think that was the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, and I agree with him.

This of course provides us with an interesting conundrum because how could fibers matching the shirt Oswald was arrested in (CE 150) be found on the rifle, when Oswald was wearing CE 151 at the TSBD that morning?

I agree. But I have also seen close up photos from the sleeves of CE 151 (on Pat Speer's site)

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence

which show no hole in those sleeves either.

What is possible is that the shirt CE 150 got damaged while being tested by the FBI. In any event, as far as Bledsoe goes, I believe that the first time she saw a hole in the sleeve of CE 150 was when the shirt was brought out to her home.

Pat Speer seems to think that was the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, and I agree with him.

This of course provides us with an interesting conundrum because how could fibers matching the shirt Oswald was arrested in (CE 150) be found on the rifle, when Oswald was wearing CE 151 at the TSBD that morning?

Pat Speer seems to think that was the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, and I agree with him.

No, Lee was not wearing CE 150 at the TSBD that morning ..... CE 150 was/is the arrest shirt.   CE 151 was the shirt that Lee wore at work that morning, and it is the shirt with the hole in the elbow that Detective Potts found in Lee's dresser drawer.

This of course provides us with an interesting conundrum because how could fibers matching the shirt Oswald was arrested in (CE 150) be found on the rifle, when Oswald was wearing CE 151 at the TSBD that morning?

BINGO!!.....  You win a Kewpie doll....   What we havvve heya is a failya of the FBI to cover theyya tracks..... Or more clearly, this is clear evidence that the FBI ( Hoover) was manipulating the evidence .

They said that they had found a tuft of fibers on the butt of the rifle that matched the ARREST SHIRT.....The ONLY way that tuft of fibers could have got on the shirt was AFTER both the shirt and the rifle were in the hands of the authorities.

 

[Charles Collins]

And then you call me a contrarian!

Check the record. The FBI only tested one shirt. In this case CE 150, the shirt Oswald was arrested in.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Stombaugh, I hand you a photograph which is labeled on the bottom "C 11, Commission Exhibit 150." It is a color photograph of a brownish textured shirt, long-sleeved, with a hole in the right elbow, and I ask you whether you recognize the shirt that is pictured in that photograph?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, I do.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you see your mark anywhere on that?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, my mark is in red, initials "PMS" are in the collar of the shirt.

<>

Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive this shirt that is pictured in Exhibit 673, said shirt being Commission Exhibit 150?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. I received this shirt the same day I received the blanket, which was November 23, 1963, approximately 7:30 a.m.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you conduct an examination to determine the composition of this shirt?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, I did.

There is no mention of CE 151 or any other shirt in Stombaugh's testimony

The two shirts in question are still in evidence in the archives. So, there is a way to test them again and compare them to the photos.

You won't be able to get near enough to either shirt to do a test and comparing them against photos is a complete waste of time. Besides, Stombaugh's testimony is clear enough.

There is no mention of CE 151 or any other shirt in Stombaugh's testimony

He wasn’t asked about CE 151. I would like to know whether or not CE 150 had all the different color fibers (including the ones in the photo identified as CE 151 in the table of contents) contained in its fabric.

[Martin Weidmann]

Pat Speer seems to think that was the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, and I agree with him.

This of course provides us with an interesting conundrum because how could fibers matching the shirt Oswald was arrested in (CE 150) be found on the rifle, when Oswald was wearing CE 151 at the TSBD that morning?

Pat Speer seems to think that was the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, and I agree with him.

No, Lee was not wearing CE 150 at the TSBD that morning ..... CE 150 was/is the arrest shirt.   CE 151 was the shirt that Lee wore at work that morning, and it is the shirt with the hole in the elbow that Detective Potts found in Lee's dresser drawer.

I think you are misreading what I wrote, because I actually agree with you and basically said the same thing

This of course provides us with an interesting conundrum because how could fibers matching the shirt Oswald was arrested in (CE 150) be found on the rifle, when Oswald was wearing CE 151 at the TSBD that morning?

BINGO!!.....  You win a Kewpie doll....   What we havvve heya is a failya of the FBI to cover theyya tracks..... Or more clearly, this is clear evidence that the FBI ( Hoover) was manipulating the evidence .

They said that they had found a tuft of fibers on the butt of the rifle that matched the ARREST SHIRT.....The ONLY way that tuft of fibers could have got on the shirt was AFTER both the shirt and the rifle were in the hands of the authorities.

I wonder why they never tested the shirt(s) for gunshot residue.

[Charles Collins]

This is weird. I am using Frazier's testimony on McAdams' site, which is supposed to be verbatim.
However, if you do a page search for 162 nothing comes up but 163 does.....

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazierb1.htm

Is McAdams site not complete?

The site I looked on is History Matters.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/html/WC_Vol2_0123b.htm


Compare the two if you wish.