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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 125971 times)

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #912 on: March 30, 2022, 09:43:56 PM »
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Willis has the 1st shot fired not earlier than Z205 which is the approximate verified time of his photo taken relative to the Z film location of the JFK limo.
Willis has the first shot fired not later than frame z202.  Frame z202 was exposed at the same time as Willis' photo #6 (slide #8) that he said was taken an instant after the first shot sounded. If he reacted as quickly as possible to the shot sound reaching him (100ms) and the bullet struck 200 feet from the muzzle (100 ms. after leaving the muzzle) and the sound (1130 fps) arrived 200/1130 = 177 ms. after the bullet left the muzzle), this would put the first shot fired 277 ms. before z202 was exposed .  That is 5 frames.  So this puts the trigger pull of the first shot NO LATER THAN z197. And this puts the bullet striking JFK 177 ms or a bit more than 3 frames before z202 was exposed
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 09:49:49 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #912 on: March 30, 2022, 09:43:56 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #913 on: April 04, 2022, 12:07:29 PM »
What is your evidence that a reflex reaction takes 440 ms. (8 x 55 ms) to move from the z224 position to the position in z232?  Keep in mind that the hand doesn't move that much - rather his left elbow rises and his torso slides down and forward.  In any event, that is plenty of time for the elbow to lift and the hand to change position slightly, let alone for the torso to drop a few inches.
Do you have evidence that increase in pressure over six inch long section of nerves in the brachial plexus can do this?  How much pressure?  Do you even have any evidence of the amount of pressure applied to those nerves during the passage of the bullet through the upper torso?  Do you have evidence as to how long such pressure must be applied before there is a response? 

That is why this is not evidence.  It is just a theoretical possibility without supporting evidence from which anyone could conclude that it could happen, let alone that it did.
What evidence is there that nerves were struck or damaged in JFK due to the passage of the back/neck bullet?

There's no point having this conversation. You deliberately "misunderstand" my point as it is yet another nail in the coffin of your own pet theory (which is now more nail than coffin).
Just to clarify for those who may read this thread and who don't already have an entrenched position/agenda that needs defending -
Take a minute to examine this picture:



Look at how extreme the posture is, how both elbows are extended to, what appears to be, their fullest extent. In the Z-film, the upper part of JFK's body noticeably stiffens for a moment as his arms shoot up. There are very few who would argue against this extreme movement/posture being a reaction to the throat shot.

The point being made is that 0.44 seconds before this image [not 0.33, as I incorrectly posted] JFK's left arm is down by his side:



What can explain, not just the incredible rapidity of the movement of his left arm from down by his side, but the extreme posture of his fully extended elbows?
The most coherent explanation is that this is a reflex reaction to being shot through the throat. But how would this explain the radical movement of the arms? This is explained by Artwohl and Strully:

“JFK’s reaction to the neck wound was, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous to the hit at Z-223/224. As the bullet passed through his neck, the pressure cavity caused an immediate and wide spread stimulation of all the nerves in the immediate vicinity, that is of the brachial plexus, the large group of nerves that emerge from C5-T1. These are the nerves that supply motor function to the arms.”

"Before all else, it is necessary to remember that this assassination reveals a sequence of neural responses initiated in the neck by the shock wave and cavitation induced by the bullet in its traverse of the neck.  This traumatized all structures in a 6 inch radius in all directions from the path of passage through the neck.  This spread of forces occurred in a fraction of a second, traumatizing all neural structures in the immediate vicinity within a fraction of a second as determined by the speed of the missile according to ballistic studies.
As a result, contraction of the muscles innervated by nerves closest to the bullet's path took place first; -- right deltoid, left deltoid, right biceps followed by the left biceps and sequential contraction of all muscles in the forearms, hands, chest, abdominal walls and paraspinal muscle groups, with muscles in the lower extremities, farthest from the shock wave, responding last.  All neural structures in the neck were stimulated at the same moment…”


It is no coincidence that the bullet passes through the Brachial Plexus, the nerves that supply motor function to the arms. To imagine the extremely rapid movement and radical posture of JFK's arms is caused by anything other than damage to the nerves of the Brachial Plexus seems unlikely, to say the least.



As far as Andrew's theory is concerned - a first shot at z195. As shown elsewhere in this thread, the first recorded reaction of JFK to being shot is z225, this accords perfectly with an "instantaneous" reflex reaction to a bullet passing through the Brachial Plexus at z223. However, a shot at z195 would require JFK to "wait" for more than one and a half seconds before the radical reaction we see recorded in the Z-film. This is an eternity in terms of reaction times to being shot and does not explain the extreme posture of JFK's extended elbows.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2022, 01:23:12 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #914 on: April 04, 2022, 03:37:02 PM »
There's no point having this conversation. You deliberately "misunderstand" my point as it is yet another nail in the coffin of your own pet theory (which is now more nail than coffin).
Just to clarify for those who may read this thread and who don't already have an entrenched position/agenda that needs defending -
Take a minute to examine this picture:



Look at how extreme the posture is, how both elbows are extended to, what appears to be, their fullest extent. In the Z-film, the upper part of JFK's body noticeably stiffens for a moment as his arms shoot up. There are very few who would argue against this extreme movement/posture being a reaction to the throat shot.

The point being made is that 0.44 seconds before this image [not 0.33, as I incorrectly posted] JFK's left arm is down by his side:



What can explain, not just the incredible rapidity of the movement of his left arm from down by his side, but the extreme posture of his fully extended elbows?
The most coherent explanation is that this is a reflex reaction to being shot through the throat. But how would this explain the radical movement of the arms? This is explained by Artwohl and Strully:

“JFK’s reaction to the neck wound was, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous to the hit at Z-223/224. As the bullet passed through his neck, the pressure cavity caused an immediate and wide spread stimulation of all the nerves in the immediate vicinity, that is of the brachial plexus, the large group of nerves that emerge from C5-T1. These are the nerves that supply motor function to the arms.”

"Before all else, it is necessary to remember that this assassination reveals a sequence of neural responses initiated in the neck by the shock wave and cavitation induced by the bullet in its traverse of the neck.  This traumatized all structures in a 6 inch radius in all directions from the path of passage through the neck.  This spread of forces occurred in a fraction of a second, traumatizing all neural structures in the immediate vicinity within a fraction of a second as determined by the speed of the missile according to ballistic studies.
As a result, contraction of the muscles innervated by nerves closest to the bullet's path took place first; -- right deltoid, left deltoid, right biceps followed by the left biceps and sequential contraction of all muscles in the forearms, hands, chest, abdominal walls and paraspinal muscle groups, with muscles in the lower extremities, farthest from the shock wave, responding last.  All neural structures in the neck were stimulated at the same moment…”


It is no coincidence that the bullet passes through the Brachial Plexus, the nerves that supply motor function to the arms. To imagine the extremely rapid movement and radical posture of JFK's arms is caused by anything other than damage to the nerves of the Brachial Plexus seems unlikely, to say the least.



As far as Andrew's theory is concerned - a first shot at z195. As shown elsewhere in this thread, the first recorded reaction of JFK to being shot is z225, this accords perfectly with an "instantaneous" reflex reaction to a bullet passing through the Brachial Plexus at z223. However, a shot at z195 would require JFK to "wait" for more than one and a half seconds before the radical reaction we see recorded in the Z-film. This is an eternity in terms of reaction times to being shot and does not explain the extreme posture of JFK's extended elbows.

Dan, If you are going to wrestle with a pig in the mud, always remember the pig likes it.

A lot of people on this forum have explained to Andrew over numerous years and in numerous ways the folly of this theory, yet here it still is. This is all about a proposed shot at Z250 or somewhere in that area that never happened.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #914 on: April 04, 2022, 03:37:02 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #915 on: April 04, 2022, 06:18:01 PM »
There's no point having this conversation. You deliberately "misunderstand" my point as it is yet another nail in the coffin of your own pet theory (which is now more nail than coffin).
I am not misunderstanding your point, deliberately or otherwise. You are saying that you can tell that JFK's reaction to being shot through the neck BEGINS after z224.  I am simply pointing out that you cannot see JFK before z224 so how do you know that he is not reacting there?  We can see his contorted face in z225 and that his hands have moved from the positions seen in z193 to those seen in z225.  You simply cannot say that the zfilm shows that he was not reacting before z224. You can try to reason, as you have, that what is seen after he emerges is the first reaction but it is not based on evidence. It is based on conjecture that JFK had to react that way within a few frames of being hit. 

Quote
As far as Andrew's theory is concerned - a first shot at z195. As shown elsewhere in this thread, the first recorded reaction of JFK to being shot is z225, this accords perfectly with an "instantaneous" reflex reaction to a bullet passing through the Brachial Plexus at z223. However, a shot at z195 would require JFK to "wait" for more than one and a half seconds before the radical reaction we see recorded in the Z-film. This is an eternity in terms of reaction times to being shot and does not explain the extreme posture of JFK's extended elbows.
BUT YOU CANNOT SEE JFK FROM Z207 TO Z224!!!  You want everyone to believe you can see that he is not reacting before z224!!  I understand your argument.  But it is not based on evidence. It is based on a theory that has no evidentiary support.  As far as JFK's reaction after being hit, I simply point out that the reaction depends on what JFK experienced. If he did not feel any pain or impact but just felt a growing sensation of loss of function, his reaction could have developed over a period of one second or so.  I also point out that you can see the beginning of a reaction with his hand movements before z207.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #916 on: April 04, 2022, 07:12:07 PM »
When I stub my toe, there's enough lapse to allow for a choice swear word before I feel the pain

 :D

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #916 on: April 04, 2022, 07:12:07 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #917 on: April 04, 2022, 07:56:37 PM »
A lot of people on this forum have explained to Andrew over numerous years and in numerous ways the folly of this theory, yet here it still is. This is all about a proposed shot at Z250 or somewhere in that area that never happened.
A lot of people on this forum have explained to Jack over numerous years and in numerous ways the folly of this theory that there were only two shots, yet here it still is. This is all about shots at Z223 and z313 but no shots in between.

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #918 on: April 04, 2022, 08:00:47 PM »
Dan, If you are going to wrestle with a pig in the mud, always remember the pig likes it.

A lot of people on this forum have explained to Andrew over numerous years and in numerous ways the folly of this theory, yet here it still is. This is all about a proposed shot at Z250 or somewhere in that area that never happened.

Dan, If you are going to wrestle with a pig in the mud, always remember the pig likes it.

 :D
Thanks Jack, for the strangest advice I've ever been given, but well put.

Andrew's theory, as I understand it, is a first shot at z195, a second shot at z271(ish) and a third shot at z312/3.
We both agree the first shot hits JFK but a shot as early as z195 has to be taken through the oak tree, which is a non-starter. There is no evidence from JFK's reactions that he is hit before he passes behind the Stemmons sign at z207. The idea that JFK would "wait" for over a second and a half before the incredibly rapid movement of his arms into the extreme position we see in the Z-film is also a non-starter.
A shot as early as z195 is also refuted by the witness testimony of the 10 occupants of the VP and VP follow-up cars who unanimously agree the first shot took place after both cars had completed the turn off Houston onto Elm Street. It is also notable that none of the Secret Service agents reacts to the very loud, "explosive" sound of the first shot before z207, yet three of them testify that they turned to their right rear immediately after hearing the shot (as seen in Altgens 6).

As for the shot around z271, that has been blown out of the water in a multitude of different ways in this thread.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #918 on: April 04, 2022, 08:00:47 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #919 on: April 04, 2022, 08:41:56 PM »
When I stub my toe, there's enough lapse to allow for a choice swear word before I feel the pain
Swearing could be a natural form of pain relief:

"Research into the hypoalgesic effect of swearing has shown that the use of profanity can help reduce the sensation of pain. This phenomenon is particularly strong in people who do not use such words on a regular basis.
...
The effect has been described as being a form of stress-induced analgesia, with swearing due to a painful stimulus being a form of emotional response.[2][3] However, it is as yet unclear how swearing achieves the physical effects that have been described in the research. Swearing in response to pain may activate the amygdala which in turn triggers a fight-or-flight response. This then leads to a surge in adrenaline, a natural form of pain relief"

Wikipedia: Hypoalgesic Effect of Swearing

But, you first have to experience pain and then you have to be able to swear.  Neither may have applied to JFK experiencing his neck wound.