The First Shot

[Dan O'meara]

So you agree that the movement of the right arm from the high position in z200 to the claw position seen in z225 is just a coincidence. 

There is a small but noticeable change in the orientation of the left hand.  Prior to the sign it appears to be relaxed and directed across his body. In z224 it is in a claw position pointing up and you can see his watch:
I doubt very much that the temporary cavity was much bigger than the bullet diameter.  The bullet went through the strap muscles of the upper back, which are very strong muscles because they control the head and keep it vertical.  One would need some evidence that a bullet through a body at this point will cause reflex movement of the arms.  I don't see any evidence of that. It is just a theory and without testing the theory it really doesn't amount to anything.

What a piss-poor response. I honestly don't know why you bothered.

"I doubt very much that the temporary cavity was much bigger than the bullet diameter."

 

Is that your expert opinion?

"One would need some evidence that a bullet through a body at this point will cause reflex movement of the arms."

Then one should read my posts.

[Andrew Mason]

What a piss-poor response. I honestly don't know why you bothered.

So, then I don't know why you can't answer it.  You can't see the difference in his hand positions between z200 and z224, including his left hand?

"I doubt very much that the temporary cavity was much bigger than the bullet diameter."

Is that your expert opinion?

Experts have to persuade non-experts, like judges.  Your model and theory is not persuasive for a number of reasons.  A recognized ballistics expert, Vincent DiMaio's (Gunshot Wounds, Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics and Forensic Techniques, 1999 at Ch. 3) says:

"The size of both the temporary and the permanent cavities is determined not only by the amount of kinetic energy deposited in the tissue but also by the density and elastic cohesiveness of the tissue."

DiMaio shows that the temporary cavity of a jacketed bullet starts being confined to the matter very close to the bullet path and increases with bullet yaw. A non-jacketed bullet that expands on impact transfers more energy on entry than a jacketed bullet.  He provides a profile of the temporary cavities from different bullets:


"A full metal jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to yaw. At this time, the bullet’s cross-sectional area will become larger, and the drag force will be increased. The result is an increase in kinetic energy loss and thus an increase in the diameter of the temporary cavity (Figure 3.2A). "

You want us to believe that your video of a bullet passing through ballistic gel represents the path of a 6.5 mm jacketed bullet would do when passing near JFK's thoracic spine about an inch after entering.  Your video looks nothing like the path of a jacketed rifle bullet in the first profile in DiMaio's drawing Fig. 3.2

Your theory seems to be that the bullet created enormous lateral force between the bullet path and the nerves exiting the spine at T1-T2, which is maybe an inch into the body at that point.  The 6.5 mm round nose bullet is very stable and the entry wound shows no signs of yaw.  You need to show that the lateral force near the bullet entry point would displace the spinal nerves located about an inch away.

"One would need some evidence that a bullet through a body at this point will cause reflex movement of the arms."

Then one should read my posts.

As I said, this is all good theory.  It just needs some empirical evidence to support it. 

[Dan O'meara]

So, then I don't know why you can't answer it.  You can't see the difference in his hand positions between z200 and z224, including his left hand?

Answer what?
That JFK's right hand is moving between z200 and z224?
Of course it is, I've never said it's not. I've made it specifically clear I was talking about his left arm but you started going on about his right hand waving because you don't know what else to do.

Experts have to persuade non-experts, like judges.  Your model and theory is not persuasive for a number of reasons.  A recognized ballistics expert, Vincent DiMaio's (Gunshot Wounds, Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics and Forensic Techniques, 1999 at Ch. 3) says:

"The size of both the temporary and the permanent cavities is determined not only by the amount of kinetic energy deposited in the tissue but also by the density and elastic cohesiveness of the tissue."

DiMaio shows that the temporary cavity of a jacketed bullet starts being confined to the matter very close to the bullet path and increases with bullet yaw. A non-jacketed bullet that expands on impact transfers more energy on entry than a jacketed bullet.  He provides a profile of the temporary cavities from different bullets:


"A full metal jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to yaw. At this time, the bullet’s cross-sectional area will become larger, and the drag force will be increased. The result is an increase in kinetic energy loss and thus an increase in the diameter of the temporary cavity (Figure 3.2A). "

You neglected to mention this paragraph which you must have read as it's just before the ones you've posted:

"The picture is radically different in the case of a high-velocity rifle bullet.
As the bullet enters the body, there is a “tail splash,” or backward hurling of
injured tissue. This material may be ejected from the entrance. The bullet
passes through the target, creating a large temporary cavity whose maximum
diameter is up to 11 to 12.5 times the diameter of the projectile."

Every diagram Di Maio has drawn shows cavitation many times wider than the path of the bullet.
Thank you for providing evidence to support my argument.

You want us to believe that your video of a bullet passing through ballistic gel represents the path of a 6.5 mm jacketed bullet would do when passing near JFK's thoracic spine about an inch after entering.  Your video looks nothing like the path of a jacketed rifle bullet in the first profile in DiMaio's drawing Fig. 3.2

Your theory seems to be that the bullet created enormous lateral force between the bullet path and the nerves exiting the spine at T1-T2, which is maybe an inch into the body at that point.  The 6.5 mm round nose bullet is very stable and the entry wound shows no signs of yaw.  You need to show that the lateral force near the bullet entry point would displace the spinal nerves located about an inch away.

What nerves exiting the spine between T2 and T2?
Who mentioned nerves exiting the spine between T1 and T2?

"...which is maybe an inch into the body at that point."

What ??

As I said, this is all good theory.  It just needs some empirical evidence to support it.

Would empirical evidence include the position of the wound on JFK's upper back/lower neck?
Would it include the fact the bullet traversed his body through the Brachial Plexus?
Would it include the fact the nerves of the Brachial Plexus supply the motor functions of the arms/hands?
Would it include the fact that cavitation occurs?
Would it include the extreme and unbelievably rapid of JFK's reactions as captured in the Z-film?

If not, what kind of empirical evidence are you after?

[Andrew Mason]

Answer what?
That JFK's right hand is moving between z200 and z224?

I said that both hands move and change orientation between z200 and z224. So you are attributing that to simple coincidence. You don't seem to want to admit that this is necessarily what you are saying.

You neglected to mention this paragraph which you must have read as it's just before the ones you've posted:

"The picture is radically different in the case of a high-velocity rifle bullet.
As the bullet enters the body, there is a “tail splash,” or backward hurling of
injured tissue. This material may be ejected from the entrance. The bullet
passes through the target, creating a large temporary cavity whose maximum
diameter is up to 11 to 12.5 times the diameter of the projectile."

Which, he goes on to explain, develops as the bullet yaws. How much did this bullet yaw in passing through the first inch or so of JFK's back/neck? Did it yaw much at all anywhere in his body? The WC ballistics scientists didn't think so.

Every diagram Di Maio has drawn shows cavitation many times wider than the path of the bullet.
Thank you for providing evidence to support my argument.

Many times? You have to quantify that. Is it twice the diameter? 3 times? Not much more than that initially, judging by the diagram if the maximum is 11-12.5 times.

You are saying that the temporary cavity after travelling about an inch into JFK's back was large enough to jolt the nerves exiting the spine.  That requires a cavity extending at least an inch outward from the bullet. That's a cavity with a diameter of 50 mm or about 8 times the diameter of the bullet. If the maximum is around 11 to 12.5  times when the bullet is going sideways, how do you get that large a cavity?

What nerves exiting the spine between T2 and T2?
Who mentioned nerves exiting the spine between T1 and T2?

"...which is maybe an inch into the body at that point."

What ??

Would empirical evidence include the position of the wound on JFK's upper back/lower neck?
Would it include the fact the bullet traversed his body through the Brachial Plexus?
Would it include the fact the nerves of the Brachial Plexus supply the motor functions of the arms/hands?
Would it include the fact that cavitation occurs?
Would it include the extreme and unbelievably rapid of JFK's reactions as captured in the Z-film?

If not, what kind of empirical evidence are you after?

First of all, one could measure the pressure around the bullet path of a 6.5 mm bullet passing through similar biological material as a function of distance from the bullet track and distance along the track. One could then measure the pressure required to excite the nerves near the neck. From that one could the see whether it is even possible to stimulate those nerves from a bullet passing near them and, if so, quantify how close it would have to be and how far along the path it would have to be.

[Dan O'meara]

I said that both hands move and change orientation between z200 and z224. So you are attributing that to simple coincidence. You don't seem to want to admit that this is necessarily what you are saying.
Which, he goes on to explain, develops as the bullet yaws. How much did this bullet yaw in passing through the first inch or so of JFK's back/neck? Did it yaw much at all anywhere in his body? The WC ballistics scientists didn't think so.
Many times? You have to quantify that. Is it twice the diameter? 3 times? Not much more than that initially, judging by the diagram if the maximum is 11-12.5 times.

You are saying that the temporary cavity after travelling about an inch into JFK's back was large enough to jolt the nerves exiting the spine.  That requires a cavity extending at least an inch outward from the bullet. That's a cavity with a diameter of 50 mm or about 8 times the diameter of the bullet. If the maximum is around 11 to 12.5  times when the bullet is going sideways, how do you get that large a cavity?

First of all, one could measure the pressure around the bullet path of a 6.5 mm bullet passing through similar biological material as a function of distance from the bullet track and distance along the track. One could then measure the pressure required to excite the nerves near the neck. From that one could the see whether it is even possible to stimulate those nerves from a bullet passing near them and, if so, quantify how close it would have to be and how far along the path it would have to be.

The argument I'm putting forward is extremely simple.
It is an explanation for the unbelievably rapid movement of JFK's left arm
In z224 his left arm is down by his side:



Six Z-frames later (z232) his left arm has extended upwards to a very extreme position:



This movement takes place in approximately 0.33 seconds - one third of a second.
In one third of a second JFK's left arm has gone from a resting position down by his side to a position where his left elbow is extended upwards to, what appears to be, it's fullest extent.
The rapidity of this movement is indicative of a reflex reaction to a stimulus of the nerves controlling the function of the arms. These nerves are collectively known as the Brachial Plexus. It is no coincidence that the bullet which passes through JFK, passes through the Brachial Plexus at the approximate position represented in this graphic by the red dot:



Artwohl makes the following point:

“JFK’s reaction to the neck wound was, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous to the hit at Z-223/224. As the bullet passed through his neck, the pressure cavity caused an immediate and wide spread stimulation of all the nerves in the immediate vicinity, that is of the brachial plexus, the large group of nerves that emerge from C5-T1. These are the nerves that supply motor function to the arms.”

The measurable, extremely rapid movement of JFK's left arm is evidence the nerves of the Brachial Plexus were damaged by a bullet that passed through this large group of nerves. This damage may have been caused by the bullet itself, severing  a nerve, and the effect of cavitation, which may have contributed to further stimulation of the nerves.

[Andrew Mason]

The argument I'm putting forward is extremely simple.
It is an explanation for the unbelievably rapid movement of JFK's left arm
In z224 his left arm is down by his side:



Six Z-frames later (z232) his left arm has extended upwards to a very extreme position:



This movement takes place in approximately 0.33 seconds - one third of a second.
In one third of a second JFK's left arm has gone from a resting position down by his side to a position where his left elbow is extended upwards to, what appears to be, it's fullest extent.
The rapidity of this movement is indicative of a reflex reaction to a stimulus of the nerves controlling the function of the arms.

What is your evidence that a reflex reaction takes 440 ms. (8 x 55 ms) to move from the z224 position to the position in z232?  Keep in mind that the hand doesn't move that much - rather his left elbow rises and his torso slides down and forward.  In any event, that is plenty of time for the elbow to lift and the hand to change position slightly, let alone for the torso to drop a few inches.

These nerves are collectively known as the Brachial Plexus. It is no coincidence that the bullet which passes through JFK, passes through the Brachial Plexus at the approximate position represented in this graphic by the red dot:

Do you have evidence that increase in pressure over six inch long section of nerves in the brachial plexus can do this?  How much pressure?  Do you even have any evidence of the amount of pressure applied to those nerves during the passage of the bullet through the upper torso?  Do you have evidence as to how long such pressure must be applied before there is a response? 

That is why this is not evidence.  It is just a theoretical possibility without supporting evidence from which anyone could conclude that it could happen, let alone that it did.

Artwohl makes the following point:

“JFK’s reaction to the neck wound was, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous to the hit at Z-223/224. As the bullet passed through his neck, the pressure cavity caused an immediate and wide spread stimulation of all the nerves in the immediate vicinity, that is of the brachial plexus, the large group of nerves that emerge from C5-T1. These are the nerves that supply motor function to the arms.”

The measurable, extremely rapid movement of JFK's left arm is evidence the nerves of the Brachial Plexus were damaged by a bullet that passed through this large group of nerves. This damage may have been caused by the bullet itself, severing  a nerve, and the effect of cavitation, which may have contributed to further stimulation of the nerves.

What evidence is there that nerves were struck or damaged in JFK due to the passage of the back/neck bullet?

[Steve Barber]

This film with synchronized sound also shows the crowd of witnesses running up the knoll--

 No civilians ran up the knoll until after DPD Officer Haygood followed the order given over the police radio by Chief Curry to "Get men on top of that over-underpass-see what happened up there.  Go up up to that overpass!".  Haygood is clearly shown traveling down Elm Street in the Thomas Atkins film, and suddenly turn his motorcycle to his right, preparing to dismount and follow the order by Curry.  The Robert Hughes film then captures him dismounted and in his first steps away from his motorcycle and begins to enter the knoll.  Not one person is on the knoll until after he's nearly reached the underpass.  People were not running up the knoll because they thought the shots came from there, they ran there because a police officer ran there.  The majority of that crowd rushing up there are people who lined Main and Houston Streets along with some of the few who were in the plaza. There weren't many people in the plaza until AFTER the shooting. The Malcolm Couch and Jimmy Darnell films both prove this.   

[John Tonkovich]

Dan, the diagram map that was posted by Andrew Mason shows a red LOS line going thru the tree at Z195😳

If there are ONLY 3 shots and the 1st shot is a hit at 195 as theorized, and hits ONLY JFK then the 2nd shot that hits Connaly defacto must be at approx z223-225 as it’s quite apparent that Connalys right shoulder is being abruptly rotated counterclockwise.

I’m dubious of 2 separate shots fired unless someone has some evidence of an suppressed shot fired which of course means 2 shooters at least.

And the tree is an obstacle that the SE window shooter is very likely aware of so even if it can be proved that the leaves were less dense in 63 , it’s stiil questionable to choose to take a shot between z186-z210 when the tree branches are an obstruction rather than taking a shot just prior to it just afterwards when there is a clear LOS.

The trajectory for the single shot hitting both JFK and Connolly does NOT have to be a perfect straight line.

There is possibility of slight deflections possible for a bullet going thru 2human bodies.

The only problem really is the apparent anomaly of the insignificant amount of deformation of CE 399.

Willis has the 1st shot fired not earlier than Z205 which is the approximate verified time of his photo taken relative to the Z film location of the JFK limo.

I’m considering the idea also of the3rd shot missed fired 0.5 sec AFTER 313 head shot because my theory is that a semi auto rifle was used and that the shooter after seeing his 1st shot not the kill shot desired, took another 4.8 secs to carefully aim and then squeezed off 2 shots in rapid succession.

The 3rd /last shot was a miss because of muzzle rise just enough that caused that shot to hit the curb near Tague.

The questionable chain of handling of CE399 and how it was “found” and the presence of metallic element uncharacteristic of MC bullet found in the curb section suggest a different type bullet was fired.

" the tree branches are an obstruction"
"Willis...Z205"