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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 122110 times)

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #440 on: December 03, 2020, 03:04:53 AM »
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Why would either a lone gunman or a 2nd gunman take a shot after 313?

Would it not be quite apparent to the one (or both) observing the target in their scope or iron sights, that the head is nearly completely destroyed?

rusty barrel MC rifle with defective scope impossible to align unless shim used after rescrewiimg the mount to the stock, Suggests this rifle was planted before the shooting and never actually fired

What purpose to do this, as it seems rather pointless?

One possibility might be a shooter who was an CIA operative who was got left for dead at the Bay of Pigs.

This shooter was an enraged individual who vowed not just to terminate JFK but make him suffer pain just before finishing him off with a head shot

The shooter used a semi auto rifle with accurate scope and made his 1st shot approx 223 purposely aiming at the back of JFK in order to inflict a moment of severe pain

The shooter could have then immediately fired a 2nd and 3td shot in 2 secs, but instead, he waited a full 4.8 secs, carefully keeping his scope on the head of JFK as the shooter sadistically enjoyed those few seconds knowing the agony of pain that JFK must have been suffering at that point

The shooter then fired his final kill shot by rapid firing 2 shots in about 1.5 secs

The 2nd shot hit the skull at Z312-313

The 3rd shot right immediately followed but went slightly high due to muzzle rise , and flew just over the windshield to strike the curb near James Teague

All the bullets fired by the lone gunman using a semi auto rifle (7.62mm?). were comical shaped FMG type this necessitating the replacement with CE 399 and placing MC 6.5 mm fragments underneath Mrs Connallys seat in the limo.

The point of pre planting the MC rusty barrel rifle was to make a final statement of mockery , perhaps implicate Oswald as a traitor and or informant

This shooter would have had to use an elevator to descend from 6th floor to 1st floor, as he Would have been by Mrs Garner on the 4th floor if he had used the staircase.

This leaves Jack Dougherty as a prime suspect, either aiding the shooter or Jack being the shooter himself, UNLESS, JD was actually on the 7th floor sleeping when shots were fired and Jack stayed on the 7th floor for hiding for awhile (otherwise would’ve been seen by the 3 amigos huddling on the 5th floor, or by Mrs Garner, or by Truly/Baker when they arrived on the 7th floor.
... so how, exactly did he find Oswald, a person who unbeknownst to him had used his gun in a previous assassination attempt? And how did he persuade Oswald to bring his gun to work, then leave, get his gun and shoot officer Tippett... and trust that he would not talk?

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #440 on: December 03, 2020, 03:04:53 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #441 on: December 04, 2020, 05:01:43 PM »
For what it is worth:

Harry McCormick, the legendary crime reporter for the Dallas Morning News, writes (in his notes written four months after the assassination per his editor’s request):

One of the first persons I ran into was Abraham Zapruder. He was obviously highly agitated, almost weeping.

“I saw it all through my camera,” he half sobbed to himself. I stopped him and without identifying myself I asked him questions. “I got it all on film,” he said. “There were three shots. Two hit the President and the other Gov. Connelly. I know the President is dead for his head seemed to fly to pieces when he was hit the second time.



Looking at the televised interview with Zapruder done only a short while later, he is unsure whether or not there were two or three shots. This is the first time that I have seen a quote of Zapruder that appears to be definite regarding the number of shots. If Harry McCormick had not put those words in quotation marks, I would probably guess that McCormick had used the generally accepted view of that point in time. But it appears that this is a verbatim quote of Abraham Zapruder. And I find that interesting because I was under the impression that Zapruder was always unsure about the number of shots.

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #442 on: December 04, 2020, 05:35:05 PM »
For what it is worth:

Harry McCormick, the legendary crime reporter for the Dallas Morning News, writes (in his notes written four months after the assassination per his editor’s request):

One of the first persons I ran into was Abraham Zapruder. He was obviously highly agitated, almost weeping.

“I saw it all through my camera,” he half sobbed to himself. I stopped him and without identifying myself I asked him questions. “I got it all on film,” he said. “There were three shots. Two hit the President and the other Gov. Connelly. I know the President is dead for his head seemed to fly to pieces when he was hit the second time.



Looking at the televised interview with Zapruder done only a short while later, he is unsure whether or not there were two or three shots. This is the first time that I have seen a quote of Zapruder that appears to be definite regarding the number of shots. If Harry McCormick had not put those words in quotation marks, I would probably guess that McCormick had used the generally accepted view of that point in time. But it appears that this is a verbatim quote of Abraham Zapruder. And I find that interesting because I was under the impression that Zapruder was always unsure about the number of shots.
And we also had Zapruder's secretary, Marilyn Sitzman, who was holding on to his legs as he was on the pedestal or column or whatever it was. She too said she heard only two shots. Here she is in an interview with Josiah Thompson.

Sitzman: ....There was nothing unusual [happening] until the first sound, which I thought was a firecracker, mainly because of the reaction of President Kennedy. He put his hands up to guard his face and leaned to the left, and the motorcade, you know, proceeded down the hill. And the next thing that I remembered correct ... clearly was the shot that hit him directly in front of us, or almost directly in front of us, that hit him on the side of his fa ... [sic]

And this:
Sitzman: And as far as the sound of the shots go, the first one, as I said, sounded like a firecracker, and the second one that I heard sounded the same, because I recall no difference whatsoever in them. And I'm sure that if the second shot would have come from a different place -- and the supposed theory is they would have been much closer to me and on the right side -- I would have heard the sounding of the gun much closer, and I probably had a ringing in my head because the fence was quite close to where we were standing, very close. Ah, it just sounded the same way.

Two shots. As I said earlier, it'll drive you nuts trying to figure out why some heard two shots and others three. I guess some were focusing so much on seeing JFK and the crowds were so loud that they didn't notice it or distinguish it from the background noise.


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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #442 on: December 04, 2020, 05:35:05 PM »


Offline Pat Speer

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #443 on: December 04, 2020, 06:11:55 PM »
And we also had Zapruder's secretary, Marilyn Sitzman, who was holding on to his legs as he was on the pedestal or column or whatever it was. She too said she heard only two shots. Here she is in an interview with Josiah Thompson.

Sitzman: ....There was nothing unusual [happening] until the first sound, which I thought was a firecracker, mainly because of the reaction of President Kennedy. He put his hands up to guard his face and leaned to the left, and the motorcade, you know, proceeded down the hill. And the next thing that I remembered correct ... clearly was the shot that hit him directly in front of us, or almost directly in front of us, that hit him on the side of his fa ... [sic]

And this:
Sitzman: And as far as the sound of the shots go, the first one, as I said, sounded like a firecracker, and the second one that I heard sounded the same, because I recall no difference whatsoever in them. And I'm sure that if the second shot would have come from a different place -- and the supposed theory is they would have been much closer to me and on the right side -- I would have heard the sounding of the gun much closer, and I probably had a ringing in my head because the fence was quite close to where we were standing, very close. Ah, it just sounded the same way.

Two shots. As I said earlier, it'll drive you nuts trying to figure out why some heard two shots and others three. I guess some were focusing so much on seeing JFK and the crowds were so loud that they didn't notice it or distinguish it from the background noise.

When one studies the witness statements in total, it's clear some (such as Zapruder) heard the last two shots bang-bang, and realized this meant more than one shooter, and thereby removed this second sound from their recollections, or said they weren't sure about it.

Abraham Zapruder stood on a pedestal in the arcade on the North side of Elm. (11-22-63 notes of Dallas Times Herald reporter Darwin Payne, from his reporter's notebook on display in Dallas' Old Red Museum, as quoted by Jim Schutze in The Dallas Observer, 4-28-11, and as supplemented by Gus Russo in Where Were You, 2013. These notes were purportedly written shortly after the shooting, after Payne arrived in the Plaza, was told Zapruder had filmed the shooting, and tracked Zapruder down at his office in the Dal-Tex Building.) "'I got film,' he said. 'I saw it hit him in head. They were going so fast. He slumped over with the first shot. With the first shot, he bent over and grabbed. Second two shots hit him in head. It opened up. Couldn't be alive. She was beside him. After last shot she crawled over back of car." (11-22-63 notes of an unknown reporter, possibly Darwin Payne, or possibly someone at the paper writing down what Payne had reported over the phone after talking to Zapruder. These notes were found in the files of the Dallas Times Herald, and quoted in Pictures of the Pain, p. 149, published 1998) “Abraham Zapruder…heard 3 shots///after first one Pres slumped over grabed stomac…hit in stomac…two more shots///looked like head opened up and everything came out…blood spattered everywhere…side of his face…looked like blobs out of his temple… forehead… Jackie first reached over to the Pres. And after second shot…she crawled over to back of car…after that she was lying…” (March-May 1964 memo written for the Dallas Morning News by newsman Harry McCormick, in which McCormick's recollections of 11-22-63 were recorded for posterity, as published in JFK Assassination: The Reporters' Notes, 2013) "One of the first persons I ran into was Abraham Zapruder. He was obviously highly agitated, almost weeping. 'I saw it all through my camera,' he half-sobbed to himself. I stopped him and without identifying myself I asked him a question. 'I got it all on film,' he said. 'There were three shots. Two hit the president and the other Gov. Connally. I know the president is dead for his head seemed to fly to pieces when he was hit the second time.'" (11-22-63 interview on WFAA, at approximately 2:10 PM) “as I was shooting, as the President was coming down from Houston Street making his turn, it was about a half-way down there, I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two, and I saw his head practically open up, all blood and everything, and I kept on shooting.” (Volunteering, moments later) "As I explained before, it was a sickening scene. At first I thought perhaps it was a...it sounded like somebody making a joke, y'know, a shot and somebody grabbing their stomach." (9:55 PM 11-22-63, memo of SS Agent Max Phillips accompanying a copy of the Zapruder film) “According to Mr. Zapruder, the position of the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder.”

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #444 on: December 04, 2020, 06:21:53 PM »
Two shots. As I said earlier, it'll drive you nuts trying to figure out why some heard two shots and others three. I guess some were focusing so much on seeing JFK and the crowds were so loud that they didn't notice it or distinguish it from the background noise.
It may have been due to the lack of a distinct separation between the last two shots, which many people recalled as being close together.  Mary Woodward said this in an interview recorded for the pseudo-documentary "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" released 1988:

“One thing I am totally positive about in my own mind is how many shots there were. And there were three shots. The second two shots were immediate. It was almost as if one were an echo of the other. They came so quickly the sound of one did not cease until the second shot. With the second and third shot I did see the president being hit. I literally saw his head explode. ”.   

[There was a clip of this on Youtube but I couldn't find it when I looked today.]

It is possible that with some witnesses who were focused on doing something at the time may have subconsciously regarded the last two shots as one shot. 

I regard Marilyn Sitzman deserving as much credit for the Zapruder film as Zapruder himself.  She was the reason he was there with his camera - at her insistence he ran home an hour before the motorcade arrived at Dealey Plaza and fetched his camera.  She helped him pick out the spot to film and she helped keep him steady the whole time he was filming.  I wonder if she or her estate received any of the $16 million the government paid for it.

Regarding Mary Woodward, it is interesting that she thought, and still thinks, apparently, that the second shot hit JFK.  To my knowledge no one has ever asked her if she is aware that JFK was reacting to the neck wound 5 seconds before the head shot. 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 06:28:02 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #444 on: December 04, 2020, 06:21:53 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #445 on: December 04, 2020, 08:28:07 PM »
The Connally’s accounts of the three shots differ substantially. The following is from Wikipedia, the numbered references link to their Warren Commission testimonies (if you go to the Wikipedia article).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-bullet_theory

Governor Connally, riding in the middle jump seat of the President's limousine in front of the President, recalled hearing the first shot which he immediately recognized as a rifle shot. He said he immediately feared an assassination attempt and turned to his right to look back to see the President. He looked over his right shoulder but did not catch the President out of the corner of his eye so he said he began to turn back to look to his left when he felt a forceful impact to his back. He stated to the Warren Commission: "I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." He looked down and saw that his chest was covered with blood and thought he had been fatally shot. Then he heard the third and final shot, which sprayed blood and brain tissue over them.[42]

Nellie Connally said she heard the first shot and saw President Kennedy with his hands at his neck reacting to what she later realized was his neck wound. After the first shot, she heard her husband yell, "Oh, no, no, no" and turn to his right (away from her). Then she heard a second shot, which hit her husband. She saw him recoil away from her and saw that he was hit. She immediately reached over and pulled him toward her into her arms and lay backward. Then she heard the third and final shot. Mrs. Connally said she never looked into the back seat of the car after her husband was shot.[43]



In my opinion, the key is the timing of JBC yelling “Oh, no, no, no.” He is the one who yelled it so I believe that I have to give his testimony more weight (than Mrs. Connally’s testimony) regarding the timing of this yell. He specifically says that he yelled it immediately after he was hit. A look at the Zapruder frames shows him appearing to start yelling this by about Z236 (possibly before that but definitely discernible by then). Z236 is only 7/10 of a second Z223 at a rate of 18.3 frames per second. That is a reasonable time for a reaction to being shot, (first realizing it, and then beginning to yell). And it is understandable that JBC would consider this 7/10 of a second as being immediately.

JBC and his wife rejected the SBT (apparently based on her memory regarding the second shot timing). But it seems clear to me that his testimony is the correct one due to the above and the other persuasive evidence cited by the WC and HSCA investigations.

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #446 on: December 04, 2020, 08:44:30 PM »
Regarding Mary Woodward, it is interesting that she thought, and still thinks, apparently, that the second shot hit JFK.  To my knowledge no one has ever asked her if she is aware that JFK was reacting to the neck wound 5 seconds before the head shot.

Mrs. Woodward passed away 2017. Since you're referring to the Z220s, she noticed the President slump at that moment, which by her reckoning means the second shot. The first shot, she said, did not strike the President.

Now go back to cherry-picking pictures of the President leaning away from the car rail. :D

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #446 on: December 04, 2020, 08:44:30 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #447 on: December 04, 2020, 11:32:40 PM »
This is not a criticism of your graphics, which you do really well, but the arm and chest position does not look natural and does not look like the photos.  This photo taken on Houston Street shows a more natural position that is not have his armpit was pressed against the side of the car



Kennedy is leaning to camera-right and Connally is leaning to camera-left. Almost like they're in front of each other (for a brief instance).

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as you are assuming:

I guess I assume my models are reasonably accurate, though I'm a novice compared to a professional. Where the photo-matches end up is governed by what will be. Given the yahoos in the US, I would be just as happy to disprove the SBT and find a conspiracy. But proving your Theory is coming up dry.

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Also:  you have to get the right distance between JFK's neck exit wound and JBC's spine. His spine was not pressed against the back of the jump seat.

Those 3D figure models weren't actually modeled from Connally's body. The seatback was cushioned and I wouldn't be surprised if it had a bit of give to it. You seem hung up on the jumpseat locations, but it's the positions of the (mostly) head and shoulders we see in the photos that determine where they are in the model. Would be nice if I got the jump-seats perfect but my ruler and I haven't flown down to the Henry Ford.

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The distance between the neck exit wound and JBC's spine was more like 36 inches, based on the Croft photo:



To the spine I get 27". I must be doing something wrong. ???



Show us, Professor Ludwig, how to increase the distance between Kennedy and Connally.

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The Powers film shows JFK and JBC from the rear and has JFK's shoulder inside the car:



Wow. When Kennedy turned sharply towards his left, his shoulder moved away from the car rail. But I think he's not looking to his left as he approaches the sign in the Zapruder film.



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Something must have changed in the relative position of the two men after that for the trajectory through JFK's neck to get close to JBC's right armpit.  [Note: the lighter area between JFK and Jackie appears to be the bouquet of yellow roses but the white spot just above that could be JBC's stetson - resting on his left knee?]You should estimate the range of error or uncertainty on the right/left position of JFK. The minimum is 7.5 inches and that has his right armpit right against the side (Canning measured the spine to armpit distance to be 20 cm = 7.9 inches on JBC).  As explained above, there is also some uncertainty in the distance from JFK's exit wound to JBC's spine.  It is at least 24 inches to the plane of the jump seat.

On the Hess & Eisenhardt scale drawing at 6 HSCA 50 the right jump seat is 2.5 inches from the side of the door which is about 1 inch further inside the car than the panel beside JFK. That makes 3.5 inches. But when I measure it, it appears to be 5 inches.  The seat itself is shown as 20.5 inches wide so by that the middle of the jump seat would be 15.25 inches farther inside the car than the interior side wall beside JFK.

If you then assume just 30 inches between JFK's exit wound and JBC's spine, the bullet moves 30 tan(15) = 8 inches farther left. That puts it 18 inches left of the side wall using my 10 inch side wall to JFK midline figure. That is 2.75 inches left of JBC's turned spine. It could be a bit more. But even using your 7.5 inches for JFK's midline from the right side, that puts the bullet passing to the left side of JBC's spine by 1/4 of an inch.

He's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.