The First Shot

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Offline Ray Mitcham

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #539 on: January 26, 2021, 10:23:46 AM »
How anybody can mistake what both John Connolly and Mrs Connolly said is beypond me. Both said that Connolly was hit by the second bullet.

Governor Connally. (To the Warren Commission)

Governor CONNALLY. We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.
We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.
So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.


Mrs Connolly.

“Mrs. CONNALLY. In fact the receptions had been. so good every place that I had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before.
I could resist no longer. When we got past this area I did turn to the President and said, "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you."
Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right.
I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.
Mr. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.
Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John.[Connolly] As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John [JKF] saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John,[Connolly] and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."

Jack, you have misunderstood what she said. When Mrs Connolly said "John said Oh,no,no," she meant John Kennedy not her husband. After she heard these words a "a second shot and it hit John (Connolly). The words "Oh,no,no,no..." were said after the first shot and before John Connolly was shot. It is unfortunate that both men hit were named John.. (that causes the confusion) but easy to understand if you follow what Mrs Connolly was saying.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 10:33:30 AM by Ray Mitcham »

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #540 on: January 26, 2021, 11:13:46 AM »

Another choice. It is when JBC first realizes he has been hit. Reagan did not know he had been shot until he was on his way to the hospital. The bullet was a half of an inch from his heart. Also remember JBC never heard a third shot. Both Nellie and Jackie place it before a second shot.

Just to clarify - JBC doesn't hear the bullet that hits him. He assumes it's a second shot as he distinctly remembers hearing a first shot, which he is confident didn't hit him, so assumes there must have been a second shot that he didn't hear.
I think this is a really important point particularly as, like many witnesses, he describes the sound of the shots as being "very loud" -

"It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear."

I'm sure there are theories why JBC would hear the first shot and not hear the shot that struck him but I'm unaware of them. I've no doubt it's the usual baloney.
It is also important to note the emphasis that JBC puts on the time difference between hearing the first shot and being aware he himself is shot -

Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?

Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle.

JBC, a man seemingly familiar with guns and rifles, describes the gap in time between hearing the first shot and being aware that he is hit, as similar to the time gap between the shots of an automatic rifle. Is this less than one second? - a "very, very brief span of time."
The following is lifted from the Pat Speers website -

(12-13-63 FBI report on a 12-11 interview, CD188, p. 3-5) "When Governor Connally was asked about the elapsed time between the first and last shot he remarked “Fast, my God it was fast. It seemed like a split second. Just that quick” and he snapped his fingers three times rapidly to illustrate the time and said “unbelievably quick…"

It seems highly probable that the first shot heard by JBC hit him and that he didn't become consciously aware of being shot for a "split second". Indeed, if z234 represents the moment he first became aware of being shot I would argue he is responding to being hit 0.6 seconds earlier - literally a split second. JBC is constantly emphasising this "unbelievably quick" gap between the two events and we can say with some certainty that two initial shots fired so close together didn't actually happen.
I would argue JBC is shot at z223 and becomes aware of it @ z234
It may be no more than coincidence but Connally is asked to mark on a survey plat of Dealey Plaza where he thought the limo was at the time of the first shot. Pat Speer produced the following graphic to illustrate JBC's choice (the blue circle):




Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #541 on: January 26, 2021, 12:37:22 PM »
Just to clarify - JBC doesn't hear the bullet that hits him. He assumes it's a second shot as he distinctly remembers hearing a first shot, which he is confident didn't hit him, so assumes there must have been a second shot that he didn't hear.
I think this is a really important point particularly as, like many witnesses, he describes the sound of the shots as being "very loud" -

"It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear."

I'm sure there are theories why JBC would hear the first shot and not hear the shot that struck him but I'm unaware of them. I've no doubt it's the usual baloney.
It is also important to note the emphasis that JBC puts on the time difference between hearing the first shot and being aware he himself is shot -

Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?

Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle.

JBC, a man seemingly familiar with guns and rifles, describes the gap in time between hearing the first shot and being aware that he is hit, as similar to the time gap between the shots of an automatic rifle. Is this less than one second? - a "very, very brief span of time."
The following is lifted from the Pat Speers website -

(12-13-63 FBI report on a 12-11 interview, CD188, p. 3-5) "When Governor Connally was asked about the elapsed time between the first and last shot he remarked “Fast, my God it was fast. It seemed like a split second. Just that quick” and he snapped his fingers three times rapidly to illustrate the time and said “unbelievably quick…"

It seems highly probable that the first shot heard by JBC hit him and that he didn't become consciously aware of being shot for a "split second". Indeed, if z234 represents the moment he first became aware of being shot I would argue he is responding to being hit 0.6 seconds earlier - literally a split second. JBC is constantly emphasising this "unbelievably quick" gap between the two events and we can say with some certainty that two initial shots fired so close together didn't actually happen.
I would argue JBC is shot at z223 and becomes aware of it @ z234
It may be no more than coincidence but Connally is asked to mark on a survey plat of Dealey Plaza where he thought the limo was at the time of the first shot. Pat Speer produced the following graphic to illustrate JBC's choice (the blue circle):



It was postulated by someone once that JBC never felt the full impact of the wound until he took his first breath. Given the injuries to his chest I thought that was a very good explanation.

There is ample evidence to explain why JBC never heard the shot. It was because there was never was a shot to be heard by him. It also was not heard by the other occupants of the car. Greer is a two shot witness right up until he goes in front of the WC. Kellerman, when the flurry of shots nonsense is removed by Specter and the WC members, places the headshot as taking place with the second shot. A number of the Secret Service stated or described there was only two shots.

On the plane back to Dallas an argument took place between reporters Charles Roberts of Newsweek, the Secret Service Agents , other passengers, and Merriman Smith of UPI about the number of shots. Smith's bulletin was read by Cronkite which is the genesis of three shots having been fired.

The actual evidence points to there only having been two shots. The vast majority of the eyewitnesses near the car or the snipers nest initially stated there was only two shots. The realistic number of shots that could have been fired within the 6 second time frame is that there was only time to fire two shots. The early missed shot is nothing but an attempt to increase the time frame to fire three shots and the theory does not have one valid piece of evidence or witness support to validate it.

There is only evidence of two bullets. The three shells found in the SN indicate there was only two of the shells with the chambering mark or indentation on the side of the shell. CE 543 lacks the mark and has numerous other marks indicating it was dryfired in the gun. The chambering mark on CE 544 is more pronounced than on CE 545 indicating CE545 was fired first. The reason the chambering mark is so important is it shows up on CE141 the unfired cartridge. An expanded chamber due to heat is the only explanation for this mark to show up on an unfired cartridge. Josiah Thompson stated in Six Seconds in Dallas that the chambering mark is present on the 30+ fired shells he viewed while photographing the life magazine article in the mid 60's.


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #542 on: January 26, 2021, 12:49:55 PM »
How anybody can mistake what both John Connolly and Mrs Connolly said is beypond me. Both said that Connolly was hit by the second bullet.

Governor Connally. (To the Warren Commission)

Governor CONNALLY. We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.
We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.
So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.


Mrs Connolly.

“Mrs. CONNALLY. In fact the receptions had been. so good every place that I had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before.
I could resist no longer. When we got past this area I did turn to the President and said, "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you."
Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right.
I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.
Mr. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.
Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John.[Connolly] As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John [JKF] saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John,[Connolly] and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."

Jack, you have misunderstood what she said. When Mrs Connolly said "John said Oh,no,no," she meant John Kennedy not her husband. After she heard these words a "a second shot and it hit John (Connolly). The words "Oh,no,no,no..." were said after the first shot and before John Connolly was shot. It is unfortunate that both men hit were named John.. (that causes the confusion) but easy to understand if you follow what Mrs Connolly was saying.


"Jack, you have misunderstood what she said. When Mrs Connolly said "John said Oh,no,no," she meant John Kennedy not her husband. After she heard these words a "a second shot and it hit John (Connolly). The words "Oh,no,no,no..." were said after the first shot and before John Connolly was shot. It is unfortunate that both men hit were named John.. (that causes the confusion) but easy to understand if you follow what Mrs Connolly was saying."

JFK was shot in the throat. Nelly specifically states he made no noise. She also specifically stated JBC cried out before the second shot.

Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right.
I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.
Mr. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.[u][/u]

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #543 on: January 26, 2021, 01:41:05 PM »
It was postulated by someone once that JBC never felt the full impact of the wound until he took his first breath. Given the injuries to his chest I thought that was a very good explanation.

There is ample evidence to explain why JBC never heard the shot. It was because there was never was a shot to be heard by him. It also was not heard by the other occupants of the car. Greer is a two shot witness right up until he goes in front of the WC. Kellerman, when the flurry of shots nonsense is removed by Specter and the WC members, places the headshot as taking place with the second shot. A number of the Secret Service stated or described there was only two shots.

On the plane back to Dallas an argument took place between reporters Charles Roberts of Newsweek, the Secret Service Agents , other passengers, and Merriman Smith of UPI about the number of shots. Smith's bulletin was read by Cronkite which is the genesis of three shots having been fired.

The actual evidence points to there only having been two shots. The vast majority of the eyewitnesses near the car or the snipers nest initially stated there was only two shots. The realistic number of shots that could have been fired within the 6 second time frame is that there was only time to fire two shots. The early missed shot is nothing but an attempt to increase the time frame to fire three shots and the theory does not have one valid piece of evidence or witness support to validate it.


Except that over 160 of just over 200 witnesses in Dealey Plaza who reported on the shooting reported hearing three shots.
I agree the early missed shot is nonsense and have argued that point extensively in this thread.
To be honest, I'm not really interested in a third shot as the model I'm presenting works perfectly well with just two but I can't ignore those sort of numbers when it comes to witnesses reporting the same detail.

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #544 on: January 26, 2021, 07:14:22 PM »
Except that over 160 of just over 200 witnesses in Dealey Plaza who reported on the shooting reported hearing three shots.
I agree the early missed shot is nonsense and have argued that point extensively in this thread.
To be honest, I'm not really interested in a third shot as the model I'm presenting works perfectly well with just two but I can't ignore those sort of numbers when it comes to witnesses reporting the same detail.

Two shots is hard to accept, because given all the hype surrounding the assassination for almost six decades, it is a let down to realize LHO fired just two shots and it was game over. The rest is just a lot of meaningless facts and conjectures. There very well could have been a conspiracy, but LHO was not part of it.

Something to consider on the 160 three shot witnesses. The tally all depends on the point of view of the person evaluating the various statements. 50 or 60 of the witnesses have the second shot as the head shot or the second and third shot so close together it sounded like one shot. A lot of these witnesses gave multiple statements and it depends on which one is favored. One fact is that very few maybe 10 or 15 actually have an evenly spaced shot sequence which is required for the carcano to have been able to produce three shots in 5.5 seconds with a 2.3  second cycle time. That is the  origination of the theory of an early missed shot which added time trying to explain that witness phenomenon of shots two and three being closer together. Both the WC and the HSCA mentioned in their summaries the media influence on inflating the number of shots the witnesses recalled. Obviously they were aware of its consequences.

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #545 on: January 26, 2021, 08:07:16 PM »

I'm sure there are theories why JBC would hear the first shot and not hear the shot that struck him but I'm unaware of them. I've no doubt it's the usual baloney.
At 275 feet from the muzzle, the bullet takes t = d/v = 275/2000 = .1375 seconds (137.5 ms) to arrive and the sound takes 275/1127 = .2440 sec. (244 ms) ms. So he feels the impact and over 100 ms. before the sound wave front reaches his ears (the sound lasting afterward for several hundred ms if not more).  So for JBC to be capable of hearing the shot he would have to maintain auditory brain function for several hundred milliseconds after sustaining a traumatic injury.  Do you know for a fact that the auditory brain function continues after being shot like that?

If not, we have only JBC's evidence to go by, which is that he felt the impact and saw that he had been shot but did not recall hearing the sound of the shot.  That indicates that his auditory brain function either temporarily not functioning or not registering in his conscious mind due to the trauma of being shot.

Quote
It is also important to note the emphasis that JBC puts on the time difference between hearing the first shot and being aware he himself is shot -

Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?

Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle.

JBC, a man seemingly familiar with guns and rifles, describes the gap in time between hearing the first shot and being aware that he is hit, as similar to the time gap between the shots of an automatic rifle. Is this less than one second? - a "very, very brief span of time."
You are assuming that JBC was hit by the first shot!!  He said he was not because he was able to turn to his right and look back to check on JFK. Nellie said he turned around and uttered "Oh, no, no, no" after the first shot and that the second shot hit him in the back as he was turned around to the right. (JBC thought he had turned back before he was hit but the fact is he never turns back to the left before he falls back on his wife).

Quote
The following is lifted from the Pat Speers website -

(12-13-63 FBI report on a 12-11 interview, CD188, p. 3-5) "When Governor Connally was asked about the elapsed time between the first and last shot he remarked “Fast, my God it was fast. It seemed like a split second. Just that quick” and he snapped his fingers three times rapidly to illustrate the time and said “unbelievably quick…"

It seems highly probable that the first shot heard by JBC hit him and that he didn't become consciously aware of being shot for a "split second". Indeed, if z234 represents the moment he first became aware of being shot I would argue he is responding to being hit 0.6 seconds earlier - literally a split second. JBC is constantly emphasising this "unbelievably quick" gap between the two events and we can say with some certainty that two initial shots fired so close together didn't actually happen.
I would argue JBC is shot at z223 and becomes aware of it @ z234
It may be no more than coincidence but Connally is asked to mark on a survey plat of Dealey Plaza where he thought the limo was at the time of the first shot. Pat Speer produced the following graphic to illustrate JBC's choice (the blue circle):


The Connallys' selection of z234 as the point where he was hit is interesting as is his WC testimony.  We do not know what frames were made available to him to examine.   In the end, JBC's opinion was based on his belief at the time that he was hit while facing forward. But he was never asked to explain why he told Dr. Shires in the hospital a few days after being shot that he was turned to his right when he was hit.  Nellie was never questioned on why she had said the same thing to Dr. Shires (6 H 108):

  • Dr. SHIRES. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned
    to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened
    to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot,
    turned to his right, and then was hit.
    I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers
    turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot
    about that.
    Mr. SPECTER. When did Governor Connally tell you that?
    Dr. SHIRES. Oh, several days later.
    Mr. SPECTER. While he was in the hospital?
    Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes 4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the events.

And there is some corroboration that he was turned right when hit.  Dr. Shires stated that the injury to the dorsal side of the wrist was explained if it was made by a bullet exiting his chest if he had turned to his right when hit because the wrist pronates (turns) when the torso/shoulders turn (6 H 111):

  • Mr. SPECTER. In what position would the wrist have had to be in, in order
    to have the same bullet make all three wounds?
    Dr. SHIRES. The main point was that his arm be up here. In other words,
    in some fashion, however his hand happened to be turned, but he had to have
    his right arm raised up, next to his chest.
    Mr. SPECTER. His wrist would have to be up with the palm down, would it
    not?
    Dr. SHIRES. As depicted here.
    Mr. SPECTER. In order for the point of entry to be on the dorsal side?
    Dr. SHIRES. That’s right, again, which makes it a little more likely he was
    turning, since ordinarily you pronate your wrist as you turn, whereas, this
    would have been a little strange for him to have been sitting like this, but
    again, depending on what he had in his hand. It’s just a question of which
    side is up.