The First Shot

[Dan O'meara]

At 275 feet from the muzzle, the bullet takes t = d/v = 275/2000 = .1375 seconds (137.5 ms) to arrive and the sound takes 275/1127 = .2440 sec. (244 ms) ms. So he feels the impact and over 100 ms. before the sound wave front reaches his ears (the sound lasting afterward for several hundred ms if not more).  So for JBC to be capable of hearing the shot he would have to maintain auditory brain function for several hundred milliseconds after sustaining a traumatic injury.  Do you know for a fact that the auditory brain function continues after being shot like that?

"Do you know for a fact that the auditory brain function continues after being shot like that? "

Why should it stop?
What evidence do you have it stops? And while we're at it, you made this assertion a few posts ago:

"Where is the contradiction between Nellie and JBC? Both said that she pulled him down and said repeatedly "be still". Both said that occurred before and after the head shot."

I asked you for corroboration of this claim and you just blanked it. Could you corroborate such claims please or if it's stuff you're just making up could you clarify that also. Thanks

What evidence do you have the auditory brain function ceases after being shot?

If not, we have only JBC's evidence to go by, which is that he felt the impact and saw that he had been shot but did not recall hearing the sound of the shot.  That indicates that his auditory brain function either temporarily not functioning or not registering in his conscious mind due to the trauma of being shot.

I'll need some kind of evidence for this baloney, otherwise we'll go with the common sense explanation - there was no second shot to hear. JBC became aware of being shot a split second after it had happened. His memory of the event is not a video. It does not have the absolute reliability you attribute to it.
I'm also surprised you're not questioning this rapid two shot scenario as it refutes your own model.

You are assuming that JBC was hit by the first shot!!

I'm not just assuming it!
The previous pages in which I've presented argument after argument are demonstrating JBC was hit by the first shot.

He said he was not because he was able to turn to his right and look back to check on JFK.

Please give the frame in the Z-film where JBC is trying to "check on JFK".

Nellie said he turned around and uttered "Oh, no, no, no" after the first shot and that the second shot hit him in the back as he was turned around to the right.

This has been refuted a few posts ago (#615) but you just sail on right through as if nothing's happened.
Brilliant 

(JBC thought he had turned back before he was hit but the fact is he never turns back to the left before he falls back on his wife).

Wow. You seem to be suggesting JBC might have 'misremembered' the event.

The Connallys' selection of z234 as the point where he was hit is interesting as is his WC testimony.  We do not know what frames were made available to him to examine.   In the end, JBC's opinion was based on his belief at the time that he was hit while facing forward. But he was never asked to explain why he told Dr. Shires in the hospital a few days after being shot that he was turned to his right when he was hit.

I get the impression you haven't read any of the last few posts.
JBC states unequivocally that he was turned slightly to the left when he was hit (even though he was, in fact, facing right).
Did you read the Life article you posted where JBC identifies z234 as the moment he was hit? It's quite interesting.
 

• Dr. SHIRES. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned
  to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened
  to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot,
  turned to his right, and then was hit.
  I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers
  turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot
  about that.
  Mr. SPECTER. When did Governor Connally tell you that?
  Dr. SHIRES. Oh, several days later.
  Mr. SPECTER. While he was in the hospital?
  Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes 4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the events.
  

And there is some corroboration that he was turned right when hit.  Dr. Shires stated that the injury to the dorsal side of the wrist was explained if it was made by a bullet exiting his chest if he had turned to his right when hit because the wrist pronates (turns) when the torso/shoulders turn (6 H 111):

• Mr. SPECTER. In what position would the wrist have had to be in, in order
  to have the same bullet make all three wounds?
  Dr. SHIRES. The main point was that his arm be up here. In other words,
  in some fashion, however his hand happened to be turned, but he had to have
  his right arm raised up, next to his chest.
  Mr. SPECTER. His wrist would have to be up with the palm down, would it
  not?
  Dr. SHIRES. As depicted here.
  Mr. SPECTER. In order for the point of entry to be on the dorsal side?
  Dr. SHIRES. That’s right, again, which makes it a little more likely he was
  turning, since ordinarily you pronate your wrist as you turn, whereas, this
  would have been a little strange for him to have been sitting like this, but
  again, depending on what he had in his hand. It’s just a question of which
  side is up.

Thank you for confirming JBC was turned to his right when hit.
Precisely as I'm arguing.

[Andrew Mason]

"Do you know for a fact that the auditory brain function continues after being shot like that? "

Why should it stop?

I don't know.  Perhaps his brain was overwhelmed with information coming from other parts of his body at that instant in time just after he was hit.  All we know is that JBC said he was hit by it but did not hear it.  What evidence do you have that JBC was making that up, that he really heard it and recalled hearing it?

What evidence do you have it stops?

There are not a large number of witnesses to draw from - ie those who get shot in the chest by a distant rifle shot and survive.  So all I have is JBC and the well known sniper adage "if you hear the shot you were not the target". The facts are that JBC said he felt but did not hear the shot that hit him in the back, that he heard the first shot but that he did not feel it hit him, and that he heard and felt the effects of the third shot (brain material covering them).  What evidence do you have that he heard the second shot?  If he was hit by the first shot in the back, why did he not mention that he heard a shot afterward that was other than the one that caused the spray of brain matter on him?

And while we're at it, you made this assertion a few posts ago:

"Where is the contradiction between Nellie and JBC? Both said that she pulled him down and said repeatedly "be still". Both said that occurred before and after the head shot."

I asked you for corroboration of this claim and you just blanked it. Could you corroborate such claims please or if it's stuff you're just making up could you clarify that also. Thanks

I am not sure what you mean by corroboration. The fact that both said it in their testimony is established by the WC transcripts. You don't need corroboration for that. The zfilm shows Nellie leaning forward as if to speak to JBC just before the head shot. Both said that she said it over and over after the head shot.  What corroboration are you looking for?

What evidence do you have the auditory brain function ceases after being shot?

I'll need some kind of evidence for this baloney, otherwise we'll go with the common sense explanation - there was no second shot to hear. JBC became aware of being shot a split second after it had happened. His memory of the event is not a video. It does not have the absolute reliability you attribute to it.
I'm also surprised you're not questioning this rapid two shot scenario as it refutes your own model.

Are you saying that there were only two shots then?
 

I'm not just assuming it!
The previous pages in which I've presented argument after argument are demonstrating JBC was hit by the first shot.

Please give the frame in the Z-film where JBC is trying to "check on JFK".

z250-270.

Wow. You seem to be suggesting JBC might have 'misremembered' the event.

I get the impression you haven't read any of the last few posts.
JBC states unequivocally that he was turned slightly to the left when he was hit (even though he was, in fact, facing right).

That appears to be his belief in April 1964.  But in November 1963 a few days after the events, he told Dr. Shaw and Dr. Shires that he was turned to the right when he was hit.

Did you read the Life article you posted where JBC identifies z234 as the moment he was hit? It's quite interesting.
 
Thank you for confirming JBC was turned to his right when hit.
Precisely as I'm arguing.

If the second shot was the head shot, perhaps you could explain:

1. why JBC suddenly starts sailing forward from z272-278
2. why his hat changes position in his hand between z271 and z272
3. why Greer said he turned to look back immediately after the second shot and saw JBC falling back onto his wife. This occurs from z278-290
4. why JFK's hair flies from z273-275 but no one else's hair moves.  According to Hickey, this occurs at the time of the second shot just before the head shot.

[Dan O'meara]

I don't know.  Perhaps his brain was overwhelmed with information coming from other parts of his body at that instant in time just after he was hit.

You come up with some baloney about why he didn't hear the shot that hit him and when questioned about just say "Don't know" and then continue to waffle the same baloney:
"Perhaps his brain was overwhelmed with information coming from other parts of his body..."
You're just making things up. What kind of debate is this? Perhaps pixies sprinkled pixy-dust on his dreams and that's why he didn't hear the shot that hit him ( )

All we know is that JBC said he was hit by it but did not hear it.  What evidence do you have that JBC was making that up, that he really heard it and recalled hearing it?

How can I provide evidence of someone making something up?
I don't think JBC is making anything up but I don't know that for a fact.

There are not a large number of witnesses to draw from - ie those who get shot in the chest by a distant rifle shot and survive.  So all I have is JBC and the well known sniper adage "if you hear the shot you were not the target". The facts are that JBC said he felt but did not hear the shot that hit him in the back, that he heard the first shot but that he did not feel it hit him, and that he heard and felt the effects of the third shot (brain material covering them).  What evidence do you have that he heard the second shot?  If he was hit by the first shot in the back, why did he not mention that he heard a shot afterward that was other than the one that caused the spray of brain matter on him?

This is quite garbled but I'll try and work through it:

I ask, "What evidence do you have that the auditory brain function stops after being shot?
You answer, "if you hear the shot you were not the target"
Utter garbage.

"What evidence do you have that he heard the second shot?"

I'm not sure what you mean. Aren't you arguing that he didn't hear the second shot?
In terms of testimonial evidence JBC is consistent in terms of the time gap between hearing the shot and becoming aware he had been hit:

Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?

Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle.

JBC, a man seemingly familiar with guns and rifles, describes the gap in time between hearing the first shot and being aware that he is hit, as similar to the time gap between the shots of an automatic rifle. Is this less than one second? - a "very, very brief span of time."
The following is lifted from the Pat Speers website -

(12-13-63 FBI report on a 12-11 interview, CD188, p. 3-5) "When Governor Connally was asked about the elapsed time between the first and last shot he remarked “Fast, my God it was fast. It seemed like a split second. Just that quick” and he snapped his fingers three times rapidly to illustrate the time and said “unbelievably quick…"

Is JBC describing two different shots that occur a 'split second' apart?
Is that what you are proposing?
Or is he describing hearing a shot and then being aware of being shot a 'split second' later.
This would explain why he only heard one shot.
That he might be mistaken about assuming a second shot is perfectly understandable.

I am not sure what you mean by corroboration. The fact that both said it in their testimony is established by the WC transcripts. You don't need corroboration for that. The zfilm shows Nellie leaning forward as if to speak to JBC just before the head shot. Both said that she said it over and over after the head shot.  What corroboration are you looking for?

You say that both John and Nellie Connally described Nellie comforting JBC before and after the headshot.
When you are talking about what people are saying it is customary to provide the actual quotes.
In this instance that would be the quotes of John Connally describing Nellie comforting him before and after the headshot.
And the quotes of Nellie Connaly where she describes comforting JBC before and after the headshot.
I'm not sure what you are having trouble understanding.

Are you saying that there were only two shots then?

No.
Are you saying the first two shots were close together?
 

[Zeon Mason]

And the vast majority of witness Heard the Last 2 shots closer together..

And at least 2/3 rds majority of earwitness heard 3 shots, of which Harold Norman the witness right beneath the SE 6th floor TSBD gunman, concurred.

Not only that, but Norman heard the 3 shots fired is approx 4 secs as per his camera recorded interviews using the “boom, klak, klak “ sequence

[Dan O'meara]

z250-270.

Just to clarify -

I was pointing out the incredibly short time gap JBC reports between hearing the first shot and being aware that he is shot. He describes it, in many different ways, as a 'split second':

Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?

Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle.

JBC, a man seemingly familiar with guns and rifles, describes the gap in time between hearing the first shot and being aware that he is hit, as similar to the time gap between the shots of an automatic rifle. Is this less than one second? - a "very, very brief span of time."
The following is lifted from the Pat Speers website -

(12-13-63 FBI report on a 12-11 interview, CD188, p. 3-5) "When Governor Connally was asked about the elapsed time between the first and last shot he remarked “Fast, my God it was fast. It seemed like a split second. Just that quick” and he snapped his fingers three times rapidly to illustrate the time and said “unbelievably quick…"


A very, very brief span of time
Two or three people involved
Automatic rifle
My God it was fast
A split second
Snapped fingers three times rapidly
Unbelievably quick

The point that JBC was describing a 'split second' between the two events - hearing the shot and awareness of being shot - could hardly be clearer. You avoided this point by trying to change the subject because it causes such great difficulties for your own model:

"You are assuming that JBC was hit by the first shot!!  He said he was not because he was able to turn to his right and look back to check on JFK. Nellie said he turned around and uttered "Oh, no, no, no" after the first shot and that the second shot hit him in the back as he was turned around to the right."

I ignored the fact you'd totally blanked the point I had made because I was interested in this sentence - "He said he was not because he was able to turn to his right and look back to check on JFK."

JBC couldn't have been hit by the first shot because he had time "to turn to his right and look back to check on JFK."
Because I accepted JBC's testimony that he first became aware of being shot @z234 I knew for a fact there was nowhere in the Z-film, before z234, that JBC made any kind of attempt to look back at JFK. So I asked you:

"Please give the frame in the Z-film where JBC is trying to "check on JFK".

And you answered: "z250-270."



Looking at the clip above, specifically at frames z250 -z270, we see JBC turning round in his seat to face JFK.
According to your model JBC hasn't been shot yet. This is the moment in JBC's WC testimony when he states:

"I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye."

The corner of his eye?? He's looking directly at the president. If his goal is to look at the president how can he not be seeing him if he's looking directly at him?
Whatever the case, it's now that your model really disintegrates:

"...failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back."

This does not happen in the Z-film. After looking directly at JFK there is no point at which JBC tries to look over his left shoulder "into the back seat". In the many statements (and there are many) JBC is consistent in stating that at the moment he was shot he was turning to his left.
This does not happen after z270

JBC states that immediately after being hit he cried out "Oh, no, no, no" but in the Z-film this happens before he has even turned round in his seat. It has already been established that JBC cried this out after he was shot, the one example you gave to try and muddy the water from the Life article ended up confirming he cried this after being shot as the article itself was about JBC positively identifying z234 as the frame he was shot!

After this JBC doubles up in his seat, This can be seen happening before z270 and therefore before he is shot according to your model. In fact both Nellie Connally and JBC describe him turning sharply to the right and crumpling in his seat. It is this that we are seeing between z250 - z270, not JBC responding to the first shot.

After this Nellie pulls JBC towards her.

It's amazing how many times you've wheeled out the Connally's to make some dubious point or another but a closer examination of their testimonies and how they fit with the Z-film reveals the near impossibility of your proposed shot at Z271. In order to make it work you have to ignore virtually every part of their testimonies apart from the one piece that seems to agree with your doomed model - JBC turning to the right.

If the second shot was the head shot, perhaps you could explain:

1. why JBC suddenly starts sailing forward from z272-278
2. why his hat changes position in his hand between z271 and z272
3. why Greer said he turned to look back immediately after the second shot and saw JBC falling back onto his wife. This occurs from z278-290
4. why JFK's hair flies from z273-275 but no one else's hair moves.  According to Hickey, this occurs at the time of the second shot just before the head shot.

1. JBC doesn't sail forward in any way, shape or form?
2. His hat doesn't change position
3. Greer is FoS. This has been solidly established yet you keep wheeling him out.
4. The wind blows his hair. Hickey is describing the headshot, not the slight ruffle of JFK's hair you put so much on.

Your model lies in tatters.
There is only one weakness in the model I am presenting (in regard to JBC's statements) and it is a significant one - if the first shot JBC hears is the same shot that hits him, and the second shot he hears is the headshot - what happens to the third shot? JBC describes the shots as "very loud" noises, so how come he doesn't hear the third shot?
The only answer I can give is that in the immediate aftermath of the headshot JBC finds himself somewhat occupied:

[Dan O'meara]

And the vast majority of witness Heard the Last 2 shots closer together..

A lot of witnesses heard that. Not "the vast majority"

And at least 2/3 rds majority of earwitness heard 3 shots, of which Harold Norman the witness right beneath the SE 6th floor TSBD gunman, concurred.

"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt action of the rifle."

This is from his affidavit (12/04/63)

Not only that, but Norman heard the 3 shots fired is approx 4 secs as per his camera recorded interviews using the “boom, klak, klak “ sequence

Can you provide this sequence.

[Andrew Mason]

The point that JBC was describing a 'split second' between the two events - hearing the shot and awareness of being shot - could hardly be clearer. You avoided this point by trying to change the subject because it causes such great difficulties for your own model:

No. I looked at all the evidence. 

If he was hit in the back by the first shot he would have felt being hit a split second BEFORE he heard the sound of the first shot because the bullet arrives first. 

Furthermore, Nellie said he was hit on the second shot. Greer said the second shot was just before he turned back the first time.  Gayle Newman who was right there said that JBC appeared to be hit on the second shot.

JBC described a time lapse, which he referred to as a "split second", in which he recognized the sound as a rifle shot, formed the view that an assassination was unfolding, having enough time to turn around to see JFK, conclude from what he saw that the President had slumped and then decided to turn to the left to get a better look BEFORE he was hit in the back.  That is not possible to do in one a second let alone negative 100 ms.  He was not a clock measuring seconds. So his reference to a "split second" is a subjective impression and should only be given weight if it fit with all the rest of the evidence.  It doesn't.

I ignored the fact you'd totally blanked the point I had made because I was interested in this sentence - "He said he was not because he was able to turn to his right and look back to check on JFK."

JBC couldn't have been hit by the first shot because he had time "to turn to his right and look back to check on JFK."
Because I accepted JBC's testimony that he first became aware of being shot @z234 I knew for a fact there was nowhere in the Z-film, before z234, that JBC made any kind of attempt to look back at JFK. So I asked you:

"Please give the frame in the Z-film where JBC is trying to "check on JFK".

And you answered: "z250-270."

Looking at the clip above, specifically at frames z250 -z270, we see JBC turning round in his seat to face JFK.
According to your model JBC hasn't been shot yet. This is the moment in JBC's WC testimony when he states:

"I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye."

The corner of his eye?? He's looking directly at the president. If his goal is to look at the president how can he not be seeing him if he's looking directly at him?

He is not looking directly at him. JFK has moved left. JBC's face cannot be facing directly backward let alone to further around to face JFK - try it. So he is using peripheral vision.

Whatever the case, it's now that your model really disintegrates:

"...failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back."

This does not happen in the Z-film. After looking directly at JFK there is no point at which JBC tries to look over his left shoulder "into the back seat". In the many statements (and there are many) JBC is consistent in stating that at the moment he was shot he was turning to his left.
This does not happen after z270

JBC states that immediately after being hit he cried out "Oh, no, no, no" but in the Z-film this happens before he has even turned round in his seat. It has already been established that JBC cried this out after he was shot, the one example you gave to try and muddy the water from the Life article ended up confirming he cried this after being shot as the article itself was about JBC positively identifying z234 as the frame he was shot!

That is the problem. No one asked him or Nellie where he said "no, no, no" in the zfilm.  Nellie said he said it before he was hit.  We can see when he says it (z245 - z250 or so).

After this JBC doubles up in his seat.  This can be seen happening before z270 and therefore before he is shot according to your model. In fact both Nellie Connally and JBC describe him turning sharply to the right and crumpling in his seat. It is this that we are seeing between z250 - z270, not JBC responding to the first shot.

Doubling up ever?  I don't see that.  Certainly not before z278 which is just before he falls back onto his wife.  It is apparent that JBC's mind was not focused on his surroundings or his position after he was hit so I don't think we can attribute much weight to what he said about such things after he was hit where it is at odds with the rest of the evidence.

It's amazing how many times you've wheeled out the Connally's to make some dubious point or another but a closer examination of their testimonies and how they fit with the Z-film reveals the near impossibility of your proposed shot at Z271. In order to make it work you have to ignore virtually every part of their testimonies apart from the one piece that seems to agree with your doomed model - JBC turning to the right.

1. JBC doesn't sail forward in any way, shape or form?

2. His hat doesn't change position

3. Greer is FoS. This has been solidly established yet you keep wheeling him out.

So he did not see JBC falling back when he looked back from z280-290? Or he did not do it in response to hearing the second shot just before that?

4. The wind blows his hair. Hickey is describing the headshot, not the slight ruffle of JFK's hair you put so much on.

Hickey was not describing the head shot.  He said that the second shot appeared to miss him and just cause his hair to fly forward. He said the third did impact the President: (18 H 43):

• At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them. It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right upper rear of his head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again.

We can see the hair fly forward from z273 to z276:

Your model lies in tatters.
There is only one weakness in the model I am presenting (in regard to JBC's statements) and it is a significant one - if the first shot JBC hears is the same shot that hits him, and the second shot he hears is the headshot - what happens to the third shot? JBC describes the shots as "very loud" noises, so how come he doesn't hear the third shot?
The only answer I can give is that in the immediate aftermath of the headshot JBC finds himself somewhat occupied:

That's a pretty big weakness. Particularly when so many confidently recalled that the head shot was the last.  Do you have any explanation why the shooter (Oswald) would want to risk another shot after such an obvious hit on the target?