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Author Topic: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )  (Read 225150 times)

Offline Michael Welch

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #2664 on: October 03, 2023, 04:45:11 PM »
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@Michael Welch: Thank you for your input on Billy Lovelady in Weigman film and the Altgens 6 photo which do coincide.

But as Mr. Ford has already explained, the Hughes film had Lovelady right adjacent to the west wall and so it’s a question if Lovejady did actually move to the center handrail position during the Towner film and if that’s  the explanation for this swath of red seen thru the foliage in Towner film that’s too wide ti be just one person OR..

Are there TWO persons with reddish shirts and Oswald was the one in Hughes against the west wall while Lovelady was at the center hand rail ( middle ) of the steps but was obscured in Hughes film by the blue shirt man in the pedistal?

I think Alan and I arrived at this latter scenario because of the 4 anomalies in Altgens 6 photo and Weigman film:

1. The strange shadow on the right side of Lovelady’s body in Weigman film clip
2. The Cronkite version of Altgens 6 photo which shows what appears to be a forearm raised up with what looks like a bottle (darkhorizontal slash) that cuts across the white shirt part of Loveladys body.
3. The 2nd version of Altgens 6 photo which shows the firearm ( and bottle) have been basically erased by coloring over it with the shirt texture pattern of Loveladys shirt.
4. This right arm shirt sleeve of Loveladys has NO HAND at the end of it AND the end of the sleeve ( cuff) weirdly looks like it’s overlapping part of the face of the black man whom is supposed to be Carl Jones , ( big guy with cream colored long sleeve shirt ).

Hi Zeon, After studying the Hughes gif some more, there are not two people in red shirts. What happens is somebody, possibly Jay Skaggs, comes over from the right hand side and takes a picture. They end up in between Billy and Maddie but are actually closer to Elm Street. Do you happen to have a link to Conkrite's Altgens 6? Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #2664 on: October 03, 2023, 04:45:11 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #2665 on: October 04, 2023, 05:36:38 AM »
[Mr. Doudna is] very right to query the assumption that Prayer Man in Wiegman must be the same person as Prayer Man in Darnell. For some time now I myself have been querying this assumption, which I suspect has caused no end of confusion.



PM/Darnell is on the landing; PM/Wiegman is down at least one step.
Their bodies are oriented differently (compare the position of the left elbows).

Friends, forget Prayer Woman in Darnell for a moment. (Of forever, if you're being sensible.)

Where exactly is Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman standing?



Not on the landing, that's for sure.
Look how low his right elbow goes when it's lowered. Look how close it comes to the narrow column of brickwork behind the white column.
And look at the height of this right elbow, when it's raised, in relation to the top of the black man in front's head.

Now compare Red Shirt Man in Hughes:



If he were to half-raise his LEFT arm the way Prayer Man in Wiegman's is raised, it would come up to the same height.
When he raises his RIGHT hand to his face the way Prayer Man in Wiegman does, it comes up to the same height.

Prayer Man in Wiegman appears to be standing on the same step (the fourth from the bottom) as Red Shirt Man in Hughes.

NB! Red Shirt Man in Hughes LOOKS closer to the black man than does Prayer Man in Wiegman. But that's only because of the different angles at which Messrs. Hughes & Wiegman are filming. Note that Red Shirt Man in Hughes is not in the black man's shade: he is catching all that direct sunlight. This would not be happening were he not at a significant distance behind him. Note also that Red Shirt Man in Hughes is right over close to the column and is still catching a whole lotta sunlight. (I point this out, in part, for the benefit of the fools who argued that Mr. Lovelady in Wiegman, over near the center rail, is half-shadowed due to 'natural shadow cast by the western column'---------complete fantasy.)

It appears that
------Prayer Man in Wiegman is on the fourth step up (same as Mr. Lovelady in the LATTER Wiegman frames)
------there is someone up on the landing behind him.

Just like the configuration we see in Hughes, where a head can be seen behind Red Shirt Man:



So: what is it that's stopping us from believing that Prayer Man in Wiegman is simply the same person as Red Shirt Man in Hughes?

Answer: shadow.

New Question: Can a person stand where Prayer Man in Wiegman is standing, and facing forward out of the doorway, without catching a healthy amount of direct sunlight on much of his body?

Red Shirt Man in Hughes certainly can't do it. So how is it that Prayer Man in Wiegman is able to pull it off?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 05:50:18 AM by Alan Ford »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #2666 on: October 04, 2023, 05:46:39 AM »
New Question: Can a person stand where Prayer Man in Wiegman is standing, and facing forward out of the doorway, without catching a healthy amount of direct sunlight on much of his body?

Red Shirt Man in Hughes certainly can't do it. So how is it that Prayer Man in Wiegman is able to pull it off?

Ah yes, shadow, shadow.

The preposterous shadow down Mr. Lovelady's side in Wiegman cannot be explained as a natural phenomenon. Only one serious attempt has been made to do so, and the results were, to put it mildly, less than happy:



IF (and it's still an if) Prayer Man in Wiegman is Mr. Oswald, just as he was Red Shirt Man in Hughes, then we can identify how the 'investigating' authorities made the easy identification of him on the steps impossible: using aerial imaging, they added fake shadow not just down Mr. Lovelady's side but down much of Mr. Oswald's body too.

And then they told Mr. Lovelady to pretend to have been in the Oswald spot, way over by the west wall of the doorway.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 05:52:12 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #2666 on: October 04, 2023, 05:46:39 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #2667 on: October 04, 2023, 05:56:41 AM »
IF (and it's still an if) Prayer Man in Wiegman is Mr. Oswald, just as he was Red Shirt Man in Hughes, then we can identify how the 'investigating' authorities made the easy identification of him on the steps impossible: using aerial imaging, they added fake shadow not just down Mr. Lovelady's side but down much of Mr. Oswald's body too.

And then they told Mr. Lovelady to pretend to have been in the Oswald spot, way over by the west wall of the doorway.

The above scenario would obviously have Mr. Oswald remain on the steps at least until the shots have been fired. As such, it fails to account for this confusing item we see in Wiegman:



What could this be?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 05:58:17 AM by Alan Ford »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #2668 on: October 04, 2023, 12:47:09 PM »
At the time these Hughes frames are taken,
-----------------Mr. Oswald is standing over west in the doorway, on the fourth step. He takes a sip of Coke. We see no flesh of his LEFT hand, because he is holding the flag behind him
-----------------A laid-back Mr. Lovelady is SITTING on one of the upper steps, content with getting a glimpse of Pres. Kennedy when he passes right by the building. He has a decent enough view, as there is no one standing in front of him.

But then, without warning, and just as Pres. Kennedy is about to come into Mr. Lovelady's view, Mr. Oswald blocks his view by waving a flag--not up high, but to his side

And this is what Towner shows. Look closely at the flag when it is at higher elevation------------we get a glimpse of Mr. Lovelady's shirt behind it. Because Mr. Lovelady is sitting there on one of the top steps, just like Mr. Shelley said:



As a result of having his view rudely blocked by what Mr. Oswald is waving right in front of him, Mr. Lovelady rises to his feet. Which is what is happening in these Bell frames, which show the doorway just seconds after Towner:


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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #2668 on: October 04, 2023, 12:47:09 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #2669 on: October 04, 2023, 03:43:01 PM »
And this is what Towner shows. Look closely at the flag when it is at higher elevation------------we get a glimpse of Mr. Lovelady's shirt behind it.

And not just his shirt: his head too-------------



Remember: if Mr. Lovelady is Red Shirt Man in Hughes, there shouldn't yet be anyone in that area behind where the flag is. But there is someone there. It's Mr. Lovelady, who is SITTING on one of the steps.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 03:44:39 PM by Alan Ford »

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #2670 on: October 05, 2023, 01:10:01 AM »
@Michael Welsh: I went back and found  page 252 of this thread is where Alan and myself and Chris began our discussion about the horizontal swath of red that we were seeing in the magnified GIF of Bell film and that it appeared that  (thru the foliage) perhaps 2 persons with reddish shirts were in proximity  to each ON THE FRONT STEPs!

Now Mr. Ford has proposed that Lovelady was SITTING at that time on the steps and I think I agree, because of the slight bit of red that’s on the left side of the white element just to the left of the blue shirt man on the pedestal as seen in Hughes film gif.

That would explain the anomaly of the shadow being added to Lovelady in Weigman film because Oswald was against the west wall when Lovelady was sitting on a few steps near the center handrail.

Lovelady stood up just in time to be seen in Weigman while at the same time Oswald was about to display his sign/banner and Oswald  had moved into the spot next to Lovelady which required Oswald be removed from Weigman film using some sort of method of darkening which resulted in thus weird shadow.

Question:

Why however the Cronkite version of Altgens 6 photo showing what appears to be a light skin tone forearm ( thus cannot be Carl Jones dark brown skin) with light gray sleeves  rolled up,( can’t be Jones either because his sleeves were NOT  rolled up)  holding a bottle?

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #2670 on: October 05, 2023, 01:10:01 AM »


Offline Chris Davidson

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #2671 on: October 05, 2023, 02:05:13 AM »
After scaling and stabilizing that area, it appears as if the black gentleman against the west wall rises up possibly one step. Watch just to the left of the red clothing, it comes out from beneath the big shadow block. The orientation of those two appear to match what is seen in Hughes (except maybe the step up part) a few seconds earlier. But, still no ID on what appears to be the red shirted arm farthest east.
You may have to play it repeatedly for eye adjustments.
https://vimeo.com/870842433?share=copy