If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?

[Dan O'meara]

So no, a shooting time of 12:30 is not reflected in the tapes.

You've done it again, is there something wrong with you? Do you know you're doing it?
Nowhere have I said the shooting time of 12:30 reflected in the tapes. I've never heard the tapes so I wouldn't know. Yet again you twist what is actually written into what you want to hear, put this new version of things in other people's mouths and then claim your little victory.
That said, there's still valuable information in your post that I will look into.

[Martin Weidmann]

Being wrong or leaving out details of something you did or experienced months prior is not necessarily lying. Just about every witness that day recounted something incorrectly. That doesn't mean that everyone of them were liars. Your quickness to label Shelley and Lovelady as liars is a poor reflection on yourself.

Does that also mean that Victoria Adams could have misremembered where and when she saw Shelley and Lovelady?

The time line I constructed based on the combined testimony of the witnesses shows that Adams & Styles passed by the South West corner of the building at around the same time Shelley & Lovelady were there....

[Tim Nickerson]

Does that also mean that Victoria Adams could have misremembered where and when she saw Shelley and Lovelady?

The time line I constructed based on the combined testimony of the witnesses shows that Adams & Styles passed by the South West corner of the building at around the same time Shelley & Lovelady were there....

Of course it does.  Absolutely.

[Martin Weidmann]

Of course it does.  Absolutely.

Ok, with that in mind, let me propose the following time line to you, based on the combined testimony and statements of various witnesses

For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"

12.30.00 Last shot

12.30.30 "Oswald" arrives at the stairs on the 6th floor
              Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner sees them go down the stairs
              Officer Baker arrives at the front entrance (seen by Lovelady) and meets Truly, after just parking his bike
             
              Shelley and Lovelady are in front of the main entrance of the building. Gloria Calvary tells them the President has been shot.
              They first go to the little traffic island in front of the TSBD and then decide to go, down the dead end street in front of the TSBD,
              towards the railroad yard
              Lovelady and Shelley see Truly and Baker entering the building

Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.             

12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs
              Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door
              just left of the stairs     
              Truly and Baker, somewhat delayed by trying to call the east elevator down, pass the elevator block on the first floor and
              run towards the stairs, just missing the women

This timeline demonstrates that if "Oswald" and Adams & Styles both arrive at the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot and they descent the stairs at roughly the same speed, they could in theory have been on the stairs at the same time, with "Oswald" arriving on the 2nd floor around the same time Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor.

12:31.15 Baker arrives on the 2nd floor (Truly is already climbing the stairs to the 3rd floor) and meets Oswald in the lunchroom
              Adams and Styles arrive at the North East side of the loading dock and go down the stairs

12:31.30 Adams and Styles have gone round the most Northern point of the loading dock and start running toward the railroad yard
         
12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to
              go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
              towards the parallel road in the front of the building.
              Shelley and Lovelady are in that same location, roughly where the parallel road dead ends in a parking lot

Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
           
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

12.34.00 Adams and Styles arrive at the road that runs parallel to the TSBD, turn left and walk toward the main entrance.

12.35.00 After walking the distance from the warehouse building next to the TSBD, Adams and Styles arrive at the
              front entrance of the building. Styles enters the building straight away, but Adams stays behind to talk to some co-workers.
              The building is not yet sealed off.

12.36.00 Adams hears a radio report about the shots having been fired from the TSBD building. She enters the TSBD through the front
              entrance. She persuades the police officer who sealed of the main entrance to let her in. She takes the stairs to the 2nd floor,
              in the hall in the South East corner of the building. She then walks through the office space to the North West corner
              (where the 2nd floor lunchroom is) and takes the freight elevator to the 4th floor with two men she believes to be police
              officers or secret service.
             
              Shelley and Lovelady enter the building and arrive at the first floor where Lovelady - according to his testimony - sees a girl

Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.

             Shelley only saw Eddie Piper

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.

12.37.00 Sgt Harkness seals off the building at the building

The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie.

Did I get something wrong or miss something, Tim?

[Tim Nickerson]

Ok, with that in mind, let me propose the following time line to you, based on the combined testimony and statements of various witnesses

For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"

12.30.00 Last shot

12.30.30 "Oswald" arrives at the stairs on the 6th floor
              Adams and Styles arrive at the stairs on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner sees them go down the stairs
              Officer Baker arrives at the front entrance (seen by Lovelady) and meets Truly, after just parking his bike
             
              Shelley and Lovelady are in front of the main entrance of the building. Gloria Calvary tells them the President has been shot.
              They first go to the little traffic island in front of the TSBD and then decide to go, down the dead end street in front of the TSBD,
              towards the railroad yard
              Lovelady and Shelley see Truly and Baker entering the building

Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.             

12:31.00 "Oswald" arrives at the 2nd floor and goes into the lunchroom after decending 4 flights of stairs
              Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor, after decending 3 flights of stairs, and leave the building through the loading door
              just left of the stairs     
              Truly and Baker, somewhat delayed by trying to call the east elevator down, pass the elevator block on the first floor and
              run towards the stairs, just missing the women

This timeline demonstrates that if "Oswald" and Adams & Styles both arrive at the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot and they descent the stairs at roughly the same speed, they could in theory have been on the stairs at the same time, with "Oswald" arriving on the 2nd floor around the same time Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor.

12:31.15 Baker arrives on the 2nd floor (Truly is already climbing the stairs to the 3rd floor) and meets Oswald in the lunchroom
              Adams and Styles arrive at the North East side of the loading dock and go down the stairs

12:31.30 Adams and Styles have gone round the most Northern point of the loading dock and start running toward the railroad yard
         
12.33.00 Adams and Styles encounter a police officer, somewhere near the North Western corner of the TSBD, and are told to
              go back to the building. The women walk along side the railway track, west of the TSBD and it's warehouse extension,
              towards the parallel road in the front of the building.
              Shelley and Lovelady are in that same location, roughly where the parallel road dead ends in a parking lot

Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
           
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

12.34.00 Adams and Styles arrive at the road that runs parallel to the TSBD, turn left and walk toward the main entrance.

12.35.00 After walking the distance from the warehouse building next to the TSBD, Adams and Styles arrive at the
              front entrance of the building. Styles enters the building straight away, but Adams stays behind to talk to some co-workers.
              The building is not yet sealed off.

12.36.00 Adams hears a radio report about the shots having been fired from the TSBD building. She enters the TSBD through the front
              entrance. She persuades the police officer who sealed of the main entrance to let her in. She takes the stairs to the 2nd floor,
              in the hall in the South East corner of the building. She then walks through the office space to the North West corner
              (where the 2nd floor lunchroom is) and takes the freight elevator to the 4th floor with two men she believes to be police
              officers or secret service.
             
              Shelley and Lovelady enter the building and arrive at the first floor where Lovelady - according to his testimony - sees a girl

Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.

             Shelley only saw Eddie Piper

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.

12.37.00 Sgt Harkness seals off the building at the building

The times are approximations, but the timeline works perfectly and includes all the known information without any witness having to lie.

Did I get something wrong or miss something, Tim?

I'm too tired to try to process most of that right now. I'll just remark on a couple of your points. You have Adams and Styles at the stairwell 30 seconds after the shooting ended. In order to have them there that soon, you have to disregard Adams' time of 15 seconds of staying at the window. Barry Ernest said that she stood by that statement. The other thing is that Dorothy Garner never saw them go down the stairs. That being said, your scenario may work. As I said, I'm too tired to say with any certainty.

[Dan O'meara]

I'll just remark on a couple of your points. You have Adams and Styles at the stairwell 30 seconds after the shooting ended. In order to have them there that soon, you have to disregard Adams' time of 15 seconds of staying at the window. Barry Ernest said that she stood by that statement. The other thing is that Dorothy Garner never saw them go down the stairs.

The points Tim raises seem quite minor. I don't see why a young women running can't make it to the top of the stairs from the window in 15 seconds. Even with heels on. Garner may not be an eye-witness to Adams and Styles descending the stairs but she is certainly an ear-witness as she can hear them clattering down the noisy wooden stairs as she comes out of her office.
Another potential synchronisation comes from Truly's WC testimony. In it he describes how he and Baker run up to the 5th floor where they take the elevator up to the 7th. They go on to the roof and search round then begin to make their way back down until they reach the 1st floor:

"Mr. BELIN. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down again?
Mr. TRULY. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is hard to say."

It may be possible to corroborate Truly's rough approximation. On the way down they reach the 4th floor:

"Mr. TRULY. Then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth floor.
I don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first floor. But I do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the time we got down that far."

A potential ID for the officer on the 4th floor comes from the WC testimony of J Herbert Sawyer, Inspector of Police with the Dallas Police Department, who arrives at the TSBD minutes after the shooting:

"Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that.
Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down?
Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.
Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir."

The elevator in question is the passenger elevator by the front entrance. The top floor this elevator reaches is the 4th floor. It is possible that the officer Truly sees on the 4th floor is Sgt. Harkness.
What I find completely mind-blowing about Truly's testimony is that when they first reach the freight elevators and look up it seems like both elevators are at the fifth floor. However, when they make it to the fifth floor the elevator nearest the stairs is gone!!! WTF!!!
If we're talking about the potential escape route of the assassin then why not just take the elevator. As Truly and Baker are ascending the stairs someone is descending in an elevator. How can it be that no-one seems to notice this happen???

[Martin Weidmann]

I'm too tired to try to process most of that right now. I'll just remark on a couple of your points. You have Adams and Styles at the stairwell 30 seconds after the shooting ended. In order to have them there that soon, you have to disregard Adams' time of 15 seconds of staying at the window. Barry Ernest said that she stood by that statement. The other thing is that Dorothy Garner never saw them go down the stairs. That being said, your scenario may work. As I said, I'm too tired to say with any certainty.

You have Adams and Styles at the stairwell 30 seconds after the shooting ended. In order to have them there that soon, you have to disregard Adams' time of 15 seconds of staying at the window.

2 comments, Tim.

Victoria Adams talked to Barry Ernest 35 years after the event. I'm not sure how much value can be placed on a time estimate after all that time. But more importantly, Adams told the FBI on 11/24/63 that she and Styles went down the stairs immediately after the last shot. She said something similar to Jim Leavelle on 02/07/64 and again to the FBI on 03/23/64 and she repeated it again in her testimony. And Sandra Styles told the FBI on 03/19/64 she and Adams left "at that time" after hearing the shots and seeing people running.

Having just read Victoria Adams' testimony again, she does say at some point that she left the window after "between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately, but she's hardly firm on the subject.

Secondly, I used as a guide, for the 30 seconds to get to the stairs, the time trial done by Discovery's "unsolved history"

In it, they timed "Oswald" as needing 27 seconds to get to the stairwell. I used 30 seconds just to be on the safe side. However, "Oswald" had to walk the distance of the building from the South East corner (the sniper's nest) to nearly the North West corner as boxes block his way for a short cut. He then had to turn left and walk from the East side of the building to the West side.

Adams and Styles, on the other hand, were situated in the middle between the East and West of the building with behind them a door that lead from the office space directly into the storage room behind it. The distance they had to walk was considerably less than "Oswald"

Mr. BELIN - Sometime after the third shot, and I don't want to get into the actual period of time yet, you went back into the stockroom which would be to the north of where your offices are located on the fourth floor, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. BELIN - When you got into the stockroom, where did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went to the back stairs.
Mr. BELIN - Are there any other stairs that lead down from the fourth floor other than those back stairs in the rear of the stockroom?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Those stairs would be in the northwest comer of the building, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - I was running. We were running.

In the Discovery video "Oswald" needs only 17 seconds to walk the distance of the building from South East to North East. Adams and Styles could walk in a straight line to the stairs, as the 4th floor storage space was empty (if I recall correctly), and thus would have only required some 17 seconds to get there. They could indeed easily have stayed at the window for a few seconds and still be at the entrance of the stairs 30 seconds after the last shot.

The other thing is that Dorothy Garner never saw them go down the stairs.

Actually, we don't really know what Garner saw or not. The Stroud letter only tells us that;

"after miss Adams went downstairs she (miss Garner) saw mr Truly and the police man come up."

Garner was with Adams and Styles at the window. When the girls went to the stairs she followed them from the office to the storage space. There is no reason to assume that she did not see them go down the stairs.

[Jack Nessan]

Work the timeline back from what is known and trace it back to when they would have left the fourth floor.

The Shelley -Lovelady encounter takes place right before the encounter with the police officer telling them to return to the front of the building. 1 minute is the aprroximate time it took the two women to return to the front steps. The rest is how long does it take to hurry through the building and out of the Houston exit door and go around the corner at the rear of the building. Adams guesstimated 5 minutes total.

Mr. BELIN - Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.

Miss ADAMS - I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed

That would be the most time. In all likelihood it was much less if it only took 1 minute to return to the front of the building from the encounter with the officer.

------------------

Sargeant Harkness sealed the building off at 12:36. The encounter with the police officer maybe even Harkness himself took place at approximately  12:36.

Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

Styles and Adams do as they are told by the officer and returned to the front of the building where Styles reenters the building and Adams stays and listens to the police radio.

-----------------------------------------------

At 12:37 Inspector Sawyer is told the rear of the building is sealed off and has been since 12:36. Sawyer then places two officers at the front entrance to seal off the front of the building. Adams after listening to the police radio is allowed to reenter the building by the two officers on the front steps.

Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.

----------------------------------------

At 12:37  JJ Hills radio transmission is playing on the police radio.

12:37 pm Patrolman J. J. Hill:

"Get some men up here to cover this school depository building. It's believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the end."

Adams and Styles did not leave the fourth floor until after Baker and Truly ascended the stairs passed the fourth floor.

Adams may also have just been listening to the conversation between the officers.