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Author Topic: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?  (Read 61156 times)

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?
« Reply #1032 on: August 11, 2020, 12:32:21 PM »
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The "sighting" of Jarman and Norman mentioned by Oswald under investigation is indeed intriguing.

Indeed it is! An attempt was made to put the claim in Mr Oswald's mouth that he had actually eaten lunch with Messrs. Jarman & Norman.

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?
« Reply #1033 on: August 12, 2020, 01:26:45 AM »
Not sure what this means:

Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.
Mr. BALL. How long after you came down from the first floor were you taken over to the Police Department?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long.
Mr. BALL. You can't give me any estimate in minutes?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I would not want to say

We see Williams outside the building 8 to 15 minutes after shots (according to Groden HSCA)



How does this fit in with his testimony?

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?
« Reply #1034 on: August 12, 2020, 02:42:43 AM »
Not sure what this means:

Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.
Mr. BALL. How long after you came down from the first floor were you taken over to the Police Department?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long.
Mr. BALL. You can't give me any estimate in minutes?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I would not want to say

We see Williams outside the building 8 to 15 minutes after shots (according to Groden HSCA)



How does this fit in with his testimony?

It means Williams was incorrect.....here is Jarman's version. Was he mistaken about who he ran outside with?

Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. I ran, then we ran to the front door.
Mr. BALL - You ran to the front door?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; and out on the street.
Mr. BALL - You and who?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman.
Mr. BALL - You and Harold went out there?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see a fellow named Brennan?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Where did you see him first?
Mr. JARMAN - He was talking to a police officer.
Mr. BALL - How was he dressed?
Mr. JARMAN - He was dressed in construction clothes.
Mr. BALL - Anything else, any other way to describe him?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, he had on a silverlike helmet.
Mr. BALL - Hard-hat?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay out there very long?
Mr. JARMAN - Just a few minutes.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We heard him talking to this officer about that he had heard these shots and he had seen the barrel of the gun sticking out the window, and he said that the shots came from inside the building, and I told the officer that I believed that they came from inside the building also, and then he rushed us back inside.
Mr. BALL - The officer did?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From the time that you went down on the first floor until you left the building to go home did you leave the building at all?
Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't.

I believe in the movie from which the stills you posted were extracted that you can see Jarman being ushered inside. Simplest answer is that Jarman and Williams left via the front door and were ushered back inside after a short period that involved Brennan.

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Re: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?
« Reply #1034 on: August 12, 2020, 02:42:43 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?
« Reply #1035 on: August 12, 2020, 03:06:20 AM »
It means Williams was incorrect.....here is Jarman's version. Was he mistaken about who he ran outside with?

Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. I ran, then we ran to the front door.
Mr. BALL - You ran to the front door?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; and out on the street.
Mr. BALL - You and who?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman.
Mr. BALL - You and Harold went out there?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see a fellow named Brennan?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Where did you see him first?
Mr. JARMAN - He was talking to a police officer.
Mr. BALL - How was he dressed?
Mr. JARMAN - He was dressed in construction clothes.
Mr. BALL - Anything else, any other way to describe him?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, he had on a silverlike helmet.
Mr. BALL - Hard-hat?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay out there very long?
Mr. JARMAN - Just a few minutes.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We heard him talking to this officer about that he had heard these shots and he had seen the barrel of the gun sticking out the window, and he said that the shots came from inside the building, and I told the officer that I believed that they came from inside the building also, and then he rushed us back inside.
Mr. BALL - The officer did?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From the time that you went down on the first floor until you left the building to go home did you leave the building at all?
Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't.

I believe in the movie from which the stills you posted were extracted that you can see Jarman being ushered inside. Simplest answer is that Jarman and Williams left via the front door and were ushered back inside after a short period that involved Brennan.
Nice one Colin, was wondering about the guy going back inside. Jarman makes sense, Williams probably followed shortly after.
Fits the timeline with the boys coming down between 5 and 10 minutes after shooting.

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?
« Reply #1036 on: August 12, 2020, 11:11:36 AM »
I believe in the movie from which the stills you posted were extracted that you can see Jarman being ushered inside. Simplest answer is that Jarman and Williams left via the front door and were ushered back inside after a short period that involved Brennan.

Martin Film:



Sidenote!------------Mr Lovelady's appearance here on the steps doesn't tally with any of his pre-HSCA statements.

 Thumb1:

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Re: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?
« Reply #1036 on: August 12, 2020, 11:11:36 AM »


Offline Alex Hospes

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Re: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?
« Reply #1037 on: October 24, 2023, 11:14:59 PM »
  Eliminating eyewitness testimony and relying on the false medical evidence is not an effective way to find the truth. The medical evidence in this case is totally fraudulent and it has taken researchers decades to get the real story. We don't know who the real killers were with any certainty. However, it wasn't Oswald, unless he manifested a second body to the right front of the president.  See Douglas Horne's important research on the medical evidence for some very disturbing research. How do you reconcile the false autopsy photos with the testimony of the vast majority of the witnesses who clearly stated there was a large hole in the back of the head? Not one bit of the medical evidence makes any sense. Look at how the HSCA struggled with the medical evidence. There were several pieces of metal found in the president's body at the autopsy that were reported by a reputable witness with no reason to prevaricate (Dennis David).

 If "Lee Hardly" was the assassin, everything would be extremely clear and no cover-up would not be necessary. We would see exit wounds on the front of the body, right? Where are these exit wounds? Instead, the entire case is riddled with jaw dropping inconsistencies, witness intimidation, and several murders of vital witnesses. Just one example: why would LBJ call Parkland Hospital to coerce Dr. Crenshaw into wrestling a death bed confession from the dying Oswald? Also the medical evidence includes the SBT, which is impossible for several reasons, yet lone nutters continue to stubbornly embrace this moronic theory. Arlen Specter deserves a lot of scorn, not only for the monstrous lie of the SBT, but also for threatening and deliberately changing witness testimony that contradicted the false government account of the shooting.

Another thing...some folks seem to believe that since the real assassins weren't caught, they don't exist. In truth, the assassination was a huge success, since a patsy was framed and the real assassins escaped. The obvious political reasons for the assassination were silenced and the world hasn't been the same since.

There is a legend that Crenshaw at one point tried claiming that the person identifying themself as LBJ actually said he wanted Oswald to be killed or left to die, contrary to his well-known position that LBJ wanted a deathbed confession. Gus Russo claimed that Crenshaw said this to him personally. Gary Mack said that Jane Rusconi corroborated this and wrote about it in her notes. I recently had the chance to have a quick chat with Rusconi. I asked her a couple of times if she remembered anything matching what Mack said, and she did not give any positive answer. She said that while she did have many personal papers from her work on the movie, unfortunately they were in storage in another town. This is the only information I was able to receive.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2023, 11:16:30 PM by Alex Hospes »

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?
« Reply #1038 on: October 25, 2023, 09:20:14 PM »
There’s the possibility that Oswald ( or other shooter ) could have used the East elevator if he had an accomplice who operated it, to take Oswald past the 4th floor unseen by Dorothy Garner and Oswald could have exited the elevator on the 2nd floor landing as early as 55 secs post shots.

The accomplice then operated the East elevator returning it to the 5th floor by 70-75 secs post shots where it would be then seen by Truly looking up the shaft.

That’s about the only reasonable alternative LN scenario imo, unless it can be determined that Mrs Garner waited at least 70 secs post shots before she came out which would be enough time for Oswald to have used the staircase and be starting down from 6th floor  about 45 secs post shots and at a 10sec per floor descent , Oswald have gone down part of the 4th floor staircase and not  be in LOS of Garner when she exited the 4th floor office door at 70 sec post shots.

I’ve got the earliest probable time for the SW 6th floor window shooter using the MC rifle found on 6th floor , to start down the staircase not earlier tan approx 45 secs post shots because of the added time required for wiping prints off the rifle while doubletiming across the 180 ft of floor  (requires 25 secs of time ) and for the act of slowly withdrawing the rifle after it took several secs for Bob Jackson to spot the rifle, a few more secs to exclaim “there’s a rifle in the window” and a few more seconds fir Macolm Couch to look up and find the window thaf Jackson was pointing at.

The shooter also had to get up from the box he was sitting on and turn around with the rifle and then had squeeze thru a narrow opening ( per Tom Aleyas observation of the original gap that existed in the wall of boxes before it was widened)

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Re: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?
« Reply #1038 on: October 25, 2023, 09:20:14 PM »