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Author Topic: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?  (Read 81879 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

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So, still no actual evidence for your claim? Now why doesn't that surprise me....

And who is saying anything about CE399 being planted?

Long time no see Ce399 butt-end view posted by OAKers

Google 'ce399 planted jfk'
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 07:55:43 AM by Bill Chapman »

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Online Martin Weidmann

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Long time no see Ce399 butt-end view posted by OAKers

Google 'ce399 planted jfk'

Google 'ce399 planted jfk'

For what? Does it tell me who, in this thread/discussion, has said anything about CE399 being planted?

Now where is the evidence for your pathetic claim "that plenty of CTers/JAQers (aka OAKers) have cared enough about Ce399 to the point where they show the bullet only at the profile"?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 08:06:28 AM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Google 'ce399 planted jfk'

For what? Does it tell me who, in this thread/discussion, has said anything about CE399 being planted?

Now where is the evidence for your pathetic claim "that plenty of CTers/JAQers (aka OAKers) have cared enough about Ce399 to the point where they show the bullet only at the profile"?

Point out where I said 'in this thread'
OAKers are rife here, there and everywhere.

The 'Lack of Damage to Ce399' thread on this forum is a fine example of what I have claimed here:
For instance, Gary Craig has failed to include the butt end view along with the side view:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1648.msg82893.html#msg82893

Additionally, nowhere in that 42-page thread has any OAKer intentionally posted a proper view of the butt-end of Ce399. And in a thread about damage to Ce399, no less!!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 09:27:10 AM by Bill Chapman »

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Online Martin Weidmann

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Point out where I said 'in this thread'
OAKers are rife here, there and everywhere.

The 'Lack of Damage to Ce399' thread on this forum is a fine example of what I have claimed here:
For instance, Gary Craig has failed to include the butt end view along with the side view:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1648.msg82893.html#msg82893

Additionally, nowhere in that 42-page thread has any OAKer intentionally posted a proper view of the butt-end of Ce399. And in a thread about damage to Ce399, no less!!

Point out where I said 'in this thread'
OAKers are rife here, there and everywhere.


So, in your pathetic attempt to make a point, you are making a vague claim that can not be substantiated. Got it...

The 'Lack of Damage to Ce399' thread on this forum is a fine example of what I have claimed here:
For instance, Gary Craig has failed to include the butt end view along with the side view:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1648.msg82893.html#msg82893


So what? The thread's name is correct. CE399 has a lack of damage. If you wanted to point out the obvious damage to the butt, you could have done so.

Additionally, nowhere in that 42-page thread has any OAKer intentionally posted a proper view of the butt-end of Ce399. And in a thread about damage to Ce399, no less!!

Again, so what.... From all the cherry picking of evidence that goes on here, by both LNs and CTs, this is a minor issue. It is also near impossible to keep on repeating all the details for every aspect of the case. If that were done, nobody would be able to wade through the pages. So, stop whining, cry baby!

Offline Gerry Down

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What does "OAKer" mean?

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Online Charles Collins

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This is the view that Brennan would have had. (Photo taken by Bill Brown, in 2004, at spot Brennan was standing at the time of the assassination.)


What would be nice is to have a photo that is in focus, taken on a sunny November 22 at 12:30 p.m., have the plexiglass removed from the opening at the lower part of the window, and have a shooter with a rifle in the same position that the assassin would have most likely been in when firing the shot that hit JFK’s head.

I can simulate what that would look like from various positions with my 3-D model. But an actual re-enactment would be better.


Online Michael T. Griffith

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If one is going to assume that Brennan was blessed with exceptional distance vision and that therefore he could clearly see the person's face clearly from a distance of nearly half a football field (40 yards), then one must explain why Brennan said the man fired while standing up, which would have been impossible because the window was partially open (no higher than about waist level).

Healthy young observers may have a binocular acuity superior to 6/6; the limit of acuity in the unaided human eye is around 6/3–6/2.4 (20/10–20/8), although 6/3 was the highest score recorded in a study of some US professional athletes.[26] Some birds of prey, such as hawks, are believed to have an acuity of around 20/2;[27] in this respect, their vision is much better than human eyesight.

"Healthy young observer"? Brennan was 44 on the day of the shooting, and he required glasses.

There is no way of telling the distance between the TSBD window sills and the interior floors when viewing from the exterior of the building. Brennan assumed LHO was standing. And he assumed wrong.

Oh, come on. If he could see the man clearly enough to clearly see his face, he should have been able to tell rather easily whether the man was standing or kneeling. Go read Brennan's testimony. Brennan did not "assume" the man was standing: he said "he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot."

I notice you did not address the point that Brennan said that the man did not rush off but lingered in the window for a bit, and that the man did not appear to be rushed at all--"he did not seem to be in any hurry." Nor did you address the point that Brennan said the man was wearing light-colored clothing, which is not the clothing that we know Oswald was wearing at work that day.

Here is another problem with Brennan's testimony, if you are using him to support the WC's story: Brennan said he could see "70 to 85 percent" of the rifle and that he saw no scope on the rifle.

So Brennan saw the wrong kind of rifle, saw a man dressed in the wrong color of clothing, and said the man lingered at the window as if trying to make sure he had hit his target and then casually stepped away. None of this fits with the WC's version of events.

Also, at first Brennan estimated that he was only 75 feet from the window, and then he said he "calculated" that he was 93 feet from the window. The FBI determined that Brennan was 120.2 feet from the window.

Just like I believe that Mark Lane assumed wrong about Brennan identifying himself to reporters on 11/22/63. There are other ways that his last name could have appeared in the DMN article on 11/23/63, which I have already explained.

Really? I mean, really? If you look at videos of interviews that reporters did with witnesses that day, you'll see that one of the first things the reporters did was, logically enough, to ask the person for their name. They asked them who they were and where they had been standing during the shooting. Just common sense. But you have to assume that not one of the reporters with whom Brennan spoke that day asked him for his name, and of course that Brennan did not volunteer his name.

And I ask again, why did Brennan volunteer the information to the DPD that same afternoon, in writing, that he believed he could recognize the man in the window if he saw him again, if he was so afraid for his life? If Brennan truly feared for his life, the last thing he would have done would have been to say such a thing. He would not have given any inkling that he could ID the guy if he saw him again.

And I notice that you still have not explained why it took the FBI several weeks to get Brennan to ID the man as Oswald. What took so long?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 12:34:03 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

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Online Charles Collins

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"Healthy young observer"? Brennan was 44 on the day of the shooting, and he required glasses.

Oh, come on. If he could see the man clearly enough to clearly see his face, he should have been able to tell rather easily whether the man was standing or kneeling. Go read Brennan's testimony. Brennan did not "assume" the man was standing: he said "he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot."

I notice you did not address the point that Brennan said that the man did not rush off but lingered in the window for a bit, and that the man did not appear to be rushed at all--"he did not seem to be in any hurry." Nor did you address the point that Brennan said the man was wearing light-colored clothing, which is not the clothing that we know Oswald was wearing at work that day.

Here is another problem with Brennan's testimony, if you are using him to support the WC's story: Brennan said he could see "70 to 85 percent" the rifle and that he saw no scope on the rifle.

So Brennan saw the wrong kind of rifle, saw a man dressed in the wrong color of clothing, and said the man lingered at the window as if trying to make sure he had hit his target and then casually stepped away. None of this fits with the WC's version of events.

Also, at first Brennan estimated that he was only 75 feet from the window, and then he said he "calculated" that he was 93 feet from the window. The FBI determined that Brennan was 120.2 feet from the window.

Really? I mean, really? If you look at videos of interviews that reporters did with witnesses that day, you'll see that one of the first things the reporters did was, logically enough, to ask the person for their name. They asked them who they were and where they had been standing during the shooting. Just common sense. But you have to assume that not one of the reporters with whom Brennan spoke that day asked him for his name, and of course that Brennan did not volunteer his name.

And I ask again, why did Brennan volunteer the information to the DPD that same afternoon, in writing, that he believed he could recognize the man in the window if he saw him again, if he was so afraid for his life? If Brennan truly feared for his life, the last thing he would have done would have been to say such a thing. He would not have given any inkling that he could ID the guy if he saw him again.

And I notice that you still have not explained why it took the FBI several weeks to get Brennan to ID the man as Oswald. What took so long?


Oh, come on. If he could see the man clearly enough to clearly see his face, he should have been able to tell rather easily whether the man was standing or kneeling. Go read Brennan's testimony. Brennan did not "assume" the man was standing: he said "he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot."


Brennan actually said: "Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
And, at the same moment, I was diving off of that firewall and to the right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher on the Houston side."


There is a difference in saying "it appeared to me he was standing up" and saying "he was standing up." Like I said earlier, there is no way to tell the distance between the window sills and the floors below them when viewing the TSBD from the outside. Brennan had no way of knowing that there is only about 12" of wall between the floor and the window sill. LHO was sitting on a box and was visible to Brennan when he leaned forward to look out the window. And he disappeared from Brennan's view when he simply sat up straight. He was positioned near the left side of the window when viewed from the interior. And the wall hid him from Brennan's view when he sat up straight. It is easy to believe that Brennan thought LHO walked away from the window when he disappeared from view. And therefore that could have been another reason that he assumed he must have been standing up. Just because Brennan assumed wrong about this particular aspect, it doesn't follow that he didn't get a good look at LHO.


I notice you did not address the point that Brennan said that the man did not rush off but lingered in the window for a bit, and that the man did not appear to be rushed at all--"he did not seem to be in any hurry." Nor did you address the point that Brennan said the man was wearing light-colored clothing, which is not the clothing that we know Oswald was wearing at work that day.

1. Brennan said: "As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared

So you think that an estimated 3-seconds worth of pausing and observing made it impossible for LHO to make it to the second floor lunchroom by the time Baker and Truly did???   Nonsense!

2. Have you ever considered that LHO was wearing a white t-shirt under the darker shirt, and that he might have removed the outer shirt because the sunlight streaming in the windows made him warm? Or that he did this because he wanted to change his appearance as part of his escape? The discarding of the jacket after the Tippit shooting would be a similar tactic. Your reasons for disbelieving Brennan are simply lame and can be easily explained away to anyone with an unbiased view.


Here is another problem with Brennan's testimony, if you are using him to support the WC's story: Brennan said he could see "70 to 85 percent" the rifle and that he saw no scope on the rifle.


Here is what Brennan said: Mr. BRENNAN. "I do not know if it had a scope or not"

This is an example of a detail that he simply was not paying attention to. I wouldn't expect Brennan or anyone else to remember every detail.



Really? I mean, really? If you look at videos of interviews that reporters did with witnesses that day, you'll see that one of the first things the reporters did was, logically enough, to ask the person for their name. They asked them who they were and where they had been standing during the shooting. Just common sense. But you have to assume that not one of the reporters with whom Brennan spoke that day asked him for his name, and of course that Brennan did not volunteer his name.

Before you can make that argument, you need to find a reporter that says he "interviewed" Brennan. The five sentences from the 11/23/63 DMN article: Dallas Morning News Saturday Nov 23, 1964 ---- The Assassin Crouched And Took Deadly Aim by Kent Biffle
"After the first shot, I looked up and saw him. The gun was sticking out of the window. I saw him fire a second time. He was a slender guy, a nice looking guy. He didn’t seem to be in no hurry.”  said Brennan.
don't indicate that Kent Biffle actually interviewed Brennan. In fact Biffle was in the motorcade and went into the TSBD with the first wave of cops. Then was locked inside the TSBD for most of the afternoon. Given all that I would guess that either those words could have been overheard by Hugh Aynesworth (who was outside the TSBD, nearby Brennan when he was talking to the police. Or they could have been leaked by the police to the DMN that evening.



And I ask again, why did Brennan volunteer the information to the DPD that same afternoon, in writing, that he believed he could recognize the man in the window if he saw him again, if he was so afraid for his life? If Brennan truly feared for his life, the last thing he would have done would have been to say such a thing. He would not have given any inkling that he could ID the guy if he saw him again.

He had not had time to think much, or for the fear to develop fully yet when he made that statement. I believe that Brennan's fear increased as the afternoon and evening progressed. The fact that there were FBI agents who were assigned to watch Brennan and explained that they were there to protect him. The fact that some TV commentators kept insisting that there "must have been a conspiracy" that afternoon and evening. Additionally, when you read what Brennan describes in his book, he was pissed off at the situation. His expectations for being able to go in and identify LHO while keeping his identity confidential had been totally demolished. And I can understand his reluctance to fully cooperate under those circumstances. I don't believe that he did the right thing. But I can understand why he did it.



And I notice that you still have not explained why it took the FBI several weeks to get Brennan to ID the man as Oswald. What took so long?


I don't believe that anything the FBI could have said to Brennan, after they let him down regarding his confidentiality during the lineup, could have convinced him to do the right thing. He was that upset. When LHO was murdered it was some relief, but not a complete release of his fears. Eventually, I believe that Brennan realized that he needed to do the right thing.