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Author Topic: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?  (Read 285667 times)

Offline Charles Collins

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #385 on: February 05, 2020, 05:12:37 PM »
And Ruth Paine testified that he never gave her any money for her help. No gas money, food nothing.

The claim that Oswald was some sort of FBI informant or CIA asset is simply not believable for me. Did they not pay him? Did the CIA not get him a job? If so, where did the money go? He never had a house, a car, a phone - anything. He ate very little, they had to rely on charity. He lived in terrible poverty once he came back to the US.

Sorry, this is not someone working for the CIA. It's simply not believable unless one thinks that this impoverished life was part of his cover. Which, of course, is the claim.


The WC calculated that LHO left New Orleans with about $215, and he had approximately $130 when he arrived in Dallas. The trip, including transportation, lodging, food, and miscellaneous expenses, had cost him a total of $85.

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #386 on: February 05, 2020, 06:08:21 PM »

The WC calculated that LHO left New Orleans with about $215, and he had approximately $130 when he arrived in Dallas. The trip, including transportation, lodging, food, and miscellaneous expenses, had cost him a total of $85.
So what did he do with the missing $85? If it wasn't spent on the Mexico City trip then where did he spend it?

He spent that summer in NO agitating/protesting on behalf of Castro. He's saving his money. Why? Marina explained why. His subsequent actions explain why.

Duran testified that he showed her his FPCC card and told her about his efforts on behalf of Castro. In effect, proving his "revolutionary" credentials in an attempt to persuade the Cubans to let him in (and if they did decide to let this supposed impostor in then what was the purpose of impersonating him? What does this impostor do next? Go and do what? Refuse to go? What is the end game here?)

The money, his activity on behalf of Castro, his long time adoration for Castro, he tells Marina about the plan (she goes to the USSR; he goes to Cuba; then he sends for her), eyewitness accounts, physical evidence, circumstantial evidence...it's a pretty long list. Yes, there are "gaps" - such as the account by Azcue - but if you weigh the evidence he went versus the evidence it wasn't him then it seems to me you have to conclude he did go.

Now the question is: Was he impersonated on any of the phone calls once he was there? But that's another question for another post/thread.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 08:13:16 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #387 on: February 05, 2020, 11:04:54 PM »
So what did he do with the missing $85? If it wasn't spent on the Mexico City trip then where did he spend it?

He spent that summer in NO agitating/protesting on behalf of Castro. He's saving his money. Why? Marina explained why. His subsequent actions explain why.

Duran testified that he showed her his FPCC card and told her about his efforts on behalf of Castro. In effect, proving his "revolutionary" credentials in an attempt to persuade the Cubans to let him in (and if they did decide to let this supposed impostor in then what was the purpose of impersonating him? What does this impostor do next? Go and do what? Refuse to go? What is the end game here?)

The money, his activity on behalf of Castro, his long time adoration for Castro, he tells Marina about the plan (she goes to the USSR; he goes to Cuba; then he sends for her), eyewitness accounts, physical evidence, circumstantial evidence...it's a pretty long list. Yes, there are "gaps" - such as the account by Azcue - but if you weigh the evidence he went versus the evidence it wasn't him then it seems to me you have to conclude he did go.

Now the question is: Was he impersonated on any of the phone calls once he was there? But that's another question for another post/thread.

Galbraith,

Why did Sylvia Duran and Eusebio Azcue (especially Azcue) both describe the "Oswald" at the Cuban consulate -- the man who had given Duran the taken-in-the-USSR passport-sized photos -- in such a way that perfectly described the physically distinctive (short, skinny, blond hair, blue eyes, 35 years old, very thin-faced) KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov, mentor to Raul Castro  and Che Guevara and "Third Secretary and Assistant Cultural Attache" at the Soviet embassy?

--  MWT  ;)

PS  And, as Peter Dale Scott points out at the end of John Newman's two-part March 18, 2018 YouTube "Spy Wars" presentation, there's a scrap of paper in CIA files indicating that the September 28 and October 1 "Oswald" spoke bad English and bad Russian over the phone.

My theory:  The KGB impersonator (Leonov?) spoke bad English naturally, and intentionally spoke bad Russian because he didn't realize how fluent Oswald was in that language.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 04:48:27 AM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Joffrey van de Wiel

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #388 on: February 06, 2020, 12:46:55 AM »

Supposedly he went there to get visa that would allow travel to the Soviet Union by way of Cuba.


LHO wasn't intending to go back to the Soviet Union. His intentions were to send Marina back there and for himself to stay in Cuba. (Ruth Paine's offer to take care of Marina & their kids temporarily solved that issue for him.) He prepared a resume to give to the Cubans to show his "credentials." Here are the notes he prepared while in New Orleans:

Page 1. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=361&tab=page

Page 2. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=362&tab=page

Page 3. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=363&tab=page

Page 4. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=364&tab=page

Page 5. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=365&tab=page

Page 6. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=366&tab=page

Page 7. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=367&tab=page

Page 8. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=368&tab=page

Page 9. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=369&tab=page

Page 10. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=370&tab=page




During interrogation on November 22, 1963, Oswald denied having visited Mexico City and I can find no plausible reason why he would lie about it, as it had nothing to do with the crimes of which he was accused.


Perhaps he realized that admitting visiting Mexico City would implicate his visit to the Cuban Consulate and he didn't want to tie the Cubans to the assassination. LHO reportedly not only denied it, but also got visibly upset (like he did when Hosty entered the interrogation) when his visit to Mexico City was brought up.


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LHO wasn't intending to go back to the Soviet Union. His intentions were to send Marina back there and for himself to stay in Cuba. (Ruth Paine's offer to take care of Marina & their kids temporarily solved that issue for him.) He prepared a resume to give to the Cubans to show his "credentials." Here are the notes he prepared while in New Orleans

Charles,

Thanks for posting Oswald's notes he made in preparation for the Mexico trip - but he overdid it. Silvia Duran became suspicious when he presented his communist, pro revolutionary Cuba credentials as can be seen here when she was being questioned by an investigator for the HSCA:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=954&search=silvia_duran#relPageId=39&tab=page

I never heard of the story that he planned to stay in Cuba while shipping Marina back to the USSR - did she know about it? What about the children? Please share the source for your statement so I can catch up on this (for me) new information?

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Perhaps he realized that admitting visiting Mexico City would implicate his visit to the Cuban Consulate and he didn't want to tie the Cubans to the assassination. LHO reportedly not only denied it, but also got visibly upset (like he did when Hosty entered the interrogation) when his visit to Mexico City was brought up.

Well, he could have omitted his visits to the Cuban and Soviet diplomatic compounds and admit having travelled to Mexico City as a tourist or something. He couldn't have known that the FBI, via the CIA, had already learned of his endeavors regarding the visa. Both agencies had enough information that would have warranted close surveillance, but that never happened which is in light of the tragic consequences a severe error of judgement.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 12:59:04 AM by Joffrey van de Wiel »

Offline Charles Collins

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #389 on: February 06, 2020, 01:35:20 AM »

Charles,

Thanks for posting Oswald's notes he made in preparation for the Mexico trip - but he overdid it. Silvia Duran became suspicious when he presented his communist, pro revolutionary Cuba credentials as can be seen here when she was being questioned by an investigator for the HSCA:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=954&search=silvia_duran#relPageId=39&tab=page

I never heard of the story that he planned to stay in Cuba while shipping Marina back to the USSR - did she know about it? What about the children? Please share the source for your statement so I can catch up on this (for me) new information?

Well, he could have omitted his visits to the Cuban and Soviet diplomatic compounds and admit having travelled to Mexico City as a tourist or something. He couldn't have known that the FBI, via the CIA, had already learned of his endeavors regarding the visa. Both agencies had enough information that would have warranted close surveillance, but that never happened which is in light of the tragic consequences a severe error of judgement.



Please share the source for your statement so I can catch up on this (for me) new information?


https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=49&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=50&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=51&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=52&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=53&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=54&tab=page


Please take notice that in LHO's letter (attached to Marina's letter) he requests that his visa be considered separately. Marina was unaware of the request for the separate visa until well after the assassination. LHO had told Marina he wanted to go back to Russia with her and the kid(s). But he had no such intentions as the resume he prepared for the Cubans and the separate letter show.

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #390 on: February 06, 2020, 01:49:18 AM »
The claim that Oswald was some sort of FBI informant or CIA asset is simply not believable for me. Did they not pay him? Did the CIA not get him a job? If so, where did the money go? He never had a house, a car, a phone - anything. He ate very little, they had to rely on charity. He lived in terrible poverty once he came back to the US.
Sorry, this is not someone working for the CIA. It's simply not believable unless one thinks that this impoverished life was part of his cover. Which, of course, is the claim.
What about the claim by Mr Alba owner of the garage next to the Reilly Co where Oswald worked?
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Alba gave an interview in the '70s stating that he saw Oswald regularly accepting white envelopes from G-men in what he knew to be FBI company cars as they entered or exited his garage. Alba recalled watching Oswald approach an FBI car outside the garage and receive a white envelope that was handed to him through a cracked window before concealing it under his shirt. Alba later said Oswald "met the car again a couple of days later and talked briefly with the driver," whom, as detailed in "JFK and the Unspeakable..." Alba knew as an "FBI agent visiting New Orleans from Washington." He further stated that he did not know the content of the envelopes. He explained to his interviewer that he had refused previous interviews or photos, even for money, because he was worried about the safety of his family. He refused to be filmed for the interview.   
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2365.msg75368.html#msg75368

There seems to be a lot of unbelievable stuff.
 Oswald might have had 2 or 3 grand when he left New Orleans but still... that does not prove he went to Mexico.
  Employees at the hotel and the nearby restaurant where he ate meals also said the man was Oswald.
 
 Can testimony on that be linked? These statements are repeated constantly without obvious support.
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Marina explained why.
The Commission guys could always count on Marina to state the desired results but it has long gone overboard with the incredible.
 
It still seems that Sylvia Odio got a better look at Oswald than anyone and yet her SWORN testimony remains ignored.
Perhaps he realized that admitting visiting Mexico City would implicate his visit to the Cuban Consulate and he didn't want to tie the Cubans to the assassination. LHO reportedly not only denied it, but also got visibly upset (like he did when Hosty entered the interrogation) when his visit to Mexico City was brought up.
Too much "perhaps" there. Where exactly is it that Oswald 'gets visibly upset' with this question?

Offline Joffrey van de Wiel

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #391 on: February 06, 2020, 01:52:13 AM »
Yes, that's what I understand too. When he arrived in Mexico City he went directly to the Cuban consulate in search of a transit visa not a regular visa: transit. He told Duran that his wife and family were going to the Soviet Union and he was going to join them. But he wanted to visit Cuba before returning and wanted a transit visa. Marina testified that he told her that he was going to go to Cuba and that she should go to the USSR. He then would (somehow) get them to come to Cuban once he was settled there.

When he was told by Duran that he needed to show a Soviet visa first before being given the Cuban transit visa he then went to the Soviet Embassy in search of one. According to the Soviets, he never actually filled out an application for one but asked them to expedite his previous request. And Soviet records indicate that they had made the decision earlier to turn down both Oswald's and Marina's requests for visas.

As to his denial: It's strange that supposedly he was framed for going to Mexico City by the FBI but then the FBI - Hosty - said he denied going there. That makes no sense. If they're framing him then why not say he admitted going there? He is dead; he cannot deny.

And if you believe Harry Holmes, the Dallas postal inspector who questioned Oswald on Sunday, Oswald admitted to him that he did visit Mexico City. I think Holmes' testimony here is very, very dubious.

Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?
Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?
Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw in Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the business about how mad it made him.
He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba.
Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.

-Steve-

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He told Duran that his wife and family were going to the Soviet Union and he was going to join them.

So HE DID want to return to the USSR? Don't you see that this course of action on the part of Oswald is not logical nor rational? Why would Marina want to return? Oswald spent 18 months in desperate efforts to get back to the USA, and  proclaims his distaste for the Soviet system, yet a little over a year later he wants to return? That does make no sense at all to me.

Oswald's IQ was about 118, the fact that his writings are a pain to read is because he was dyslectic. Yet this reasonable intelligent man, in many instances, always takes the least rational, logical decisions. Or so we are told. This leads me to believe that Lee was either a) deranged and detached from reality; or b) ordered or manipulated in some way by others to engage in activities that are an affront to logic and reason. Case in point: he complains to people about being harassed by the FBI, and what does he do? Does he lay low and keep a low profile? Of course not. He gets into this weird and partially fake FPCC stuff, picks a fight with anti-Castro Cubans, the police bust his Bahookie in jail and then he requests to speak to the FBI! That is not logical.

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When he was told by Duran that he needed to show a Soviet visa first before being given the Cuban transit visa he then went to the Soviet Embassy in search of one. According to the Soviets, he never actually filled out an application for one but asked them to expedite his previous request. And Soviet records indicate that they had made the decision earlier to turn down both Oswald's and Marina's requests for visas.

Another example of irrational behavior on Oswald's part. He needs the Soviet visa to get the Cuban visa in order to execute his plan. He doesn't even bother to fill out the damn form? What's the point in going through all this trouble to get to Mexico City and then fail to execute the necessary steps in order to complete his 'mission'?

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As to his denial: It's strange that supposedly he was framed for going to Mexico City by the FBI but then the FBI - Hosty - said he denied going there. That makes no sense. If they're framing him then why not say he admitted going there? He is dead; he cannot deny.

I do not know. Perhaps Hosty wasn't ín' on it? Speculation on my part, which leads nowhere.

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I think Holmes' testimony here is very, very dubious.

I agree. Oswald admitted that he had visited Mexico - Tijuana I think - while in the Marine Corps and with a fellow Marine. Can't remember the name of Lee's companion, I think it was a Spanish sounding name.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 01:23:31 PM by Joffrey van de Wiel »