Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?  (Read 80527 times)

Offline Joffrey van de Wiel

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 134
Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #376 on: February 05, 2020, 12:13:16 AM »
Advertisement
Oswald may or may not have traveled to Mexico City, but the reasons given make no sense as they are not logical nor rational or even reasonable. Supposedly he went there to get visa that would allow travel to the Soviet Union by way of Cuba. I have problems accepting this because of the following:

1) It is not logical. In January 1961 Oswald, while in Minsk,  wrote in his diary: "I am starting to reconsider my desire about staying. The work is drab, the money I get has nowhere to be spent. No nightclubs or bowling alleys, no places of recreation except the trade union dances. I have had enough."  Oswald started writing letters to the US embassy in Moscow almost begging to be allowed to return to the United States. He showed some concern about being prosecuted for his defection and had to secure a loan from the State Department to pay for the journey back. All this took 18 months - Oswald, now married and with a young daughter, returned to the USA in June, 1962.

It seems incredible to me that after going to great lengths to get back home, he would change his mind a little over a year later and try to return to the Soviet Union. That isn't rational.

2) In September 1963, Oswald was unemployed and had been for a while. He was so impoverished that he handed over the care for his pregnant wife and child to Ruth Paine - a sinister intelligence operative some believe, but in my view just a housewife with young children of her own. Anyway, he cashed a $30 unemployment check and left for Mexico City, where he applied for a visa at the Cuban Consulate. But how did he plan to get there with just the $30? Had he managed to save some money? Did he expect the Cuban government would make the same arrangements as the Soviets had in 1959-1962? Oswald's actions are again irrational and contrary to logical, reasonable actions.

3) During interrogation on November 22, 1963, Oswald denied having visited Mexico City and I can find no plausible reason why he would lie about it, as it had nothing to do with the crimes of which he was accused.

4) Both Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue and his Mexican secretary Mrs. Duran denied that the individual who applied for the visa was Oswald. Azcue told the HSCA that 'Oswald' was blond and gaunt, and Silvia Duran told author Anthony Summers, after viewing motion pictures of the real Oswald: "The man on the film is not like the man I saw here in Mexico City. . . . The man on this film speaks strongly and carries himself with confidence. The man who came to my office in Mexico City was small and weak and spoke in a trembling voice. " Like Consul Azcue, she described the visitor bearing Oswald's credentials as 'blond' and 'gaunt' and "short. . . about my size." Silvia Duran was about five feet, three inches tall—at least six inches shorter than the real Oswald.

To be fair and objective, other witnesses claimed that the person they'd observed was indeed Lee Oswald - these include the Soviet officials who dealt with him.

5) The Cuban Consulate and the Soviet Embassy were under 24-hour photo surveillance by the CIA's Mexico City station, and the phones were tapped. After the assassination, a tape recording of Oswald's phone call to the Soviet Embassy and a photo of him were provided to FBI agents in Dallas. But FBI director Hoover told new President Johnson:

LBJ:  Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?

Hoover:  No, that’s one angle that’s very confusing, for this reason—we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald’s name.  That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man’s voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there.

6) An argument in support of the Warren Report: if Oswald didn't visit Mexico City, where the heck did he go? No one saw him in Dallas or New Orleans, as far as I know, except Sylvia Odio - I am not sure about the date though.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #376 on: February 05, 2020, 12:13:16 AM »


Online Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3646
Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #377 on: February 05, 2020, 01:58:58 PM »
Oswald may or may not have traveled to Mexico City, but the reasons given make no sense as they are not logical nor rational or even reasonable. Supposedly he went there to get visa that would allow travel to the Soviet Union by way of Cuba. I have problems accepting this because of the following:

1) It is not logical. In January 1961 Oswald, while in Minsk,  wrote in his diary: "I am starting to reconsider my desire about staying. The work is drab, the money I get has nowhere to be spent. No nightclubs or bowling alleys, no places of recreation except the trade union dances. I have had enough."  Oswald started writing letters to the US embassy in Moscow almost begging to be allowed to return to the United States. He showed some concern about being prosecuted for his defection and had to secure a loan from the State Department to pay for the journey back. All this took 18 months - Oswald, now married and with a young daughter, returned to the USA in June, 1962.

It seems incredible to me that after going to great lengths to get back home, he would change his mind a little over a year later and try to return to the Soviet Union. That isn't rational.

2) In September 1963, Oswald was unemployed and had been for a while. He was so impoverished that he handed over the care for his pregnant wife and child to Ruth Paine - a sinister intelligence operative some believe, but in my view just a housewife with young children of her own. Anyway, he cashed a $30 unemployment check and left for Mexico City, where he applied for a visa at the Cuban Consulate. But how did he plan to get there with just the $30? Had he managed to save some money? Did he expect the Cuban government would make the same arrangements as the Soviets had in 1959-1962? Oswald's actions are again irrational and contrary to logical, reasonable actions.

3) During interrogation on November 22, 1963, Oswald denied having visited Mexico City and I can find no plausible reason why he would lie about it, as it had nothing to do with the crimes of which he was accused.

4) Both Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue and his Mexican secretary Mrs. Duran denied that the individual who applied for the visa was Oswald. Azcue told the HSCA that 'Oswald' was blond and gaunt, and Silvia Duran told author Anthony Summers, after viewing motion pictures of the real Oswald: "The man on the film is not like the man I saw here in Mexico City. . . . The man on this film speaks strongly and carries himself with confidence. The man who came to my office in Mexico City was small and weak and spoke in a trembling voice. " Like Consul Azcue, she described the visitor bearing Oswald's credentials as 'blond' and 'gaunt' and "short. . . about my size." Silvia Duran was about five feet, three inches tall—at least six inches shorter than the real Oswald.

To be fair and objective, other witnesses claimed that the person they'd observed was indeed Lee Oswald - these include the Soviet officials who dealt with him.

5) The Cuban Consulate and the Soviet Embassy were under 24-hour photo surveillance by the CIA's Mexico City station, and the phones were tapped. After the assassination, a tape recording of Oswald's phone call to the Soviet Embassy and a photo of him were provided to FBI agents in Dallas. But FBI director Hoover told new President Johnson:

LBJ:  Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?

Hoover:  No, that’s one angle that’s very confusing, for this reason—we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald’s name.  That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man’s voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there.

6) An argument in support of the Warren Report: if Oswald didn't visit Mexico City, where the heck did he go? No one saw him in Dallas or New Orleans, as far as I know, except Sylvia Odio - I am not sure about the date though.


Supposedly he went there to get visa that would allow travel to the Soviet Union by way of Cuba.


LHO wasn't intending to go back to the Soviet Union. His intentions were to send Marina back there and for himself to stay in Cuba. (Ruth Paine's offer to take care of Marina & their kids temporarily solved that issue for him.) He prepared a resume to give to the Cubans to show his "credentials." Here are the notes he prepared while in New Orleans:

Page 1. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=361&tab=page

Page 2. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=362&tab=page

Page 3. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=363&tab=page

Page 4. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=364&tab=page

Page 5. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=365&tab=page

Page 6. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=366&tab=page

Page 7. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=367&tab=page

Page 8. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=368&tab=page

Page 9. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=369&tab=page

Page 10. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=370&tab=page




During interrogation on November 22, 1963, Oswald denied having visited Mexico City and I can find no plausible reason why he would lie about it, as it had nothing to do with the crimes of which he was accused.


Perhaps he realized that admitting visiting Mexico City would implicate his visit to the Cuban Consulate and he didn't want to tie the Cubans to the assassination. LHO reportedly not only denied it, but also got visibly upset (like he did when Hosty entered the interrogation) when his visit to Mexico City was brought up.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 02:00:16 PM by Charles Collins »

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #378 on: February 05, 2020, 02:30:32 PM »

Supposedly he went there to get visa that would allow travel to the Soviet Union by way of Cuba.


LHO wasn't intending to go back to the Soviet Union. His intentions were to send Marina back there and for himself to stay in Cuba. (Ruth Paine's offer to take care of Marina & their kids temporarily solved that issue for him.) He prepared a resume to give to the Cubans to show his "credentials." Here are the notes he prepared while in New Orleans:

Page 1. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=361&tab=page

Page 2. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=362&tab=page

Page 3. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=363&tab=page

Page 4. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=364&tab=page

Page 5. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=365&tab=page

Page 6. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=366&tab=page

Page 7. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=367&tab=page

Page 8. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=368&tab=page

Page 9. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=369&tab=page

Page 10. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=370&tab=page




During interrogation on November 22, 1963, Oswald denied having visited Mexico City and I can find no plausible reason why he would lie about it, as it had nothing to do with the crimes of which he was accused.


Perhaps he realized that admitting visiting Mexico City would implicate his visit to the Cuban Consulate and he didn't want to tie the Cubans to the assassination. LHO reportedly not only denied it, but also got visibly upset (like he did when Hosty entered the interrogation) when his visit to Mexico City was brought up.
Yes, that's what I understand too. When he arrived in Mexico City he went directly to the Cuban consulate in search of a transit visa not a regular visa: transit. He told Duran that his wife and family were going to the Soviet Union and he was going to join them. But he wanted to visit Cuba before returning and wanted a transit visa. Marina testified that he told her that he was going to go to Cuba and that she should go to the USSR. He then would (somehow) get them to come to Cuban once he was settled there.

When he was told by Duran that he needed to show a Soviet visa first before being given the Cuban transit visa he then went to the Soviet Embassy in search of one. According to the Soviets, he never actually filled out an application for one but asked them to expedite his previous request. And Soviet records indicate that they had made the decision earlier to turn down both Oswald's and Marina's requests for visas.

As to his denial: It's strange that supposedly he was framed for going to Mexico City by the FBI but then the FBI - Hosty - said he denied going there. That makes no sense. If they're framing him then why not say he admitted going there? He is dead; he cannot deny.

And if you believe Harry Holmes, the Dallas postal inspector who questioned Oswald on Sunday, Oswald admitted to him that he did visit Mexico City. I think Holmes' testimony here is very, very dubious.

Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?
Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?
Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw in Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the business about how mad it made him.
He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba.
Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 03:17:37 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #378 on: February 05, 2020, 02:30:32 PM »


Offline Steve M. Galbraith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #379 on: February 05, 2020, 02:56:25 PM »
When did Silvia Duran deny the person was Oswald? Not once to my knowledge. Certainly not in her testimony. She testified that when she saw Oswald's picture in the newspaper the next day after the assassination, she told her husband this:

CORNWELL - Okay. Did you have any other discussion that you can recall with him [i.e., her husband] about it? based on that news report? About your contact?
TIRADO/DURAN - With my husband?
CORNWELL - Yes.
TIRADO/DURAN - I only told him, I think this man came to the Embassy.
CORNWELL - Then, the next morning you saw a newspaper.
TIRADO/DURAN - Yes.
CORNWELL - Were you sure at that time that that was the man?
TIRADO/DURAN - Yes.

Later:
TIRADO/DURAN - I show the paper to Horatio [her husband] and told him this is the man that went to the Embassy and I went to the Consulate and I look in the Archivos and I saw the application, I saw that it was the man and I went to the Embassy and I talked to the Ambassador and I told him that this...

Yes, her description of Oswald is off - she believed he was older, for example. But she has never, to my knowledge, denied that the person was Oswald. If someone has evidence she has, please provide it.

And Alfredo Mirabal, who was also in the consulate at the time, testified that the man was Oswald.

Duran's full testimony is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscadurn.htm

Offline Bill Chapman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6513
Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #380 on: February 05, 2020, 03:03:55 PM »
Anyway, he cashed a $30 unemployment check and left for Mexico City, where he applied for a visa at the Cuban Consulate. But how did he plan to get there with just the $30?

He could take a freakin' bus for a few bucks
In 2020 dollars, $30/1963 is $257
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 03:20:47 PM by Bill Chapman »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #380 on: February 05, 2020, 03:03:55 PM »


Offline Steve M. Galbraith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #381 on: February 05, 2020, 03:14:15 PM »
He could take a freakin'n bus for a few bucks
In 2020 dollars, $30 is $257
Marina testified that he told he he had saved some money from his previous checks (it seems that CIA paycheck he was earning never showed up).

The hotel he stayed at - Hotel del Comercio - reportedly cost $1.28 a day. Sounds like just a great place to stay. Employees at the hotel - Corrected/not true. But a waiter at the nearby restaurant where he ate meals (they cost 40 to 48 cents) said the man was Oswald. And I guess the exchange rate for American dollars was very good.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 06:58:41 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline Jerry Freeman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3724
Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #382 on: February 05, 2020, 03:20:46 PM »
Yes, that's what I understand it too. When he arrived in Mexico City he went directly to the Cuban consulate in search of a transit visa.
He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba.
Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.
And if you believe Harry Holmes, the Dallas postal inspector who questioned Oswald on Sunday, Oswald admitted to him that he did visit Mexico City. I think Holmes' testimony here is very, very dubious.
By his own admission...Harry Holmes was perched up over in the Terminal Annex Bldg watching the assassination with his binoculars. Weird huh?
Quote
Tuesday, 17 December 2019 05:17
Oswald's Last Letter: The Scorching Hot Potato

Written by Paul Bleau
Paul Bleau reveals the scorching hot potato that is Oswald's last letter to the Soviet Embassy and how the Warren Commission and HSCA attempted to sweep it under the rug.
In JFK: the Cuba Files, a thorough analysis of five bizarre letters, that were written before the assassination in order to position Oswald as a Castro asset, is presented. It is difficult to sidestep them the way the FBI did. The FBI argued that they were all typed from the same typewriter, yet supposedly sent by different people. Which indicated to them that it was a hoax, perhaps perpetrated by Cubans wanting to encourage a U.S. invasion.
 It incriminates Oswald in the following passage: “I am informing you that the matter you talked to me about the last time that I was in Mexico would be a perfect plan and would weaken the politics of that braggart Kennedy, although much discretion is needed because you know that there are counter-revolutionaries over there who are working for the CIA.”
Cuba is linked to the assassination in all of the letters. In two of them, an alleged Cuban agent is clearly implicated in having planned the crime. However, the content of the letters, written before the assassination, suggested that the authors were either “a person linked to Oswald or involved in the conspiracy to execute the crime.”
https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-s-last-letter-the-scorching-hot-potato

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #382 on: February 05, 2020, 03:20:46 PM »


Online Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3646
Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #383 on: February 05, 2020, 03:51:59 PM »
Marina testified that he told he he had saved some money from his previous checks (it seems that CIA paycheck he was earning never showed up).

The hotel he stayed at - Hotel del Comercio - reportedly cost $1.28 a day. Sounds like just a great place to stay. Employees at the hotel and the nearby restaurant where he ate meals (they cost 40 to 48 cents) also said the man was Oswald. And I guess the exchange rate for American dollars was very good.

The bus ticket from Nuevo Laredo at the Texas-Mexico border to Mexico City cost LHO 71.40 pesos ($5.71). The WC concluded that LHO began the month of September with $183.21 cash in hand. He skipped paying his rent and utilities bills that month.