The missing witness on Book Depository Stairway


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Offline Bruce Backlund

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Re: The missing witness on Book Depository Stairway
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2018, 04:48:19 PM »
Thanks Zeon,
That is the film of Baker I was referring to. You can see the mass confusion. This had to be seconds within the last shot, and Baker is moving fast! The only delay on the first floor was when Truly and Baker discovered the elevators unusable. But that would have been only a few seconds until they were ascending up the stairs. Yes, it's possible Oswald could have reached the 2nd-floor landing, heard voices and commotion at the bottom of the first-floor entry to the stairs, and "ducked" into the lunchroom, but this is really pushing it.

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Re: The missing witness on Book Depository Stairway
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2018, 04:48:19 PM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: The missing witness on Book Depository Stairway
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2018, 08:11:26 AM »
Inconsistences and anomalies inherent in the WC sequence for Oswald movements in TSBD between 11:45 and the presumed exit at 12:34pm:


1. Oswald not taking elevator down with Charles Givens, even though Oswald had just requested elevator be sent back up just 5 minutes earlier at 11:45?

2. Oswald choosing to use 6 flights of 18 step staircases to arrive to the same destination Givens is using elevator to get to: the 1st floor. at 12:00

3. Oswald having just descended 6 flights stairs, just to tell Eddie Piper "Im going back up"? Or did he say "im going out?

4. Oswald not seen between 12:01 and 12:14 anywhere. Where was Oswald at this time?

5. Oswald seen by Carolyn Arnold at 12:15 in the 2nd floor lunchroom, while at approx the same time, Arnold Rowland is observing a man holding rifle with large scope, in the fully open SW 6th floor TSBD corner window.


This is one of biggest conflicts in the entire sequence and is not resolved, because Carolyn Arnold was not asked some specific question, such as : Did you notice the clock on the wall in the 2nd floor lunchroom. And it is uncertain if the clocks in 2nd floor lunchroom and 2nd floor offices, were in sync with the TSBD roof clock.

Nevertheless, we are left with a peculiarity at the least:  Either Oswald was spotted by Carolyn Arnold 1st, in 2nd floor lunchroom, and then 2 min later, seen at the SW 6th floor corner window by Rowland. Or vis versa, Rowland spots Oswald 1st, on 6th floor, and then 2 min later, Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the lunchroom.


If Carolyn Arnold spotted Oswald 1st, what is Oswald doing in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15, if he has no idea exactly when the JFK limo will arrive?
 

If Arnold Rowland spotted Oswald 1st, then Oswald then leaves the 6th floor, leaves his rifle somewhere on the 6th floor, and then goes all way back down to 2nd floor lunchroom. Why do that, when it would have been much easier to hide on the 7th floor stairwell, so as to know exactly when and if, Bonnie Ray Williams leaves the 6th floor?

6. Oswald not seen between 12:17 to 12:31:30 except for one witness with dubious claim after having stated earlier could not ID the shooter, Howard Brennan.


7. 90 sec posts shots, Baker and Truly see Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom. Oswald appears calm not out breath, nor perspiring, even though presumable just having run 180 ft on 6th floor, down 4 flights of 18 step staircase and traversing 80 ft of floor landings.


Now is the 2nd major conflict: How did Oswald manage to get past Dorothy Garner near the 4th floor staircase, she having just followed about 20sec behind Adams and Styles leaving 4th flloor office within approx 10 sec post shots? It a reasonable certain probability that A&S reached the 1st floor by 60 sec post shots, otherwise, would have been seen by Baker and Truly crossing 1st floor to rear elevators by 70 sec post shots.


The only possible resolution would be that Dorothy Garner waited at least 55 sec post shots before having exited the 4th floor office. This however, would be a major conflict with her statement of having followed Adams and Styles  "almost immediately" and "right behind them" and also apparently "heard them" on the staircase.


8. 2 min post shots: Oswald seen entering rear door of 2nd floor office by Mrs Robert A. Reid, BY HERSELF ALONE!  No one else saw Oswald exit the front door of the 2nd floor office, or walk down the hallway, or come down either front staircase to front lobby or use rear staircase to 1st floor. Oswald was only wearing a T-shirt, did not have his brown shirt nor jacket, even though 20 secs eariler, was seen by Baker with at least a brown shirt on.


This the 3rd biggest conflict, and is almost incredible if it is even possible, given that Mrs Reid was NOT THE ONLY ONE, who returned into TSBD before 2min post shots, yet NO ONE saw Oswald except Mrs Reid???? How could Oswald have gone down either back staircase or down front staircase, and not be seen on 1st floor by anyone. How,if it takes Oswald 3 min 30 sec to even reach front lobby, having had to return to lunchroom to get his brown shirt and jacket, that Oswald is not seen, yet able to get thru guarded doors?











« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 08:23:02 AM by Zeon Mason »

Offline Bruce Backlund

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Re: The missing witness on Book Depository Stairway
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2018, 05:19:49 PM »
The government as much as admitted no one heard or saw anyone or any activity on the rear stairway that day. This old Star-Telegram clipping indicates a "porter" on the fifth floor heard footsteps coming down from the sixth floor. Never any proof of this or the identity of the porter. As far as I know, three men were on the fifth floor and no one heard anybody walking down the stairs! I have read reports however of two of the three hiding behind boxes when police came UP the stairs.



Apparently, per the FBI report below, Douglas Givens, not Eddie Piper was the so-called "porter" in the February Star-Telegram story. Interestingly, Givens appears to have had a pending Marijuana rap, and his testimony in the activities inside  TSBD that day could prove favorable to him in the future!
BB

« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 08:05:50 PM by Bruce Backlund »

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Re: The missing witness on Book Depository Stairway
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2018, 05:19:49 PM »


Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: The missing witness on Book Depository Stairway
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2018, 06:20:58 PM »
 Sure looks like Victoria Adams in the photo from Tony Again anyone now of something that looks like a timeline with so many players Also a lot of great graphics are seen here but I have not seen a configuration of the relevant portions of the TSBD ? It is of course 3D and I imagine it makes it more difficult I am grateful on what is shared here and I am not trying to complain by any means But for the lay public to understand the two stairways, elevator, etc and all the players it is pretty tough, without more of a physical understanding
 

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: The missing witness on Book Depository Stairway
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2018, 12:38:10 AM »
Its really just a logical deduction that V.Adams and Styles HAD to have reached the 1st floor not later than 65 sec post shots, otherwise, there is no way to not have been seen by Baker and Truly who by 70 sec post shots are crossing the 1st floor diagonally from leaving the front desk area, thus have potential line of sight to the rear staircases.


If it is true that Billy Lovelady and Bill Truly have just come back into TSBD, at approx. 70 sec post shots, there was a near miss meeting with Adams/Styles on 1st floor. A&S must have exited the immediate roll up door beside the West elevator approx. 65 sec post shots,   while Lovelady and Shelly had entered TSBD 1st floor from the West side entrance, approx.70 sec post shots..seen by Baker and Truly near the elevators  approx. 75 sec post shots. This would be the point then that Truly would have told Lovelady to guard elevators. Otherwise, its nots going to be until 8 min post shots at the earliest that Truly would see Lovelady or Shelly again, since Truly and Baker are on the TSBD roof for about 5 minutes, then stop their elevator descending from roof top, on the 4th floor for several minutes more.

Offline Bruce Backlund

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Re: The missing witness on Book Depository Stairway
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2018, 04:38:11 PM »
Victoria Adams, believed to be the lady in Turquoise dress with black collar, outside TSBD on November 22nd. Unfortunately, does not tell us how early she got out of the building, but by the looks of the plain-clothes officers in the doorway, photo was probably taken closer to 1 pm, before she was allowed to reenter. This is Willis #8 slide.
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« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 04:42:11 PM by Bruce Backlund »

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Re: The missing witness on Book Depository Stairway
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2018, 04:38:11 PM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: The missing witness on Book Depository Stairway
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2018, 06:36:25 AM »
Jack Dougherty WC testimony suggests he had returned WEST elevator from 6th floor to 5th floor BEFORE shooting begins. He did not take it to 6th floor after that. JD took the West elevator directly from 5th floor to 1st floor just after shots fired.

Therefore the West elevator was taken DURING the ascent of B/T up the rear staircases after B/T met Oswald in 2nd floor lunchroom approx. 90 sec post shots.


If the West elevator was taken by JD  just AS Baker and Truly begin their ascent up the 4th floor staircase, and the West Elevator travels at speed of 7sec/floor, then it is possible for B/T to have missed seeing the West elevator, or anyone on it,


However, it is not so readily apparent why Baker nor Truly did not notice cables moving thru the open West elevator shaft. when they reach the 5th floor just about 10 sec after being seen by Mrs Garner on 4th floor since the West elevator would still be descending to 1st floor.

And neither did Dorothy Garner nor other office women who  joined her after Baker/Truly ascended to 5th floor, saw the West elevator going down just after B/T left 4th floor or anytime after B/T took 5th floor EAST elevator to the rooftop of TSBD.


There is no indication in Jack Dougherty WC WHEN exactly he returned using staircases after he supposedly spoke to Eddie Piper, except for a reference to meeting an FBI agent who asked JD to go look for Mr.Truly:

Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.
Mr. BALL - Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and .by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gum and shells.
Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the fourth floor, which I didn't find.


Mr.Ball implys JD must have been rather late, when JC actually gets to the 6th floor, this would be at least after 1:22pm then if JD does not get to 6th floor until ""after found the shotgun and shells"


And is kind of strange that BALL would say "shotgun" instead of "rifle"















« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 06:39:16 AM by Zeon Mason »

 

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