JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Matt Grantham on April 21, 2018, 10:32:46 PM
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http://garyrevel.com/jfk/girlonstairs.html
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http://garyrevel.com/jfk/girlonstairs.html
The missing witness on Book Depository Stairway? How was she missing? She was on the stairs. Just much later than she recalled.
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The missing witness on Book Depository Stairway? How was she missing? She was on the stairs. Just much later than she recalled.
The assassination would be great time stamp for most people
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The missing witness on Book Depository Stairway? How was she missing? She was on the stairs. Just much later than she recalled.
"The Boss" Garner allegedly seeing Styles and Adams going Down the stairs, and After that seeing Officer Baker and Roy Truly coming Up the stairs, at a minimum Time Stamps these 2 Events with relation to each. Garner corroborating/time stamping the Adams WC Testimony would have been difficult if not impossible for the WC lawyers to get around. This makes it obvious as to why Garner was not called to testify before the WC.
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Mr. BELIN - Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.
Seems a little derisive
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Can you explain Tim, how neither Lovelady nor Shelley recall seeing or hearing neither Victoria nor Sandra on the first floor at any time post shots?
Can you explain Tony, how Lovelady and Shelley could have recalled remaining on the steps of the building for three to four minutes after the shooting?
rom the official WC testimony Victoria supposedly spoke to both men yet neither recall this event despite Lovelady demonstrating ESP-like qualities during his testimony.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. BALL - What is her full name?
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know.
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams?
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so.
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw?
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear.
Mr. BALL - Where was the girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people on the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in.
Mr. BALL - And you stayed on the first floor then?
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.
Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.
Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember.
Mr. BALL - You don't.
Mr. SHELLEY - No.
Compare that to:
Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
Mr. BELIN - Between the time you got off the stairs and the time you got to this point when you say you encountered them, which was somewhat to the south and a little bit east of the front of the east elevator, did you see any other employees there?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Any other people prior to the time you saw them?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS - Nothing.
How could this be? The two men that apparently Victoria saw and spoke to on the first floor do not recall this event despite both men recalling speaking to Calvary?
Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
Mr. BALL - Who was this girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - Gloria Calvary.
Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
How come neither Lovelady and Shelley recall Victoria saying:
Mr. BELIN - Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I said I believed the President was shot.
There is something seriously remiss with the Adams/Lovelady/Shelley encounter.
Yet - hoping that no one would ever read the WC testimonies -the WR stated:
"On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams."
Commission, Warren; House Select Committee on Assassinations; Assassination Records Review Board; U.S. Government. Complete Guide to the 1963 JFK Assassination: The Full Text of Three Major Reports - Warren Commission, House Select Committee, and the Assassination Records Review Board - President John F. Kennedy (Kindle Location 2842). Progressive Management. Kindle Edition.
Just how could the WR state this when Lovelady said no such thing?
Yet, all Mr Belin had to do was call up Sandra Styles and Dorothy Garner to resolve this.
He did neither.
However, we know why he chose not to do so. This was a territory Mr Belin ignored to pursue.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/6rh7dc.jpg)
Mr David Belin, You are the Jury
"Our frame of reference was established in our first meeting with our
chairman, Chief Justice Warren. Regardless of what we found, regardless of
how the chips might fall, the Chief Justice said, our only concern was for the
truth. We took him at his word. "Truth is our only goal," he said.
The key word was "only." To be sure, in a trial, when examining or
cross-examining a witness, I was always concerned with the truth-"the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God." But my concern
was never merely for the sake of the truth itself.
He did not "find the Truth" but took the easy way out by failing to call up Sandra and Dorothy, failing to include Victoria in a timed reconstruction and failing to act on the Stroud Letter.
Who was the girl that Lovelady encountered on the first floor?
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The assassination would be great time stamp for most people
You might think so but you'd be wrong.
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"The Boss" Garner allegedly seeing Styles and Adams going Down the stairs, and After that seeing Officer Baker and Roy Truly coming Up the stairs, at a minimum Time Stamps these 2 Events with relation to each. Garner corroborating/time stamping the Adams WC Testimony would have been difficult if not impossible for the WC lawyers to get around. This makes it obvious as to why Garner was not called to testify before the WC.
Garner never saw Styles and Adams going down the stairs.
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(https://i.imgur.com/i6Edb8x.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/i1XhwUp.png)
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You might think so but you'd be wrong.
How so? We kind of go round and round with unsupported allegations If you could provide rationale for your proclamations I would appreciate it
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How so? We kind of go round and round with unsupported allegations If you could provide rationale for your proclamations I would appreciate it
It's just not. Most witness time recollections were not very accurate at all.
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Quote from: Matt Grantham on Today at 02:33:13 AM
The assassination would be great time stamp for most people
You might think so but you'd be wrong.
Agree..not everyone in and around the TSBD knew what had happened when it happened.
There is a film where a guy walks away from the front steps of the building and looks puzzled [like what just occurred?]
I believe he was none other than Lee Harvey Oswald ...can't see the face too well but from the back...shirt, hair, walk, body shape sure does appear very very similar......
Appears at 6:25 in the video.
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Garner never saw Styles and Adams going down the stairs.
Just like you don't have to see it rain, to know that it has rained when everything outside is wet, Garner doesn't have to actually see them going down the stairs to know that they have left the floor and thus have gone down the stairs.
It's just not. Most witness time recollections were not very accurate at all.
That may be but the timing is provided by Garner's observation that she saw Truly and Baker come up after the girls went down. No time recollection involved in that one.
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Just like you don't have to see it rain, to know that it has rained when everything outside is wet, Garner doesn't have to actually see them going down the stairs to know that they have left the floor and thus have gone down the stairs.
Kinda like Dirty Harvey* entering the TT
*Smith, Wesson, and Lee
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Just like you don't have to see it rain, to know that it has rained when everything outside is wet, Garner doesn't have to actually see them going down the stairs to know that they have left the floor and thus have gone down the stairs.
Just because everything outside is wet doesn't mean that it rained.
That may be but the timing is provided by Garner's observation that she saw Truly and Baker come up after the girls went down. No time recollection involved in that one.
The timing provided by "Garner's observation" doesn't fit. It has Baker and Truly reaching the fourth floor much later than they did.
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Ah this nugget from you Tim ;)
What you didn't mention was that there were THREE versions of her WC testimony.
All her changes that she made on that document were NOT incorporated in the published WC volumes HOWEVER the changes made by Mr Belin WERE.
How do you explain that one Tim?
Further, the original stenographic notes and recordings of Adams, Lovelady and Shelley are GONE from the NA. Coincidence?
Why did she even see her WC testimony when she said this?
Mr. BELIN - Miss ADAMS, you have the opportunity if you would like, to read this deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive the signing of it and just let the court reporter send it directly to us. Do you have any preference?
Miss ADAMS - I think I will let you use your own discretion.
Mr. BELIN - It doesn't make any difference to us. If it doesn't make any difference, we can waive it and you won't have to make another trip down here.
Miss ADAMS - That is all right.
Hence, WTF (likely) Mr Belin paying a visit with her WC transcript at her work for?
However, it actually was fortuitous because we have the Stroud document as a result where CLEARLY it supported her version of events.
Unbelievable that Mr David Belin simply couldn't work out her (and Sandra's) timing down the NW stairwell.
There was only one version that she notated and signed. That's the one that matters here.
I don't feel compelled to explain why her corrections were ignored by the Warren Commission.
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Said who?
The FBI?
Mr David Belin?
Who?
Victoria Adams, when she referred to encountering Lovelady and Shelley upon reaching the first floor.
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Correct - but how did Dorothy know they did Tim?
According to Barry Ernest, she heard them on the stairs.
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It is interesting Tim, that BOTH Lovelady and Shelley had no recollection of this first floor "encounter" with Adams just several months later.
So if you believe in Victoria's "recollection" of seeing and speaking with Lovelady and Shelley how come both men don't support her version of events?
Memory loss by both Lovelady and Shelley? ;D
Lovelady and Shelley both recalled remaining on the steps of the building for three to four minutes after the shooting. Memory loss by both Lovelady and Shelley?
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That version wasnt what was officially published, hence is null and void. You do not know the circumstances on what she read and when she saw her WC testimony years later she had no recollections of seeing Lovelady and Shelley's name.
I can give you an example where ONE error was changed and included in someone else's WC testimony. So why bother asking for her to read the document, sign it and then fail to incorporate the changes?
Haven't you read the memos that were sent out to the WC staffers and how they were to treat testimony and changes?
What you fail to comprehend was that neither Adams nor Styles were key material witnesses as neither saw anyone on the NW stairwell when they used them.
Why the bother with Adams then? She wasnt the key material witness - Dorothy Garnerwas.
Why didn't Mr David Belin call up Garner in order to sort this out?
How is it null and void Tony? She signed it and notated it. In doing so, she confirmed that she did indeed testify that she encountered Lovelady and Shelley upon reaching the first floor.
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There was only one version that she notated and signed. That's the one that matters here.
I don't feel compelled to explain why her corrections were ignored by the Warren Commission.
You can't prove that she notated the page that mentions Lovelady and Shelley. She said that she did not encounter them.
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Wasn't used Tim. Hence one can call into question the ENTIRE document and its origins.
The Stroud document lists all of the corrections of which NONE were implemented.
What does this suggest to you Tim?
By your logic, the Stroud document is null and void. Therefore, I guess we just go with what the WC published, right? Adams encountered Lovelady and Shelley upon reaching the first floor.
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The Adams, Styles, Lovelady and Shelly meeting was used by the WC to decide when Adams and Styles descended
You have one out of four people in an encounter, recorded as having reported it occurring, and that one person now denies that it occurred and insist that the record was altered.
No one else, even with prompting from counsel, can remember it.
The Stroud document has Garner giving a testimony that would invalidate a late descent.
There were 4 women together on the 4th floor, 2 of them descend. It just beggars belief that the other two woman weren't officially used to confirm when the descent occurred.
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Tim,
The Stroud document is an official document from the United States Attorney that was signed and addressed to Rankin.
Why weren't the contents of that document actioned by the WC? In the letter was a crucial piece of information involving a TSBD employee which may have potentially resulted in the identification of the assasin.
The multi million dollar blue chip panel did nothing to resolve this. Or the contents of the Stroud document were not forwarded on.
Why Tim?
The Stroud document is no more of an official document than the transcript copy that Victoria Adams notated and signed.
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The Adams, Styles, Lovelady and Shelly meeting was used by the WC to decide when Adams and Styles descended
You have one out of four people in an encounter, recorded as having reported it occurring, and that one person now denies that it occurred and insist that the record was altered.
No one else, even with prompting from counsel, can remember it.
The Stroud document has Garner giving a testimony that would invalidate a late descent.
There were 4 women together on the 4th floor, 2 of them descend. It just beggars belief that the other two woman weren't officially used to confirm when the descent occurred.
The encounter with Lovelady and Shelley does rule out an early descent. CTs get themselves all worked up over things like that. And for nothing really. The fact is that an early descent by Adams and Styles would do nothing to exonerate Oswald. If they had descended early, they would have been traveling very rapidly down those wooden stairs and making a lot of noise in the process. Oswald would have simply followed down behind them, unseen and unheard by anyone.
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(http://i67.tinypic.com/6rh7dc.jpg)
"Across its top was the handwritten notation, ?Adams, Vicki.? The single sheet was a copy of a registered letter sent by airmail to J. Lee Rankin in Washington. It was signed by Martha Joe Stroud, an assistant U.S. attorney, on behalf of Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney for Dallas. 1 The date typed under its Department of Justice letterhead was June 2, 1964. Miss Stroud was forwarding to Rankin a copy of Miss Adams? signed deposition, taken less than two months earlier, on April 7, in that same office by Commission counsel David Belin. During the intervening time, the official transcript of her questioning had been prepared and then shown to Miss Adams. In her letter to Rankin, Miss Stroud listed half a dozen errors Miss Adams had identified in her testimony and wanted corrected. 2 As a way of refreshing Rankin?s memory, Miss Stroud wrote, ?Mr. Bellin [sic] was questioning Miss Adams about whether or not she saw anyone as she was running down the stairs.? 3 It was Miss Stroud?s next sentence, the final one in the text, that punched me in the gut. ?Miss Garner, Miss Adams? supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up.? 4
Ernest, Barry. Girl on the Stairs, The (Kindle Locations 4088-4099). Pelican Publishing. Kindle Edition.
Now tell me Tim, if you were Mr Belin would you have investigated the matter re Garner further?
If not, why not?
The corrections listed in the Stroud document are found in the signed copy of Adams' deposition transcript.
If I were Belin and was aware of the Garner statement then I would have investigated the matter. I doubt that Belin was aware of the statement.
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Except - Mr Belin didn't believe Adam's account of an immediate exit down the NW stairwell. She was discredited despite neither Lovelady and Shelley supporting her "version" of events. The WR LIED when it stated that Lovelady saw Victoria Adams on the first floor.
Neither Adams nor Styles were key material witnesses but their early descent proved that neither Baker nor Truly had entered the NW stairwell until AFTER both woman had exited. Further the lifts were not operating immediately post shots.
The issue that the WC completely avoided was the remaining SIX women on the Fourth floor.
Staggering when one considers this:
Mr. DULLES. There were some people on the fourth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women standing in the window, looking out the window.
How could a senior member of the WC not know that there were EIGHT women on the 4th floor - a point that Lee had to cross on the landing in order to go down to the third floor?
Consider that Garner heard Adams and Styles go down the stairwell.
So where was Garner? There was a row of windows along the WESTERN wall to observe the rail yard. The WESTERN wall ran alongside the NW stairwell.
Did Garner hear or see anyone come down the NW stairwell? No.
Where do think Garner thought the shots had come from?
"I thought at the time the shots or reports came from a point to the west of the building".
FBI Statement
Dallas, Texas
March 20, 1964
If she followed Adams and Styles out into the open floor where do you think she placed herself to view the rail yard?
The WR did NOT lie when it stated that Lovelady saw Victoria Adams on the first floor.
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(https://i.imgur.com/i1XhwUp.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/i6Edb8x.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qroBlRL.jpg)
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Anthony,
There were EIGHT women on the fourth floor and only Adams was called up.
Neither lovelady nor Shelley support Adams "recollections" which in itself is significant.
There is nothing anywhere that indicated that lee was even up on the 6th floor or went into the NW stairwell post shots.
Nothing.
We have long debated the WC Hoax of Oswald coming down those stairs and then ducking into the 2nd Floor Lunchroom. Same goes for Officer Baker spotting Oswald attempting this Shuck-N-Jive. This WC chain of lies repeatedly collapses when looked at closely.
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Which was an enclosure along with the Stroud letter. None of her changes were incorporated yet the changes done by Mr Belin were.
So what? That doesn't negate the fact that she notated and signed the transcript.
I doubt that Belin was aware of the statement.
Who questioned Dorothy Garner?
I don't know who questioned Garner. The Stroud document doesn't say who did.
Don't you think that one requires more than just speculation to point a finger at Lee Harvey Oswald as being an assassin and coming down the NW stairwell post shots?
There's much much more than just speculation that points to Lee Harvey Oswald as being the assassin who came down the NW stairwell post shots.
Name one person who saw or heard anyone come down the NW stairwell within 2 minutes post shots?
So, you're conceding that Adams and Styles didn't come down the NW stairwell within 2 minutes post shots?
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What the HELL are you smoking Tim? Seriously :(
Couldn't swear = I have NFI who I saw. A defense attorney would of chewed and spat out Lovelady on a comment like that.
I just don't know with you Tim.
Courts don't deal with "I couldn't swear to statements" That is completely non-committal.
The WR strung the bow of BS so tight it snapped.
Not only that, but there was no mention of a Vickie in the recorded testimony before Lovelady said "I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie". So what did Ball say to Lovelady off the record about Vickie beforehand?
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No only that, but there was no mention of a Vickie in the recorded testimony before Lovelady said "I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie". So what did Ball say to Lovelady off the record about Vickie beforehand?
Sign of obvious collusion. There was absolutely no reason for him to say "I wouldn't swear it was Vickie".
It's little gems like this which blow the whole story apart.
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The corrections listed in the Stroud document are found in the signed copy of Adams' deposition transcript.
If I were Belin and was aware of the Garner statement then I would have investigated the matter. I doubt that Belin was aware of the statement.
I doubt that Belin was aware of the statement.
Tim,
Is it your argument that the Warren Commission investigation was so incompetent that it's own lawyers were kept in the dark about evidentiary information pertinent to their investigation?
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The Stroud document was REGISTERED as well. What was the reason Garner was not called up to testify?
The WC was No different than the HSCA and their Louie Steven Witt skit with the collapsing Umbrella. Both were nothing but Dog-N-Pony shows. Fortunately, whenever the Deep State is Forced to add novices such as Lovelady to their cast, the results mirror Toto accidentally revealing the man behind the curtain.
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We can now see the shenanigans that were played out because we have the majority of the documents to read and assimilate. Who was aware of the Stroud document back in 64 and when the HSCA was on?
If it wasnt for Barry in 1999 - no one would be the wiser at all. Yet there it is which could have completely changed the outcome of the investigation.
Now we are getting into the many mysterious deaths surrounding this case. Had someone like Barry come forward back-in-the-day, he would have immediately departed this Earth one way or another. The reason we Now have previously unavailable info is due to those being revealed are now gone. And yeah, I do believe that Bush Sr at a bare minimum Knows how the JFK Assassination went down. ALL CIA Director's from 11/22/63 going forward know with detail how this operation was pulled off. To them, this is a 54+ year crowning achievement.
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The Stroud document was REGISTERED as well. What was the reason Garner was not called up to testify?
It wasn't feasible for them to call up every single person who was in Dealey Plaza that day. The Garner statement was made very late in the investigation. There was no time or need to call her up. The Deposition of Victoria Adams was sufficient. And even that testimony wasn't necessary.
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It wasn't feasible for them to call up every single person who was in Dealey Plaza that day.
Is that what we're now calling the cherry-picking of witnesses who support the predetermined narrative?
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Has anyone figured out when Leavelle's "fire at headquarters" happened that destroyed Adams' file?
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http://garyrevel.com/jfk/girlonstairs.html
Matt,
Thanks for posting the following-up link to "The Girl on The Stairs" book. Excellent book I bought about 3 years ago. I think Oswald was indeed around the first floor about 12:30 pm. Took the FRONT stairway to the second floor, walked down that hallway and was seen through the door window just as he was entering the lunchroom. Neither Truly or the cop said he had a Coke in his hand, but Mrs. Reid did notice a Coke in his hand when she came back into her office. There was a Pepsi machine on the first floor, not Coke. In other words, Oswald was telling the truth. That leaves the problem of how one or two unknown gunmen escaped from the sixth floor. Truly was ahead of the cop on the stairs. Why did he not see Oswald first, or at least the door closing on the second-floor stairwell?
BB
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There are whole lot of witness who returned into TSBD before DPD officer Barnett had front door entrance guarded by 3min post shots, and possibly as early as 2 min 30 sec post shots.
Some of those are office women, like Martha Reed, Sarah Staunton, Gloria Cavalry. They dont have WC testimony concerning verification of Mrs Jeraldine Reids supposed sighting of Oswald entering 2nd floor office at 2 min post shots.
Only Geneva Hine, and she has a story that makes it impossible for a post Baker/Truly encounter with Mrs Reid and Oswald, with just Mrs Reid and Oswald alone at 2 min posts shots.
There is a possible scenario time line that works with both Hine and Reid if there is meeting with Mrs Reid and Oswald at before 60 sec post shots, but i have not pinpointed Reid in Couch film yet, to verify yea no nay on the possiblility. If shes there in Couch flim, when Baker is seen running, then she could not have met Oswald before Baker/Truly do. But is if Reid is not in Couch film then there exists some possibility, given her WC testimony:
r. BELIN. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what people were doing?
Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else of people running or doing anything else?
Mrs. REID. No; because I ran into the building. I do not recall seeing anyone in the lobby. I ran up to our office.
Ive been trying find Mrs Reid in the Couch film or the stabilzed version here:
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Thanks Zeon,
That is the film of Baker I was referring to. You can see the mass confusion. This had to be seconds within the last shot, and Baker is moving fast! The only delay on the first floor was when Truly and Baker discovered the elevators unusable. But that would have been only a few seconds until they were ascending up the stairs. Yes, it's possible Oswald could have reached the 2nd-floor landing, heard voices and commotion at the bottom of the first-floor entry to the stairs, and "ducked" into the lunchroom, but this is really pushing it.
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Inconsistences and anomalies inherent in the WC sequence for Oswald movements in TSBD between 11:45 and the presumed exit at 12:34pm:
1. Oswald not taking elevator down with Charles Givens, even though Oswald had just requested elevator be sent back up just 5 minutes earlier at 11:45?
2. Oswald choosing to use 6 flights of 18 step staircases to arrive to the same destination Givens is using elevator to get to: the 1st floor. at 12:00
3. Oswald having just descended 6 flights stairs, just to tell Eddie Piper "Im going back up"? Or did he say "im going out?
4. Oswald not seen between 12:01 and 12:14 anywhere. Where was Oswald at this time?
5. Oswald seen by Carolyn Arnold at 12:15 in the 2nd floor lunchroom, while at approx the same time, Arnold Rowland is observing a man holding rifle with large scope, in the fully open SW 6th floor TSBD corner window.
This is one of biggest conflicts in the entire sequence and is not resolved, because Carolyn Arnold was not asked some specific question, such as : Did you notice the clock on the wall in the 2nd floor lunchroom. And it is uncertain if the clocks in 2nd floor lunchroom and 2nd floor offices, were in sync with the TSBD roof clock.
Nevertheless, we are left with a peculiarity at the least: Either Oswald was spotted by Carolyn Arnold 1st, in 2nd floor lunchroom, and then 2 min later, seen at the SW 6th floor corner window by Rowland. Or vis versa, Rowland spots Oswald 1st, on 6th floor, and then 2 min later, Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the lunchroom.
If Carolyn Arnold spotted Oswald 1st, what is Oswald doing in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15, if he has no idea exactly when the JFK limo will arrive?
If Arnold Rowland spotted Oswald 1st, then Oswald then leaves the 6th floor, leaves his rifle somewhere on the 6th floor, and then goes all way back down to 2nd floor lunchroom. Why do that, when it would have been much easier to hide on the 7th floor stairwell, so as to know exactly when and if, Bonnie Ray Williams leaves the 6th floor?
6. Oswald not seen between 12:17 to 12:31:30 except for one witness with dubious claim after having stated earlier could not ID the shooter, Howard Brennan.
7. 90 sec posts shots, Baker and Truly see Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom. Oswald appears calm not out breath, nor perspiring, even though presumable just having run 180 ft on 6th floor, down 4 flights of 18 step staircase and traversing 80 ft of floor landings.
Now is the 2nd major conflict: How did Oswald manage to get past Dorothy Garner near the 4th floor staircase, she having just followed about 20sec behind Adams and Styles leaving 4th flloor office within approx 10 sec post shots? It a reasonable certain probability that A&S reached the 1st floor by 60 sec post shots, otherwise, would have been seen by Baker and Truly crossing 1st floor to rear elevators by 70 sec post shots.
The only possible resolution would be that Dorothy Garner waited at least 55 sec post shots before having exited the 4th floor office. This however, would be a major conflict with her statement of having followed Adams and Styles "almost immediately" and "right behind them" and also apparently "heard them" on the staircase.
8. 2 min post shots: Oswald seen entering rear door of 2nd floor office by Mrs Robert A. Reid, BY HERSELF ALONE! No one else saw Oswald exit the front door of the 2nd floor office, or walk down the hallway, or come down either front staircase to front lobby or use rear staircase to 1st floor. Oswald was only wearing a T-shirt, did not have his brown shirt nor jacket, even though 20 secs eariler, was seen by Baker with at least a brown shirt on.
This the 3rd biggest conflict, and is almost incredible if it is even possible, given that Mrs Reid was NOT THE ONLY ONE, who returned into TSBD before 2min post shots, yet NO ONE saw Oswald except Mrs Reid???? How could Oswald have gone down either back staircase or down front staircase, and not be seen on 1st floor by anyone. How,if it takes Oswald 3 min 30 sec to even reach front lobby, having had to return to lunchroom to get his brown shirt and jacket, that Oswald is not seen, yet able to get thru guarded doors?
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The government as much as admitted no one heard or saw anyone or any activity on the rear stairway that day. This old Star-Telegram clipping indicates a "porter" on the fifth floor heard footsteps coming down from the sixth floor. Never any proof of this or the identity of the porter. As far as I know, three men were on the fifth floor and no one heard anybody walking down the stairs! I have read reports however of two of the three hiding behind boxes when police came UP the stairs.
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Apparently, per the FBI report below, Douglas Givens, not Eddie Piper was the so-called "porter" in the February Star-Telegram story. Interestingly, Givens appears to have had a pending Marijuana rap, and his testimony in the activities inside TSBD that day could prove favorable to him in the future!
BB
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Sure looks like Victoria Adams in the photo from Tony Again anyone now of something that looks like a timeline with so many players Also a lot of great graphics are seen here but I have not seen a configuration of the relevant portions of the TSBD ? It is of course 3D and I imagine it makes it more difficult I am grateful on what is shared here and I am not trying to complain by any means But for the lay public to understand the two stairways, elevator, etc and all the players it is pretty tough, without more of a physical understanding
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Its really just a logical deduction that V.Adams and Styles HAD to have reached the 1st floor not later than 65 sec post shots, otherwise, there is no way to not have been seen by Baker and Truly who by 70 sec post shots are crossing the 1st floor diagonally from leaving the front desk area, thus have potential line of sight to the rear staircases.
If it is true that Billy Lovelady and Bill Truly have just come back into TSBD, at approx. 70 sec post shots, there was a near miss meeting with Adams/Styles on 1st floor. A&S must have exited the immediate roll up door beside the West elevator approx. 65 sec post shots, while Lovelady and Shelly had entered TSBD 1st floor from the West side entrance, approx.70 sec post shots..seen by Baker and Truly near the elevators approx. 75 sec post shots. This would be the point then that Truly would have told Lovelady to guard elevators. Otherwise, its nots going to be until 8 min post shots at the earliest that Truly would see Lovelady or Shelly again, since Truly and Baker are on the TSBD roof for about 5 minutes, then stop their elevator descending from roof top, on the 4th floor for several minutes more.
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Victoria Adams, believed to be the lady in Turquoise dress with black collar, outside TSBD on November 22nd. Unfortunately, does not tell us how early she got out of the building, but by the looks of the plain-clothes officers in the doorway, photo was probably taken closer to 1 pm, before she was allowed to reenter. This is Willis #8 slide.
BB
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Jack Dougherty WC testimony suggests he had returned WEST elevator from 6th floor to 5th floor BEFORE shooting begins. He did not take it to 6th floor after that. JD took the West elevator directly from 5th floor to 1st floor just after shots fired.
Therefore the West elevator was taken DURING the ascent of B/T up the rear staircases after B/T met Oswald in 2nd floor lunchroom approx. 90 sec post shots.
If the West elevator was taken by JD just AS Baker and Truly begin their ascent up the 4th floor staircase, and the West Elevator travels at speed of 7sec/floor, then it is possible for B/T to have missed seeing the West elevator, or anyone on it,
However, it is not so readily apparent why Baker nor Truly did not notice cables moving thru the open West elevator shaft. when they reach the 5th floor just about 10 sec after being seen by Mrs Garner on 4th floor since the West elevator would still be descending to 1st floor.
And neither did Dorothy Garner nor other office women who joined her after Baker/Truly ascended to 5th floor, saw the West elevator going down just after B/T left 4th floor or anytime after B/T took 5th floor EAST elevator to the rooftop of TSBD.
There is no indication in Jack Dougherty WC WHEN exactly he returned using staircases after he supposedly spoke to Eddie Piper, except for a reference to meeting an FBI agent who asked JD to go look for Mr.Truly:
Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.
Mr. BALL - Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and .by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gum and shells.
Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the fourth floor, which I didn't find.
Mr.Ball implys JD must have been rather late, when JC actually gets to the 6th floor, this would be at least after 1:22pm then if JD does not get to 6th floor until ""after found the shotgun and shells"
And is kind of strange that BALL would say "shotgun" instead of "rifle"